Suspect SV BH Suspect #5: Power Trip

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:SV/Krookodile: POWER TRIP SUSPECT :SV/Krookodile:

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Akira 153​
Chessking345​
QT​
TTTech​
Suspect​
Suspect​
Suspect​
Suspect​

Power Trip strategies has been around and used for almost the entire generation. Despite several of the elements that were used alongside it such as Imprison being banned, it continues to remain as a potent threat and win condition for teams. In particular, Victory Dance is capable of ramping Power Trip's damage output rapidly while making it difficult for revenge-killers and Imposter users to KO back, allowing the user to trap the latter with Spirit Shackle, effectively self-Imposterproofing. This is further bolstered by Clear Amulet, which blocks Strength Sap's Attack drop, forcing the opponent to use Knock Off first, granting turns to the set up Pokemon to boost to unstoppable levels. The core of these set up win conditions is Power Trip's immense power. Reaching 140 BP with just one Simple Victory Dance, and then 260 BP with two, it is incredibly easy to snowball off from one wrong turn, where it is very possible to lose Pokemon despite having checks, as they cannot switch in safely after the Power Trip user has boosted. Even Fur Coat Dark-resistant Pokemon are not safe, with notably +4/+6/+6 Mega Tyranitar capable of OHKOing Fur Coat Zamazenta, allowing it to ludicrously 1v1 it most of the time. Of the abusers, Mega Tyranitar is the most prominent and strongest. Other Dark-types that have employed this strategy include Yveltal and Muk-Alola, both of which can pass off as defensive Pokemon to buy free turns, with the latter also resistant to would-be checks like Arceus-Fairy.

Power Trip strategies are not unstoppable, however. Notably, Prankster Haze users, albeit not the best in the current meta, render them almost completely useless. Outside of that, Fur Coat Arceus-Fairy is one of the more reliable answers, as it can comfortably 2HKO Mega Tyranitar and Yveltal with its Fairy STAB, but it loses to Muk-Alola. Topsy-Turvy or Haze on Dark-resistant or Fur Coat Pokemon like Mega Audino or Yveltal can shut all of them down as long they switch in immediately. Covert Cloak Imposter can attempt to PP stall, though it is dependent on timing, as the Imposter user must not switch out on a Power Trip. Triple Arrows Zamazenta can defeat Mega Tyranitar if it is able to get a critical hit.

These factors combined can make Power Trip strategies extremely polarizing, where it is capable of claiming KOs or outright winning in some situations, while becoming a large liability when faced with one of its harder counters being played properly. As such, Power Trip is been suspected.

Requirements:

Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Gen 9 Balanced Hackmons before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played BH before the test, full stop.)
At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact KaenSoul, Giagantic, dhelmise or a member of staff.

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900. The deadline for getting requirements will be <t:1746417540:f>

Voting:
Once the suspect period is over, everyone who has obtained reqs will be tagged. The post will then outline a process of blind voting, which will be clarified once the time arrives. For now, follow the above "Requirements" subheading to ensure that you have achieved requirements and linked your account

A supermajority (>=60%) of implement votes is required to ban Power Trip from Balanced Hackmons

TL;DR:
- The COIL value is 2900
- You must ladder on a newly-created alt of any name
- You must link your suspect alt with your smogon account using /linksmogon
- The suspect test will run conclude on <t:1746417540:f>
 
i don't play this format much but this issue of self improofed gag/mbounce/simple auto win sweepers is an issue outside of just ptrip. this happened when no retreat was banned making the strategy worse and banning ptrip will remove the issue of simple tyranitar but it seems like you are only nerfing elements of the strategy rather them removing the issue entirely. if ptrip is banned this will just mean tyran isn't an issue, if vdance is banned the strategy will still be possible with other set up moves like th and if gag is banned people will just use mbounce or soundproof. i don't really see a winning situation here or the point in individual bans like these.
 
Can the council members share some insights and rationale regarding these decisions:

1. Stored Power is not included even though only a few dark types are realistically viable (Ting-Lu, Yveltal). Although Stored Power is significantly weaker because of its typing, it's still going to OHKO stuff after two Simple Take Hearts or Nasty Plot for example.

2. Power Trip is chosen over Simple when banning Simple would free omni-boosts (No Retreat and Clangorous Soul) since those moves are likely not broken without Simple.

Just to be clear, I do support this suspect but I want to know why the council did not choose to suspect Stored Power or Simple.
 
Yourself said:
i don't play this format much but this issue of self improofed gag/mbounce/simple auto win sweepers is an issue outside of just ptrip. this happened when no retreat was banned making the strategy worse and banning ptrip will remove the issue of simple tyranitar but it seems like you are only nerfing elements of the strategy rather them removing the issue entirely. if ptrip is banned this will just mean tyran isn't an issue, if vdance is banned the strategy will still be possible with other set up moves like th and if gag is banned people will just use mbounce or soundproof. i don't really see a winning situation here or the point in individual bans like these.
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I don't know how any of these individual sentences end up correlating to the subsequent sentences, it all feels like a gigantic slippery slope.
Lumping self improofed setup all together is extremely flawed when they differ completely in interactions and counterplay, and the strengths for Power Trip sets in particular were highlighted in the OP.
As such, banning Power Trip does not "only nerf elements of the strategy" if the entire issue identified are Power Trip sets and thus a ban would remove the entire problematic strategy. Also again, it is not just Tyranitar that has been marked as an abuser as mentioned in the OP, this can be seen from not choosing to suspect Tyranitar, but instead Power Trip.
Similarly, comparing Victory Dance to Take Heart is extremely disingenuous. They are not remotely the same moves, do not have remotely the same checks considering they are literally they literally boost the opposite spectrums.
Thus, "individual bans like these" are intended to remove the actually problematic strategies from the tier while minimizing collateral. If these strategies you mention end up being problematic then we can do tiering action on them down the road, but if they are not shown to be issues right now then Power Trip is the most appropriate option for a suspect as it directly addresses only the Power Trip sets.
The Guy Who Has Many Alts said:
1. Stored Power is not included even though only a few dark types are realistically viable (Ting-Lu, Yveltal). Although Stored Power is significantly weaker because of its typing, it's still going to OHKO stuff after two Simple Take Hearts or Nasty Plot for example.
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Similar to what was mentioned above, comparing Victory Dance to Take Heart or Nasty Plot is a terrible comparison, and equally is comparing Power Trip to Stored Power in the current environment. Stored Power does not have a move that boosts SpA and Spe, has an immunity, and is on the opposite spectrum of Spirit Shackle and Strength Sap, which completely invalidates the set when it is extremely dependent on coverage (taking up a moveslot) while Shackle (mandatory for Improofing) does not provide it, and it cannot reliably selfproof anyways due to Strength Sap not lowering their damage output.
The Guy Who Has Many Alts said:
2. Power Trip is chosen over Simple when banning Simple would free omni-boosts (No Retreat and Clangorous Soul) since those moves are likely not broken without Simple.
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Just as before, Power Trip is selected as the suspect element since it is the most direct cause of the "unhealthy" strategy, and is unviable outside of it. Meanwhile, Simple has use outside of Power Trip sets that we did not deem to unhealthy currently (e.g. SimplePlot sets). Existing bans are not considered when it comes to making decisions like this, they are only considered after a tiering change. As such, even if omniboosting moves were balanced without Simple (this is in itself unlikely as in combination with Power Trip they can still create Belly Drum esque interactions where one wrong turn leads to minimum one KO), they were not a factor.
 
Antar

Thread 'COIL Explained'

Adapted from this thread.

tl;dr--COIL is a system that was developed for suspect requirement purposes. Your COIL score is a function of your GXE and the number of battles you have had on the ladder. The higher your GXE, the fewer number of battles you'll need to achieve reqs.

If you're participating in a suspect test, you may have noticed that you achieve reqs based not on your usual ladder rating, but on a mysterious score called COIL. This "mystery rating" is a system I personally designed for determining requirements for suspect tests.

In the past, determining...
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From this post i see the following:
As we move forward, when a suspect test starts, the tier leaders should be announcing not just the cutoff value but their choice of B as well (though note that these could change midway through a test, if necessary), meaning you'll be able to use that last formula to figure out how quickly you'll be able to get reqs. If B is not explicitly published, you can look it up for yourself by checking out the Pokemon Showdown source code (no guarantees that that link will stay pointing to the right lines).
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I think we'd better also know the choice of B?
 
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(ignore the spelling my brain short circuited)

i'm definitely voting ban on this because i think vd + ptrip is a lame uninteractive set where if you have one of its counters (fc spa fairy, fc resist + topsy/encore, prankhaze, or hyperspecific circle throw users that dont even win in a last mon 1v1) you just win, and if you dont your best move is hope they misplay. there is merit for banning vd instead but imo vd is perfectly fine because the best abusers can't immediately explode you with 140bp no downside stab AND be easy to improof AND beat sap at the same time. vd itself has actual use cases outside of ptrip cheese that isn't broken. imo we shouldve nuked this instead of omniboosting (which btw free it if this is banned) because we also nuked cool asf omnibooster guys like snr ghostceus for no reason

what's next? i'm up for tarrows ban and also bulwark ban if we're still on that
 
(I don't mean to sound offensive or ingorant and apolgize if it seems like it. Just geniunally asking a question.)

TLDR: Don't just ban offensive strats and leave stall untouched.

P-Trip strats are definietly powerful, but they're not unstoppable. Had a p-trip speed boost arceus dark. It was great, but it only worked sometimes. I had to take out or weaken most of the other team to guarentee the win, which isn't always possible with stall. Why ban offensive strats if you're not gonna ban some stall strats.
 
AetherLegend said:
(I don't mean to sound offensive or ingorant and apolgize if it seems like it. Just geniunally asking a question.)

TLDR: Don't just ban offensive strats and leave stall untouched.

P-Trip strats are definietly powerful, but they're not unstoppable. Had a p-trip speed boost arceus dark. It was great, but it only worked sometimes. I had to take out or weaken most of the other team to guarentee the win, which isn't always possible with stall. Why ban offensive strats if you're not gonna ban some stall strats.
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Ok so first of all, nobody claimed PTrip was unstoppable, the issue is that it's a feast or famine gameplan that either shreds right through the entire enemy team, or gets stopped stone cold by one of their very few checks. This sort of thing can severely strain the builder because you're forced to pack one of a very specific list of sets or just lose, and you can still have the check outplayed in battle, so you aren't even guaranteed a 100% safe MU for your troubles.

Second of all, this whataboutism about stall being untouched is just plain silly. Stall is probably the least viable of any teamstyle in BH, and until Ballfire's RMT, I firmly believed that stall was dead and buried, and even with that, it's still in a place where one or two meta shifts could kill it again. There's no need to kick stall while it's down, not when it's already lost almost all its tools(PHeal ban, Recovery nerf, Spec Thief dexit, Core dexit, etc), and even if stall needed looked at, that doesn't mean that PTrip shouldn't be banned, it would just give us another target for after this ban.
 
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Just like rightclicker, I despite BH, so I didn't really want to get reqs at first and was only considering doing it for TC and would probably give up if I wasn't successful quickly. But in PHCord there was a poll asking if people would do the suspect (the only option was yes) and I thought I might as well do it if other PH-ers were doing it. I didn't realise until now that only 1 other person voted.

I'm not the most experienced BH player, but I do think Power Trip is broken and I will very likely be voting Ban, BUT, I think Victory Dance is the main unhealthy element and I would rather have that banned instead.
rightclicker said:
what's next? i'm up for tarrows ban and also bulwark ban if we're still on that
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oh yeah and this too
 
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I CAST BAN THIS GARBAGE



I
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I couldnt get AI to make what I wanted it to make, so we get this instead :psycry:

This will probably be a common theme and a repeated argument regarding ptrip/simple/vdance etc, but power trip sets existing place a huge strain on teambuilding. It also frequently produces unfun play patterns.

This ban will likely end up just treating symptoms rather than resolving the problem, but its definitely better to have it gone than to have it in. Simple or Vdance are likely better targets with my monkey brain hooting and hollering at Simple. Its sort of hard to actually pull the trigger on this sort of ban or suspect test though because they are generally not overbearing outside of being used in conjunction.
 
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both losses were completely preventable. used this most of the way, of course had to whip out this for the last few games
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anyway def ban this, no one else knows how to use it cause its always a predictable dark type but like anything in the game can run it

Cobalion @ Clear Amulet
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance
- Spirit Shackle / Block
- Strength Sap
- Power Trip

this fucker is 1 potential option, hes steel so mortal isnt a help, and still beats imp perfectly fine

muk-a is another

you can also just lock into the imp speed tie idea and run truly atrocious shit like simple vd/magical torque/trip/filler weakness policy deoxys (these are probably the most overall banworthy cause theyre impossible to tell on preview and the only "counterplay" comes in the form of a 50/50)

setup is boring corny & relies on luck so most of the people who actively experiment in this game don't use it, but its super unexplored and unless you run specifically prank theres almost definitely some insane setup demon out there that kills you

edit: uhhh i dont like bh, now give me 1000 likes

edit2: astute users might remark on the fact that even after power trip is banned, the same deoxys set with wicked blow (as well as other weirdos such as vdance stored power valiant with the idea to switch in on mortal) still works. to this i offer only a thin smile and weary eyes. fuck you. you get what you fucking deserve
 
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As a qualified voter I'll vote for DNB. Here are my 3 main reasons:

Non-dedicated Counter to Power Trip exists
(Basically a summary of the "Power Trip is stoppable" discussion in previous posts, except the last paragraph)

Say you are using the most standard Power Trip abuser Simple Tyranitar-Mega@Clear Amulet, this calc show that every Dark-resist Pokemon with Topsy-Turvy can come in on the first turn you Victory Dances and uses Topsy-Turvy to stop your sweep attempt:

+2 252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega: 201-237 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

And since Tyranitar-Mega has no other effective sets, all you need is a Dark-resist, or Fur Coat, or Unaware mon with Topsy-Turvy, and come in at Tyranitar's first dance. Which is neither rare nor hard based on my experience of the suspect ladder.

However you may argue that there can be non-Tyranitar Simple VD Shackle PowerTrip sets. And they can possibly get a second VD chance and then be unwallable, by this calc:

+4 252+ Atk Calyrex-Ice Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega: 374-440 (91.2 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Players should recall that there exists a triangle of restriction to setup attackers whose 3 vertices are bulky Topsy-Turvy/Phazing, Imposter, and (theoratically) Prankster Hazer. To bypass Imposter, the Power Trip abuser itself has to be a Dark-resist, which by a great extend limits the pool of abusers. Surely there are still some very deceptive ones like Zamazenta. So I'm going to resolve them in the following 2 parts.

Power Trip is NOT the Key Issue

For a setup attacker set to be considered problematic it should at least break 2 of the 3 vertices of the restriction triangle and for the previously discussed one they are bulky Topsy-Turvy and Imposter. That inevitably limits the flexibility of such sets. And the main thing I wanna stress here is: Power Trip must be paired with Simple to work well. What if Simple is the actual problem rather than Power Trip? Accidentally I really used the following 2 setup sweeper sets through this suspect run. Maybe we can see something in their comparison:
Zamazenta @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cotton Guard
- Take Heart
- Body Press
- Stored Power
Tyranitar-Mega @ Clear Amulet
Ability: Dry Skin
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Victory Dance
- Power Trip
- Spirit Shackle
- Strength Sap
Set 1 is a deceptive Simple setup Zamazenta without Power Trip, which can easily get 2 setup turns and do decent damage to bulky Topsy-Turvy mons like this:

+6 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega: 322-379 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Zamazenta Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 241-284 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Zamazenta Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 566-666 (116.9 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Set 1 really kills in many of its battles despite unable to beat Imposter. An example here although not a suspect replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...46843706-b3d8i00sjlbyajgycko7hyvqh8hit5spw?p2

However Set 2, being exactly the same to the most popular Power Trip set except Ability, has 0 kills through the whole run except a random low ladder player sending their Imposter on it. The most thing it does is improofing a teammate, VD once, and then get forced out because of insufficient Stat stages. Furthermore, I haven't see any discussions on non-standard moveset of Power Trip users. So I assume this is literally how any Power Trip users will achieve without Simple: Nothing.

Anyway Power Trip is just a second floor stacked on the basement of Stat stages. If we ban its basement it can't do anything on its own. To be concrete, the fastest consistent speed to get Stat stages without simple is 3 stages per turn. And Power Trip will be of 140 BP after 2 turns in that case. It'll be a downright joke if we are going to ban a 140 BP move because the meta cannot deal with it when its user is at +2.

"But... I just wanna end the hell of dealing with setup attackers. Even though Power Trip isn't the most 'correct' thing to ban, it at least ends the hell isn't it?" I heard voices similar to this from people. We have council to make correct decisions and to lead the meta to the right direction. If Power Trip is not the most correct thing to ban, it should not be suspected at all. And if the suspect itself is wrong, we should prevent anything from being changed by this wrong suspect.

That's not the end of the story. Even though Power Trip does finally get banned, will we get to the heaven where setup is never an issue at all? My answer is a solid NO. Reasons are in the 3rd part, as follows.

Extinction of Prankster Hazers Shows the Structural Problem

As mentioned in the original post, "Notably, Prankster Haze users, albeit not the best in the current meta, render them almost completely useless". And now we are suspecting Power Trip, which also becomes completely useless against Prankster Haze users. We all know that something is suspected because that thing is broken. So here comes the paradox: If Power Trip is broken, then Prankster Haze is not completely useless, and it should be used more in the meta; If Power Trip is not broken, then it should not be suspected.

The thing is, the meta is not an immutable meta, but a changing meta. Happily, I already see more usages of Topsy-Turvy or Prankster Hazers than I'd imagine in mid-low ladder. However high ladder players seem to resist most changes. Hence the downward spiral of banning setup stuff goes infinitely: Some setup stuff becomes very good -> Let's ban it! -> Setup becomes weaker for a while -> People pay less attention to deal with setup -> New setup stuff becomes very good -> Let's ban it! -> ... And in the world line where Power Trip eventually gets banned, the next thing will definitely be Simple. We will easily lose both of them, then Spicy Extract, then Victory Dance, and finally Take Heart.

However, there could've been an upward spiral to stop us from losing all fun playing Gen 9 Balanced Hackmons: Some setup stuff becomes very good -> People spare their attention for anti-setup utilities -> Fewer FurScales, weaker setup attackers, increased diversity, and better meta -> Next Fantasm. It might be a bit late for us to step into this spiral now, since it should've started even before No Retreat's quickban, but still, it's better than never.

TL; DR:
1. Power Trip is generally stoppable.
2. If we have to ban something, Simple is the thing to ban, not Power Trip.
3. We should not ban things now. Because that will plunge the meta into a vicious circle.
 
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Thanks Akira 153 for the team!

Power Trip users are obnoxious to face and I find it good that the move is the center of attention for now. If the next big thing comes up and people switch their builds to adapt to it, call it tier development or not it will be a good thing. For me nothing changed much during Power Trip's presence.
 
Im rusted out as fuck and hadnt played in a while but had to cast my vote on this cuz BH
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The only loss was to a guy packing 3 simple vdance power trip guys dancing on my team.
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I have not seen a single use of power trip in my entire run where I thought "hey this is a cool implementation / it is a net positive to the metagame"

Im probably voting ban.

Im happy to have played the ladder, I enjoyed it quite a bit. I missed having true fun with BH. Seems less centralized than last time I played, maybe OMPL will re-centralize it.
 
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