everyone ran it vs me in winter ssnl lol it was so annoying
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Metagame SV Draft League General Discussion
- Thread starter Hacker
- Start date
Genius Cup data
| Sprite | Pokemon | Times Drafted |
| :Palkia-Origin: | Palkia-Origin | 15 |
| :Solgaleo: | Solgaleo | 15 |
| :Dragapult: | Dragapult | 15 |
| :Ponyta: | Ponyta | 14 |
| :Great Tusk: | Great Tusk | 14 |
| :Iron Valiant: | Iron Valiant | 14 |
| :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: | Ogerpon-Hearthflame | 14 |
| :Chien-Pao: | Chien-Pao | 13 |
| :Terapagos: | Terapagos | 13 |
| :Reshiram: | Reshiram | 12 |
| :Zamazenta-Crowned: | Zamazenta-Crowned | 12 |
| :Ting-Lu: | Ting-Lu | 12 |
| :Shaymin-Sky: | Shaymin-Sky | 11 |
| :Dialga-Origin: | Dialga-Origin | 10 |
| :Landorus-Therian: | Landorus-Therian | 10 |
| :Corviknight: | Corviknight | 10 |
| :Slowking-galar: | Galarian Slowking | 9 |
| :Gliscor: | Gliscor | 9 |
| :Rillaboom: | Rillaboom | 9 |
| :Regieleki: | Regieleki | 9 |
| :Meowscarada: | Meowscarada | 9 |
| :Ogerpon-Wellspring: | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 9 |
| :Weezing-galar: | Galarian Weezing | 8 |
| :Swalot: | Swalot | 8 |
| :Spectrier: | Spectrier | 8 |
| :Sneasler: | Sneasler | 8 |
| :Iron Treads: | Iron Treads | 8 |
| :Jirachi: | Jirachi | 7 |
| :Volcarona: | Volcarona | 7 |
| :Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon | 7 |
| :Palafin: | Palafin | 7 |
| :Gholdengo: | Gholdengo | 7 |
| :Ogerpon: | Ogerpon | 7 |
| :Tentacruel: | Tentacruel | 6 |
| :Muk: | Muk | 6 |
| :Donphan: | Donphan | 6 |
| :Garchomp: | Garchomp | 6 |
| :Tornadus-Therian: | Tornadus-Therian | 6 |
| :Kyurem: | Kyurem | 6 |
| :Greninja: | Greninja | 6 |
| :Alcremie: | Alcremie | 6 |
| :Skeledirge: | Skeledirge | 6 |
| :Annihilape: | Annihilape | 6 |
| :Chi-Yu: | Chi-Yu | 6 |
| :Articuno: | Articuno | 5 |
| :Zapdos: | Zapdos | 5 |
| :Scizor: | Scizor | 5 |
| :Torkoal: | Torkoal | 5 |
| :Deoxys-Speed: | Deoxys-Speed | 5 |
| :Rotom-Heat: | Rotom-Heat | 5 |
| :Samurott-hisui: | Hisuian Samurott | 5 |
| :Cryogonal: | Cryogonal | 5 |
| :Diancie: | Diancie | 5 |
| :Ribombee: | Ribombee | 5 |
| :Tinkaton: | Tinkaton | 5 |
| :Roaring Moon: | Roaring Moon | 5 |
| :Raging Bolt: | Raging Bolt | 5 |
| :Moltres: | Moltres | 4 |
| :Lanturn: | Lanturn | 4 |
| :Azumarill: | Azumarill | 4 |
| :Gligar: | Gligar | 4 |
| :Swampert: | Swampert | 4 |
| :Masquerain: | Masquerain | 4 |
| :Rotom-Wash: | Rotom-Wash | 4 |
| :Lilligant-hisui: | Hisuian Lilligant | 4 |
| :Zoroark-hisui: | Hisuian Zoroark | 4 |
| :Tornadus: | Tornadus-Incarnate | 4 |
| :Carbink: | Carbink | 4 |
| :Primarina: | Primarina | 4 |
| :Oricorio: | Oricorio | 4 |
| :Araquanid: | Araquanid | 4 |
| :Tsareena: | Tsareena | 4 |
| :Comfey: | Comfey | 4 |
| :Frosmoth: | Frosmoth | 4 |
| :Urshifu: | Urshifu-Single-Strike | 4 |
| :Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 4 |
| :Enamorus-Therian: | Enamorus-Therian | 4 |
| :Spidops: | Spidops | 4 |
| :Lokix: | Lokix | 4 |
| :Grafaiai: | Grafaiai | 4 |
| :Glimmora: | Glimmora | 4 |
| :Kingambit: | Kingambit | 4 |
| :Archaludon: | Archaludon | 4 |
| :Gouging Fire: | Gouging Fire | 4 |
| :Iron Crown: | Iron Crown | 4 |
| :Sandslash: | Sandslash | 3 |
| :Persian-alola: | Alolan Persian | 3 |
| :Gengar: | Gengar | 3 |
| :Weezing: | Weezing | 3 |
| :Gyarados: | Gyarados | 3 |
| :Ditto: | Ditto | 3 |
| :Vaporeon: | Vaporeon | 3 |
| :Typhlosion-hisui: | Hisuian Typhlosion | 3 |
| :Misdreavus: | Misdreavus | 3 |
| :Pelipper: | Pelipper | 3 |
| :Illumise: | Illumise | 3 |
| :Flygon: | Flygon | 3 |
| :Metagross: | Metagross | 3 |
| :Bastiodon: | Bastiodon | 3 |
| :Mesprit: | Mesprit | 3 |
| :Heatran: | Heatran | 3 |
| :Darkrai: | Darkrai | 3 |
| :Excadrill: | Excadrill | 3 |
| :Alomomola: | Alomomola | 3 |
| :Braviary-hisui: | Hisuian Braviary | 3 |
| :Hydreigon: | Hydreigon | 3 |
| :Cobalion: | Cobalion | 3 |
| :Thundurus-Therian: | Thundurus-Therian | 3 |
| :Landorus: | Landorus-Incarnate | 3 |
| :Avalugg-hisui: | Hisuian Avalugg | 3 |
| :Vikavolt: | Vikavolt | 3 |
| :Lurantis: | Lurantis | 3 |
| :Komala: | Komala | 3 |
| :Thwackey: | Thwackey | 3 |
| :Cinderace: | Cinderace | 3 |
| :Pincurchin: | Pincurchin | 3 |
| :Enamorus: | Enamorus-Incarnate | 3 |
| :Squawkabilly: | Squawkabilly | 3 |
| :Espathra: | Espathra | 3 |
| :Cyclizar: | Cyclizar | 3 |
| :Glimmet: | Glimmet | 3 |
| :Clodsire: | Clodsire | 3 |
| :Sandy Shocks: | Sandy Shocks | 3 |
| :Walking Wake: | Walking Wake | 3 |
| :Dipplin: | Dipplin | 3 |
| :Okidogi: | Okidogi | 3 |
| :Munkidori: | Munkidori | 3 |
| :Pecharunt: | Pecharunt | 3 |
| :Blastoise: | Blastoise | 2 |
| :Pikachu: | Pikachu | 2 |
| :Clefable: | Clefable | 2 |
| :Vileplume: | Vileplume | 2 |
| :Cloyster: | Cloyster | 2 |
| :Tauros-paldea: | Paldean Tauros | 2 |
| :Zapdos-galar: | Galarian Zapdos | 2 |
| :Umbreon: | Umbreon | 2 |
| :Murkrow: | Murkrow | 2 |
| :Slowking: | Slowking | 2 |
| :Forretress: | Forretress | 2 |
| :Qwilfish: | Qwilfish | 2 |
| :Qwilfish-hisui: | Hisuian Qwilfish | 2 |
| :Skarmory: | Skarmory | 2 |
| :Smeargle: | Smeargle | 2 |
| :Raikou: | Raikou | 2 |
| :Volbeat: | Volbeat | 2 |
| :Milotic: | Milotic | 2 |
| :Regice: | Regice | 2 |
| :Empoleon: | Empoleon | 2 |
| :Luxray: | Luxray | 2 |
| :Rampardos: | Rampardos | 2 |
| :Gastrodon: | Gastrodon | 2 |
| :Drifblim: | Drifblim | 2 |
| :Mismagius: | Mismagius | 2 |
| :Skuntank: | Skuntank | 2 |
| :Weavile: | Weavile | 2 |
| :Uxie: | Uxie | 2 |
| :Whimsicott: | Whimsicott | 2 |
| :Galvantula: | Galvantula | 2 |
| :Eelektross: | Eelektross | 2 |
| :Haxorus: | Haxorus | 2 |
| :Beartic: | Beartic | 2 |
| :Bisharp: | Bisharp | 2 |
| :Braviary: | Braviary | 2 |
| :Mandibuzz: | Mandibuzz | 2 |
| :Virizion: | Virizion | 2 |
| :Thundurus: | Thundurus-Incarnate | 2 |
| :Keldeo: | Keldeo | 2 |
| :Sylveon: | Sylveon | 2 |
| :Klefki: | Klefki | 2 |
| :Volcanion: | Volcanion | 2 |
| :Charjabug: | Charjabug | 2 |
| :Cutiefly: | Cutiefly | 2 |
| :Toxapex: | Toxapex | 2 |
| :Minior: | Minior | 2 |
| :Mimikyu: | Mimikyu | 2 |
| :Necrozma: | Necrozma | 2 |
| :Sandaconda: | Sandaconda | 2 |
| :Hattrem: | Hattrem | 2 |
| :Hatterene: | Hatterene | 2 |
| :Indeedee: | Indeedee | 2 |
| :Basculegion: | Basculegion | 2 |
| :Overqwil: | Overqwil | 2 |
| :Quaquaval: | Quaquaval | 2 |
| :Maushold: | Maushold | 2 |
| :Dachsbun: | Dachsbun | 2 |
| :Arboliva: | Arboliva | 2 |
| :Garganacl: | Garganacl | 2 |
| :Ceruledge: | Ceruledge | 2 |
| :Scream Tail: | Scream Tail | 2 |
| :Brute Bonnet: | Brute Bonnet | 2 |
| :Iron Bundle: | Iron Bundle | 2 |
| :Iron Moth: | Iron Moth | 2 |
| :Baxcalibur: | Baxcalibur | 2 |
| :Iron Leaves: | Iron Leaves | 2 |
| :Sinistcha: | Sinistcha | 2 |
| :Fezandipiti: | Fezandipiti | 2 |
| :Ogerpon-Cornerstone: | Ogerpon-Cornerstone | 2 |
| :Venusaur: | Venusaur | 1 |
| :Squirtle: | Squirtle | 1 |
| :Arbok: | Arbok | 1 |
| :Sandslash-alola: | Alolan Sandslash | 1 |
| :Vulpix: | Vulpix | 1 |
| :Vulpix-alola: | Alolan Vulpix | 1 |
| :Wigglytuff: | Wigglytuff | 1 |
| :Gloom: | Gloom | 1 |
| :Dugtrio-alola: | Alolan Dugtrio | 1 |
| :Arcanine-hisui: | Hisuian Arcanine | 1 |
| :Tentacool: | Tentacool | 1 |
| :Slowbro-galar: | Galarian Slowbro | 1 |
| :Dewgong: | Dewgong | 1 |
| :Haunter: | Haunter | 1 |
| :Electrode: | Electrode | 1 |
| :Electabuzz: | Electabuzz | 1 |
| :Tauros: | Tauros | 1 |
| :Tauros-paldea-Aqua: | Paldean Tauros Aqua | 1 |
| :Lapras: | Lapras | 1 |
| :Jolteon: | Jolteon | 1 |
| :Dragonite: | Dragonite | 1 |
| :Mew: | Mew | 1 |
| :Ampharos: | Ampharos | 1 |
| :Jumpluff: | Jumpluff | 1 |
| :Espeon: | Espeon | 1 |
| :Dunsparce: | Dunsparce | 1 |
| :Granbull: | Granbull | 1 |
| :Ursaring: | Ursaring | 1 |
| :Delibird: | Delibird | 1 |
| :Porygon2: | Porygon2 | 1 |
| :Hitmontop: | Hitmontop | 1 |
| :Blissey: | Blissey | 1 |
| :Tyranitar: | Tyranitar | 1 |
| :Sceptile: | Sceptile | 1 |
| :Blaziken: | Blaziken | 1 |
| :Mightyena: | Mightyena | 1 |
| :Ludicolo: | Ludicolo | 1 |
| :Shiftry: | Shiftry | 1 |
| :Trapinch: | Trapinch | 1 |
| :Cacturne: | Cacturne | 1 |
| :Altaria: | Altaria | 1 |
| :Crawdaunt: | Crawdaunt | 1 |
| :Deoxys-Defense: | Deoxys-Defense | 1 |
| :Kricketune: | Kricketune | 1 |
| :Pachirisu: | Pachirisu | 1 |
| :Floatzel: | Floatzel | 1 |
| :Ambipom: | Ambipom | 1 |
| :Munchlax: | Munchlax | 1 |
| :Abomasnow: | Abomasnow | 1 |
| :Magnezone: | Magnezone | 1 |
| :Glaceon: | Glaceon | 1 |
| :Mamoswine: | Mamoswine | 1 |
| :Probopass: | Probopass | 1 |
| :Rotom-Frost: | Rotom-Frost | 1 |
| :Rotom-Mow: | Rotom-Mow | 1 |
| :Azelf: | Azelf | 1 |
| :Servine: | Servine | 1 |
| :Leavanny: | Leavanny | 1 |
| :Cottonee: | Cottonee | 1 |
| :Cinccino: | Cinccino | 1 |
| :Gothorita: | Gothorita | 1 |
| :Duosion: | Duosion | 1 |
| :Reuniclus: | Reuniclus | 1 |
| :Meloetta: | Meloetta | 1 |
| :Delphox: | Delphox | 1 |
| :Frogadier: | Frogadier | 1 |
| :Talonflame: | Talonflame | 1 |
| :Florges: | Florges | 1 |
| :Meowstic: | Meowstic | 1 |
| :Clawitzer: | Clawitzer | 1 |
| :Hawlucha: | Hawlucha | 1 |
| :Dedenne: | Dedenne | 1 |
| :Noivern: | Noivern | 1 |
| :Hoopa-Unbound: | Hoopa-Unbound | 1 |
| :Decidueye: | Decidueye | 1 |
| :Decidueye-hisui: | Hisuian Decidueye | 1 |
| :Incineroar: | Incineroar | 1 |
| :Toucannon: | Toucannon | 1 |
| :Lycanroc-Midnight: | Lycanroc-Midnight | 1 |
| :Greedent: | Greedent | 1 |
| :Coalossal: | Coalossal | 1 |
| :Flapple: | Flapple | 1 |
| :Cramorant: | Cramorant | 1 |
| :Morgrem: | Morgrem | 1 |
| :Grimmsnarl: | Grimmsnarl | 1 |
| :Stonjourner: | Stonjourner | 1 |
| :Eiscue: | Eiscue | 1 |
| :Duraludon: | Duraludon | 1 |
| :Drakloak: | Drakloak | 1 |
| :Zarude: | Zarude | 1 |
| :Glastrier: | Glastrier | 1 |
| :Calyrex: | Calyrex | 1 |
| :Kleavor: | Kleavor | 1 |
| :Ursaluna: | Ursaluna | 1 |
| :Crocalor: | Crocalor | 1 |
| :Quaxwell: | Quaxwell | 1 |
| :Bellibolt: | Bellibolt | 1 |
| :Kilowattrel: | Kilowattrel | 1 |
| :Mabosstiff: | Mabosstiff | 1 |
| :Brambleghast: | Brambleghast | 1 |
| :Toedscruel: | Toedscruel | 1 |
| :Klawf: | Klawf | 1 |
| :Tinkatuff: | Tinkatuff | 1 |
| :Wugtrio: | Wugtrio | 1 |
| :Revavroom: | Revavroom | 1 |
| :Tatsugiri: | Tatsugiri | 1 |
| :Iron Hands: | Iron Hands | 1 |
| :Iron Jugulis: | Iron Jugulis | 1 |
| :Iron Thorns: | Iron Thorns | 1 |
| :Hydrapple: | Hydrapple | 1 |
| Sprite | Pokemon | Times Tera'd | Tera % |
| :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: | Ogerpon-Hearthflame | 14 | 100.00% |
| :Dragapult: | Dragapult | 10 | 66.67% |
| :Regieleki: | Regieleki | 9 | 100.00% |
| :Ogerpon-Wellspring: | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 7 | 77.78% |
| :Garchomp: | Garchomp | 6 | 100.00% |
| :Volcarona: | Volcarona | 6 | 85.71% |
| :Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon | 6 | 85.71% |
| :Ogerpon: | Ogerpon | 6 | 85.71% |
| :Articuno: | Articuno | 5 | 100.00% |
| :Alcremie: | Alcremie | 5 | 83.33% |
| :Sneasler: | Sneasler | 5 | 62.50% |
| :Annihilape: | Annihilape | 5 | 83.33% |
| :Shaymin-Sky: | Shaymin-Sky | 4 | 36.36% |
| :Diancie: | Diancie | 4 | 80.00% |
| :Comfey: | Comfey | 4 | 100.00% |
| :Corviknight: | Corviknight | 4 | 40.00% |
| :Frosmoth: | Frosmoth | 4 | 100.00% |
| :Skeledirge: | Skeledirge | 4 | 66.67% |
| :Gyarados: | Gyarados | 3 | 100.00% |
| :Misdreavus: | Misdreavus | 3 | 100.00% |
| :Swalot: | Swalot | 3 | 37.50% |
| :Deoxys-Speed: | Deoxys-Speed | 3 | 60.00% |
| :Bastiodon: | Bastiodon | 3 | 100.00% |
| :Gliscor: | Gliscor | 3 | 33.33% |
| :Darkrai: | Darkrai | 3 | 100.00% |
| :Zoroark-hisui: | Hisuian Zoroark | 3 | 75.00% |
| :Braviary-hisui: | Hisuian Braviary | 3 | 100.00% |
| :Hydreigon: | Hydreigon | 3 | 100.00% |
| :Kyurem: | Kyurem | 3 | 50.00% |
| :Greninja: | Greninja | 3 | 50.00% |
| :Urshifu: | Urshifu-Single-Strike | 3 | 75.00% |
| :Enamorus-Therian: | Enamorus-Therian | 3 | 75.00% |
| :Espathra: | Espathra | 3 | 100.00% |
| :Gholdengo: | Gholdengo | 3 | 42.86% |
| :Chi-Yu: | Chi-Yu | 3 | 50.00% |
| :Dipplin: | Dipplin | 3 | 100.00% |
| :Iron Crown: | Iron Crown | 3 | 75.00% |
| :Ditto: | Ditto | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Typhlosion-hisui: | Hisuian Typhlosion | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Torkoal: | Torkoal | 2 | 40.00% |
| :Flygon: | Flygon | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Milotic: | Milotic | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Regice: | Regice | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Luxray: | Luxray | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Drifblim: | Drifblim | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Heatran: | Heatran | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Lilligant-hisui: | Hisuian Lilligant | 2 | 50.00% |
| :Haxorus: | Haxorus | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Bisharp: | Bisharp | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Tornadus: | Tornadus-Incarnate | 2 | 50.00% |
| :Thundurus: | Thundurus-Incarnate | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Landorus-Therian: | Landorus-Therian | 2 | 20.00% |
| :Carbink: | Carbink | 2 | 50.00% |
| :Avalugg-hisui: | Hisuian Avalugg | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Vikavolt: | Vikavolt | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Ribombee: | Ribombee | 2 | 40.00% |
| :Mimikyu: | Mimikyu | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Necrozma: | Necrozma | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Thwackey: | Thwackey | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 2 | 50.00% |
| :Enamorus: | Enamorus-Incarnate | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Spidops: | Spidops | 2 | 50.00% |
| :Lokix: | Lokix | 2 | 50.00% |
| :Garganacl: | Garganacl | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Ceruledge: | Ceruledge | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Clodsire: | Clodsire | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Kingambit: | Kingambit | 2 | 50.00% |
| :Walking Wake: | Walking Wake | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Sinistcha: | Sinistcha | 2 | 100.00% |
| :Okidogi: | Okidogi | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Munkidori: | Munkidori | 2 | 66.67% |
| :Archaludon: | Archaludon | 2 | 50.00% |
| :Venusaur: | Venusaur | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Pikachu: | Pikachu | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Sandslash: | Sandslash | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Sandslash-alola: | Alolan Sandslash | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Persian-alola: | Alolan Persian | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Haunter: | Haunter | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Electrode: | Electrode | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Weezing: | Weezing | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Weezing:-galar | Galarian Weezing | 1 | 12.50% |
| :Electabuzz: | Electabuzz | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Tauros-paldea-Aqua: | Paldean Tauros Aqua | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Jolteon: | Jolteon | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Moltres: | Moltres | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Lanturn: | Lanturn | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Ampharos: | Ampharos | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Azumarill: | Azumarill | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Slowking-galar: | Galarian Slowking | 1 | 11.11% |
| :Forretress: | Forretress | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Gligar: | Gligar | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Scizor: | Scizor | 1 | 20.00% |
| :Ursaring: | Ursaring | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Porygon2: | Porygon2 | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Smeargle: | Smeargle | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Raikou: | Raikou | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Sceptile: | Sceptile | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Blaziken: | Blaziken | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Ludicolo: | Ludicolo | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Shiftry: | Shiftry | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Masquerain: | Masquerain | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Illumise: | Illumise | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Altaria: | Altaria | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Crawdaunt: | Crawdaunt | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Kricketune: | Kricketune | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Rampardos: | Rampardos | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Pachirisu: | Pachirisu | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Gastrodon: | Gastrodon | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Mismagius: | Mismagius | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Magnezone: | Magnezone | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Glaceon: | Glaceon | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Mamoswine: | Mamoswine | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Probopass: | Probopass | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Rotom-Wash: | Rotom-Wash | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Rotom-Frost: | Rotom-Frost | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Rotom-Mow: | Rotom-Mow | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Mesprit: | Mesprit | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Azelf: | Azelf | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Servine: | Servine | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Excadrill: | Excadrill | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Gothorita: | Gothorita | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Duosion: | Duosion | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Reuniclus: | Reuniclus | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Galvantula: | Galvantula | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Eelektross: | Eelektross | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Beartic: | Beartic | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Cryogonal: | Cryogonal | 1 | 20.00% |
| :Tornadus-Therian: | Tornadus-Therian | 1 | 16.67% |
| :Thundurus-Therian: | Thundurus-Therian | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Keldeo: | Keldeo | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Frogadier: | Frogadier | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Meowstic: | Meowstic | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Sylveon: | Sylveon | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Hawlucha: | Hawlucha | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Dedenne: | Dedenne | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Volcanion: | Volcanion | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Incineroar: | Incineroar | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Oricorio: | Oricorio | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Cutiefly: | Cutiefly | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Lycanroc-Midnight: | Lycanroc-Midnight | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Araquanid: | Araquanid | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Tsareena: | Tsareena | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Minior: | Minior | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Komala: | Komala | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Rillaboom: | Rillaboom | 1 | 11.11% |
| :Coalossal: | Coalossal | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Flapple: | Flapple | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Hatterene: | Hatterene | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Pincurchin: | Pincurchin | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Eiscue: | Eiscue | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Drakloak: | Drakloak | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Zarude: | Zarude | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Calyrex: | Calyrex | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Overqwil: | Overqwil | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Crocalor: | Crocalor | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Quaxwell: | Quaxwell | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Maushold: | Maushold | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Arboliva: | Arboliva | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Grafaiai: | Grafaiai | 1 | 25.00% |
| :Toedscruel: | Toedscruel | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Klawf: | Klawf | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Wugtrio: | Wugtrio | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Glimmet: | Glimmet | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Tatsugiri: | Tatsugiri | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Sandy Shocks: | Sandy Shocks | 1 | 33.33% |
| :Iron Bundle: | Iron Bundle | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Iron Moth: | Iron Moth | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Iron Thorns: | Iron Thorns | 1 | 100.00% |
| :Iron Leaves: | Iron Leaves | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Ogerpon-Cornerstone: | Ogerpon-Cornerstone | 1 | 50.00% |
| :Raging Bolt: | Raging Bolt | 1 | 20.00% |
| :Pecharunt: | Pecharunt | 1 | 33.33% |
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Murkrow beating Mew is crazy(my fault, since i drafted both)
Gm. Today I'm going to stir up discussion that may seem crazy at first, but I think has a lot of merit. If you've never considered this as a real possibility before, try to read this with an open mind. The TL;DR is we should test a Tera Banned Lugia in SV Draft.
:xy/lugia:
Yes, the perennial Uber that, as far as I'm aware, has never been seriously allowed in a non-Ubers draft setting, but Gen 9 has changed a lot for the mon. Pretty much every Gen 9 mechanic/movepool update has made Lugia worse to the point when I'm not even convinced it would be a top 5 mon on the board if it were freed.
First, the direct nerfs Lugia got this gen: It no longer has access to Thunder Wave, Toxic, or Defog. This already makes it worse as a utility mon, but the bigger deal is that without Toxic, bulky Lugia sets lack a consistent way to make progress. It doesn't have any pivoting moves, Knock Off, or hazards, so all it can do utility wise is Whirlwind/set up screens.
There's also some indirect nerfs, like Recover PP being halved is just a strict downgrade that hurts Lugia's staying power. There's also the lack of hazard removal, and for a rocks-weak mon like Lugia that is also weak to Knock Off, this can make it inconsistent in a defensive wall role.
Obviously, though, Lugia doesn't have to be a do-nothing fat mon. It's got access to Calm Mind and it's a fairly potent setup sweeper. It can even use Weakness Policy combined with Multiscale and its many weaknesses to boost further. CM is the main reason I see that Lugia has never been allowed, but the SV meta is more than equipped to deal with it. This is mainly due to the wide distribution of Encore. Lugia does have high Speed, but it's not fast enough to outpace Encore users like Iron Valiant and Iron Bundle. Lugia also isn't strong enough for slow Encore to not be an option either. Additionally, I would say the majority of builds already have an Encore user on their team since it's a consistent form of counterplay vs Tera Captains.
Speaking of Tera, that's another major drawback for a Tera Banned Lugia. Lugia's STAB combo is walled by Steel-types, and its best way of hitting Steels is with a non-STAB 90 base Attack/Sp. Attack Earthquake/Earth Power. This is pitifully weak, which means Tera Steel mons could exploit it pretty easily. It also doesn't have ANY super effective coverage vs Dark-types, so it's forced to rely on Aeroblast on them. Aeroblast is a good move, but it's nothing crazy for Gen 9 standards.
I've only talked about typical Lugia sets that you would see on the Ubers ladder, but this is Draft, and Lugia must have a bunch of tricks up its sleeve to find something that breaks it, right? Well, uh, I've been looking, and I just can't see it. It doesn't have access to Stored Power or a means of boosting speed besides Scale Shot. Most of its movepool is just coverage options that won't be that strong off 90 offenses and without STAB.
Okay, so, we've now established how Lugia is a lot worse this generation. We now must ask ourselves the question: why would we even want to go through the effort of legalizing a tera banned Lugia? Well, I think it has two traits that could be healthy additions to the meta:
1. It's a very strong mon into hyper offense. SV is the most offense-heavy draft generation we've ever seen, with balance builds becoming pretty much unviable. Lugia provides another much-needed defensive glue mon to support bulkier builds. It lost most of its utility as I already said, but it is a very good stopgap Pokemon with Multiscale + Whirlwind.
2. The 110 Speed tier. Ever since Ogerpon was added to SV, 110 has been one of the most important speed tiers in the meta, and there aren't that many non-Ogerpon viable options at or slightly above this speed tier. Lugia would be another option to to fill this important speed tier for draft teams, which would be very appreciated to help diversify team structures.
There are definitely counterarguments against allowing Lugia. Maybe it ends up being too bulky in practice and shuts down too many offensive structures, or maybe I'm underestimating its Calm Mind sets since Toxic is also not widely distributed anymore. It's never been allowed before, so it could just be a lot better in practice than I currently see on paper. Because of this, I would err on the side of caution and legalize a tera-banned Lugia at 19/18 points and see how it performs. If it's too much, then it can just go back to the ban list. If it isn't, though, then I think it could be a legitimately healthy addition to the meta.
I made this post mostly to stir up some discussion since it'll be a while before a new Smogon SV tour starts with an updated draft board. Maybe a league or something that's starting up soon could test it out in the meantime. If not, though, I will return to advocate for a Lugia test in the next winter seasonal.
:xy/lugia:
Yes, the perennial Uber that, as far as I'm aware, has never been seriously allowed in a non-Ubers draft setting, but Gen 9 has changed a lot for the mon. Pretty much every Gen 9 mechanic/movepool update has made Lugia worse to the point when I'm not even convinced it would be a top 5 mon on the board if it were freed.
First, the direct nerfs Lugia got this gen: It no longer has access to Thunder Wave, Toxic, or Defog. This already makes it worse as a utility mon, but the bigger deal is that without Toxic, bulky Lugia sets lack a consistent way to make progress. It doesn't have any pivoting moves, Knock Off, or hazards, so all it can do utility wise is Whirlwind/set up screens.
There's also some indirect nerfs, like Recover PP being halved is just a strict downgrade that hurts Lugia's staying power. There's also the lack of hazard removal, and for a rocks-weak mon like Lugia that is also weak to Knock Off, this can make it inconsistent in a defensive wall role.
Obviously, though, Lugia doesn't have to be a do-nothing fat mon. It's got access to Calm Mind and it's a fairly potent setup sweeper. It can even use Weakness Policy combined with Multiscale and its many weaknesses to boost further. CM is the main reason I see that Lugia has never been allowed, but the SV meta is more than equipped to deal with it. This is mainly due to the wide distribution of Encore. Lugia does have high Speed, but it's not fast enough to outpace Encore users like Iron Valiant and Iron Bundle. Lugia also isn't strong enough for slow Encore to not be an option either. Additionally, I would say the majority of builds already have an Encore user on their team since it's a consistent form of counterplay vs Tera Captains.
Speaking of Tera, that's another major drawback for a Tera Banned Lugia. Lugia's STAB combo is walled by Steel-types, and its best way of hitting Steels is with a non-STAB 90 base Attack/Sp. Attack Earthquake/Earth Power. This is pitifully weak, which means Tera Steel mons could exploit it pretty easily. It also doesn't have ANY super effective coverage vs Dark-types, so it's forced to rely on Aeroblast on them. Aeroblast is a good move, but it's nothing crazy for Gen 9 standards.
I've only talked about typical Lugia sets that you would see on the Ubers ladder, but this is Draft, and Lugia must have a bunch of tricks up its sleeve to find something that breaks it, right? Well, uh, I've been looking, and I just can't see it. It doesn't have access to Stored Power or a means of boosting speed besides Scale Shot. Most of its movepool is just coverage options that won't be that strong off 90 offenses and without STAB.
Okay, so, we've now established how Lugia is a lot worse this generation. We now must ask ourselves the question: why would we even want to go through the effort of legalizing a tera banned Lugia? Well, I think it has two traits that could be healthy additions to the meta:
1. It's a very strong mon into hyper offense. SV is the most offense-heavy draft generation we've ever seen, with balance builds becoming pretty much unviable. Lugia provides another much-needed defensive glue mon to support bulkier builds. It lost most of its utility as I already said, but it is a very good stopgap Pokemon with Multiscale + Whirlwind.
2. The 110 Speed tier. Ever since Ogerpon was added to SV, 110 has been one of the most important speed tiers in the meta, and there aren't that many non-Ogerpon viable options at or slightly above this speed tier. Lugia would be another option to to fill this important speed tier for draft teams, which would be very appreciated to help diversify team structures.
There are definitely counterarguments against allowing Lugia. Maybe it ends up being too bulky in practice and shuts down too many offensive structures, or maybe I'm underestimating its Calm Mind sets since Toxic is also not widely distributed anymore. It's never been allowed before, so it could just be a lot better in practice than I currently see on paper. Because of this, I would err on the side of caution and legalize a tera-banned Lugia at 19/18 points and see how it performs. If it's too much, then it can just go back to the ban list. If it isn't, though, then I think it could be a legitimately healthy addition to the meta.
I made this post mostly to stir up some discussion since it'll be a while before a new Smogon SV tour starts with an updated draft board. Maybe a league or something that's starting up soon could test it out in the meantime. If not, though, I will return to advocate for a Lugia test in the next winter seasonal.
Considering some of the other stuff we have made legal I don't disagree that there's no merit to giving Lugia a chance of some regard. I think a lot of the points highlighted here are valid and the worry that something might be too strong isn't compelling enough a reason not to try. Our boards have undergone considerable changes over the lifetime of SV, it wasn't that long ago that people were legitimately arguing against legalising Darkrai and Deoxys-Speed, two offensive formerly permabanned pieces, and both have ended up healthy presences in the metagame while not even being overpowered in any regard. (ignoring Hypnosis, fuck Hypnosis) I'm not in support of legalising stuff without a reason for it and I think the points highlighted here indicate that there is both; a decent amount of counterplay and also some genuine niches that Lugia can provide that would add a new layer to the metagame. I would happily see Lugia on our board before Pokemon like Dialga-Origin, who is another one that has seen frequent support for an unban, and actual legalisation in some leagues.
Deoxys-Speed has been on league boards since SwSh natdex. Darkrai I will admit was weaker than expected. That being said I feel comparing Lugia to these two instead of something along the lines of Zamazenta-C or Kyurem Black is a bit dishonest.
Bringing up Darkrai and Deoxys were in discussion of Smogon tours primarily and forgive me if I'm uninformed but it wasn't until recently that we allowed Deoxys here. I think Zamazenta is a good point of comparison and wasn't one I initially thought about. I agree experimenting with Lugia would need to be approached with caution but there is precedent for legalising box legendaries if we feel they are weak enough. I fundamentally don't believe Lugia is even close to Zama or Kyurem-Black this gen though.
Compared to Zamazenta-Crowned, Lugia has:
+ Better special bulk
+ Recovery
+ The ability to hold an item
+ Multiscale
+ SLIGHTLY higher base special attack
- Less speed
- Less raw power
- Less physical bulk (though they're pretty evenly matched without Dauntless Shield)
In my opinion, it would be pretty overwhelming to face in a draft environment. It would be extremely hard to dish out more damage than it can heal and set-up through on Calm Mind sets without something like Toxic. Killing it from full health is functionally impossible:
+6 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 358-423 (86 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Encore is undoubtedly a great answer to Calm Mind sets, but it still allows for counterplay like Mental Herb. Lugia would be so threatening as a wincon that teams without ways to disrupt it would be at a major disadvantage, while Lugia players would probably build teams dedicated to crippling or eliminating their opponent's Encore user(s) to enable their path to victory. (I'm also really concerned about what a Weakness Policy + Scale Shot set might look like.)
I like the idea and it's well-argued by Scribble, but it's probably still too much of a stat stick to feel like a fair and balanced part of the meta.
+ Better special bulk
+ Recovery
+ The ability to hold an item
+ Multiscale
+ SLIGHTLY higher base special attack
- Less speed
- Less raw power
- Less physical bulk (though they're pretty evenly matched without Dauntless Shield)
In my opinion, it would be pretty overwhelming to face in a draft environment. It would be extremely hard to dish out more damage than it can heal and set-up through on Calm Mind sets without something like Toxic. Killing it from full health is functionally impossible:
+6 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 358-423 (86 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Encore is undoubtedly a great answer to Calm Mind sets, but it still allows for counterplay like Mental Herb. Lugia would be so threatening as a wincon that teams without ways to disrupt it would be at a major disadvantage, while Lugia players would probably build teams dedicated to crippling or eliminating their opponent's Encore user(s) to enable their path to victory. (I'm also really concerned about what a Weakness Policy + Scale Shot set might look like.)
I like the idea and it's well-argued by Scribble, but it's probably still too much of a stat stick to feel like a fair and balanced part of the meta.
im with u bro but "slightly higher special attack" is a diabolical plus i've seen zama use its special attack stat like once ever kek
Couple of things I missed/wanted to elaborate on:
-Lugia also lost access to Psycho Boost in Gen 9, which means any semblance of immediate power it might have had no longer exists.
-In the initial post I highlighted Encore and Tera Dark/Steel as widespread forms of counterplay to Lugia. I can do better than that: any form of disruption will do, not just Encore. Lugia is very vulnerable to Taunt and Trick, similar to a mon like Cresselia, and it lacks immediate power to discourage these moves from being used against it. There's also everyone's favorite move Thunder Wave. A Lugia that isn't fast is just a Flying-type Cresselia. The key takeaway is that counterplay to Lugia naturally already exists on every draft because what it struggles to deal with are widespread or can be created with Tera.
-Reiterating that Lugia does NOT have access to Stored Power. It also doesn't have Taunt, so it can't prevent disruption or status from being used against it despite its speed tier.
-Pokemon that are already drafted are massive headaches for Lugia to deal with, like Jirachi, Tinkaton, and Roaring Moon. There's also some top tiers like Raging Bolt and Ogerpon-Wellspring that are strong into it. I don't think the meta would warp around Lugia at all, besides maybe seeing an uptick in Corviknight usage.
-It's easy to post calcs of Lugia not getting 2HKOed by super effective moves, but this is kind of the point of potentially introducing it. It's a Ting-Lu that exchanges utility, power, and a worse typing for a much better speed tier, longevity, and wincon potential. Lugia and Ting-Lu's bulk is pretty comparable, by the way. Unlike Ting-Lu, though, you wouldn't (or, uh, shouldn't, depending on your draft pool) be able to pair Lugia with a premier offensive piece. I know I've said immediate power a lot, but it is really important in the current meta and Lugia drafts will struggle to get it.
I appreciate those who are engaging in good faith both here and in the Discord, but I suspect there are a lot of kneejerk reactions against the idea of testing Lugia just because it's Lugia. I definitely understand, and I'm not claiming my argument is infallible. I could very well just be wrong about all this in practice. All I ask is to please actually read what I'm saying before disagreeing!
This is a really good post and I am all for legalizing Lugia. With that being said, I wanted to talk about what Lugia could do and potentially provide to the meta in both prep and drafts.
An important point that was made through this is that despite Lugia having an amazing speed stat with its bulk, it does not really have that many utility options to help with that. With that being said, it has one move that really sticks out to me: Psychic Noise. This will help it get through opposing fat a lot better, as it can prevent them from recovering while being able to recover itself.
A potential set I see talked about a lot with Lugia would be lead weakness policy, which makes a lot of sense. By leading it, you don't have to risk losing your multiscale through stealth rocks. You are not really going to be able to break through it with super effective attacks, because it will eat it quite comfortably, get the attack boosts, then get the immediate pressure that it is supposed to lack. While I can definately see this set winning games, it does have its own problem, and its just that the opponent can just more than likely let the lugia sit there, as without it boosting stats it just is not going to deal enough damage to make an impact. This gives you so much opportunity to just disrupt it with status moves in general.
Another potentially fun idea I've heard with Lugia is its potential on rain. Access to both Thunder and Hurricane helps a lot with its overall lack of immediate pressure, with the odds of the secondary effects helping with the lack of a movepool it has this generation. Furthermore, it provides rain teams with a defensive backbone that it can feel like it lacks a lot of the time, while other rain abusers can really help with the overall lack of damage lugia would be doing.
Another idea that I personally had was using it on hazard stack based teams. You get something like a Gholdengo to make it really hard to remove as well as consistent ways to get hazards up like H-Samurott, and just spam whirlwind with Lugia. It makes it a lot harder to just abuse lugia when its constantly forcing you out. Now this can lead to some taunt counterplay, but the idea with Lugia in general is that its hard to deal enough damage to it to really keep it that low.
Overall I do feel like in draft there is just more counterplay to deal with fat pokemon like Lugia in general. There could certainly be some threatening setups with it, but really you could do that with just about any top pokemon in the format.
Another thing I want to add is that if you're paying 19 points for a lugia, you are missing out on other top tier mons for essentially what is a fat hit aborber that offers no essential roles to an 8 mon draft (minus phasing, i guess)
yes lugia has a lot of things going for it
like weakness policy sets seem super annoying, it is super hard to take out, etc.
but it's a proposed 19 pointer, it has to have a lot of things going for it to justify that pricepoint, if lugia could not run any sets viably, it would not be that highly priced.
that being said, lugia also has a lot of things going against it, most of these have been mentioned before but I'll go through some of these and why theyre good enough drawbacks for it to be a healthy force in the meta
1. lack of immediate power: Lugia has base 90 special attack, It needs to significantly invest in offense and speed if it doesn't, it will never get going or will be vulnerable to disruption. Without Investment, it's natural bulk is still amazing, but it's no longer a monstrosity.
for reference here's a random calc:
0 hp 0 defense lugia with 252+ special attack has less physical bulk than 252 hp 100+def sinistcha and sinistcha still has more special attack with the leftover investment (i know it's a super random calc but bear with me here)
2. lack of role compression: as mentioned before, this 19 pointer brings almost no extra roles to the table, all other 18-19 pointers bring at least something else to make them worth drafting as a first pick: palafin gets you taunt encore strong priority flip turn, great tusk gets you everything, torn gets you knock uturn, valiant is notoriously the easiest mon to draft around, deo speed gets you hazards and screens as an option to run, meow and gren are top tier speed options with priority and the option to run hazards, lugia is just,, there, it gives you the 110 speed tier and whirlwind which is cool, but it doesnt really add much else and people are going to struggle to draft around it in pools that draft 'ideally'
3. dealing with its checks: as mentioned lugia is really unable to do much vs its checks, it's best tools are probably trick or whirlwind but trick is easily scoutable if it becomes commonplace as one of its only tools to deal with certain mons and you're still just sitting there after whirlwind, you can't even pivot out of your checks.
Now, why would lugia still be a healthy addition to SV?
Well for starters it will introduce a bunch of new playstyles, payton went through a lot of creative ways to build around Lugia and honestly I am here for it, I am tired of SV being screens HO chungus, having other playstyles be viable will be a nice breath of fresh air to rhis format.
yes you can theoretically say that lugia can just be left in the back to beat everything in the end game but then you drafted a mon to absorb hits that isnt really absorbing hits, sv is simply too fast paced to allow these playstyles to thrive.
Additionally, Lugia will also change how certain mons are played, which i think is super cool, roaring moon will probably run more spdef roost sets vs it, wellspring would run synthesis etc, it would also put a lot more emphasis on getting stealth rocks up, if lugia is revealed to be boots, people will feel far more safe attacking it with a super effective move (knock off also removes the boots, slicing down its longevity anyway).
Lugia will definitely be annoying, but the meta will simply adapt to it and most popular mons will simply play differently vs it. Also perhaps the breath of fresh air will make sv more fun
Bottom line is I think we have enough merit to at least test lugia, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
Gm. I am back with another meta revolutionary post, although this one isn't nearly as controversial as Lugia. I know of many people in the scene who feel this way already and some talks have started happening, but I wanted to get some more discussion going in the general public too. TL;DR, Sleep moves should be banned from SV draft.
:xy/darkrai: :xy/ninetales:
We all know what Sleep does at this point. OU went through this debate already this gen (sleep clause is archaic, sleep is inherently broken/too random, etc etc). While the discussion largely originates from Darkrai, it's not the only mon that takes advantage of Sleep. We've seen several mons throw Hypnosis or Sleep Powder on to try to RNG their way through checks (Ninetales, Hisuian Lilligant). This can be game ending in SV more so than any other generation due to how high this gen's power level is.
The main argument against banning Sleep has historically been that Sleep Clause is enough to keep it in check, and inaccurate sleep moves are too unreliable to be widely used. I myself also used to think this way, but sadly people have realized the risk/reward is actually skewed heavily in the Sleep move user's favor. As a result, we've seen inaccurate sleep moves brought to DCL games multiple times. DCL is the highest level of Smogon Draft competition, so if people are willing to bring these moves to these games, that's a strong indicator that Sleep Clause is no longer enough.
An argument made during the OU discussion was that, sometimes, Sleep Clause can actually be beneficial to the Sleep move user. If the opponent picks the most expendable mon on their team as Sleep fodder and the Sleep move misses, then they're simply just down momentum. Sleep clause has never been fully cartridge accurate, so being able to benefit from it in an unintended way is very problematic. I think it's time for Draft to do away with Sleep Clause and fully ban Sleep moves just like SV OU.
It's not worth banning Darkrai to preserve Sleep. Darkrai is a legitimately healthy presence in the format otherwise, being a strong special attacker that isn't a Tera hog (surprisingly rare), and having a valuable Speed tier. Meanwhile, the benefits of keeping Sleep around mostly come from Spore and Yawn users. Since Spore isn't widely distributed, it's easy to prepare for and shut down with Safety Goggles, so Spore users are rarely ever drafted at all. Yawn obviously has the counterplay of switching out of Sleep. which definitely makes it far more balanced. I would miss Yawn, but I don't think its benefits are enough to be worth saving. Many Yawn users have other disruption/status moves they could use instead (Uxie, Galarian Slowking), or at least provide slow momentum (Blastoise, Empoleon).
There's really not much more to say. I don't really know how the possible benefits of keeping Sleep around outweigh its many cons, especially when cartridge accuracy is in the mix. I guess as a final note I'll say I'm only talking about SV Draft in this post, but if oldgen drafts also want to ban sleep...well, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I hope SV does though!
:xy/darkrai: :xy/ninetales:
We all know what Sleep does at this point. OU went through this debate already this gen (sleep clause is archaic, sleep is inherently broken/too random, etc etc). While the discussion largely originates from Darkrai, it's not the only mon that takes advantage of Sleep. We've seen several mons throw Hypnosis or Sleep Powder on to try to RNG their way through checks (Ninetales, Hisuian Lilligant). This can be game ending in SV more so than any other generation due to how high this gen's power level is.
The main argument against banning Sleep has historically been that Sleep Clause is enough to keep it in check, and inaccurate sleep moves are too unreliable to be widely used. I myself also used to think this way, but sadly people have realized the risk/reward is actually skewed heavily in the Sleep move user's favor. As a result, we've seen inaccurate sleep moves brought to DCL games multiple times. DCL is the highest level of Smogon Draft competition, so if people are willing to bring these moves to these games, that's a strong indicator that Sleep Clause is no longer enough.
An argument made during the OU discussion was that, sometimes, Sleep Clause can actually be beneficial to the Sleep move user. If the opponent picks the most expendable mon on their team as Sleep fodder and the Sleep move misses, then they're simply just down momentum. Sleep clause has never been fully cartridge accurate, so being able to benefit from it in an unintended way is very problematic. I think it's time for Draft to do away with Sleep Clause and fully ban Sleep moves just like SV OU.
It's not worth banning Darkrai to preserve Sleep. Darkrai is a legitimately healthy presence in the format otherwise, being a strong special attacker that isn't a Tera hog (surprisingly rare), and having a valuable Speed tier. Meanwhile, the benefits of keeping Sleep around mostly come from Spore and Yawn users. Since Spore isn't widely distributed, it's easy to prepare for and shut down with Safety Goggles, so Spore users are rarely ever drafted at all. Yawn obviously has the counterplay of switching out of Sleep. which definitely makes it far more balanced. I would miss Yawn, but I don't think its benefits are enough to be worth saving. Many Yawn users have other disruption/status moves they could use instead (Uxie, Galarian Slowking), or at least provide slow momentum (Blastoise, Empoleon).
There's really not much more to say. I don't really know how the possible benefits of keeping Sleep around outweigh its many cons, especially when cartridge accuracy is in the mix. I guess as a final note I'll say I'm only talking about SV Draft in this post, but if oldgen drafts also want to ban sleep...well, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I hope SV does though!
By “sleep moves” you mean “Hypnosis”, right…?
lol he said he wouldnt lose any sleep over it, this is comedy
Have you considered the glorious presence that is the move Yawn in the metagame? Nothing quite gets the blood pumping like switching into rocks 16 times as I desperately try to not go down a mon.
I do fundamentally agree with Scribble, banning Sleep definitely does seem like the right way forward for this tier. We don’t need to rely on a simulator mod to make a mechanic playable, it’s not even comparable to Tera Preview in that sense which is just effectively a gentleman’s agreement.
There is one key issue that I do want to outline though, which is Sneasler. Sneasler without Sleep Clause is possibly the only issue I can see with this proposal. Meloetta does not see enough usage to be a genuine issue, and neither do Effect Spore users but Sneasler with Dire Claw does see enough usage to be an issue. I don’t know how we would go about dealing with that.
There is one key issue that I do want to outline though, which is Sneasler. Sneasler without Sleep Clause is possibly the only issue I can see with this proposal. Meloetta does not see enough usage to be a genuine issue, and neither do Effect Spore users but Sneasler with Dire Claw does see enough usage to be an issue. I don’t know how we would go about dealing with that.
I do not think is the right mindset to tier with. If Darkrai were the only Pokémon who could use Hypnosis well, it should be banned. Again minor nitpick as there are other good sleep users but we shouldn’t try and tier based off of what the mon brings outside its broken element or this very quickly can devolve into complex bans.
Yawn has been used once so far in the SV DCL games; hypnosis has been used 6 times (plus I brought it once but Darkrai didn't get to use it). None of the spore users are even on drafts
I feel like banning inaccurate sleep moves is better than taking away Yawn (very good disruption) or Spore (breloom needs it let bro hang on to the ghost of relevancy)
I've gone ahead and made a poll in this thread, it will appear at the top. Sleep Moves in this case refer to all moves that solely inflict sleep (Hypnosis, Yawn, Dark Void, Spore etc.). It does not refer to moves such as Dire Claw and Relic Song which will remain legal regardless. This poll is non-binding, it's purely to see what the community thinks.
leave my ninetales alone :(
The only sleep move that is remotely actionable is Hypnosis, primarily on Valiant and Darkrai - and even that tends to be rather predictable when it comes. Considering this is a tier where things like resist berries, custap berry, rowap berry, and red card are reasonable and perhaps even expected as counterplay, I do not think a Lum Berry is too much to ask, especially as SV Draft is a tier where one turn of doing nothing can easily mean an instant loss. OU bans things when it is perceived that they warp the teambuilder and make consistent play impossible. Draft by definition is a game of playing around a warped teambuilder and all the fun and games that entails. This seems to me like taking action just for the sake of taking action.
For what it's worth, if this is seriously being considered, please at least be consistent and ban Dire Claw and Relic Song as well.
For what it's worth, if this is seriously being considered, please at least be consistent and ban Dire Claw and Relic Song as well.