Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

[mauby]

Exhibit A

Fighting vs Dragon
Fighting vs Poison
Fighting vs Psychic

As previously mentioned, I've been an enjoyer of Fighting since DLC2 brought . Having used Fighting only during a decently successful reqs run, I can't help but feel that the type is underrated and have a couple quick thoughts to share.

In the DLC2 meta Dragon was arguably the strongest type, with additions like and having great synergy with . Steel was also a solid type that benefited from the addition of

Despite this, Fighting still had good matchups vs both Dragon and Steel with tools like , , , , and of course to threaten , , , and

Therefore I would argue that the ban has somewhat diminished Fighting's viability. Furthermore with gone, Flying threats such as , , and instantly became more viable.

Overall I'm not convinced was the biggest problem in the meta but given a second suspect test, I think Ban was the correct decision.

Other threats in the meta

As far as other threats are concerned, ironically I still find 's versatility/unpredictability super annoying. As if Stamina with Rocks + Twave / Choice Scarf / Assault Vest weren't enough, I recently learned of Sturdy + Heavy Duty Boots with Mirror Coat.

Also find it curious how hasn't come up as a mon of concern.

 

[Anchor9]

1. Iron Defense Araquanid is a counter to Gourging Fire:

+1 252 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Water Bubble Araquanid: 102-121 (30 - 35.6%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO

You can easily set up Iron Defense and win 1v1 with Rest; this is a counter by definition.

SORRY!!!! MERCY!!!! LET ME RESPOND TO THIS REAL QUICK MODS!!!! I BEG YOU!!!

Ok. So what I want to say is you don’t account for a couple things here. If this is on Fire, Gouging Fire is very likely under Sun, meaning you’re going to get 2HKOed.

If this is on Dragon, Gouging Fire can set up while you sleep. And if it runs Dragon Claw, which isn’t too out of the ordinary, it’s going to chip you quickly.

> +6 252 Atk Gouging Fire Dragon Claw vs. +6 248 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 102-120 (30 - 35.3%) -- 22% chance to 3HKO

GF can continue to set up while you Iron Defense, and force you to Rest in between, meaning you will not be able to attack without risking getting KOed. You win the short game, but lose in the long run.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I admit I'm purposefully using the term check/counter a bit looser than the actual definition of the word, but if you're going to argue that something isn't a check/counter by definition I expect you to know what the definition is and apply it correctly.

To recap the actual definition:

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (Note: this is under standard field conditions, which is SR, no spikes, no webs, no reflect/ligthscreen)

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

Of note:

If a Pokémon gets a "free switch" in, that means it gets to enter the field without the opponent being able to immediately make a move on it. For example, a common way that you get a free switch is after one of your Pokémon faints; your next Pokémon is allowed to enter the field without immediately being attacked. If one of your Pokémon is "manually switched" in, then your Pokémon allows the opponent to make a move without your Pokémon being able to respond in that turn. Your opponent's move doesn't have to be damaging. If your opponent uses Swords Dance as you manually switch in, your opponent still has an advantage as opposed to if you had gotten a free switch. A manual switch is exactly what it sounds like; the most common way is literally switching out during your turn instead of attacking. There is one subtlety. For example, a Ground-type switching into an Electric-type move will not be affected at all, so this counts as a free switch because the Ground-type incurred no punishment upon switching in.

I've generally shied away from using these definitions lately because I've found that people don't like what the definitions tell them and say "you're wrong" to statements that are true by definition. For example:

1. Standard Hazard Garchomp is a counter to Specs Chi-Yu.

Viz:

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 306-361 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (modest is 1/16 to kill with rocks chip)

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chi-Yu: 324-384 (129 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Garchomp can switch into any attack and force Chi-Yu out; it is a counter by definition.

2. Urshifu-Rapid-Strike is a counter to SD Baxcalibur.

Viz:

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 39-46 (11.4 - 13.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 422-498 (113.7 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Urshifu can switch into any attack and force Baxcalibur out as the combination of Glaive Rush + Ice Shard does not kill; it is a counter by definition.

3. Zapdos-Galar is a counter to Black Glasses Adamant Urshifu-Single-Strike:

252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar on a critical hit: 132-156 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 82-97 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 380-450 (111.4 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It can come into any move and win 1v1; it is a counter by definition.

Anyways, now that we have the definitions out the way let's look at some of the bug checks mentioned above:

1. Iron Defense Araquanid is a counter to Gourging Fire:

+1 252 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Water Bubble Araquanid: 102-121 (30 - 35.6%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO

You can easily set up Iron Defense and win 1v1 with Rest; this is a counter by definition.

2. Banded Kleavor with Stone Edge is a not a check to Gourging Fire:

252 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kleavor: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Kleavor Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gouging Fire: 428-506 (121.9 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It wins 1v1 the majority of the time, but not under the worst case scenario it is a not a check by definition (sorry Chait!).

3. Cutsap Heracross is a check to non-Bulwark Gourging Fire:

Stated above; assuming a free switch it can come in and trade.
Even with 252 HP evs, gouging fire takes 23% recoil from flare blitz. This means:
252+ Atk Heracross Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gouging Fire: 297-349 (71.7 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
is generally enough to kill. Variants with raging fury are locked into it, so you can click endeavor against those and easily revenge kill with any priority move. Regardless it wins 1v1 so it is a check by definition.

I don't understand how you can say some of these sets, like Araquanid and Heracross, "Are not checks" when they are by definition, unless you do not know what the definition of a check actually is.

Aight I haven't been responding because I've been following through and trying out stuff Chait proposed to see if I could make something feasible regardless of how much I have to give up in exchange. So when I finish that project I'll post thoughts on the more feasible checks people have listed.

That being said learn what a check and counter is first. You called me out then were still dead wrong lol...

The Araquanid set you listed by the way, should never be used imo. The actual sequence of events from using Araquanid in that scenario results in a pretty determined 3 turn sequence, which since you pretty much give dragon all the momentum with araquanid in this exchange, will result in Bug's loss.

Anyhow Araquanid I've shifted to saying it's technically an answer, but one that pretty much guarantees bug's loss if you actually use in the drag mu. Hera also is most certainly not a check. It not only loses if they have heat crash>flare blitz, but the bulky breaking swipe set just rolls it.

Only saying this for now, I'll post something more in depth, since after all, I'm trying out the theorymons that all the suddenly awoken bug type keyboard warriors who apparently know all the answers to Gouging Fire with zero practical sense for the action ingame listed as options.

Very interesting discussion guys.

Anyways, Baxcalibur has been the first ban vote of DLC2, pretty exciting. Looking forward to how the meta shapes in the next few weeks and how people feel by the time the next survey drops. Speaking of the coming meta, some short thoughts/predicts of my own for how the types may shift from before the suspect.


Dragon has lost a big piece, and I don't think anything could truly fill Baxcalibur's shoes the same way (thankfully), but space for experimenting with a lot of other options is now open. and are some immediate examples that come to mind, with Kyurem being a strong flying/ground/water/dragon breaker, ice neutral, and could have decent set variety with specs, boots, dd sets etc. Raging Bolt is similarly strong into Flying and Water, and is also able to be extremely annoying into types like Fairy and Fighting that otherwise can harass Dragon fairly hard. is an amazing steel and poison breaker w/sub nasty plot, and provides a very much appreciated ghost resist + ground immune in a single slot. probably also has some merit with specs/boots knock off sets and such into steel. could be great, once again a ground immunity but one that can take a more immediately threatening DD sweeper angle that can be teched to beat a handful of types. Banded could be cool too, dragon could use the physical firepower with Baxcalibur's death. I don't have much to say on. Bulky regen attacker, owns water/ground, its fatness can be annoying in other matchups too. The mirror matchup changes a ton aswell, so I'm interested to see how people go about building for that (scarf dragapult speed tie time?)



Ground getting even stronger is insane, and is definitely the type that will force dragon teams to adapt the hardest. Ursaluna and Excadrill are hard enough to handle as is, but with Baxcalibur gone now even Landorus becomes a complete demon for dragon to face. Mixed is also something worth experimenting with, it was already quite solid in bax-meta IMO, but there was always the issue that a -2 Garchomp allowed bax to SD for free which sucked like crazy. has already been quite the menace and will continue to get better as this meta proceeds, so personally it is #1 on my watchlist, and I'm sure a good bit of people feel the same.



Ground buffed, dragon nerfed, time for this type to reignite its place back up in the meta I'd imagine. Sure Kyurem/Bolt Dragons will still exist, but + fat styles could find themselves managing one way or another. becomes harder to force out for Dragon, and even the things that can like scarf Roaring Moon/Latios, Raging Bolt, Goodra-H, are all mons that can be switched into a little less annoyingly for Flying; as opposed to Bax who could SD on the forced swap and force uncomfortable turns (worth noting that with rocks up and high-ish rolls, +2 icicle crash could 2hko Skarmory even if it iron defences after the first crash. Was annoying.) flyings will be fun as well, considering all of steel, fire, dragon, and ground hate switching into this pokemon.



While dragon may have a lot of annoying shit for poison to deal with, Bax always felt like the truly unbeatable one. and will still be difficult to handle, but overall excited to see how this types matchups evolve. That being said, flying and ground being better definitely still sucks for poison so don't get too excited using this type.



Normal was already rising a decent bit towards the end of the previous meta, and in the normal vs dragon matchup, Baxcalibur often felt like the biggest threat to switch into. For Ursaluna specifically, most of the dragons with the ability to force it out invite in pretty freely, so overall I think Normal has been buffed by this ban.

Some final notes, ice is obviously significantly worse, and water is something we will have to see how it plays out; its matchups into kyurem/bolt are dire, but the normal/ground/fire/steel etc can struggle with rain pretty heavily, so water might pop off. Types like Fire, Fairy, and Steel I don't think change drastically beyond having to adapt to new dragon usages (bolt is annoying for fairy, hydreigon for steel, literally anything for fire). Overall though, excited to see what people come up with and showcase in SV cup/seasonals final few rounds, and how we decide to tier in the future.

Defs excited about Poison, though yeah it's not happy about ground. I have a hydrapple drag that's pretty solid as well since I was imagining ground would be boosted, but there's a lack of an answer to Mamo anyhow. I still see drag as a huge threat, personally I'd been doing a kommo o build that seems to work pretty well in this meta. Been a fan of it since earlier in the DLC and I think it helps the build alot now as well.

 

[cpt.kraken]

As I said in my identification voters post, ban as goat Toadow asked in his interview for winning circuit 23 and . Also two items should be quickban cause it's so weird they're still here . I won't argue in 10 thousand lines cause laziness. But once this is done, we can see different minor threats.

 

[Pengairxan]

Well, since the ban discussions are starting again, here are my 2 cents.

I think as of right now and are easily the most problematic things and need to go as soon as possible with and also being massive issues but just a bit less so. Along with Gouging, but the side I choose lost so next year? Personally speaking, I think everything listed on the survey eventually needs to go but these things need to go first before action is taken on stuff like and

Speaking of , I believe that and are both mons that fill the same roll and are only kept in this tier because they're pure types and have hard counters that they aren't really beating ( is not breaking past several bulky mons including , and while does not beat stuff like or unless you let it get to like +6) but if you lack a reliability bulky Ghost/Poison or Dark type they can kind of just, win, with not much you can do about it.

 

[DaRotomMachine]

Well, since the ban discussions are starting again, here are my 2 cents.

I think as of right now and are easily the most problematic things and need to go as soon as possible with and also being massive issues but just a bit less so. Along with Gouging, but the side I choose lost so next year? Personally speaking, I think everything listed on the survey eventually needs to go but these things need to go first.

I would also believe that and are both mons that fill the same roll and are only kept in this tier because they're pure types and have hard counters that they aren't beating ( is not breaking past several bulky mons like , and while does not beat stuff like or unless you let it get to like +6) but if you lack a reliability bulky Ghost/Poison or Dark type they can kind of just, win, with not much you can do about it.

IMO Chien-Pao is probably the next suspect-worthy pokemon. (Even tho Ice is gonna get even worse than it is rn

 

[TheMaverrick]

I don't understand why people think pao is worse than gambit. What is the reasoning for this? Thanks

 

[DaRotomMachine]

I don't understand why people think pao is worse than gambit. What is the reasoning for this? Thanks

I don't know what you are talking about.
Both of them are around the same level.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I don't understand why people think pao is worse than gambit. What is the reasoning for this? Thanks

Worse as in worse in the metagame, or worse as in worse for the metagame?

 

[TheMaverrick]

As in more of problem for the metagame, ie pao should be looked at for a ban over gambit

 

[Gorechomp]

I don't understand why people think pao is worse than gambit. What is the reasoning for this? Thanks

Faster than most of the meta, has effectively 177 Attack if you factor in it's ability, puts a heavy strain on team building, can run a variety of sets, etc. Pao has always been a bitch to deal with, especially if you're running a type that's weak to it. At least Kingambit is slow and somewhat exploitable.

 

[DaRotomMachine]

Faster than most of the meta, has effectively 177 Attack if you factor in it's ability, puts a heavy strain on team building, can run a variety of sets, etc. Pao has always been a bitch to deal with, especially if you're running a type that's weak to it. At least Kingambit is slow and somewhat exploitable.

That's not what he asked. He asked why he's hearing that GAMBIT is better than Chien-Pao

 

[Elvira]

That's not what he asked. He asked why he's hearing that GAMBIT is better than Chien-Pao

Two dark mons that share a physical attacking kit but with different abilities. One gets boosted 5 times and can reverse sweep while the other one is a glass cannon ice cat with an ability to lower base defense by 25% (if I am correct). To say one is better than the other is making two comparisons to dark. However since they share double typing you can’t compare because on dark you can use both but ice and steel are very different. They both are at the same power level of both being annoying issues that you have to build around or keep an eye on during each battle.

 

[Gorechomp]

That's not what he asked. He asked why he's hearing that GAMBIT is better than Chien-Pao

Tomato, to-mat-o. They’re both ridiculously good and could use a suspect test imho.

 

[mushamu]

I think the post bax meta is really interesting and there have been a lot of good discussion on what to do next regarding the tier. I wanted to bring up something that has been mentioned here and there.


I think sleep should be gone from monotype, not just in SV but in all generations. This would tie back into the way it is handled now being pretty inconsistent with the rest of the general tiering philosophy on smogon. Starting with the basics, sleep by itself is a broken status condition that was restricted into the sleep clause we know today as having a pokemon slept is essentially knocking it out especially in such a fast paced metagame as SV. I believe sleep sets itself apart from freeze, as despite being similar there are moves that actually inflict sleep like spore and hypnosis while freeze is completely probability based and banking on "getting unlucky". The second part to this is why the sleep clause is pretty bad in terms of tiering- I believe it's the same as complex banning other elements. For example, preventing certain Z-moves from being used, preventing certain pokemon from dynamaxing, banning moves/abilities instead of entire pokemon (1k arrows on zygarde, speed boost on blaziken, wicked blow on urshifu), the list goes on and on. In terms of handling how this mechanic is tiered, I believe that outright removing sleep is the most efficient way and the sleep clause we have now is simply a really bad tiering precedent that only serves to somewhat keep an unhealthy mechanic in the game.

It should probably be brought up in a general tiering thread since it does create a huge precedence (removing sleep) but I feel strongly about it simply being banned from monotype at the very least in terms of legitimacy.

 

[boomp]

I think the Sleep discussion would be an interesting topic for community to speak their mind about it (if they choose to do). My opinion is pretty shakey. Reason I say this is because this meta is so offensive right now and it would remove so much counter play to certain threats in a match. Rather from Spore all the way to yawn, it cause a drastic change, a lot of teams/leads would be played so differently. But this does prevent the likes of sleep from Darkrai to be able to have a free nasty plot in your face, or ninetales to enable one of its teammates like gouging fire, ceruledge, or Firepon from getting a free setup opportunity.

But hey you can still Dire Claw your way to victory!

 

[Pengairxan]

I guess I'm someone who is team sleep (despite having such a horrible schedule myself)
My feelings is this, Sleep is not oppressive in the current meta outside of poor planning. The most prominent sleepers in my experience are Amoonguss and Torkoal, neither of whom can take advantage of their own sleep and primarily use it for safe pivoting, scaring out offensive threats or just going for a hail merry hoping they live and can stop the power heading their way so something else can hopefully take it down. And that is where sleep is more prominent, as offensively not many sleepers are relevant. You've got two B ranks and a C rank all coming with several of issues (Quad flying weakness and being a Pure and all with the dreaded 4 MSS) with none of them seeing consistent ladder or tournament play despite sleep.
And speaking of tournament play, I doubt many of the good players would be willing to bet lets say their entire MPL's team chance on winning on a Darkrai landing a hypnosis.
Oh and then there is Sneasler and Meloetta's signature sleep moves. But my argument here is this, If we can ban Dire Claw for a 16.67% chance, we should ban Ice Beam for a 10% chance of Sleep but even more RNG hell (please, I've been frozen for 12 turns, send help).
So Sleep haters, just take a good rest and it will be all better.

 

[Woomsicle]

I think the post bax meta is really interesting and there have been a lot of good discussion on what to do next regarding the tier. I wanted to bring up something that has been mentioned here and there.


I think sleep should be gone from monotype, not just in SV but in all generations. This would tie back into the way it is handled now being pretty inconsistent with the rest of the general tiering philosophy on smogon. Starting with the basics, sleep by itself is a broken status condition that was restricted into the sleep clause we know today as having a pokemon slept is essentially knocking it out especially in such a fast paced metagame as SV. I believe sleep sets itself apart from freeze, as despite being similar there are moves that actually inflict sleep like spore and hypnosis while freeze is completely probability based and banking on "getting unlucky". The second part to this is why the sleep clause is pretty bad in terms of tiering- I believe it's the same as complex banning other elements. For example, preventing certain Z-moves from being used, preventing certain pokemon from dynamaxing, banning moves/abilities instead of entire pokemon (1k arrows on zygarde, speed boost on blaziken, wicked blow on urshifu), the list goes on and on. In terms of handling how this mechanic is tiered, I believe that outright removing sleep is the most efficient way and the sleep clause we have now is simply a really bad tiering precedent that only serves to somewhat keep an unhealthy mechanic in the game.

It should probably be brought up in a general tiering thread since it does create a huge precedence (removing sleep) but I feel strongly about it simply being banned from monotype at the very least in terms of legitimacy. I agree that its inconsistent with the general philosophy of tiering.

I agree with mush. I think sleep should also be gone from every generation. It is being abused as of lately due to the crappy meta we have currently. I know that paralyze, and other status moves are equally as "annoying" or "rng" but I think sleep is the worst of them all. Comparing "freeze" to something like hypnosis holds no validity. Even when paralyzed there is still counter plays that can be done. When focus sash Rai uses hypnosis, its quite annoying. I played a monotype ladder match today where my opponent spammed hypnosis with ninetales like there was no tomorrow. I'm not saying that it is a "HUGE" problem, but I am saying it is something worth looking at. its a cheesy strat, and on top of everything, the sleep clause is AWFUL.

 

[cpt.kraken]

For me sleep status is fine as you can easily play around and have a sleep fodder / sac in your team contrary to how paralysis is totally broken. Right now, sleep users are mainly Breloom, Darkrai, Amoonguss. Even Torkoal is not that often used and yawn is a 2 turn move so it's fine (I haven't seen a Ninetales used it since a while). There are obviously more mons going from Lilligant-H to Quagsire but the 4mss hit a lot of them. I don't think it would dramatically change the metagame to totally ban it, contrary to paralysis ! The fact that it halves speed is a very interesting tool but throwing a dice to hope being able to play is... Totally stupid and I blame game freak/nintendo for this. Considering having a clause would limit the no skill level of spamming para.

 

[adjustments]

i mean i do kinda agree on the overall sentiment that sleep is broken, but right now in this tier it's not the main centralizing issue. sure yeah you can MAYBE steal a game abusing it if you're lucky. btw paralysis sucks too but nothing will ever happen tiering wise related to it lol so we just gotta deal with it. sleep though is something i would be 1. for putting on the next survey and 2. examining it down the line when things are even more settled. if it gets high ratings on the survey then that's the call to ban it be my guest. but i do think things like and are going to get higher calls for tiering than sleep on this very next survey. i personally think those 2 are the most problematic in the meta right now as well, we really should have banned gouging fire when we had the chance.

as for other things to note in this post-bax meta:
- dragon usage has dropped, we will see by how much when the stats are out for march, but i think by slightly more than just a little bit
- ground is really fkn good. sand ground is hard to stop once you get the momentum going and having ursaluna blood moon to top it off just makes it ridiculous. the variation of ev spreads and sets + recovery makes it a real wildcard as to what you're facing when you load against ground (and probably normal too). the support it receives on both types also can't really go unnoticed. + + on ground is pretty sweet and you can't deny that + + / on normal is good support.
- as for one possible response to the rise of ground usage, i have been messing around with fighting. fighting gets healing wish support thru and that mon is also strong enough to hold its own as a scarfer with stabs + triple axel. you don't even need to be hustle but if you like to gamble you can go for it. and also really go in on the ground mu as well. / also cool options for that specific mu as well. fighting is also good into dragon with the right tools and steel obviously.
- gouging fire can still do gouging fire things. there is a little more variation in its sets now too which makes it even more annoying and broken. ive seen some scale shot stuff, some bulwark stuff, some 3 attacks stuff. in the sun its even more ridiculous but i think we already knew that.
- speaking of sun, heat rock is definitely back on the table for discussion now. it enables so many mons on fire and dealing with 8 turns of sun is super overwhelming for a lot of types.

anyways as we approach the end of seasonals and the later rounds of SV cup i am extremely excited to see what people are cooking up. still a ban or two away from a perfect tier but by the time MPL rolls around i think we will be in a much better spot.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I love Sleep. I tried mush's Sing Primarina team and this thing goes hard.

To be honest I understand the reasoning behind banning sleep. Even when it's 60% acc, something like hypnosis Darkrai can be a game ender if it doesn't miss, and can be super difficult for some teams to accurately respond to as a result. You want to counter with the assumption it's a specs or Nasty Plot 3 attack, but doing so can cause your counter to become deadweight to be taken advantage of. Another example is with the Primarina team, where often times Primarina will force a switch, and it feels like the 55% acc Sing isn't exactly a hindrance when the result is more often than not you gaining momentum or turns to calm mind/dkiss for recover.

That being said, I'm very much against limiting options and playstyles, especially when a ruling like this could very easily be argued for inclusion across gens. I don't think sleep is inherently a bad thing, and I'd even argue that sleep for most of it's use in monotype has been nothing more than a stopgate used by one pokemon - often on lower viability types - to help address build problems that not every type can fully fix. Breloom on Grass with Spore I kinda see in this train of thought.

I'll also say, unless absolutely necessary, I don't think mechanics should be gotten rid of. Even looking at more obviously broken situations like Baton Pass - a move that can be crazy to deal with and completely unbalanced due to it's strongest perpetrators - is something that I still miss sometimes as a solid pivoting option.

I will also point out that sleep is not anything worth looking at for 99% of sleep options, and it basically amounts to Darkrai as the main perpetrator of it being looked at. I don't think people were ever really complaining about Breloom with Spore, Yawn sets like Yawn Swampert, or the odd mon with sleep powder. Darkrai feels like the main perpetrator of sleep being a problem. There are other hypnosis users technically, like Iron Valiant running Hypnosis was a thing in OU I think, but I'd never really seen anything like that here. Sleep, on most available pokemon with sleep, is simply not anything difficult too difficult to handle.

I will also note that I am definitely happier with the meta so far post Bax ban. Still some problematic mons in the tier, but things seem a bit better so far.

 

[Leafium Z]

To be completely honest, I never really thought of Sleep being a problematic aspect of the game until the Ban Sleep party started to raise their flags in OU with the Darkrai unban, and at that point, it got me thinking as to why people thought it was a problem.

As it is right now, moves that induce Sleep puts the target essentially unusable for a random number from 1 to 3 turns. So, I believe it's safe to say that the Sleep mechanic adds another layer of RNG (or, if you are one of those out there that believe luck do not exist, RNG management skills) and unpredictability to the game. Does adding more RNG and unpredictability in such an impactful way make the games more or less competitive? That's for each of us to decide, in our own personal judgement.

Personally, I believe the worst thing about sleep is not knowing the amount of turns you'll spend sleeping. That uncertainity is enough to make any gameplan from that point forward become basically a cointoss. It's almost something similar as to what the full para effect from paralysis does, which I believe we all know how frustrating, irritating and, speaking at a personal level again, uncompetitive and COMPLETE BS it is. And uncertainity is precisely what we do NOT want to see in a competitive game, where we want the most competetent player to win most of the times.

I think the reasoning behind removing Sleep altogether is similar to the reasoning used to remove the evasion items. Were they broken? Absolutely not. Did they won relevant games? Zilch. Are they uncompetitive? Yes.

Is Sleep broken? Of course not! Is it uncompetitive? I don't really know yet, but it honestly might be.

 

[mushamu]

Hey guys, with all the sleep discussion recently I wanted to take the opportunity to also mention that it is also important to get enough sleep in real life as important as it is to save a Spore fodder when you load into Poison. Instead of taking 2 or 3 turns to sleep, remember that you should be getting at least 8 hours of rest every single night as it is vital for both physical and mental health. The most important stage of sleep, REM, occurs within the last few hours of a good night's rest and without it, it is impossible to function throughout your daily life.

https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2021/04/good-sleep-good-health#:~:text=Good sleep improves your brain,spent in bed, says Dr.

proof

Happy resting, Monotypers!

 

[mauby]

Re: Sleep status & RNG

I confess that I don't play or follow OU but I heard about this development while watching Aim, Blunder and CTC

I would have thought that strictly sleep inducing moves like Spore and Hypnosis, were manageable with Sleep Clause. In the SV Monotype meta you can plan for / play around Sleep inducers - such as Breloom, Amoonguss, Smeargle and Darkrai - knowing that Sleep Cause only means 1 mon takes a nap. There is also counter play such as mons with sleep / powder move blocking abilities, items like Safety Goggles and Chesto Berry or simply having a grass type for Powder moves.

What is near impossible to account for is RNG sleep, from moves like Dire Claw. With Sneasler seeing high usage on both it's respective types, I'm sure we can all think of at least 1 game where the outcome was decided by an unfortunate sleep proc. Even then, Sleep Clause was still there. So for OU to ban direct sleep inducing moves but remove Sleep Cause seems so baffling to me. I don't think Monotype should follow suit with Sneasler being so prominent.

Speaking of RNG, can we talk about how truly unfortunate "yellow magic" is? Full Paralysis is much more luck based and uncompetitive. As if having your speed halved wasn't bad enough, that 25% chance to be fully paralyzed (not even once per battle but every single turn) is tragic, to say the least. Finally, with Electric being the only type immune to paralysis and para blocking abilities (Limber, Comatose, Purifiying Salt) being very niche, there is even less counter play than for sleep.

If we can survive "yellow magic", surely we can survive sleep too.

 

[sasha]

I haven't really played since pre-DLC 1, so take what I say with a grain of salt if any of it sounds dumb,

I think sleep clause in itself is mickey because modding the game like that makes mons feel weird but it's been a thing for years now so I think haphazardly changing it is definitely not the course of action we should take, that being said however, I know OU banned it (I was not playing at all at the time of its ban or leading up to it, though I'm aware sleep moves were prevalent in OU as I've been told, if I'm wrong feel free to interject ofc), but I don't think that kind of prevalence is in Monotype yet to ban it.

I'm not against a sleep ban, sleep moves have 0 skill expression for the person clicking it and in itself is a very uncompetitive and stupid mechanic, but I do not think Monotype is in a state to warrant a suspect or QB of it just because I'd personally rather see stats that its broken before anything like OU did. As well as my limited time playing post DLC meta, it seems like there's a lot of other fish to catch in regards to suspects. I personally hate and think it is the most unskilled uncompetitive mon ever and is more broken than and though this is a hot take amongst most probably. The meta feels boring and lame and I would not want to touch this tier with a 10 foot pole in any tour ever and think that the stupid mons should go before MPL rather than sleep stuff atm, though I generally agree with the arguments for banning sleep I just feel like in good conscience it's not the move rn.

proof

?

go to bed bro