Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

Based on its unique move, i supposed at first that Game Freak planned Gouging Fire to a be a… “defensive mon”, but GF proved again that sometimes they don’t know what they are actually doing as I haven’t seen nobody either using that move (which amazing IMO), or GF as a defensive option (atleast in mono), and as you have said it’s an amazing sweeper that can give auto-wins in certains MU, let’s see how the council deals with it.

On the other hand, I am glad that you answered my post since the beginning of gen 9 you always have experimented with bug and I was wondering what your thoughts were on the situation of the type in the present meta. I hope you are able to build some teams that work and share them.
This is actually not true. Spdef Gouging Fire is actually fairly popular and if Ddance gouging fire was bad for bug, wait till you see the war crimes spdef can do on types like bug. Burning bulwark makes clicking stone axe unwise as once you have been burned, you are effectively useless. This is made worse by the fact that it learns morning sun. GF WHY. A simple moveset of burning bulwark, morning sun, dragon tail, and one of eq/fire wove(I use heat crash) could completely shut down entire teams. Namely, the set is imo close to unwinnable for grass and bug, even more so than the dragon dance variant. Take torterra for example, unboosted torterra cannot ohko this thing, so it wants to set up, but gouging might predict that and dragon tail. Suddenly, your torterra is close to useless. All of this is made worse by the fact that in sun, morning sun heals 75%. This means that all the progress you have done over that past few turns can be undone in one move. Spdef also helps in a lot of MUs, for example, gouging fire at full health is very likely to live 2 specs flutter mane moonblast which is amazing for dragon. Since heat crash has a 62.5% chance to OHKO from full(or guaranteed if rocks are up), flutter mane is forced to leave. I genuinely think that the spdef variant makes life hell for a lot of type because if your setup sweeper is not fairy type or cannot ohko spdef gouging, it's not sweeping soon. All of which is made worse by the fact that gouging has natural high attack stat so dragon tail actually stings quite a bit.
 
This is actually not true. Spdef Gouging Fire is actually fairly popular and if Ddance gouging fire was bad for bug, wait till you see the war crimes spdef can do on types like bug. Burning bulwark makes clicking stone axe unwise as once you have been burned, you are effectively useless. This is made worse by the fact that it learns morning sun. GF WHY. A simple moveset of burning bulwark, morning sun, dragon tail, and one of eq/fire wove(I use heat crash) could completely shut down entire teams. Namely, the set is imo close to unwinnable for grass and bug, even more so than the dragon dance variant. Take torterra for example, unboosted torterra cannot ohko this thing, so it wants to set up, but gouging might predict that and dragon tail. Suddenly, your torterra is close to useless. All of this is made worse by the fact that in sun, morning sun heals 75%. This means that all the progress you have done over that past few turns can be undone in one move. Spdef also helps in a lot of MUs, for example, gouging fire at full health is very likely to live 2 specs flutter mane moonblast which is amazing for dragon. Since heat crash has a 62.5% chance to OHKO from full(or guaranteed if rocks are up), flutter mane is forced to leave. I genuinely think that the spdef variant makes life hell for a lot of type because if your setup sweeper is not fairy type or cannot ohko spdef gouging, it's not sweeping soon. All of which is made worse by the fact that gouging has natural high attack stat so dragon tail actually stings quite a bit.
I get your point too, i suppose i haven’t expressed myself accurately, what i meant is that althought it is imo an amazing defensive mon, it is more commonly used offensively, which in the end shows how brutal this paradox really is. And, correct me if I am wrong (since I started playing here and developing and interested in competitive when bdsp dropped), but the powercreep this generation brought to the table is gigantic, as we have got a lot of really optimized mons.
 
Happy New Year, everyone! Below, we have the results for the UNOFFICIAL Monotype Awards 2023, congratulations for all the big winners!

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Speaking from a position of unfamiliarity with the meta, has anyone found a way to make Sun work on dragon? It doesn't have any Drought users, but having four very good Protosynthesis abusers and a decent number of fast things that can learn Sunny Day seems like it ought to be worth considering.
 

Pengairxan

D_RUNNIN
is a Pre-Contributor
Speaking from a position of unfamiliarity with the meta, has anyone found a way to make Sun work on dragon? It doesn't have any Drought users, but having four very good Protosynthesis abusers and a decent number of fast things that can learn Sunny Day seems like it ought to be worth considering.
There have been attempts to make it work, but it has ended up as inconsistent overall (at least from my experience fighting it).
Dragon is already a packed type that can't really hold the breaks for that long to get manual sun up, switch into a breaker and keep it up consistently throughout a game.

You are forced to gimp your team by doing the following:
Run a manual sun setting support mon like Dragapult, One of the Latis, or Cyclizar with Sun, U-turn/Flip Turn (You want your pivot to actually get into your sun attackers) STAB and an actual utility move (Or a Fire move which on Cyclizar especially would be bad since doesn't have the offensives stats to make good use of them) and being forced to choose between Boots and having 3 turns of sun for your actual breakers or HeatRock and having them take massive entry damage each time they go to set sun, giving you limited switch ins, especially for Pult.
OR
Nerf one of your sun breakers by forcing them to give up a critical move slot and possibly their held item (like a Choice item on Roaring Moon and Walking Wake) making them far worse overall.
Both of which end up sacrificing so much for not enough reward.

You also comes with the issue of mandating multiple Protomons to make it worth it which while yes, they are good Pokemon, it does force you to be a fairly constricted team like the following:
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Which gives up the option to run stuff like Dragonite, Baxcalibur, Kyurem, A Dual Steel backbone (With Both Hoodra and Archaludon), or a full power Dragapult/Lati (If they are your sun setters.)

Also you don't want this to happen.
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Ethereal Sword

Fezandipiti
is a Tiering Contributor
Getting out of sun, how has rain been? I feel rain is overshadowed by sun nowadays
Rain Dragon is hilarious (though I wouldn't say it's good - it's a great idea for a meme team if you want that). You have access to several rain """abusers""" - Walking Wake and Electro Shot Archaludon (we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here) but having to set rain manually with no Damp Rock definitely hurts. If you are interested, here is my day 1 DLC team for you to improve on, a rain dragon team that features this absolute beauty (/s) of a set:

:goodra:
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Rest
- Scald
- Thunder

Rain water remains viable, so that's probably a better choice if you want a rain team.
 

Neko

When you live for love, how precious life can be
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How good is Quaggy on Sand/Ground?
On sand no, the momentum sink quagsire brings kinda stinks there, you're better off dealing offensively whatever Quagsire checks defensively there. Also, sand ground is quite strapped in slots with Hippowdon covering the "physdef bulky" role for those kinds of teams

On sandless, it can have a slot on slower paced Ground teams as it works in tandem with clodsire to wall stuff and spread lots of entry hazards. Quaggy is also the best check to non dice Baxcalibur, Gouging Fire, Non Band Pao so there's that. Its passivity means that its likely to get dropped, especially if the team wants to cover threats like Ogerpon better, or wants to be more offensive in general.

I hope this answers your question
 

Pengairxan

D_RUNNIN
is a Pre-Contributor
Okay so thoughts on Pecharunt.
Speaking from a Poison perspective (shocking), this mon ended up much better than I thought it would.
To quote myself.
Pecharunt doesn't seem to really find a slot on Poison....

...this thing might be worse than Fez on Poison because at least Fez has the funny anti Lando killer set.
But I am a man(n co mercenary), and will admit when I am wrong because hoo boy, I was wrong. This thing is much more powerful and overall better than I thought it would be.

The set I've been running has been a Mean Look set given to me by Neko that I made adjustments too. Which has been doing wonders as an incredible wall breaker. Mean look allowing it to trap nearly every relevant physical attacking wall in the tier and 1v1 them easily with Hex. Now it does require either a self Poison from either Toxic, Chain or Sludge Bomb Toxic from a Corrosion mon, especially in the Steel and Poison Matchups, but something that can just sit on incredible walls like Clodsire, Gliscor and Alolan Muk and goes "Yeah, I got this" is incredible. Now it does require mandating two team slots for it (A Corrosion Toxic Spreader and This thing) which can remove more offensive pressure or one of the other physical walls but as of right now, it feels worth it.

That being said, if the meta becomes really Steel and Dark focused, it is going to have issues. Its coverage (which was one of my main gripes) is piss poor, Foul Play is the only notable non Poison/Ghost move it gets meaning anything that can absorb Toxic like Toxapex, Clodsire, Alolan Muk or Kingambit just hard walls this thing. Sure it can use a Corrosion Spreader but both have very limited longevity with both being forced between Boots, Sludge or an Air Balloon and neither being practically that bulky. And if they fall, the nut is far less useful and has to rely on something like Amoonguss to spread status which either means running Stun Spore and hoping it actually works for once in its fucking life (Like seriously, come the fuck on and do something already) or Spore and getting 1 turn Sleep and a singular Hex as a result.

But when it does work, it puts that fucking work in.
 
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Speaking from a position of unfamiliarity with the meta, has anyone found a way to make Sun work on dragon? It doesn't have any Drought users, but having four very good Protosynthesis abusers and a decent number of fast things that can learn Sunny Day seems like it ought to be worth considering.
Sun Dragon is a solution for a problem the tier (at least w/r/t ladder play) doesn't have right now, which is a plethora of super fat builds.

Ironically enough it was much more playable prior to RB/GF with just Cyclizar + Specs Wake + RM. Cyclizar losing Shed Tail killed this build, especially given that Sun builds fail in the mirror which just wasn't really a big deal pre DLC-2.
 
ladder log #1 - five dragons vs low ladder
I'm late on the dragon train but I was playing around with it yesterday on high ladder and had a LOT of fun
it felt so strong lmao so I figured, "okay, let's cut it down to FIVE DRAGONS to make it more enjoyable"
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not to go too in-depth with it, but it's just a classy build of:
scarf hwish / spdef pivot / twave SR def tank / SD shard / HexDarts
or in other words, my six dragons minus my evidently extraneous dragon dance sweeper

created a new alt and went at it; low ladder was not prepared for these five
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ignore the gen 7 AG games
some guy used the alt before me a long time ago but didn't register it
I wanted to finish in the 1600s but I lost 2 games towards the end, even finishing on one of those losses (goddammit trich)
but yeah! got "suspect reqs" with five dragons on a fun climb
might do a similar idea next time I'm bored
overall this gave me some good insight to the type, what it needs, how to play certain match ups, and the general climate on the ladder
I struggled a lot with steel and ghost so the 6th will take care of that moving forward
ground and fighting are favorable but have to be played carefully, fun matchup
a number of matchups seemed "free" even with just these five

dragon vs ground - close game but I threw cuz I was haphazardly clicking, find the turn where winning =100%, DM for answer lol
dragon vs bug - he gave up early, saw the writing on the walls, but bug is just generally free
dragon vs fairy - a 6th dragon might be too much
dragon vs flying - the iBones secret tech #32 got me REAL good, never seen that move yet
more in my replays if you search "five dragons", some vs flying, dark, etc. but overall an enjoyable experience messing around
 

roxie

https://www.youtube.com/@noxiousroxie
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Why should fairy teams forgo running klefki in the metagame
Klefki has priority screens and Spikes, but be aware that if it faints, Beat Up will be weakened. Tinkaton is another option for a Steel type with Knock Off and Stealth Rock support
Fezandipiti has a lot of options and my main concern is figuring out what it does in the metagame. Fairy has naturally been on the screens-Klefki support trend for a while. When I rank Fezandipiti I not only look at its role but it’s also what am I giving up in exchange for Fezandipiti. And it’s more difficult to justify seeing non-Klefki teams. Fairy teams recently however have been loving Primarina / Azumarill since Gouging Fire’s release and Screens + Spikes in this sense perfectly compliments this play style. The main things that comes to mind about Fezandipiti is: what exactly does Fezandipiti do better than standard builds, how should it be ranked in comparison to Galarian Weezing, and in this case how does Fairy benefit from non-Klefki in the metagame.
 
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DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
I've been playing Ice for a few days, and its been painful. Why? Two words.

SCARF URSHIFU-R

It can literally Close Combat everything on Ice (bar Froslass) and outspeed everything on Ice with Scarf. It can also carry Iron Head, which screws Froslass. Either I'm missing something or just because I'm bad, I can't fit Froslass on the team, and even then Scarf Shifu still wrecks the team.

Literally its unwinnable. I don't know if its a skill issue.

Fighting itself is really hard to beat with Ice. Sneasler only gets 2HKOed by the best prioity Ice has (Chien-Pao's Sucker Punch) and Close Combats in return. Zamazenta can Heavy Slam and Close Combat everything into oblivion.

Everything else works fine, I can outplay steel and beat it, verything else is fine and can be beaten with some big brain plays, but every water or fighting team (or poison with Sneasler), its literally an autolose.
 

Giyu

Tomioka
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
I've been playing Ice for a few days, and its been painful. Why? Two words.

SCARF URSHIFU-R

It can literally Close Combat everything on Ice (bar Froslass) and outspeed everything on Ice with Scarf. It can also carry Iron Head, which screws Froslass. Either I'm missing something or just because I'm bad, I can't fit Froslass on the team, and even then Scarf Shifu still wrecks the team.

Literally its unwinnable. I don't know if its a skill issue.

Fighting itself is really hard to beat with Ice. Sneasler only gets 2HKOed by the best prioity Ice has (Chien-Pao's Sucker Punch) and Close Combats in return. Zamazenta can Heavy Slam and Close Combat everything into oblivion.

Everything else works fine, I can outplay steel and beat it, verything else is fine and can be beaten with some big brain plays, but every water or fighting team (or poison with Sneasler), its literally an autolose.
Alolan Ninetales is 2HKOd under Snow so it wins in a one on one scenario, it also offers more Defense for teammates like Kyurem which threaten it. It's definitely a tough matchup, you'll need good game sense to play around but it's not unwinnable. Choice Scarf Chien-Pao can pick it off when weakened via Psychic Fangs and of course Froslass can setup Spikes to wear it down. Belly Drum Cetitan can carry Play Rough which effectively sweeps Fighting teams if it has proper support and positioning.
 
I have to ask, because this is kinda important. Will Monotype be following the ridiculousness OU is doing by banning sleep entirely? I know Monotype doesn't exactly follow OU, but I felt like this was important to ask because the ban indirectly hit every other tier below OU as a result. That and I wanted to start another discussion in this thread
 

Scarfire

is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
MPL Champion
I have to ask, because this is kinda important. Will Monotype be following the ridiculousness OU is doing by banning sleep entirely? I know Monotype doesn't exactly follow OU, but I felt like this was important to ask because the ban indirectly hit every other tier below OU as a result. That and I wanted to start another discussion in this thread
Highly unlikely unless sleep begins to foster as its own issue here. Monotype is generally unaffected by OU tiering; the other tiers are affected because they are all based around the same usage stats. OU through PU are connected by what gets used so therefore the bans apply across the board.
 

DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
Highly unlikely unless sleep begins to foster as its own issue here. Monotype is generally unaffected by OU tiering; the other tiers are affected because they are all based around the same usage stats. OU through PU are connected by what gets used so therefore the bans apply across the board.
Oh thank goodness
I did not agree
Btw does anyone run Scarf Chien-Pao when playing Ice?
 

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