Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #10: Who Let The Dogs Out (Zamazenta Suspect Test)

[Scarfire]

​

After our most recent surveys conclusion, the council has continued internal discussions and we have arrived at our 10th suspect of the generation; Zamazenta. This Legendary dog has been near the top of SV Monotypes threat list since it dropped into the tier, and has continuously had a growing impact. Its incredible physical defence, further bolstered by its ability Dauntless Shield, gives Zamazenta ample setup opportunity with Iron Defence + Substitute sets. Most types in the current metagame lack the tools to deal with an almost immediate +3 STAB Body Press, and Zamazenta adds more to the challenge by being difficult to revenge kill due to its impressive base 138 speed. Its bag of tricks also includes a vast movepool of coverage options, most notably Heavy Slam and Crunch, which allow it to deal with Fairy and Ghost types respectively. Many Zamazenta's have opted for choice options such as Choice Band or Choice Scarf, packing a strong STAB Close Combat, the aforementioned Heavy Slam and Crunch, and other coverage such as Stone Edge or Ice Fang. All of its sets demand different approaches for counterplay, and can be quite restricting for most teams.

That all being said, Zamazenta is far from perfection. While its versatility is incredible, each individual set faces its plethora of struggles. Iron Defence sets are very picky on what they can or can't afford to beat. Heavy Slam is needed for Zamazenta to be able give Fighting a chance at beating Fairy, and for helping Zamazenta itself to not get forced out by the likes of Flutter Mane, Hatterene, or Enamorus as easily. Crunch is needed for the wide number of Ghosts and Psychics of the tier, such as Ceruledge, Gholdengo, Dragapult, and the Lati twins. Substitute is rarely dropped as it prevents a lot of easy counter-play options with status moves from the likes of Toxic Clodsire and Gliscor. Sets such as Choice Band aim to remove the hassle of picking and choosing coverage, and going for fast and immediate kills, which in turn leaves Zamazenta more open to being revenge killed without its defence boosts, and is far more prediction reliant.

Despite its weaknesses, Zamazenta has caused a lot of grief within the tier, and with recently high support from both the community and council, a suspect for this Pokemon has now begun. Below are the councils thoughts on all three of the recently highlighted Pokemon; Zamazenta, Gouging Fire, and Gliscor. Members were asked to share what order of priority they believe action should be taken, and their opinions on each Pokemon. Zamazenta was chosen based off the cumulative vote placing it at priority number 1.

Council Opinions

Floss

I voted Zamazenta as the highest priority for tiering action for various reasons, such as its versatility to run a few dangerous sets that need to be carefully accounted for, as well as the threat its most common set in IDPress poses, which has been a staple of the metagame ever since Zamazenta has been available for usage. After that, I had believed Gouging Fire to be the next most pressing 'mon to handle, but the few weeks of MWP I've seen have left me slightly disappointed in Gouging, and made me warier of Gliscor. Gliscor's longevity due to its ability and Protect, paired with access to a range of moves that can make it frustrating to switch into easily despite its lack of immediate firepower such as Knock Off and Toxic, ensure that its presence does not deteriorate over the course of the game. Swords Dance sets also have the ability to ensure that passive checks are punished, making Gliscor's offensive ability something to watch out for instead of being an afterthought. Lastly, while I feel Gouging still could warrant a suspect down the line, I felt that it was not as concerning as Zamazenta or Gliscor for me, as things stood. I felt the version on Fire had more potential to be threatening in comparison to Dragon, but so far it has been relatively unexplored in MWP, and might be constrained due to the type. Meanwhile, while Dragon is one of the top types, Gouging is merely a cog in the machine rather than the engine that makes it tick. These reasons made me put Gouging as the least of my priorities in the current metagame.

Scarfire

I believe Gliscor is the most restricting Pokemon currently in the tier. It demands way too much for some types to even have checks to it, and even less Pokemon that can continue to force progress against it throughout a long drawn-out game. I genuinely feel like almost every single type in the tier barring Flying itself improves and feels smoother to play with Gliscor gone.Zamazenta I have similar thoughts about as a Pokemon itself. Key differences are that its support on Fighting does not make it seem as invincible, and checks for it DO exist. The issue lies in the checks limiting the types and just feeling bad to use outside of checking Zamazenta. Stuff like Sableye Dark, Haze Clodsire Ground, Haze Pex Water, or just being unable to win with Fire, all feel like restrictions you wouldn't want to/have to deal with if Zamazenta wasn't here.Gouging is also problematic in sneakier ways. I don't find its offensive aspects to be as damning to the tier, but defensively it gives Dragon too many outs against Pokemon that SHOULD be breaking it. Dragon's defensive double steel core is fantastic and all, but its simple to break down. With Gouging Fire however, it just stops so many Pokemon from winning. Stuff like Gholdengo, Valiant, Sneasler, Greninja, Darkrai, Primarina and so on come to mind; some of these Pokemon do have other checks on Dragon, but those checks are on limited time. Gouging can always live these guys' attacks, DD up, and threaten to win in return. It might not "win" right there on average, but forcing out every possible wincon really limits what you can do vs Dragon.

Leafium Z

Gouging Fire is my lowest priority at the moment because we already had a suspect test for it before, and I have the impression that metagame managed to adapt to it fairly well. Gliscor has an interesting story. As opposed to the other two currently in the chopping block, it didn't start out immediately as broken. Instead, a small but loud handful of players started to claim that it is problematic, and soon the agenda got traction. Sure, it can be extremely annoying and frustrating to deal with and the removal of Hidden Power and the lack of Ice moves distribution certainly favors it to become a piece of shit to remove, but is it actually broken or is it just very annoying, but still reasonably fair to deal with? I'm leaning towards the latter, but still don't know the answer yet.Zamazenta has been on the center of tiering discussions since forever and it's not difficult to see why. The most terrifying set, Body Press + Iron Defense, invalidates several types by itself, and if that isn't problematic by itself, the occasional Choice Band (which requires completely different answers from the previous set), also nukes a potential check/counter if the opponent happens to guess the wrong set (which is near impossible to do reliably from preview). Due to that, I think it should have higher priority on a upcoming suspect.

Azick

I don't particulary mind gouging on Dragon, its one of the best mons in the tier but I think most teams have a way of dealing with it. On the other hand CB sun boosted proto speed boosted raging fury is pretty much the strongest non set-up boosted attack in the tier and completely ridiculous to switch into, 2ohkoing walls and preventing revengers with its own speed boost and solid bulk. Zama has good set variety and ID can troll some types but overall I think outside of like Ground most viable types have relatively natural checks to it. Gliscor is a fat nuisance but I don't think its at all broken and can generally be played around by just not being overly-passive.

Style.css

Gliscor is by far the most polarizing of the 3 because of it's versatility and set variety. It's not only crucial to Flying but has been proven to be effective on Ground teams as well. First and foremost it's immunity to Toxic, in addition to recovery from being Poisoned allows Gliscor to have incredible longevity. It's set's vary from offensive to defensive with multiple varieties of each (Ex: Facade v Knock on offensive, Sub Toxic v hazards for defensive). Not only does this make Gliscor unpredictable in game but also difficult to consider when building.Zamazenta is more straightforward than Gliscor but just as restrictive (if not more in some cases) in the builder and in game. Despite having 3 viable sets (Band, Scarf, Sub ID) and knowing they are all relatively offensive in nature there are only so many things that a majority of types can do against a properly managed Zamazenta. Other types who have a clear weakness to it specifically become pigeonholed in the builder by needing to dedicate a team slot as a check. Gouging Fire has been discussed before and we all know the problems with it. The main reason I have it listed as 3/3 is because it's had a suspect before and was not banned. Before retesting it we should focus on other potential problems and see what that does.

Cielau

If gliscor is really annoying to face, I don't see him as a real issue for a suspect righ now. Especially when I also have to choice between zama or gouging. Zamazenta is a good candidat for a suspect, mainly due to his idpress set who centralize the meta. That's really easy to weaken the few answer u can have against this set (or not if u like playing the lowest rank types). But for me the mon who deserve the most a suspect stay gouging, cuz with him it's a double debate about how dragon centralize the metagame and how this mon centralize the metagame. Gouging is for me 70% of the reason why I could support a ban of heat rock.

Rio Vidal and Trichotomy will post their thoughts in the thread instead.

Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Zamazenta in Monotype. You are encouraged to post replays to prove your point.
You have to reach a COIL of 3170 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 2. The suspect test will last two weeks until Thursday January 9th @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -5). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Zamazenta will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this retest are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention (however if you want to ZMZTA is a suggested prefix), your suspect account must have never played a game in Monotype before this suspect test went up (we will know) or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this -- the account you use must never have played Monotype before the test, full stop.)
  • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Rio Vidal or Floss
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Rio Vidal

>>> View the suspect on this page: https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/65 <<<

GXE/Games to COIL

You may use this thread to discuss this Zamazenta suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have. You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects. Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.

 

[Trichotomy]

Dropping my thoughts on Zamazenta below as I didn't have time to put them in the survey above.

Definitions

Uncompetitive: elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

Broken: elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

I don't think there is much of a case for Zamazenta to be "broken" despite its excellent stat distribution, so I won't touch heavily on that and will rather look at the "uncompetitive" nature (or lack thereof) of Zama. As many similarly (and incorrectly) argued for Kingambit, Zama has the capability to balloon and reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result of games. Aided by its ability Dauntless Shield, the IDBP set renders some end-game interactions unavoidable. From experience, Ground, Fighting, Flying, Fire, Ice, Steel, Normal, and sometimes Dragon are forced into endgames where even perfect or near-perfect play is rendered irrelevant by the quick-boosting Zama. For example, in this replay between excellent Monotype player Chaitanya and pretty good Monotype player Scarfire, we can see that Zama was able to come in on Turn 20 and essentially win the game for Chait, despite Scarfire having played a very good game up to that point and getting a lucky burn on Zama.

However, we need to reflect and think if this capability to reduce player choice / interaction is to an extreme degree. After all, it is Monotype, and certain Pokémon naturally have this capability in certain matchups which is not necessarily due to uncompetitiveness (for example, Manaphy vs Ground + Water + Steel, Keldeo vs Steel + Dark, etc.). This is admittedly pretty subjective, but I'm of the belief that Zama warps too many matchups and interactions for it to be healthy for the current meta (and actually has other punishing viable sets to use like CB), and thus will be voting Ban.

 

[TheKart017]

I think the main issue I have with zamazenta is the speed. The only pokemon that outspeed it are pult, deo-S, eleki, and the 2 electrodes. This means in front of 99% of physical attackers, it can set up an iron defense BEFORE they attack. This means for fighting, the only thing they need to do, is get rid of all the special attackers and the ghost/fairy depending on if it's running heavy slam/crunch. It also does not help that it might have both because they have other ways of dealing with status. To give you how insane this is, take this calc

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. +3 248 HP / 8 Def Zamazenta: 188-224 (48.5 - 57.8%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That right, one of the strongest STAB physical attacks, super effective mind you, is not guaranteed to 2HKO it, that's how insanely bulky this is on the physical. Returning to the idea of special attackers, for most types, the pokemon that are meant to deal with zama are themselves the ghost/poison/psychic/fairy. This effectively means: if that pokemon does not have recovery, you are forced to save it for zama. Considering how your ghost/poison/psychic/fairy is meant to be your center-piece against mono fighting, mono-fighting players can leverage the threat of zama in the back to heavily pressure you in the early game. In addition, they don't even need to save zama, because they can force a ton of pressure, have your zama check be heavily weakened for a cleaner like val to finish the game. Although against types like psychic/ghost/fairy, fighting is heavily disadvantage, meaning zama is not broken, I do agree with trich that it is incredibly unhealthy as a result, will be voting Ban.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I do think how unhealthy Zama is is hyperinflated a bit here for the purpose of argument, and I don't know if I'd consider it's presence one that overtly warps the meta as it is claimed to.

To compare it to other mons banned for being overcentralizing in past metas, and just to give a basis for what I kinda look at with overcentralization in mind, Keldeo in ORAS is the primary example of overcentralizing a meta I think of. Despite the fact that Dark had solid mus into 2 of the best types at the time - Psychic and Flying, and was a pretty solid type overall, the sole existence of Keldeo led to Dark having near nonexistent usage in the tournament space since Sub-CM Keld was such an autoloss mu. Steel would be seen running Psywave Bronzong of all things, Ground ran less optimal builds in my opinion, as did many other types. Since the ban not only has the meta diversified, but Mega Gallade - another pokemon discussed as a potentially unhealthy mon - no longer is seen as anywhere near the problem it once was. The ban on one pokemon led to all 3 of the top types being nowhere near as dominant, more types finding a place in the meta, and a meta that previously was scared to run otherwise solid types now has more options to consider for tournament play.

When I look at Zama in the same line of thought of "is this overtly centralizing", even if to a less but still unhealthy degree, I do think there is an argument to be made but frankly I really don't think a Zama ban will have much of an effect on the current state of the meta. Trich listed Ground, Fighting, Flying, Fire, Ice, Steel, Normal, and sometimes Dragon as types that could face near autoloss situations in the endgame due to Zama's ability to setup. Realistically I don't see a Zama ban as increasing Fire's viability much - the autoloss to Dragon and Sand Ground while still having a difficult time with a number of other builds will make it a risky tour bring regardless of Zam. All the while Fire does have direct answers and counters, but Zama's presence is clearly not so overbearing that they become necessary to include on a team. Ice will improve, I suppose Rock would too, but both types will likely have a real bad Fighting mu regardless and I don't consider Zama to be the reason for their lack in usage. I really don't consider Steel to have that bad of a Zama mu, between Ghold, Skarm's ability to phase with hazard stack, and strong special scarves, Steel in my experience could often handle fighting fairly well and it's not like we're seeing shit like scarf Rachi or much change from a standard build in general to compensate for Zam. Similarly, while Fighting has a pretty good Dragon mu, I see dragon as a type that can provide multiple answers to Zama just fine without much deviation from its standard build. I do agree that Flying and Ground have been limited in build diversity due to Zama, but frankly the limitation on Flying isn't one that really matters when it's still a Top 2 type that still has multiple viable builds which handle Zama pretty well. Ground on the other hand does run less competitive options, but also is able to not only handle Zama with multiple checks (though perhaps an arguably less optimal build), while still seeing pretty decent tournament usage for a type that supposedly is hindered the most by Zama.

To put it another way, if we take Trich's list of types that struggle with it as the basis for where we see Zama being uncompetitive. 3 of the listed types (Flying, Dragon, Steel), I consider the top 3 in the meta - 2 of them overtly so (flying and dragon) with top 2 usage in MWP and both having over a 50% winrate, and all 3 of which I don't think become less viable due to Zama in any way. Another 3 types I really don't think will see much increase in viability or usage with a Zama ban (Ice, Rock, and Fire), with Fire not finding the necessity to run any of the direct counters it does have, making it seem Zama's presence isn't so overbearing that types need to go out of their way to answer it to be reasonable to use in the meta. One of the types listed is the mirror (fighting), which frankly is an iron valiant speed tie game 75% of the time. So ultimately we're narrowing down to Normal and Ground, both of which still have answers to Zama. These two types may increase in usage or viability but when I look at Zama as a whole it doesn't really feel like it's presence is warping the meta outside of Fighting being A instead of B I guess in VR.

As of now I'm still pretty undecided. Long term I think Zama is a mon that'll probably end up banned. I also think that if the goal of this suspect was to fix overcentralizing issues, then GF would've been the main mon I'd target. Gliscor too makes more sense to me in alot of ways for a first step. If we ban Zama and then see pretty much zero change in what's competitively viable or not outside of 2 already viable types having a bit more of an option in the builder and another already viable type having a bit better of a mu spread, then I don't know if we would've made the correct decision for a ban and likely focused on the wrong mon to target first.

 

[zIcarus]

I'll keep it short... I don't think the fighting type or Zamazenta is currently broken or unfun to play against or with. However I personally think with the power vacuum present after the gambit ban its definitely filled up a lot of space and overall I don't really see it as that healthy of a pokemon for the tier. With its multiple very viable sets and a very high skill ceiling for those who know what they're doing with it, I see this pokemon as a physical/defense Suicune on speed along with possibly new sets coming about and old sets evolving in some way and so on.

I will be voting Ban.

 

[Vlarcheops]

So here's my full opinion on Zamy, since I've been using Fighting a LOT of times:​

➥ While incredibly frustrating to deal with, it's NOT impossible to beat. Yes, it's set of Iron Defense and Body Press IS frustrating, though that doesn't mean it's impossible to beat. Even if this set is very popular, it has its fair share of disadvantages. This set can be a double-edge sword: it can be either extremely helpful, or being straight up useless. Usually this set has Body Press, Iron Defense and Substitute with a coverage move: either Heavy Slam or Crunch. Its main weakness is confronting a team with a type that resists Fighting (especially Body Press) to the point that in these type of situations Zamazenta becomes practically useless. Even with types, that Fighting (Body Press) hits for neutrality have a backbone to avoid being swept by this set. Let's take Grass for example: it has Sinistcha/brambleghast and Amoongus. These Pókemon give Zamazenta and his partners hard times due to their second/(first) typing and being physically defensive while havimng consistent recovery. Another point I wanna make is that it doesn't take a Pókemon resisting Fighting to cripple this set, there are many Pókemon out there who are (very) physically bulky that can stop his set-up sweep and can get rid of it with either strong attacks or Roar/Whirldwind. Take Ground for example: it has Hippowdon and let me tell you, its physical bulk is GREAT against Iron-Press Zamazenta. Hell, even by switching it, it sets up Sandstorm to avoid Zamazenta or recovery via Leftovers. Not only that, but it has Recover AND Whirlwind, meaning that is a Zamazenta even thinks of setting up in fromnt of it, it will blow it away with Roar. Ground has also Landorus-Incarnate: resists Body Press, hits hard with Psychic/STAB Earth Power and can be a huge helper. Outside of the boosting defense, its attack is pathetic (120 physical attack is great, but still...) with no 252 EX spread. The Iron-Press set has only Body Press as a dangerous attack and... that's it! With Substitute being mandatory on this specific set, it has to choose between Crunch or Heavy Slam (or even Stone Edge, but I never have seen someone use it on this set.). If you have Heavy Slam, you are walled by Ghost types and other bulky Pókemon resisting Steel. You choose Crunch, Fairy is gonna eat Zamy and its teammates alive (while not doing great damage to Ghost/Psychic types either).
Plus even the types WEAK to fighting have their own tactics: Dark has Sableye and Choice Scarf Greninja/Meowscarada, Steel has Skarmory, Gholdengo and Iron Crown, Normal has Zoroark-Hisui, Indeede and Ditto (While Ice being bad, it has Avalugg and physically defensive Articuno).

➥ Enough said, now let's move on the "Choice" set: the most common "choice" set is the Choice band set. While 120 physical attack is great, it's not groundbreaking, and physical Pókemon are known to have the short end of the stick: very physically bulky Pókemon running around, Rocky Helmet, Intimidate and WOWisp or burns/status in general (from Flame Body/Static). Not to mention it locks Zamazenta into a SINGLE move, meainng that the opponent can predict and switch for a Pókemon to fish the attack, locking it into a disadvantage. Plus Zama has the 4MMS (the 4 Moveslot Syndrome): it HAS to carry Close Combat for STAB, Crunch for Ghost/Psychic and Heavy Slam for Fairy, ther are absolutely mandatory to have for this set. Now the question rises. what do you want as a fourth move: Ice Fang for Ground/Grass/Flying types, Psychic Fangs for Poison/Fighting types or Stone Edge fpr Bug/Fire/Flying types? This is a hard question indeed, because it can cost Zamazenta and its teammates a win/loss depending on the opponent's team.

➥ For the Choice Scarf set, i feel like it's a waste, to be honest with you. Zamazenta has an impeccable 138 speed and it's one of the fastest Pókemon in the tier behind Dragapult, Deoxys-Speed and Regieleki, why would you bring a Choice Scarf? Just why? Yes, it can surprise other choice scarfers, but its VERY niche, plus you aren't quite strong with 232 EX spead, even regarding the 120 attack. Plus, if you THINK the other Pókeon has a Choice Scarf, you can just switch into a defensive Pókemon to take the hit and figure it out. The same things I said about the Choice band set, can also be applied here, but Zama has less power.

In all of this, I'd like to point out that Zamazenta is weak to hazards like (Toxic) Spikes, giving it a hard time to switch out, since it takes damage from them.

Therefore I will be voting DO NOT BAN! However, if you disagree or want to critisize my opinion, feel free to do it!

 

[Neko]

Most of my thoughts are in my previous post here, tho would like to add some to the discussion.

Let's take Grass for example: it has Sinistcha/brambleghast and Amoongus. These Pókemon give Zamazenta and his partners hard times due to their second/(first) typing and being physically defensive while havimng consistent recovery.

This is a weird example. Brambleghast and Amoonguss actually lose to Zamazenta, specifically because Amoonguss and Bramb both cannot break its Substitute (Bramb is assumed to be the Physical Attacking set which benefits from Wind Rider):

0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 76-90 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ Atk Brambleghast Poltergeist vs. +3 252 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 66-78 (17 - 20.1%) -- possible 7HKO

This makes it so that Sinistcha is the only mon checking Zama, which is great, except the choice band set will 2HKO it:

216 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 180-214 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its worth noting that Sinistcha will also need to check most of the type throughout the game, making it reasonable to wear down and eventually beat.

Take Ground for example: it has Hippowdon and let me tell you, its physical bulk is GREAT against Iron-Press Zamazenta. Hell, even by switching it, it sets up Sandstorm to avoid Zamazenta or recovery via Leftovers. Not only that, but it has Recover AND Whirlwind, meaning that is a Zamazenta even thinks of setting up in fromnt of it, it will blow it away with Roar. Ground has also Landorus-Incarnate: resists Body Press, hits hard with Psychic/STAB Earth Power and can be a huge helper.

Hippowdon has to be healthy enough to set sand throughout the game to phaze it out. You can also only phaze it out and not kill it; Hippo takes 37% Minimum with +3 Press, nearly 2HKOed by CB Close Combat.

Landorus is slower, +3 Body Press 2HKOs after Stealth Rock damage. If Lando is using a Choice Scarf set, invites in Gallade which threatens to murder everything on the type (unless you go hippo, but then you need Hippo healthy to phaze it).

Haze Clodsire 100% answers ID Zamazenta but hf swapping into Choice Band, as Ice Fang is a guaranteed 2HKO onto Clod. Even then, Haze Clodsire is an extremely passive mon that probably wouldnt exist without Zama (Toxic is much better).

very physically bulky Pókemon running around, Rocky Helmet, Intimidate and WOWisp or burns/status in general (from Flame Body/Static).

There's actually not much physically bulky Pokemon running around :tm:, Skarmory is specifically the only Pokemon running Rocky Helmet that can 1v1 all Zamazenta sets, while Flame Body mons like Moltres and Volcarona fear swapping in due to Stone Edge. Toxapex exists, is a Zama check, but it also has to check Zamazenta's team mates like Gallade, Sneasler, and Iron Hands which is a tall order.

Plus even the types WEAK to fighting have their own tactics: Dark has Sableye and Choice Scarf Greninja/Meowscarada, Steel has Skarmory, Gholdengo and Iron Crown, Normal has Zoroark-Hisui, Indeede and Ditto

Sableye provides free entry into Iron Valiant, Choice Scarf Meow plinks into Zamazenta, Choice Scarf Gren is answered by Gallade. Steel isnt too concerned about ID Zama yes, but Normal is unfortunate as Zoro-H is slower and gets 2hkoed by Heavy Slam, and Ditto cannot copy Zama behind a Sub.

For a rundown on other types, Cerul loses 1v1 to ID Zama (with Crunch), which means Fire needs Volcarona to have a better mu into this type, and even then Zamazenta with Scarf kills the said Volcarona by edging it with stones.

Dragon has to play hot potato and hope Zamazenta subs to get Pult (2hkoed by H.Slam after SR) in to try and damage it

Flying has to pray bleakwind will not miss or run one of Moltres (pray that Stone Edge isnt in Zama's toolkit) or Skarmory (which is again, can be taken advantage of by Fighting's team mates).

Zama has the 4MMS (the 4 Moveslot Syndrome)

Zamazenta's 4MMS honestly isnt as overblown as it is, since Close Combat / Ice Fang / Crunch solves most of its issues, and the remaining moves can be remedied by its team mates. The issue is its extremely high speedtier makes it difficult to answer properly, and making a mistake (i.e. swapping sinis into Choice Band Crunch) will cost you the game.

While Zamazenta isnt Baxcalibur levels of broken, I believe Zamazenta is too constricting in terms of what types you can use. For one, Normal teams which would otherwise have a good fighting chance vs Dragon and Flying isnt recommended rn because ID Zama is sadly just an FF. Because of these reasons, I'll be voting Ban on this suspect test.

Happy new year and I hope this helps in the discussions

 

[Jahkem]

I got my reqs a few days ago and was originally just going to vote without posting any thoughts. However, I feel something needs to be reiterated when it comes to Pokemon that can run a few different sets. Zamazenta is versatile, that much we can agree on. There’s several sets that fulfill different roles for Fighting teams. Zamazenta has a nice selection of coverage moves which gives it slight 4MSS. Zamazenta’s setup and breaking capabilities are to be respected and considered in the team builder. Now, with all that being said, let me talk about what I was hinting at in the beginning.

Zamazenta’s IDBP, Choice Band, and Choice Scarf sets are all fierce. However, you cannot run all 3 sets at the same time. Whenever I see arguments that goes, “You could prepare for this set… but surprise, it’s the other set and you lose.”, it reminds me of children playing Cops & Robbers when a child gets “shot” during the game, the child that was shot immediately responds with, “Nuh uh! I have a bulletproof vest!”, or, “Magic armor!”, or the classic, “You missed!” As demeaning as this analogy is, I mean no harm. On average, Zamazenta the IDBP set most common. So, typically, that’s the set that’s expected and prepared for and/or played around the most which isn’t wrong to do. If you run into Zamazenta that’s running some other set, then well played to that individual. There aren’t too many mons in the tier that has a set that has a 100% usage rate, so you’re going to run into their other sets sometimes. There was a small discussion in the Monotype Discord server about an individual running into SubCm Flutter Mane. It was said that that set isn’t common, but not unheard of to run into.

On ladder, if you run into someone using a different Zamazenta set and you lose to it, then you’ll keep that person and their team in mind for the next game if you run into them again. In tour play, if you’re expecting your opponent to bring Fighting, then you’re already considering any of the sets with a larger consideration to the IDBP set. If you are the one using Fighting, you decide which Zamazenta set to use for whichever matchups you want to have a better chance against. Another thing to consider is even if you run into the Zamazenta set you didn’t expect, it isn’t always a guaranteed loss and vice versa if you are the one using other Zamazenta sets. I don’t believe Zamazenta is broken, but I do believe it’s a strong threat to be respected. I also don’t believe that Zamazenta is some meta warping threat that needs to be removed from the tier. For that reason, I’ll be voting No Ban.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Zamazenta’s IDBP, Choice Band, and Choice Scarf sets are all fierce. However, you cannot run all 3 sets at the same time. Whenever I see arguments that goes, “You could prepare for this set… but surprise, it’s the other set and you lose.”, it reminds me of children playing Cops & Robbers when a child gets “shot” during the game, the child that was shot immediately responds with, “Nuh uh! I have a bulletproof vest!”, or, “Magic armor!”, or the classic, “You missed!”

Well, the problem they're pointing out isn't so much "every time you see a Zama it'll be the set that cooks your team", rather it's, "even though the team can handle band Zam or IDBP Zam, the existence of both forces 50/50s where if you don't predict correctly at it's first appearance you lose".
For some types like Flying, this is also where limitations in the builder come from when considering Zama. It's a lot easier to build a team that can handle IDBP Zama, for example, then it is to build one that can reliable answer both IDBP Zama+Band Zama without some form of risk imposed.
Generally speaking when I've seen this limitation, it's when trying fun builds like Rain Flying where having roles dedicated to mons like Pelipper weakens the backbone and eliminates space for Skarm. The 50/50 is probs worst for fighting weak types like Steel, which can also can fall victim since Band Zama already forces 50/50s between Close Combat and Crunch, and trying to answer IDBP could end up being a pivotal turn that seriously weakens your backbone if it ends up being a Band.

Anyhow, this was just to clear up the ban argument since the other DNBers I don't think accurately answered the problems posed. I'm still leaning DNB. It really isn't overcentralizing, and especially if the majority of types listed as having problem with Zama are literally the top types that seemingly aren't even going out of their way to try and further consider it in the builder, then I have a bit of a hard time imagining that Zama itself is playing such a warping role in the meta.

 

[Jahkem]

Well, the problem they're pointing out isn't so much "every time you see a Zama it'll be the set that cooks your team", rather it's, "even though the team can handle band Zam or IDBP Zam, the existence of both forces 50/50s where if you don't predict correctly at it's first appearance you lose".
For some types like Flying, this is also where limitations in the builder come from when considering Zama. It's a lot easier to build a team that can handle IDBP Zama, for example, then it is to build one that can reliable answer both IDBP Zama+Band Zama without some form of risk imposed.

I recognized that in my last paragraph.

Another thing to consider is even if you run into the Zamazenta set you didn’t expect, it isn’t always a guaranteed loss and vice versa if you are the one using other Zamazenta sets.

ladder 0

1500

1630

1760

If I could get the usage rate of Zamazenta’s sets from tournaments (unless I overlooked them somewhere), I’d post them too. The other sets are less common until you get to the top of the ladder and then it becomes close to that 50/50 prediction of which set you’ll run into.
-

For some types like Flying, this is also where limitations in the builder come from when considering Zama. It's a lot easier to build a team that can handle IDBP Zama, for example, then it is to build one that can reliable answer both IDBP Zama+Band Zama without some form of risk imposed.
Generally speaking when I've seen this limitation, it's when trying fun builds like Rain Flying where having roles dedicated to mons like Pelipper weakens the backbone and eliminates space for Skarm. The 50/50 is probs worst for fighting weak types like Steel, which can also can fall victim since Band Zama already forces 50/50s between Close Combat and Crunch, and trying to answer IDBP could end up being a pivotal turn that seriously weakens your backbone if it ends up being a Band.

In your earlier post, you said:

I do agree that Flying and Ground have been limited in build diversity due to Zama, but frankly the limitation on Flying isn't one that really matters when it's still a Top 2 type that still has multiple viable builds which handle Zama pretty well.

Flying has viable builds that can handle both sets; it’s hard to say what other builds will become more viable. Or whichever fun builds will be able to breathe more with Zamazenta removed. Although, the limitation on fun builds is still there against other things in the meta. Using your Rain Flying example, it would still be susceptible to opposing meta weather teams.
-

Anyhow, this was just to clear up the ban argument since the other DNBers I don't think accurately answered the problems posed. I'm still leaning DNB. It really isn't overcentralizing, and especially if the majority of types listed as having problem with Zama are literally the top types that seemingly aren't even going out of their way to try and further consider it in the builder, then I have a bit of a hard time imagining that Zama itself is playing such a warping role in the meta.

If your earlier post answered the problems the most accurately, then the rest of us on the DNB side should genuinely be piggybacking off your response. I believe you answered the problems beautifully by raising awareness that the players aren’t shying away from being certain top types regardless of Zamazenta’s presence in the meta. I was reiterating the contrast of encountering Zamazenta’s sets. There’s different factors that play into determining which set Zamazenta could be using: what Zamazenta is coming in on, sets/items of other teammates, how someone is playing, etc. It isn’t always easy determining Zamazenta’s set at a glance and that’s mostly why Zamazenta is seen as such a problem by the Ban side.

 

[Aschmaros]

I wanted to come and give my opinion regarding this suspect test. Even though I have many gripes with Gen 9 metagame and will not get reqs for this suspect test for variety of reasons, I wanted to give my thoughts regarding some of the arguments presented in this thread. I'm quite puzzled by some of them and would like further clarification. I'm admittedly not good at formulating my thoughts well but I hope they come off clear here.

The first thing is, is that I'm seeing some arguments be misconstrued or frankly not sufficient. For example, Trichotomy's argument wasn't that Ground, Fighting, Flying, Fire, Ice, Steel, Normal and Dragon couldn't beat zamazenta by "experimenting in builder" (You mean to tell me these types already weren't when zamazenta isn't some new problem in the meta but has long since been a staple and one of the problems?), but rather that even if they played perfectly and made no mistakes zamazenta could still come in and reverse the game state and win just from its def boost alone. As we know not everyone will be playing this matchup "perfectly", this doesn't include the fact that you could very well lose key components of your team or a good chunk of it due to the set variety of Zamazenta to begin with. As TheWyvernKing mentioned, Zamazenta's existence causes extreme 50/50's of win or loses for a variety of types. Trich only mentioned types that could play perfectly but still lose because of zamazenta's existence, so there could be more types that could lose decidedly because of other factors of Zamazenta (I.E its multiple threatening set variety) that weren't mentioned yet. Is that not already overcentralizing especially since from the discussion had fighting doesn't need to do anything different in return atleast in builder but I could be wrong. People have mentioned some mons that could deal with zamazenta, but again that's looking at zamazenta in a vacuum of "1v1" with some even being against specific sets not all of them, which is not reality. Neko already went over the mons suggested that could "check" or "Counter" zamazenta where all of them either need to play perfectly the entire game or fighting can easily exploit said mon by switching and gaining an advantage.

This is just a personal gripe, but I always hated the disregard for "lower tier" types in these suspect test discussions because I find the philosophy wrong inherently. I said this because I'm seeing semblances of that philosophy coming into play even for when people mention the "top tier types" struggling to answer zamazenta. I do not find the argument that just because a top tier type is still top tier despite this zamazenta problem a sufficient one. In particular TheWyvernKing mentioned this argument for Flying and even Jahkem in his most recent post. If we eliminate the underperforming types and focus solely on "the good ones" as "the meta" then we go back to the first argument that Zamazenta's existence still causes extreme 50/50's for even the top tier types to where they need "to experiment" to have a chance of beating a (not all) Zamazenta sets not including the rest of fighting and the rest of the metagame. Hence why people argue its constricting teambuilder and overcentralizing.

Lastly, nobody is suggesting Zamazenta as the sole reason for the unbalanced in the metagame right now. From what was discussed the community think its Gouging Fire, Zamazenta, and to a lesser extent Gliscor. I do not see merit in passing on zamazenta to go into a gouging fire or gliscor suspect test because "it isn't the real problem" when clearly it is a problem that is already a huge problem NOW that will only get worse if we pass on banning it.

Again, I could be wrong, so I would like people to correct me if so.

TLDR: I do not find the arguments presented by the DNB side sufficient and flimsy at present and would like clarification from them to better help understand their position.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

This is just a personal gripe, but I always hated the disregard for "lower tier" types in these suspect test discussions because I find the philosophy wrong inherently. I said this because I'm seeing semblances of that philosophy coming into play even for when people mention the "top tier types" struggling to answer zamazenta. I do not find the argument that just because a top tier type is still top tier despite this zamazenta problem a sufficient one. In particular TheWyvernKing mentioned this argument for Flying

As I said, I was undecided, and part of the reason for being undecided is the fact that even if there's some truth to the Zam Ban argument - the argument made itself is entirely exaggerated.

When I was highlighting the top types, the points being made were A: The 3 "Top Types" pointed out in particular (Steel, Flying, Dragon), frankly speaking, already answer Zama with a standard build. Not only that, but when deviating from the standard build you still end up with something that answers Zama 90% of the time. I wasn't trying to highlight them as types of greater importance, rather, I was trying to showcase the fact that Zama being "overcentralizing" is pretty much an exaggeration and wrong argument for ban in this case. The most defining elements of the meta (which are supposed to be suffering at the hands of Zama) largely take it in stride without needing to really adjust in the builder.

Let's say you want to build dragon - one of the types highlighted. Dragon always carries a Dragapult for example, which has multiple viable and common set options to check the IronPress set with some also effectively halting the band set in it's steps - such as the HDB Will o or subhex sets. Latios or Latias are on most builds as well, with some variants running both together since they fulfill different roles on a team. Your average dragon will as a result just about always have 2 mons minimum pretty much built in in the builder that can check Zama. You can make the argument that "Zamazenta forces you to run the same build", but honestly, even this isn't true as many of Dragon's less viable options genuinely help in the mu vs. Zama as well - Kommo-o eating 2 bpresses and hitting behind sub, I honestly love Kommo-O on drag, not at all a necessary or top viability mon but it hits hard with specs and is pretty fun and underrated. Raging Bolt also having crazy bulk and doing near 50% with tbolt before forcing 50/50s can help and is pretty useful in the fighting mu, Dragalge which I've seen once or twice in tournament play resisting fighting and hitting back with adaptability sludge/draco. Even though I frankly don't think I'd run these mons in a tournament, it's not like Dragon is restricted from using them because of Zama. Moreover, it's not like Dragon needs to go out of it's way to address Zama either.

Steel and Flying, similarly, aren't really going out of their way to try and get a better Zama matchup. Even though Zama may be strong into Flying, Fighting's solid Fly game in my opinion moreso stems from mons such as Iron Valiant for example which can cook Flying Cores and options like Iron Hands and Shifu which are also solid into Fly. Steel on the other hand always has Ghold and Skarm, and generally speaking it's a pretty neutral and playable matchup that I don't think really exemplifies Zama as a problem mon in any way.

So rather, the ban argument in my eyes stems from Zama's effect on 5 types: Ice, Rock, Normal, Ground, and Fire.

You are correct in stating that lower tier types shouldn't be dismissed, though normally this is done since you can't actually make all things equal in monotype. Scizor, for example, is notorious for being a pretty autowin mon in past gens vs. Ice, with the type needing to go out of their way to get a check with the likes of HP Fire Cloy to have a chance of counterplay (though a competent scizor user would still ultimately win). Scizor was obviously not banned, not because of dumb philosophy, but moreso in recognition that it was a structural flaw on the part of Ice in this case. That is to say - banning Scizor would effectively be a ban that only limited tier diversity, worsened bug and steel, and did so without really resolving the inherent issues of Ice. In this case, I am a bit mistaken actually. I don't know if I can say Rock will have a chance vs. Zamless Fighting - as mons such as Shifu will still be hell to deal with - but Zam going would help make way for Rock counterplay in the form of mons such as Minior and Iron Boulder. Similarly, even though Ice does have counterplay to Zama in my opinion (Avalugg wins the 1v1 though fighting can just switch out and w/e, and I think there's some dumb options too like defensive cuno but w/e), Zama also helps provide Ice with more counterplay in the form of both Cetitan having an easier time trying to sweep, and Weav outspeeding all of Fighting unboosted. This is to say, Zama going may allow Ice/Rock to have a pretty playable Fighting matchup and potentially be a bit better into this meta than we thought, but I still don't believe for a moment that it's the Ice and Rock matchups that actually brought us here.

Aside from those 2, Norm obviously will benefit from Zama going, it does have checks but they're a bit shaky, and idt Normal beats Fighting with Zama gone either. Ground does free up a bit, though I think that moreso pertains to sand ground since I think sandless runs quag anyhow. Lastly, Fire isn't a real part of this argument if Fire fully has 3 solid counters to IronPress and decides to run zero of them. Yes, Fire will improve, but genuinely speaking Fire's stubborn playing style and continued usage moreso shows to me that you fully can choose to ignore Zama in this meta if you wanted to.

My argument, since the start, was that Zama's problem is being over-exaggerated. I have shifted a bit towards the ban side. Not because of any argument here frankly. Reading half the DNB side has given me an aneurism and it seems like we've kinda avoided a genuine discussion, and rather have spent a page correcting bad takes. Even though I think Zama's presence is being over-exaggerated a bit. When I think of the longterm prospects of this meta, and look for a solution on what changes would in fact allow for the most meta diversity, most viable options in playstyle, and would ultimately allow for alot of the builds that I want to use to become an actual possibility, I still see Gouging as the main limiting factor. That being said, Zama itself is a problem in a number of ways that I think furthers these limitations. I think the plan is still to wait till like the last day to vote so it ends before I have to play a part in the process...

 

[Aschmaros]

Thank you for the clarification, also I would like to add that I mentioned the disregard of lower types not out of "They should be considered in these discussions more" standpoint but merely saying that I saw semblances of the arguments used for the disregard of lower types being applied to some of the examples of higher performing types in this thread. I should've made that clearer in my post.

 

[Jahkem]

I wanted to come and give my opinion regarding this suspect test. Even though I have many gripes with Gen 9 metagame and will not get reqs for this suspect test for variety of reasons, I wanted to give my thoughts regarding some of the arguments presented in this thread. I'm quite puzzled by some of them and would like further clarification. I'm admittedly not good at formulating my thoughts well but I hope they come off clear here.

The first thing is, is that I'm seeing some arguments be misconstrued or frankly not sufficient. For example, Trichotomy's argument wasn't that Ground, Fighting, Flying, Fire, Ice, Steel, Normal and Dragon couldn't beat zamazenta by "experimenting in builder" (You mean to tell me these types already weren't when zamazenta isn't some new problem in the meta but has long since been a staple and one of the problems?), but rather that even if they played perfectly and made no mistakes zamazenta could still come in and reverse the game state and win just from its def boost alone. As we know not everyone will be playing this matchup "perfectly", this doesn't include the fact that you could very well lose key components of your team or a good chunk of it due to the set variety of Zamazenta to begin with. As TheWyvernKing mentioned, Zamazenta's existence causes extreme 50/50's of win or loses for a variety of types. Trich only mentioned types that could play perfectly but still lose because of zamazenta's existence, so there could be more types that could lose decidedly because of other factors of Zamazenta (I.E its multiple threatening set variety) that weren't mentioned yet. Is that not already overcentralizing especially since from the discussion had fighting doesn't need to do anything different in return atleast in builder but I could be wrong. People have mentioned some mons that could deal with zamazenta, but again that's looking at zamazenta in a vacuum of "1v1" with some even being against specific sets not all of them, which is not reality. Neko already went over the mons suggested that could "check" or "Counter" zamazenta where all of them either need to play perfectly the entire game or fighting can easily exploit said mon by switching and gaining an advantage.

The claim that Zamazenta forces perfect play to counter is exaggerated. While Zamazenta is undeniably strong, its effectiveness can be mitigated by proper teambuilding and play making. For example, many defensive staples like Toxapex, Gliscor, and even Gholdengo, if you want to count its bulky spreads, can handle or pivot around Zamazenta’s common sets depending on the scenario. Offensive pressure from faster threats or Choice Scarf users can limit Zamazenta’s ability to snowball effectively. Zamazenta thrives on momentum but is far from an unstoppable force if players identify its set early and adapt accordingly. Competitive Pokémon inherently involves reads and adjustments, and Zamazenta is no exception.

The versatility of Zamazenta is a strength, but it is not unique in that regard. Pokémon like Dragapult, Heatran, and Lando-T have historically succeeded due to their ability to run multiple effective sets, yet they were not necessarily deemed overcentralizing or banworthy. Teams that prepare for Zamazenta’s physical bulk and offensive prowess can often adapt to its different sets without overloading the teambuilder. No single set of Zamazenta is unbeatable. Zamazenta’s flexibility is a challenge, but not an impossible challenge to face.

This is just a personal gripe, but I always hated the disregard for "lower tier" types in these suspect test discussions because I find the philosophy wrong inherently. I said this because I'm seeing semblances of that philosophy coming into play even for when people mention the "top tier types" struggling to answer zamazenta. I do not find the argument that just because a top tier type is still top tier despite this zamazenta problem a sufficient one. In particular TheWyvernKing mentioned this argument for Flying and even Jahkem in his most recent post. If we eliminate the underperforming types and focus solely on "the good ones" as "the meta" then we go back to the first argument that Zamazenta's existence still causes extreme 50/50's for even the top tier types to where they need "to experiment" to have a chance of beating a (not all) Zamazenta sets not including the rest of fighting and the rest of the metagame. Hence why people argue its constricting teambuilder and overcentralizing.

Balancing for the lower types has not been the focus of Monotype for a long since this is a competitive metagame where not all types are equal. The metagame is designed around the better types, and while diversity is encouraged, balance cannot revolve around ensuring every type has an equal chance against every threat. As Wyvern has stated, even the better types can adapt through teambuilding and/or experimentation. This suggests that Zamazenta, while a significant threat, does not inherently break the meta.

The 50/50 argument is a natural part of competitive Pokémon. High level play often involves prediction wars, and Zamazenta is not unique in creating these situations. Mons like Iron Valiant and Dragapult have similarly forced difficult choices for opposing players, but their presence did not inherently justify bans. Zamazenta’s ability to flip game states relies on effective prediction and capitalizing on your opponent’s mistakes, which is true for many offensive threats.

Zamazenta is a powerful Pokémon, but it does not meet the threshold of being broken or unmanageable. Zamazenta’s presence encourages creative teambuilding and rewards thoughtful play, both of which are tell tale signs of a healthy metagame. The arguments for banning it often overlook the inherent checks and counterplay options available and focus disproportionately on theoretical scenarios rather than actual gameplay dynamics.

 

[Neko]

For example, many defensive staples like Toxapex, Gliscor, and even Gholdengo, if you want to count its bulky spreads, can handle or pivot around Zamazenta’s common sets depending on the scenario

For clarification, this is not true. Gholdengo and Gliscor never like CB. The only true 100% foolproof swap ins to Zamazenta are Skarmory, Pecharunt, and Toxapex. In fact, Gliscor even loses 1v1 vs ID Zama in most scenarios.

Offensive pressure from faster threats or Choice Scarf users can limit Zamazenta’s ability to snowball effectively.

As of writing, the only faster threats right now are Dragapult (and Regieleki/Weather sweepers). The rest need to be Choice Scarfed, and if this is Sub Zama you get a hit before forcing Zama out, or if its Band Zama, well get your slower pivot in to get the scarfer safely. Worth noting that you cannot hard Dragapult or Regieleki (which isnt that viable because of the type...) regardless of set. The most common weather sweepers also do not OHKO Zamazenta (mainly due to daunltless shield, which is partly why its so infuriating to fight).

Mons like Iron Valiant and Dragapult have similarly forced difficult choices for opposing players, but their presence did not inherently justify bans.

These guys, even if they have millions of sets have a main flaw: They're not so bulky that a STAB Non Resist hit will make them rethink their life decisions and not hit the field unless its for revenge killing. Iron Valiant is also markedly slower, at the cost of being harder to wall. But thats fine, since Tornadus-T, Meow, and co. outspeed it. Meanwhile Dragapult is vulnerable to priority and doesnt hit as hard as it should, Will-o-Wisp sets not being as oppressive as Zama (as you need the specs power in most other matchups and fits Dragon's playstyle better).

Zamazenta’s presence encourages creative teambuilding and rewards thoughtful play, both of which are tell tale signs of a healthy metagame.

This seems relative but I feel having an Iron Defense/Band mon at this speedtier is more constricting than it is creative. That is, if types like Fire, Dark, or Ground have to go out of their way to not get overwhelmed, or Normal/Ice going kaput because it really just loses to zama lol, I think Zama gone does more good.

As an extra question, what is Fighting's response to Sub ID-H.Slam Zama, aside from its own Zama anyway?

Edit: Also @ top types not needing much edits to be fool proof vs Zama, I feel like this isnt really a talking point. Top types are top types for a reason. Flying had Chien-Pao, Kingambit, Ursa-B checks, same for Dragon, but all of these got banned since it was too much vs the rest of the meta anyway. Idk, it doesnt seem right to talk about at least.

I hope this clarifies some stuffs

 

[Jahkem]

For clarification, this is not true. Gholdengo and Gliscor never like CB. The only true 100% foolproof swap ins to Zamazenta are Skarmory, Pecharunt, and Toxapex. In fact, Gliscor even loses 1v1 vs ID Zama in most scenarios.

While Choice Band poses a significant threat, the absence of foolproof answers isn’t unique to Zamazenta, it’s true for many strong mons. Mons like Dragapult, Urshifu, or past threats like Chien Pao and Kingambit could similarly overwhelm supposed “checks” in certain scenarios. This has always been a part of competitive play. Gliscor and Gholdengo are not hard counters, but they serve as pivots or can force Zamazenta into unfavorable trades depending on its moveset. The metagame isn’t built around having perfect counters, but rather tools to manage threats. Additionally, relying solely on foolproof counters ignores the broader toolkit available to teams.

As of writing, the only faster threats right now are Dragapult (and Regieleki/Weather sweepers). The rest need to be Choice Scarfed, and if this is Sub Zama you get a hit before forcing Zama out, or if its Band Zama, well get your slower pivot in to get the scarfer safely. Worth noting that you cannot hard Dragapult or Regieleki (which isnt that viable because of the type...) regardless of set. The most common weather sweepers also do not OHKO Zamazenta (mainly due to daunltless shield, which is partly why its so infuriating to fight).

While faster threats are limited, they still exist and are significant. Dragapult, Regieleki, and certain Choice Scarf users are strong enough to pressure Zamazenta. IDBP trades raw damage for utility, which inherently makes it weaker against offensive teams. It must choose its moments to come in carefully, and any misplay costs it momentum. Mons like Dragapult and Scarfers may not hard switch into Zamazenta, but they force it out or keep it in check by exploiting its predictable moves. Moreover, the slower pivot strategy mentioned for Band sets is a common way to handle strong offensive threats. It’s not unique to Zamazenta, it applies to many offensive threats in the meta.

These guys, even if they have millions of sets have a main flaw: They're not so bulky that a STAB Non Resist hit will make them rethink their life decisions and not hit the field unless its for revenge killing. Iron Valiant is also markedly slower, at the cost of being harder to wall. But thats fine, since Tornadus-T, Meow, and co. outspeed it. Meanwhile Dragapult is vulnerable to priority and doesnt hit as hard as it should, Will-o-Wisp sets not being as oppressive as Zama (as you need the specs power in most other matchups and fits Dragon's playstyle better).

While Iron Valiant and Dragapult have their weaknesses, they also bring similar levels of unpredictability to the table. Valiant’s coverage and mixed attacking sets are exceptionally difficult to wall and demand careful teambuilding, even if it is slower. Dragapult’s speed tier and versatility (Specs, Will o, Dragon Dance) create many situations where players face similar prediction scenarios as they do against Zamazenta. Zama’s bulk and offensive presence make it strong, but these traits aren’t inherently unhealthy. It’s simply another example of a strong mon requiring proper management.

This seems relative but I feel having an Iron Defense/Band mon at this speedtier is more constricting than it is creative. That is, if types like Fire, Dark, or Ground have to go out of their way to not get overwhelmed, or Normal/Ice going kaput because it really just loses to zama lol, I think Zama gone does more good.

Teambuilding around Zamazenta may require effort, but it also opens up opportunities for innovation. Fire and Dark have ways to manage Zamazenta without becoming unviable. These adjustments represent adaptation, not restriction. The mention of Normal and Ice losing to Zamazenta feels overstated. Neither of these types are exactly dominant in the first place, and their struggles against Fighting types are inherent to their typing rather than Zamazenta alone.

As an extra question, what is Fighting's response to Sub ID-H.Slam Zama, aside from its own Zama anyway?

Watching the Fighting Monothreat games was interesting and slightly informative. Seeing things like Roar Great Tusk, Scarf Gallade, and Toxic Spikes Sneasler opened my eyes to broader methods Fighting has in the occasional mirror. This ties back into my mention of creative teambuilding. Dragon Expert Soma will sometimes use Brick Break Roaring Moon on his Dragon team to combat Screens against Fairy. This is adjustment isn’t even drastic, but that adjustment helps gives him an edge in some cases. People can change their teams to accommodate certain threats. However, this is sometimes decided against due to an inherent fear of losing out on other matchups. That seems more of a mental restriction than a centralizing mon restriction to me.

Edit: Also @ top types not needing much edits to be fool proof vs Zama, I feel like this isnt really a talking point. Top types are top types for a reason. Flying had Chien-Pao, Kingambit, Ursa-B checks, same for Dragon, but all of these got banned since it was too much vs the rest of the meta anyway. Idk, it doesnt seem right to talk about at least.

Fair point, I agree that the top types are going to do great regardless. Although, I’d like to raise another point since the metagame is balanced around the top types, mentioning their comps, adjustments, and gameplay is a natural talking point for these debates.

 

[Neko]

Mons like Dragapult, Urshifu, or past threats like Chien Pao and Kingambit could similarly overwhelm supposed “checks” in certain scenarios. This has always been a part of competitive play.

Chien-Pao and Gambito are banned, Urshifu has a more manageable speedtier (even considering Aqua Jet, that SD, Scarf, and Band sets are within reason), and Pult has its weaknesses as mentioned earlier.

Additionally, relying solely on foolproof counters ignores the broader toolkit available to teams.

I would argue that the "broader toolkit" isnt as broad as one would expect due to the sheer bulk/speed/snowball potential of Zamazenta. Its true that we shouldnt be looking at foolproof counters, but generally Fast Pokemon are frail, like how people even deal with Flutter Mane, and Bulky setup Pokemon like Gholdengo and Skarmory have weaknesses in speed and/or bulk. Zamazenta has the bulk, speed, and coverage/setup, making it a problematic element in monotype.

While faster threats are limited, they still exist and are significant. Dragapult, Regieleki, and certain Choice Scarf users are strong enough to pressure Zamazenta. IDBP trades raw damage for utility, which inherently makes it weaker against offensive teams.

There's very few Choice Scarf users that actually pose a threat to Zamazenta, which only includes Enam, Landorus, Latis, Greninja, Iron Valiant, and (Flutter Mane/Gholdengo). Choice Scarf users ...just dont have recovery and sub would mean they have to take damage before being able to reduce Zamazenta's HP/forcing the Dog out. Of mentioned, some of these are actually quite frail, meaning if the dog keeps getting entry into the opposing team, it will inevitably overwhelm the scarfer. Which means you still need someone to keep it in check later after all.

I would argue IDBP is more terrifying for fully offense teams (i.e. Fire, non Double Lati Dragon) rather than band though. For instance you're forced to send out your fastest mon immediately to prevent this quickboosting zama to go out of control, as you wouldnt have tools like Encore, Whirlwind, etc.

Watching the Fighting Monothreat games was interesting and slightly informative. Seeing things like Roar Great Tusk, Scarf Gallade, and Toxic Spikes Sneasler opened my eyes to broader methods Fighting has in the occasional mirror.

These are interesting but Roar Tusk eventually loses unless its using a boosting move too due to the lack of recovery + 4mms of Tusk, Scarf Gallade is ....a novelty as losing bulk makes you a poor check to Latios, which is likely why you put it in the first place. TSpikes Sneaker is countered by Fighting having a Poison type to begin with though.

@Dragon Expert Soma will sometimes use Brick Break Roaring Moon on his Dragon team to combat Screens against Fairy

I dont think its actually for fairy due to Dragon's access to Pult, but anyway do you really want people to run otherwise unviable moves on a mon just to keep Zamazenta in?

People can change their teams to accommodate certain threats. However, this is sometimes decided against due to an inherent fear of losing out on other matchups. That seems more of a mental restriction than a centralizing mon restriction to me.

Yes, there's too many matchups to cover in monotype right now because honestly the powerlevel of monotype is screwed. If the power level is lessened, then perhaps teams can be more creative? For instance, in Kingambit meta, is Chople Kingambit creative or just a cope to not lose to opposing Kingambit? Or in Chien-Pao, would any "sane" Flying team not run Skarmory?

People want to win, and therefore will tech teams even to the point of overprep if they feel x type is coming, even at the cost of matchups against other types. You cant really go swinging with Normal for instance or go Fire without Volcarona or Ceruledge considering that CB/ID Zama are about equally as common.

 

[WhiteQueen]

As a Flying-type gym leader, my take might be biased since I don’t lose to Zamazenta often. But honestly, the dog feels predictable and easily countered. From what I’ve seen, bulky Pokémon like Gholdengo and Toxapex almost completely wall it, and both are everywhere on Steel and Water teams, two of the most common types. Fighting as a monotype struggles to keep up in the current metagame, so banning its arguably best ‘mon feels unnecessary. It’s a No Ban for me.

 

[Rio Vidal]

Zamazenta voting is now up!
https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/65

tags

Scarfire
Parker7
Azick
Leafium Z
maki
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Floss
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memomiguel
RoyalReloaded
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hammy3581
zIcarus
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Cow
Khahara
ImprobableBlob
Ethereal Sword
TheWyvernKing
Rio Vidal
MemphisDepay
Dragon Expert Soma
Trichotomy

 

[Rio Vidal]

Zamazenta has received enough votes to be banned from Monotype.

Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement this!

Thank you to those who've voted. If you have 4 votes in Monotype or 10 tiering votes across multiple tiers and qualify for the Tiering Contributor badge as a result, you may PM me with the links to all of your votes.