Hey, so I'm playing the tier since the beginning and just got the reqs with Fighting because it seemed the faster way for me to do it.
First, huge thx to
Ethereal Sword for the
MWP Stats , I think the doc brings something really clear concerning Dragon as a whole.
To summarize very quickly, this doc is showing :
- Dragon was the most used type during this tour : 42 games out of 127 (one third of the total games)
- Dragon had the best winrate too during this tour, with 66% (in comparaison : the second and only type close to it, above 60%, was Fighting Zama with 19%)
I'm not doing any parallels with the other tiers (SS, BW, Oras...) because we work with a far more limited pool in each of these tiers so it wouldn't be relevant.
That's it for the MWP facts : dragon was the best type in the tournament, with Archa (41 games of out 42), Pult (40), Gouging (37) and Hoodra (35) as by far the most used mon, above 80%.
Subjectively speaking (just my opinion), I think this kind of dynamic is pretty not good for the tier : we speak about a known top 1 type for a while, we prep a lot for it arguably but the type is still the best, with overall the best results + one of the safest way to win. Each tier have top tiers and meta defining things for sure, but here, it seems just very unhealthy (the stats are pretty absurd to me, for example).
In my opinion, the issue is indeed Gouging. I'm not even talking about DD, I'm talking about how this mon can just help so much the dragon defensive core structure and can just stop progress of a lot of types tanks to its bulk + typing. A lot have been already been said, but for me the issue is not even DD at this point (pretty restrictive in the building in my opinion, but it's because I'm more of an offensive player, fat does indeed pretty well vs Gouging in general), but the fact that the mon can just shut down a lot of progress vs dragon is, I think, the thing that brings dragon to the top. You can have a whole lot of freedom with your tios, pult, or whatever 600 BS you want, because the defensive core is elevated SO MUCH (always imo) by GF (who can just win on its own with DD, this dog is a cheater), to a very unhealthy point to me. The primarly role is to shut down a lot of things (and that's where the adaptation in a lot of teams is also coming from too imo, not only vs DDance), and secondary because it's bonus, you can just win games with DD.
I played all the types on ladder with a lot of games each (I mean I have an alt for each type + countless alts on my own) because I love to build and explore what we can do with the tier. The tier is shifting a little with the ban Zamazenta and it's a good thing to see, a lot of types can do more stuff with this thing gone, and that's some space we can dedicate to dragon : for me that's why Gouging seems less good currently for the first time since Gouging was here (remember, Dragon didn't have to adapt at all compared to other types at this point and was still top 1). For Dark for exemple, we can run U-TURN mandi instead of sableye (really a present, and broken, for dark) way more easely because you have less fear to just lose on preview vs Zama. Hamurott popped off too but for me it was a very good mon for a long time vs Dragon because of SD + Sacred + Double Dark move.
It's always my opinion so it's not saying a lot (subjective), but I think this dog is insanely restrictive as a whole (have to account band on fire in builds too). I'm not talking about 1v1 situations because the game isn't like that at all for me (I mean for example I SPAMMED bug and no : nid Idef is just fodder for like all the mons besides Gouging, and Bug isn't very good defensively vs dragon so it doesn't work well in my experience) but it's more of a awful game : you want to dedicate slots vs gouging (+ the defensive core overall), and the answers you have doesn't do well vs the rest of the type. The issue, at least for me, is that a lot of types can handle Gouging more or less easely (even grass and bug) but the issue is that at the end of the day, you'll do less progress in the game than Dragon can do, because the defensive core is pretty hard to break. That's why Pokemons like Hamurott, Mono Ground or even Valiant before Gouging are good in general vs Dragon : you can make progress without making too much sacrifices in the builder. I mean sure each type can break Archa/Hoodra/Gouging (more or less easely but still), but can they while not losing vs the 3 others mons at the same time ? That's the real problem for me. It's possible considering the type, always more or less easely, but it's really really difficult and I mean the results Dragon have since Gouging is here talk for themselves. For me it's not accounting for just Gouging (remember, being defensive is it's primarly role, but ingame you have to keep stuff to not lose vs DD), but the entire teams Dragon runs who is a challenge. Sure we have options, hazard stack is always very good (if you have access to) for example, or the core is primarly weak to ground, neutral vs fight, dark ghost, etc etc. It's clearly not umbreakable and have exploitable flaws, but it's enough to allow the 3 others Mons to win on their own, or make way more progress than you do.
For example, the reason why Fairy can struggle vs Dragon is because Pult (or whatever offensive mon dragon have, even Tios or Bolt or Wake) is because when Flutter (or whatever) comes, it's just not making progress as hard as the Dragon mons.
For Fighting when Zama was here, we actually saw an adaptation with Double Lati@s (not only for fight ofc but the type was a reason) because Fighting could actually do progress as easely as Dragon (cc vs the def trio goes hard) : so Dragon, in order to help in this MU, played double Lati to just try to overwhelm Fighting at the end.
I can explain this situation with my own worlds and how I see the game with all the types, but I think it's good here.
So here, where's the issue for me ? On the defensive core or the offensive one ?
For me it's clearly on the defensive one : we can axe Pult if we want (don't saying it isn't at least top tier lmao), the fact that the defensive trio (+ DD wincond cheater) can work well enough will always be an issue : all the offensive 600 BS have all the room they want to go wild, not forced to be on the terrain just to trade a thing or make not enough progress for you in the game. I mean that's why Dragon is so good at the first place. The worst thing is that you're not even forced to run this trio in your Bulky Offenses, only Archa + one of the two can work well (so a 4rth offensive threat), we saw that in MWP stats, even if it's really uncommon.
Where's the issue is this defensive core ?
It's way too easy for offensive mons to go wild if they're never forced to die (except for hazards in drag case) because Gouging can just check so much and force switch outs, and so progress, with DD in a lot of MUs. You can't just say "I'll spam until I die" for positionning, because it means letting the thing DD, and that's why the move is good for me, even if it's not winning :
- Ingame : it forces you to go on paths (being more passive if you have a passive check, or agressive if you don't want the thing to setup 2 DDs) that can just put you in a very bad shape vs the rest of the type actually. It's the case of a lot of bulky setup mon to be honest, but here's the big difference between Gouging and the others :
- Build : on the building. Ok we have types that do well vs this thing, but for others I'm sorry but it's way too dire to check Gouging as long as all of the Drag team. This mon is too much, and restricting the teambuilding imo (and I tested and played a lot all the damn types in the game). Here, we know how to answer it so I'll not talk too much : balloon tran, mandi + pressure for dark, water naturally but Gouging at least checks gren, tusk for fight but you have to keep it now unless you have sd shifu or an other mon like that, etc etc. The first issue is that way too much types have to answer this Mon, + Dragon, + the whole damn metagame : and the stats tells us it's not easy at all. The second issue is that the check has to do some kind of progress vs Dragon, because otherwise you'll just be eaten alive by dragon (or playing a kind of 6v6 where one of your mon, who is just bad vs dragon, have to stay alive just because of dd gouging, so you'll lose actual useful mons just not to lose vs the dog). You can answer it more or less naturally (I mean we saw a whole lot of adaptations) but I don't think it's normal to build in this environment, it's not just 1v1s, and that's why it's not just 1v1s than the metagame is very closed : you HAVE to play certains Mons with certains sets in certains types to have a chance vs Gouging + friends, they have been mentionned in this thread so I'll not explain further. Certains types have a more answers, but the issue is that you have to pick one of the direct answer you have. That's why the metagame feels very close in building, you just cut your own options in order to answer this. We have a somewhat good typing diversity, but in those types you have to respect the dog too much. For example HO is just bad at the moment, because Ho vs Dragon is a no go (not solely because of dragon, but I mean playing Ho knowing that you have 1/3 chance to just have a dire MU doesn't help). I can tell more, but the idea is that you can have typing diversity (except bug, grass, elec, rock, ice, it's way too difficult for those to be played in tournament), but in those types I just feel myself way too much limited. It's not just a "top tier thing", I built a lot in BW mono, or threat, and I don't feel Psy is overwhelming at all because the typing actually have very exploitable weakness without losing too much ground vs the rest of the meta.
Oh and I didn't talk about Mono Fire because I mean one of the worst Mu of the type is Dragon lol, but band on sun just have absolutely ridiculous calcs if you're not playing water or ground.
It's my opinion and I understand the peopole who votes dnb, but for me this dog is just way too unhealthy for the metagame : way too much turns around it, I mean it's not just Archaludon or Hoodra, but this volcano who just elevates the type as a whole other level. It's maybe voting in order to nerf a type, during a shifting metagame, but the thing is just broken for me at base and will just keep being broken because this mon is so good.
The fact that a top 1 type also have a top 1 ratio (if it's top 1 type, it means people knows its domination, and so take that into account in prep) is just very telling too for me.
I want to play a more open metagame than this, and I think Gouging way too good so I'm voting ban.
I talked too much but thanks for reading !
