Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 14 - Chariots of Fire

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hidin

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:sv/gouging-fire:

Hello, hidin here! After the conclusion of the Tiering in National Dex thread, the National Dex OU council has decided to test Gouging Fire!
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Seeing Gouging Fire when it first released did not make waves in the National Dex community; other new Pokemon at the moment like Raging Bolt, Iron Boulder, and other mainstays like Zamazenta and Ogerpon-Wellspring overshadowed Gouging Fire for a while. Overtime though, and especially after the banning of Zamazenta, Gouging Fire skyrocketed in popularity with its Dragonium Z set, along with having some respectable results with its other Booster Energy and Bulky Dragon Dance sets. To see why Gouging Fire is being suspected during the start of NDPL and the middle of other tournaments, let's dive into Gouging Fire in the National Dex OU metagame and see what caused it to be under the forbidden spotlight.

Evidently, Gouging Fire when you pull it up in the teambuilder is an offensive threat in National Dex that should have quite the amount of respect. Good Attack, acceptable speed tier, and then you see one of the best bulk spreads that has been seen on a viable offensive Pokemon. After that you can see how it can get out of control with the aforementioned traits along with all of the boosts that can be given to its already solid power output; Dragonium Z in particular, being the most egregious case. With Dragon Dance, Flare Blitz, Outrage, and Earthquake equipped with Dragonium Z, there is no reliable pivot into Gouging Fire that can consistently check it over the course of a game. Landorus-T, Garganacl, Ting-Lu, and Great Tusk are a few of these Pokemon that are obliterated by a boosted Devastating Drake, or even heavily chipped by an unboosted one. Its great natural bulk allows it to set up in the faces of revenge killers such as Urshifu-R, Mega Lopunny, and Iron Valiant, exacerbating the annoyance that is offensively forcing out a Gouging Fire since there are only a few Pokemon who can achieve that task. Alternative sets that Gouging Fire can use work well, but are not as consistent as Dragonium Z; the sets being Booster Energy and a Bulky Dragon Dance set. Booster Energy gives Gouging Fire a boost to its Attack stat and the choice of an offensive or defensive Tera. Particularly, Tera Dragon is often used and it eviscerates nearly any potential stopgap to it when boosted and paired with Outrage, albeit being revenge killed by the likes of Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, and Mega Diancie easier. When it comes to defensive Tera types, Fairy or Flying were often used to stifle the attempts of trading with Pokemon such as Raging Bolt, Garchomp, Landorus-T, and opposing Gouging Fire. Bulky Dragon Dance sets are used with Tera Steel or Poison to prevent being poisoned by Alomomola and Gliscor. The latter would often struggle to beat it 1v1 due to the investment in its bulk, and along with performing well into a majority of other defensive Pokemon it still holds its own against more offensive Pokemon because of the potential it has live most relevant powerful attacks when it capitalizes in its great bulk.

The many traits of Gouging Fire do not come without flaws, however. The coveted Dragonium Z set has some resource management to be done, as while it can heavily damage or potential OHKO a would-be check, the issue of using it too early or too late in the course of a game when sequences come up where using Devastating Drake is important can cause some issues with the sweeping attempts of the set. Along with this, Booster Energy sets can be much more easily stifled than Dragonium Z due to the fact that when its forced out, it cannot obtain the Protosynthesis boost again (unless triggered under Sun) and as such, Gouging Fire does not exert much pressure after that. The ye-olde tale of having a Stealth Rock weakness can prevent its bulk from showing, and having an easier time revenge killing it with offensive Pokemon such as Urshifu-R and Iron Valiant. And lastly, often times a defensive Tera is used by the likes of Raging Bolt, Landorus-T, and Heatran on a Gouging Fire about to spiral out of control, letting them trade with the Pokemon and handling it a little more comfortably. The defensive counterplay it can break through; for example, Landorus-T, is capable of beating it if unboosted. If the contrary applies, the chances are significantly less in Landorus-T's favor.

Henceforth, due to the many absurd feats Gouging Fire has and the consistent results its puts up in tournament and ladder games alike along with the general discourse about it, the National Dex OU council has decided to let a suspect be held about the Burning Bulwark™ himself.

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  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
    GXEminimum games
    8050
    80.249
    80.448
    80.647
    80.846
    8145
    81.244
    81.443
    81.642
    81.841
    8240
    82.239
    82.438
    82.637
    82.836
    8335
    83.234
    83.433
    83.632
    83.831
    8430

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First I guess.

I believe that Gouging Fire is the most problematic Pokemon currently in the tier. I know there are several people who believe Waterpon to be a more pressing issue, and I will acknowledge that it also presents significant issues for the current meta. However, I think that the council made the right decision in suspecting Gouging first.

This should be an easy ban choice for multiple reasons in my mind. The amount of strain that Gouging puts on the builder and on teams in-game is simply astounding. This meta is already intensely powercrept, so answering every threat, both defensively and offensively, is intensely difficult even before you load into a game. Physical breakers and sweepers like Waterpon, Dragonite, Kyurem, Ursaluna, Mega Medicham, and more present massive issues in builder when one is trying to check all of them. Gouging Fire takes this to the next level, as consistently defensively checking it is a nigh impossible task for several styles of build. Its offensive stats may not be the most impressive, but this is more than made up for by its considerable bulk and high BP STAB moves. Revenge killing it offensively is an extremely tall task, as its immense bulk presents major issues for any scarfer or standard revenge killer that cannot hit it super effectively.

252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 166-196 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 208-246 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 302-356 (86 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (yes this is actually a roll)

Keep in mind that Morning Sun sets are very viable and can potentially aid Gouging Fire in staying healthy while allowing it to pivot out to a teammate that can abuse Choice Scarfers locked into a move. Alternatively, this is where Tera-types become problematic as well. Tera Ground? Whoops, Scarf Lando is now setup fodder. Tera Dragon? Damn, Surging Strikes really isn't doing all that much damage. Tera Poison? That's a nice Iron Valiant you have there, would be a shame if I can set up on it now. This leads me into my next point; defensively dealing with this thing is a massive headache. Common defensive Pokemon used to "check" Gouging Fire include Fat Lando, Mola, Slowbro, and Toxapex. Except these don't work consistently for a number of reasons. Tera, again, can invalidate many of these. Tera Poison ruins Alomomola and can trip up Toxic attempts, and Tera Ground makes EQ from defensive lando nothing to fear. Meanwhile, the Dragonium Z set comes to the table as a stupendously dangerous wallbreaker that can also sweep teams for the reasons stated above.

+1 252+ Atk Gouging Fire Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 390-459 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gouging Fire Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 241-285 (63 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gouging Fire Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 249-294 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gouging Fire Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 315-372 (79.9 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Chipping any of the above Pokemon into Gouging range is far from impossible, and a Protosynthesis boost from solid teammate Yard takes things to the next level. This brings me to my next point; no Pokemon rewards good positioning to the degree that Gouging does. Good play to position for a sweep will always be a thing, but it is supremely easy to do with Gouging due to its extreme power and ease of setting up safely. Chipping its defensive answers just a little bit can allow Gouging to outright sweep, or at the very least just blow an irreparable hole in your opponents teams, therefore letting another offensively minded Pokemon to sweep. Drag Z is especially good at the "blowing an irreparable hole" aspect of this for the reasons stated above, which can be a game losing scenario due to how well Gouging fits with other physically based sweepers. The only rock solid defensive answers are Dondozo or IDPress Pokemon willing to blow their defensive Tera. It's extremely unhealthy from a building perspective, and this isn't even taking into account set variance such as DD+Scale Shot or Choice Band, which can have different answers and are solid in their own right. It is, in my opinion, the single biggest culprit to this offense oriented meta, as one of the better ways to take care of it is to apply as much pressure as possible. This doesn't even work all the time though, due to its bulk and ability to use multiple Tera types well, and its a really solid enabler of these insane offensive skewed teams we are seeing due to (again) its insane bulk and consistency in its role.

Gouging is a massive headache both in builder and in game. Its the main culprit of this insane offensive meta we are seeing in my opinion, and although its far from the only culprit, removing it from the meta would be a good step to make this a healthier meta.

TL;DR plz ban
 
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I was initially a bit on the fence regarding Gouging Fire as the next target for action back when the Tiering thread was still going on, but in playing vs it more the last couple weeks, I've really come around to despising what this mon does to the tier.

Gouging Fire is easily the biggest problem in the tier and the pokemon with an even greater strangehold on building and playing than Wellspring, who at least is vulnerable to being revenge killed by faster pokemon or priority. Gouging does not suffer from this issue. Thanks to its high powered STAB options in addition to Z moves, it poses arguably the largest threat once boosted, with a +1 Devastating Drake often running through most of the tier. Alomomola, Slowbro, Toxapex and Landorus-T, all requiring max physical bulk, can stomach a +1 Z from full health, but they all have significant issues. Mola, Pex and Slowbro don't even threaten to instantly remove the threat of a boosted Gouging, needing to land a Toxic and then hope its team can stall out Gouging long enough. Landorus-T is the most able to take a Z move thanks to Intimidate, but due to its need of also checking other threats, often also on Gouging's team, it becomes much messier and unreliable in practice. In fact all of Mola, Pex, Slowbro and Lando have to remain fairly high in health to avoid being dropped by Gouging's Devastating Drake.

So defensive counterplay is shaky at best honestly. How about offensive counterplay? Well unfortunately, Gouging is lacking there as well. Gouging Fire's bulk is rather substantial, and only further complicates responding to it as its great natural typing makes it difficult to nail with strong hits while the speed boost makes outspeeding it difficult. Something like Scarf Urshifu-R fails to revenge healthy bulkless Gouging Fire, while something like Booster Valiant might outspeed it, but fails to break it as well. All of this, responding to it both offensively and defensively, is difficult enough without factoring in Tera which it is a great abuser of and only further pushes it over.

For me however, the worst part of dealing with Gouging Fire, isn't even Gouging by itself. It's the difficulty in dealing with it on top of other dangerous threats. Gouging is difficult enough to handle as is (and is banworthy on its own), but is made even more egregious when paired with other powerful mons who enjoy the removal or weakening of shared checks. Pokemon like Dragonite for example, is a great partner who enjoys the weakening of Landorus-T if not outright removal, and other physical walls being removed or weakened as well. It's such a messy, frustrating scenario that makes building really frustrating as there aren't many true answers to Gouging, and even fewer for Gouging+physical threats stacked with it. Not without bending over backwards to account for them which just opens up your team to other threats.

The overly offensive metagame is frustrating, and though the ban of Darkrai helped, Gouging Fire is still a major contributor that is pushing the tier in this direction. It forces teams to be built to aggressively deny it entry or limit its set up as much as possible, limiting other playstyles and causing a stagnation in the metagame. It's still not alone in being a problem mon, but its removal will help push the tier in a healthier direction. I'll be voting to ban it.
 
Gouging Fire is insanely oppressive right now, and it's honestly just a drop in the bucket of what feels like an ocean of ridiculous offensive mons that invalidate defensive play.

Gouging fire has no real defensive answers. Bulky waters like mola, pex, and bro cannot threaten it at all. At best, they can hope to be out of range of z dragon and get a toxic off, and at worst, Gouging fire is running sub and the game is instantly over. Gouging Fire’s fantastic bulk means that basically all defensive mons outside of landorus-t are barely threatening to do even half with super effective moves, assuming that they even have an opportunity if Z is used. Dondozo sort of beats it, but it’s impractical in actual games and in teambuilding.

Gouging Fire also has great matchups into offense. Letting it get even one dd can ruin offensive teams, and it is nearly impossible to revenge kill. Common priority bounces off of it, and even if you chip it down enough to kill, you are usually giving up multiple mons to do so, leaving room for Gouging Fire’s teammates to clean up after. Gouging fire can also use tera to turn the tables on certain matchups. Tera steel can be really annoying to resist Iron valiants moonblast, or Iron Crowns stabs. If Gouging Fire messes up your plan to beat it, the game can be over almost instantly. Even this ignores the very likely scenario where you will need to take chip to beat its teammates like Ogerpon or Dnite, in which case you will be in a bad position that would require insane skill or luck to break out of.

Gouging Fire kind of reminds me of Dragapult from natdex gen 8 in the sense that you need to get every turn right, or have a counter that is hard to fit on archetypes other than stall. This metagame is too offensive, and it can’t get better if Gouging Fire is in the tier.
 
Gouging is by no means an oppressive mon its just a standard ass mon that can run multiple sets with enough bulk you cant cheese it with one turn of defensive tera. Its main issue is set variety but thats honestly a skill issue as imo its usually pretty telegraphed based off team comp especially if you have rocks up and can scout for boots. I dont think this mon has ever swept me nor ever will. its main good matchups are against the do nothing mola/pex balances people still try and run off their nostalgia from gen8 natdex and against badly built hazards HO that people pretend is good right now (imo its not). Honestly its speed tier is laughable and its very easily revenge killed by priority. It thuds into stall unless its the weird breaking swipes set which is only good for that one matchup and if u wanted to cteam stall you could easily fit several other breakers that do the same job way better.This mon is honestly just gluten free zardx for people who cant handle rocks and the only redeeming quality is its access to tera which is a whole different issue as tera is inherently busted no matter what mon its on. As a HO spammer i wouldnt even put gouging fire in my top five setup sweepers right now and the backlash against it is honestly just people who dont play offense having no intuition for which sets belong on which team comps or loading badly prepped teams. This mon is easily checked by most offensive speed control and properly played defensive teams, people simply need to realize that these half ass defensive teams without unaware simply dont work in a terastal meta and never will, this is a different generation and mid balances just will not be able to check offensive threats with tera..

You can ban gouging and the next 10 mons with access to dd but it will still never fix the true issue that tera 50/50s are the true problem with the metagame.
 
This mon is easily checked by most offensive speed control and properly played defensive teams, people simply need to realize that these half ass defensive teams without unaware simply dont work in a terastal meta and never will, this is a different generation and mid balances just will not be able to check offensive threats with tera..

No offense, but what offensive speed control? Outside Scarf Tapu Lele who can potentially beat a +1 Gouging Fire, other forms just aren't reliable. Scarf Shifu can't beat a healthy Gouging, Iron Val is no good either and common priority bounces right off of it (literally resists all of Glide from shitty Rilla, Bullet Punch from Scizor and Thunder Clap from Bolt). Even Dragonite's Espeed (which it hasn't ran as often these days, still does but not as often) doesn't do enough. I guess there's Scarf Lando, but that only beats Z Gouging and still struggles with Morning Sun variants that have Tera. As for Defensive teams and Unaware, they all suck. Clefable straight up does not do anything back to it while even just Flare Blitzes will 2HKO 252HP/252DEF Unaware Clef with rocks up, to say nothing of Proto variants that destroy Clef all the time. Clod loses to it outright, Dondozo is stall exclusive and honestly sucks, and Skeledirge can't even touch Gouging Fire. Not to mention Outrage flattens it.

Its main issue is set variety but thats honestly a skill issue as imo its usually pretty telegraphed based off team comp especially if you have rocks up and can scout for boots.

Sure, Z vs Boots vs Booster is telegraphed, but what isn't telegraphed is what Tera type non Z sets run, as well as what moves. You might run into Morning Sun which outlasts most of its checks while boosting, or you may face Tera Ground which runs through most defensive tera mons that try to respond to it.

its main good matchups are against the do nothing mola/pex balances people still try and run off their nostalgia from gen8 natdex and against badly built hazards HO that people pretend is good right now (imo its not)

There's no "nostalgia" for "Mola/Pex Balances from Gen8", people are stuck running these mons because they MIGHT be able to stave off Gouging as otherwise the defensive counterplay is limited. Which is an aspect I feel you're ignoring in this comment and one of the major problems people have with Gouging. Its presence has helped contribute to the tier being pushed in a very offensive, unbalanced direction, which has made it hardr to build defense reliably. We're trying to curb the overwhelming issue of offense and dial it back to a more balanced state.

Also ZardX was pretty bad this gen even before Gouging showed up so it feels weird to your comment on it.

the backlash against it is honestly just people who dont play offense having no intuition for which sets belong on which team comps or loading badly prepped teams.

This I have to comment on especially because I find it quite rude, unconstructive and just pointlessly insulting. So everyone who dislikes this mon doesn't play offense and has no intuition for its sets from preview? How are people loading badly prepped teams? You haven't actually addressed the concerns about this mon and the limitations it places on building. Saying that "tera is the problem" is not really anything, because at this point it's not going anywhere and we're addressing the mon as is in a Tera metagame. You say that there'll be more abusers if it gets banned, which there might be, but not all abusers are created equal.
 
Hello after spending more time with playing vs gouging fire I find myself coming to the realization this Mon :gouging fire: is incredibly unhealthy. Spending more time playing bullkier teams I realized it could take just one turn and its lights out. When we look at defensive counterplay a few mons come to mind we think :alomomola: , :Landorus-therian:, :toxapex:. Was gonna list the calcs but it seems Sputnik already got that covered and I also agree with many of his sentiments. When we think of goug the first thing that comes to mind is the z sets which given the right opportunities (which is often I might add) blows huge holes into the opposition which one may not recover from. You can attempt to stall out with Alomomola if you land toxic but by time you go into alomomola it may already be at +1

+1 252+ Atk Gouging Fire Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 390-459 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Here is a reminder. Thing is z sets are not the only thing you need to be concerned about about as this Mon is also a great tera abuser itself it can quite easily trade the power of z for boots and select a tera that 1. Set up on defensive mons such as Alomomola (Tera poison to beat toxic). Additionally Tera ground to to stop twave attempts from :ferrothorn: which people tend to leave in on goug because the opposition tries to use it as set up bait so more times than not the ferrothorn user stays in and clicks twave just to potentially remove this massive threat. Morning sun sets also stifles any attempts of offensive counterplay such as a scarf :tapu lele: provided it selects the right Tera. Ultimately it comes down to looking at what :gouging fire: provides to the tier (this can be completely subjective) but honestly is it really a benefit to have a Mon that punishes teams like this? Especially bulkier teams?
 
Ok, am a bit late cuz been really busy recently, but got reqs with this HO team https://pokepast.es/0980b764f9e2ea94

I'm aware this is anecdotal evidence, but isn't the intention of a suspect test to play a metagame for yourself and assess if something is broken? I came into this test expecting this mon to be Lebron but it was probably the least useful mon on the team. I found that it at most usually got a kill at with Z, chunked something, then died.

It likes adamant for the power so its speed tier isn't all that great, and I found that outplaying with alo + something else that can sort of take a hit is usually enough to take it down? I know you're not supposed to argue a mon is balanced because u can check it with 2 other mons, but u usually have smth that can take hits from gouging apart from ur main check anyway e.g. lando. Idk, getting 2 DDs was significantly harder than I expected and that's what it usually needs to sweep... Probably voting no ban

Also suspect test Crown. Bro is literally Magearna, this shit sets up on half the tier with tera, I think I won half my games from clicking tera water and idef on mons that should threaten it like gouging fire.
 
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Shoutouts to hidin for passing me the sauciest team ever, never have had such consistent success with one team.

I am currently undecided on what I will be voting. I would love to see more discussion from both sides.
View attachment 669161
As the rule goes,i have 3.2% more gxe,which means i can play 16 less games and 50-16=34,just my current number of rounds.I am voting not to ban Gouging Fire.
if you both haven't already, please post these screenshots in this thread instead. thank you!
 
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