Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 4 - Change (Terastallization Re-Test)

[Jho]

Following from the feedback in the most recent tiering survey, policy thread, and community discussion thread, the NDOU Council has decided to hold a retest for terastallization. It has been extremely devisive ever since its introduction with the new generation, and after barely being let off the chopping block in the previous test, community perception of the mechanic has declined. For this reason, we believe that a second test is warranted in this situation. The various pros and cons of a Tera ban have been discussed at length in other threads we have had recently, so instead of going through them here, you can check through all of the points people have made at your own leisure here and here.

Suspect Test Information:

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 30 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
• The table for this can be found below:

Requisites list

GXE	minimum games
84	30
83.8	31
83.6	32
83.4	33
83.2	34
83	35
82.8	36
82.6	37
82.4	38
82.2	39
82	40
81.8	41
81.6	42
81.4	43
81.2	44
81	45
80.8	46
80.6	47
80.4	48
80.2	49
80	50

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ND9T2. For example I could use the name ND9T2 Jho
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted.
• We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Terastallization will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until July 9th at 11:59pm GMT+1, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.

This thread will be locked for 24 hours for everyone to gather thoughts and write nice coherent posts. Happy laddering!
tagging Kris godbless for all your help and work

 

[R8]

Posting time - please be civil, etc, you know the drill

EDIT: To anyone reading this, you can also take a look at these two threads where the community gave their opinion about Tera:
Tera in National Dex: Where do we stand now?
Tera...Again

 

[LoseToRU?]

I don't play Natdex; never did, most likely never will, but this is super interesting.

From the little I know about your meta, I feel like it has a Wild West vibe to it.
However, it's not surprising to think that tera is so uncompetitive and meta-warping that even your side of the world is finding it unsavory.

I've been on PS! for almost a decade, and I just started hitting up the forums because tera is terrible.
I'm sure I don't need to explain how lackluster gen 8 OU was, y'all literally said "Naw" and did your own thing lol
But I was really looking forward to this gen, and assumed that tera would obviously go the way of D-Max- like clearly it would be stupid.
My forum rants are highly contentious, way too long, and sometimes unhinged- but always in awe that this gimmick has lasted this long.

Anyway, really don't want to clog this thread up, I'm sort of sick of posting lately; but simply put, I would love to see your side ban tera.
Now that I think about it, I would definitely play Nat if there wasn't tera- not that anyone cares, just thinking out loud lol

Good luck on your suspect

 

[Vicholocow]

Let's try to make this right c:

 

[hidin]

It's here. The long awaited Tera re-sus that can either fix National Dex for good, or seal the deal on this metagame becoming very exhausting to play because you don't know if your Great Tusk should click either Ice Spinner or Close Combat on a Kingambit, which is just very fucking dumb. There's truly no good reason to keep this mechanic in the tier, as shown by the thousands of lines the community has written about their distaste, the hundreds of tour games being messed up all because of Tera, and even the previous suspect which Tera survived on the tip of its nails.

You all asked, we provided. Apologies for the long wait but you all now have another chance to save the metagame for good. Good luck on your suspects folks!

 

[CoralReaper707]

B A N
Where do I start? No seriously. Where do I start? Tera is completely a clusterfuck in this metagame. We already have mega evolutions and z-moves running amok. We do not need a stupid mechanic running around in this already crammed metagame with 1k+ Pokemon. For the love of god, please ban it already.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I am a terrible ladder player and can’t ladder much, so I probably won’t get reqs, but here’s my two cents.


Terastallization needs to be restricted in some way.
There are so many 50/50s forced by Tera that can be game-ending. For example, a Fighting type should be able to beat Kingambit 1-on-1. For argument’s sake, let’s take Iron Valiant. It should be able to beat Kingambit…until it Tera Flyings and KO’s it with Iron Head. Any viable setup sweeper can run away with a game once it Teras.

Terastallization is only balanced in an open-team sheet environment.
The reason Tera is fine in VGC is because you know what your opponent will bring, down to its Tera type and move set. However, there are simply too many variables in singles for any solution, bar a Tera reveal, to keep Terastallization balanced.

Why should Terastallization stay?
Proponents of Terastallization’s current state have three main arguments.

1. Terastallization encourages another level of skill and depth.

No, it does ****ing not. Tera turns things that you thought you had a check to, into complete and utter sweeps to your team. This WC replay shows an example where a top player (siTum) gets swept by a threat they thought they had an answer to.

2. Terastallization is simply another type of prediction.

Again, it’s not as easy to predict Terastallization than it is, say, a switch out. You have to predict what Tera type your opponent is (creating these incredibly dangerous 50-50s), when they will Terastallize, and what Pokémon they will terastallize in the first place.

3. Terastallization enables more creativity in the builder.

This point is quite possibly the most incorrect of the three. During the Espathra era, I laddered and found quite a few Tera Dark Clodsires. People were intentionally Terastallizing Clodsire, a near-nonexistent offensive threat, to deal with something…that used Tera to become oppressive. Things like Baxcalibur, Kingambit, and Volcarona need dedicated answers simply because they can destroy checks that would normally stand in their way using Tera. Things like Espathra, Annihilape, Roaring Moon, and Melmetal got banned because Terastallization made them too dangerous.

Is restricting Terastallization worth it?
In the long run, this is the question that needs to be asked, not “Should we restrict Terastallization?” It is clear, with the outpouring of community support for a retest, that it’s inevitable that something happens. But for the anti-ban voters, would you sacrifice Tera’s only redeeming quality (being able to surprise your opponent) to keep a shell of the generational mechanic intact?


That’s all I have for now. Thanks for considering my points. Cheers!

 

[Ento]

I've stated my opinion before and I'll state it again; Tera is the reason I STOPPED playing NatDex.
It takes any amount of casual fun and enjoyment one can have in the format, grinds it into a fine paste, and rubs your nose in it to Shane you for thinking you could "have fun" or "express yourself" with the teams you build.

Because Tera has no cost like Z-moves or using a Mega does, That means it literally is just a universal buff to all the strongest Pokemon. It doesn't add creativity! It doesn't add interesting counterplay! All it does is make already strong pokemon even more Oppressive. You can't use it to make a generally weaker pokemon stronger, like Z-Crystals can, because if you arn't Tera-ing your strongest Pokemon, you'll lose to someone who did, because there's no reason not to.

Tera takes the complex and interesting decision making with checks, counters, predictions, and coverage I love about pokemon battles and just turns it into a "I have da bigger numbahs" game, since types DON'T MATTER ANYMORE.
Oh, you have a counter? No you don't, it's dead and you lose. Oh, you decided to run a niche coverage move to catch me off guard and force a switch? Nah, you lose, I clicked the button and now your coverage is wrong and does no damage. Oh, you're trying to bust through me with neutral damage to keep the pressure up? Nah, you didn't, it's resisted damage.
You tried to use strategy? Nah, I clicked a button once. I win. Should have known I was gonna do that and clicked your own button.

It's not fair, it's not fun, it's not competitive, it's Extremely Anti-Casual, and it's negative effects on the game can be seen with a mere glance at the Gen8 NatDex tiering vs the Gen9 NatDex Tiering.

Natdex is supposed to be about having the fun gamefreak is afraid of, not punishing ourselves with every bad decision they've ever made.

I do forgive those of you who voted DNB initially. We had no idea just how warping it would turn out to be. Even me, who wanted it banned from day one, had no idea it would be this bad.
Let's just work together to fix it, and make the format not only fun again, but make the format amicable to new players again. Because when I started in Gen 8, I found a format I saw magic in. That I had fun in. That I enjoyed even if I lost, and encouraged me to analyze my failures to see how I could improve.
And I wanna make Gen 9 as welcoming and fun as Gen 8 was.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I have a few more points to make on Tera before I try to get my requirements.

Is restricting Terastallization worth it? (Continued)

In addition to removing the only redeeming quality of Terastallization (the element of surprise), restricting Tera instead of banning it entirely also entails that previously banned Pokemon, such as Melmetal and Roaring Moon, may not get a chance to come back, even when the quickban posts admitted that Tera played at least a supporting role in their ban.

On The First Suspect Test
Let me preface this by saying that I am not finding the council or the DNB voters at fault for anything. However, it feels like the suspect was held at a point where the entire National Dex community was just getting to grips with Terastallization’s influence without truly recognizing its need for balancing. I’d also like to point out that the council banned Melmetal because it hit too hard. Why? Because of Terastallization. The council banned Roaring Moon because it could win games at the drop of a button. Why? Because it could Tera Flying to let it set up that one Dragon Dance, then tear through your team. The council banned Regieleki and Espathra because they actually had coverage to wallbreak (for Eleki) or sweep (Espathra). Why? Because they could Terastallize. I’ve seen a shortage of posts discussing this, so I’d like to bring it up as an interesting point.

 

[Larrycharizard1]

Im probably not gonna make the reqs but I did want to mention it just makes things remove any weaknesses they have. Restricting tera would only make the game more complex and more of a mind game at times. for example, are you gonna click air slash against the POTENTIAL tera grass heatran, or Scorching sands against one that didn't tera? Please ban it.

 

[mmnsm]

i am new to smgon forum. I am not a vgc nor a smogon competitive player.
from what I have heard, there are 2 reasons for restricting the use or terastallization.
1st reason: The lack of team preview enables unpredicatatability of the metagame.
2nd reason: The offendsive brought by a new STAB type attack to its counters.

I am open to restricting terastallization.
But I think a factor is overlooked: the replacement of hidden power with tera blast.

Tera blast is the reason why regieleci get banned in ou.
unlikes proior generation, gen 9 allows and pokemon get both a new STAB type and a an common STAB attack to check its counters.

remember, a pokemon without terastallization can only fire a Normal type tera blast,. in order to let it function like hiddem power or even stand out than it, the power must ungergone terastallization.

A sandy shocks itself having an water/grass/ice-tera is not that enough to break the meta. It has to get the right type of coverage attacks so as to make use of the new STAB power broufht the tera type. Without tera blast, a number of pokemon loses the power to check the counters.

i think people should understand the difference brought bty tera blast and terastallization.

remeber, tera blast is not just a better version of hidden power. It shifts between physical attack and special depending on which has a higher bamage output. It's either a plain non-super effective attack, or it's a super easy effective counter.

 

[Senko]

I'm not too involved in this format that much anymore but I will preface by saying that retesting tera is probably the most important thing to happen so far. And I won't jump the gun just yet, but considering how the first vote was decided so tightly, I have a feeling that the current feelings on tera will lead to a majority voting to toss the funny button.

I'm still working towards reqs and enduring the BS of our ladder but I'll make sure to get my vote in. I myself am abusing tera to clean through ladder and its effects are clear as to how it changes the pace of a game to an unhealthy amount. The negative effects of tera in any format can be summed up in a single sentence: You shouldn't be able to instantly remove all your previous checks just because you pressed a button. This might help some other formats where the power scaling is lower, so offensive and defensive tera can balance eachother out, but here in Natdex, our power scaling is so high that even without tera, some mons require hard checks or cores just to cover them (looking at you, Dragapult.) This worked out fine last gen, when the metagame finally settled and things that needed to be banned got banned, and nothing was too overtuned. However, imagine those checks you thought you covered, then become irrelevant once they tera.

Okay, so maybe the solution is to just prep for that tera, right? Whoops, guess you forgot that that set had more types it could tera into. Guess you lose now. Offense can be strong in a format but when you have to play so hard around tera breakers, it just becomes a guessing game on what set you lose to this time (where do I remember that same conflict that we banned something for... .)

Anyways, I have confidence most of our playerbase has figured out how much this format has suffered from tera and will promptly toss it into the trash. Good luck with reqs and happy battling, meow.

 

[Aera]

I fervently believe that tera is too much for the tier and should be banned thanks to the myriad of issues it brings forth. STAB tera allows for mons to deal far more damage than they normally would, allowing them to overpower traditional checks to ridiculous levels. It turns 3 hit KOs into 2 hit KOs and 2 hit KOs into OHKOs. This has made finding checks to these threats even more difficult than it was before with the high power level natdex already had.

This however pales in comparison to the effect non-STAB tera has had. While STAB tera primarily just increases the power of strong wallbreakers even further, non-STAB tera exploits the flipping of matchups to gain 1 or sometimes even 2 free turns. This allows sweepers to become near unstoppable and contributes heavily to the unhealthy aspects of the meta right now, as you cannot really commit to any play or you risk getting losing on the spot.

Pretty much all arguments I’ve heard in favor of tera have been incredibly unconvincing. Defensive use tera is a horrible Band-Aid of a solution to the problems offensive tera has caused. Not only do you need to have the right defensive type for every situation (tera water for rain, tera poison for Sneasler, tera dark for stored power shenanigans and the list goes on and on) which just isn't plausible, but also it quite frequently just does not help as many Pokémon use coverage to hit types that resist them, or it’s impossible to resist their dual STAB with a singular type.

Similarly, the idea that the new type weaknesses a mon that has used tera gets are exploitable is just not true in practice. First you’d have to actually bait out the tera type, which often allows the mon you’re trying to check (usually a setup sweeper) to get yet another free turn to do whatever it wants. Even if you’ve done that you still need to have a specific mon to take advantage of the new type it has while still being able to live a hit from a mon that has already gotten 2 free turns basically, which is very rare to come by. Best case scenario your mon has a move to threaten both the regular Pokémon as well as a move for its tera type, in which case you’re relying on a 50/50, great.

I'm not going to go over restrictions much because I think they're all either useless or dumb (also they're not even an option in this suspect test). Seeing my opponent's tera types at team preview or banning Tera Blast does nothing to address any of issues I've described above and the other restrictions all feel incredibly arbitrary to keep a broken mechanic around for the sake of preserving it.

I think current natdex is quite matchup dependent as a result of terastallization, as it is impossible to prepare for every mon if you take their ability to change type in mind. When the skill of a player can sometimes be completely irrelevant to the outcome of a match, that’s a sign of a broken meta and terastallization is to blame. I'm definitely voting ban and I don't think anything can change my mind at this point.

 

[Lily]

I feel pretty indifferent to this tier but I was talking to others about this suspect test and it prompted me to do an analysis of the NDWC games I played and how Tera impacted them. So I'd like to do that here; this isn't really going to be a post for or against a Tera ban because I don't play the format actively and don't really feel like I should have a say, I just wanted to bring up some points I feel are interesting.

Week 1 vs Sputnik - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-690611
The use of Tera on either side was as follows - my opponent Tera Grassed their Koko to live Barraskewda's Flip Turn, and I Tera Grassed my Pelipper to live Koko's Thunderbolt. Both changed the game quite a bit but not in a way that felt particularly game-breaking; it allowed for better sequencing from both of us, but it certainly wasn't a game-ending use of the mechanic the way something like Sneasler uses it.

Week 2 vs Guille - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-690780
I lost on preview pretty much, Tera couldn't save me and Guille didn't need to use his, so neither of us ended up using it.

Week 3 vs Coolcodename - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-693164
Neither of us ended up using Tera here for one reason or another.

This game highlights a flaw Tera has to me - since your Z Move users and Mega Pokemon can't Tera, most teams are only going to end up with 4 potential Tera candidates, which narrows it down quite a bit. Additionally, the Mega Pokemon and Z Move user tend to be the more offensive Pokemon on the team; i.e. they would be the ones benefiting most from being able to Tera, but can't.

Week 4 vs Jho - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-694123
We both used Tera here after the game was pretty much over, so it was ultimately a non-factor.

Semifinals vs Hyssou - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-696286
My opponent Tera Flying'd their Kingambit in front of my Great Tusk but died to Subzero Slammer anyway, so ultimately it didn't really make a difference. I didn't use my Tera. Even if I wasn't this Tusk set it was more than likely fine for me, though.

Semifinals TB vs BlazingDark - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-697293
BlazingDark opts to Tera Flying with their Sneasler but it doesn't really change the game's course at all, since I end up revenge killing it with Manaphy anyway. I Tera Electric my Kommo-o at the end of the game, but it didn't really need to happen and was arguably worse since I killed the Valiant anyway and didn't risk dying to a Sucker Punch crit.

Finals vs Isza - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-698403
I used my Tera early with Fairy Baxcalibur to ensure I wouldn't get pooped on by Sneasler, but Isza opts to Dire Claw anyway so it ended up worse for me despite being the correct play - good read on his end. Later on he uses his Tera Steel on Hatterene to survive a Sludge Wave from my Iron Moth, which then promptly dies to CC.

---

I didn't end up using Tera in half my games and didn't really feel like it was necessary at all to win. I do feel that the high variance level of the format due to the countless mons, mechanics etc is amplified by Tera for sure; I think that's something inherent to National Dex, though, and to me that feels kinda like... the reason to play it. Like, if you wanna play the format with over 1000 mons, Mega Pokemon and Z Moves, you're going to be dealing with crazy levels of variance and MU fishing regardless.

Like I said before, only being able to Tera with your "weaker" offensive mons i.e. the ones that aren't megas/zmove users is definitely a challenge for the mechanic's dominance. Of course, there are still fantastic users like Kingambit and Sneasler - both of which are probably broken regardless, btw - but I just never found myself feeling like Tera was the issue with this format; if anything, it felt like an afterthought.

Just some words from a player though, not a builder. I can't and won't speak to how enjoyable/unenjoyable the building experience in this format is as I was just fed teams every week with a little bit of tweaking on my end. If it's miserable and Tera feels like the pinpointable reason then I encourage you guys to do what you feel is best for your tier, but in my limited experience (which I hope is still qualified by my results), Tera didn't feel like the problem. Just some food for thought; if you wanna pick apart what I've said feel free, I probably won't be responding since I'm not invested but if I've given anyone something interesting to think about or a point to make then that's good enough for me. ^^

 

[Moisture99]

Terastallization has no place in National Dex. Any skill expression or creativity or variety it supposedly promotes is overshadowed by how it breaks countless mons that otherwise wouldn’t be broken, makes games extremely unpredictable and uncompetitive, and ultimately restricts freedom in the builder due to how one is forced to stack multiple checks to certain mons that abuse tera. As a result, despite what its supporters claim, tera ironically reduces skill expression and creativity in this tier. If you believe tera is broken and still plan to vote no ban, it is within your rights to do so- but please reconsider your decision as it is clearly not one made in good faith (and you could simply play svou which has tera unbanned).

STAB Tera
Stab tera is highly problematic as it lets mons brute force their way through checks that they would otherwise not beat with their stabs. Here are a few examples:

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 408-484 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 272-320 (100.3 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 133-157 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

vs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 178-210 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

vs

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Stab tera eases prediction significantly, makes it harder to use pivots to scout choice locked mons, and allows for progress to be forced in way that doesn’t really have counterplay outside of stacking more checks in the builder.

Non-STAB Tera
Non-stab tera is more egregious in my opinion. Mons such as Sneasler, Volcarona, Zamazenta, and Kingambit can terastallize into new typings that flip matchups, reduce the scope of counterplay, and give free turns to set up and snowball. This is also a problem because several of the mons running around in this tier (see Volc/Sneasler/Kingambit/Valiant/Pult/Urshifu/Dnite/Polteageist/Gholdengo) can absolutely run away with the game with just 1-2 free turns, or if your check to them ends up getting checked by them lmao. Now how in the world can you be expected to know when your opponent is going to tera? Luck and chance have always been part of mons, but it is not reasonable to be forced to account for the chance that your mon with stab cc can be turned into set up fodder by a mon 4x weak to cc. Another example- tera fight dragapult. I would like to mention how no sane person is going to scout and switch their pursuit kingambit out of dd pult, since the chance of the opponent clicking ghostium for chip or subbing is very very real. So how do you not lose your kingambit to tera blast tera fighting? The world may never know.

You’ve also got stuff like Garg, Cress, and Mew that can tera out of their poor defensive typings to become nearly unkillable. The latter 2 can win instantly into a good matchup with stored power cheese, very healthy and competitive yeah. And if you’ve played any NDOU, you should know garg goes from a reasonable specially defensive rocks setter, to an absolutely disgusting matchup fish and brainless win con that is literally the only reason you know what covert cloak is.

Yes, some of these mons that are bolstered by tera already have great tools. But the ability to overwhelm your checks through tera applies to every offensive mon as every mon has access to it. Therefore, this mechanic is inherently uncompetitive and will not stop being uncompetitive even if every prominent tera abuser gets banned. This is also ignoring the fact that banning a million mons will obviously have a detrimental impact on the tier lol.

Defensive Tera
The idea that defensive tera balances out the impact of offensive tera is flawed:

1. You need to have the right defensive tera targeting the right mon/tera type in the builder before you even get into a game
2. You can only tera one defensive mon (which may need its previous typing to check another threat)
3. Your opponent has much more freedom to know when to tera as you have to play reactively to effectively utilise defensive tera, and can thus easily bait a pre-emptive defensive tera
4. Much of the ‘need’ for defensive tera only exists because offensive tera exists. Removing tera from the equation altogether will make teambuidling much more fun and less restrictive.

I’ve seen some people criticise the lack of tera preview as an option. I believe tera preview is an interesting compromise but ultimately would not suffice to address the fundamental issues with this mechanic. For example, knowing if the opposing Kingambit is tera fly or tera dark can help in deciding which moves are safest to click, but the fact that you don’t know when they’re gonna tera means you’re still leaving the game up to a coin flip. Furthermore, it doesn’t fix the issue of how you often already know what type some mons are going to terastallize into (e.g. tera water shifu, tera fight cb zama, tera dragon dragapult), but knowing that they can power through mons they shouldn’t beat isn’t going to help you find ways to beat them regardless. We’re already several months and countless community posts into gen 9- at this point, terastallization is obviously broken and allowing preview as an option would only waste time.

Tl;DR - Tera is broken, ban it so we can have a more fun and competitive metagame

 

[mcooper527666]

Remember when Tera was tested in OU that there were the following options:

• Outright ban (Terastallization will no longer be usable in SV OU)
• 1 Tera user per team (Only the first member of your party will be allowed to Terastallize during the course of the battle)
• Reveal Tera type at team preview (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but the type they would do so into is disclosed at team preview prior to a battle)
• Only STAB Tera types allowed (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but they may only do so to types that match their initial STAB typings)

What caused you decide that restrictions were not an option?

 

[R8]

In my opinion, none of the restrictions really tackle the issues of Tera. To be clear I am not part of the council, so I can't speak for them, I just personally think they wouldn't make sense:

1 Tera user per team (Only the first member of your party will be allowed to Terastallize during the course of the battle)

I explained in this post why I think this restriction would make Tera potentially less competitive:

- Even though there only will be one possible Tera abuser per team, you still will have to cover them in the builder, and that without the flexibility Tera gives you in the first place, as Tera does somewhat compensate the builder problem mentioned earlier by giving you the possibility to choose which Pokemon to Tera depending on the matchup. Meanwhile, Tera abusers still will have a counterplay as limited as before.
- Choosing what Pokemon you want to Tera is actually a skillful part of the mechanic, as you have to properly assess what your and your opponent win conditions are in order to Tera the right Pokemon. Unlike Dynamax, Teraing a Pokemon does not make it automatically better, as the value you get from the typing change depends a lot on the matchup, especially since clicking Tera on something gives up your ability to Tera anything else. Random example: if i have Specs Dragapult and Boots Ice Shard Chien Pao against a team with a Sucker Punch user, i might want to resist the temptation to click Tera Ghost on Pult to keep it for Chien Pao, as Chien Pao has more odds to clean late game with Tera STAB moves than Dragapult as Pult can be revenge killed.

Reveal Tera type at team preview (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but the type they would do so into is disclosed at team preview prior to a battle)

This would not solve the matchup issues the tier is facing right now, and this is often metagame knowledge anyway. Yea you guessed this cm cress was Tera poison, or this garg was tera Fairy or Water, it doesn't mean you can do anything about it better though.

Only STAB Tera types allowed (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but they may only do so to types that match their initial STAB typings)

At this point I'm not really sure what's the point of keeping tera, and TeraSTAB is already kind of busted already lol

.

There is something else I want to address

I do feel that the high variance level of the format due to the countless mons, mechanics etc is amplified by Tera for sure; I think that's something inherent to National Dex, though, and to me that feels kinda like... the reason to play it. Like, if you wanna play the format with over 1000 mons, Mega Pokemon and Z Moves, you're going to be dealing with crazy levels of variance and MU fishing regardless.

Natdex is still played competitively, and imo we still can and should do something to tackle on variance, like with any other smogon metagame. Variance might be one of the reasons natdex formats tend to be very tiering heavy (currently the three sv metagames that banned the most things so far are natdex metagames, and I believe this is also true in gen8), but these tiering actions are effective: last gen, we even had about one suspect each month at some point, but we eventually reached a balanced metagame the playerbase was satisfied of, and I sincerely hope the same can be said about sv natdex eventually. To reach this point however, nuking tera is an absolute necessity imo, especially considering the amount of dissatisfaction we can observe in the tera threads (1, 2) and in the last tiering survey. I absolutely think Tera is actively harmful to the metagame its community, to the point it is an active threat to the future of the tier. Of course, this on its own is not an argument to prove that Tera is broken, and I will do a separate post going over why I think tera should not be kept in National Dex if I get the time to do so.

.

On an other note, I understand why some people are iffy about banning the generational mechanic, but I firmly believe this would be for the better. Gen9 is not only about Tera, very far from it: movepool additions, new pokemon like Iron Valiant, Kingambit, Gholdengo, or Hisui formes, and the newly unbanned Tornadus-T and Dragapult. National Dex can be much better than what it is right now, and nuking the n*1 cheese inducer in the tier will def help.

 

[Velcroc]

Remember when Tera was tested in OU that there were the following options:

• Outright ban (Terastallization will no longer be usable in SV OU)
• 1 Tera user per team (Only the first member of your party will be allowed to Terastallize during the course of the battle)
• Reveal Tera type at team preview (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but the type they would do so into is disclosed at team preview prior to a battle)
• Only STAB Tera types allowed (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but they may only do so to types that match their initial STAB typings)

I’m neither suggesting nor advocating restrictions as an option, I just want someone to answer this question: What caused you to decide that restrictions were not an option?

ab15g went through all this one by one, so I hope I don't step on his toes with this post, and I'm sure by now you would have also read R8's post. SV OU added the option to restrict Tera because most of the player base (casual/competitive) either supports Tera or is ambivalent about its place in the metagame. On the other hand, Tera makes tiering NatDex even more needlessly complicated than it already is. It is futile trying to restrict a mechanic that people want out immediately.

Adding restrictions also makes it difficult for both sides in terms of voting. In the case of the first suspect, the Pro-Ban side would have lost some ambivalent voters to the restrict side to "test the waters", whilst the Anti-Ban side would have to bicker amongst themselves for one of three equally unsatisfactory restrictions. With the opinions of most ND players crystallising, I doubt any Pro-Ban voters want Tera preserved in any form. Anti-ban voters would either keep Tera as it is (making those restrictions redundant) or split their votes (making those restrictions problematic for tiering). I can't see a universe where Tera is any less broken with these restrictions, so we may even end up with a third Tera suspect had we gone this route. Having restriction options does nothing except make this discussion into a filibuster.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

The pool of threats in Natdex is so large that any restriction will be completely useless in what makes tera so disruptive and harmful. Referring to OU is useless as OU doesn't have Mega Evolution and Z-moves. Mons like Walking Wake got banned in Natdex but are completely balanced in OU since OU doesn't have monster sun setters like Mega Charizard Y. Natdex power level is astronomically higher and even without tera the tier is on the edge of being overwhelmed by the sheer variance of threats to prepare for. Tera essentially kills any team building and planning for opponent. And unlike in OU, a single misread here can end the match right there.

Essentially, tera is an abomination in Natdex that should never been allowed in the first place, ideally. It's regrettable that the format had to suffer this mechanic for 8 months. Tera has already killed interest for tons of high level players as per the survey responses. Let's save Natdex from dying by uprooting this pest from the format.

 

[Fenghuang]

The pool of threats in Natdex is so large that any restriction will be completely useless in what makes tera so disruptive and harmful. Referring to OU is useless as OU doesn't have Mega Evolution and Z-moves. Mons like Walking Wake got banned in Natdex but are completely balanced in OU since OU doesn't have monster sun setters like Mega Charizard Y. Natdex power level is astronomically higher and even without tera the tier is on the edge of being overwhelmed by the sheer variance of threats to prepare for. Tera essentially kills any team building and planning for opponent. And unlike in OU, a single misread here can end the match right there.

Essentially, tera is an abomination in Natdex that should never been allowed in the first place, ideally. It's regrettable that the format had to suffer this mechanic for 8 months. Tera has already killed interest for tons of high level players as per the survey responses. Let's save Natdex from dying by uprooting this pest from the format.

I think it will be interesting when tera is banned and NatDex is still a clusterfuck with too many offensive threats.

 

[Nish the Great]

I think it will be interesting when tera is banned and NatDex is still a clusterfuck with too many offensive threats.

This is a pretty ridiculous argument, especially considering last gen being a very good metagame where people were reasonable able to handle only a slightly smaller pool of pokemon

 

[adem]

hey lily! if u dont respond to this idrc its fine but just wanted to put this here since idt anyone addressed it. while u were right in that most of your games tera was not relevant, i think you didnt really look into this finals game here vs isza and mainly the sneasler bax interaction

Finals vs Isza - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-698403
I used my Tera early with Fairy Baxcalibur to ensure I wouldn't get pooped on by Sneasler, but Isza opts to Dire Claw anyway so it ended up worse for me despite being the correct play - good read on his end. Later on he uses his Tera Steel on Hatterene to survive a Sludge Wave from my Iron Moth, which then promptly dies to CC.

At this point right here, things are looking extremely in Isza’s favour, healthy sneasler with unburden proc, tera still saved, everything else bar volc full and healthy, and just forced out your polt which has sash broken, into hatt to proc ebutton. First things first, before this turn even came to be, your options were quite dire. Teapot dies, hatt dies, moth also dies, bax should die to cc, but thats where this next part comes in, and sneas has to win a speed tie (and hope isza’s sneas doesnt tera ((if your sneas teras as well it goes back down to a speed tie)) [so much fun layers on what should be a straight forward interaction!], anyways, you opt to go bax here since it doesnt risk the speed ties or any different layers, it forces a 5050 between cc and dire claw, but issue is this 5050 is no longer a 5050 when you consider the fact that dire claw doesnt kill. what should normally be a obvious click for isza, and a reward for him playing (and loading well) into your team, with sneasler going in crazy vs your team quite quickly is now a 70/30 roll in your favour, since isza has to win a 5050 and has to either sleep ir para -> full para your bax to achieve similiar results. while he did win the 5050, he didnt get the secondary effect needed, so now his sneasler is dead, and what was once like a 90/10 mu for isza to win at that point is now pretty much out of his hands just because your baxcalibur is no longer a fairy type.

these small interactions are what people tend to look past preferring the more obvious ones, how a game that was played extremely well initially got completely flipped, even if he did predict what you were going to do perfectly, the outcome isnt the same.


tldr tera doesnt have to be broken sweeper changes type and beats everything, or choice specs mon 2hkoes the entire tier, or change into immunity to take the hit and wall a mon, u can get the tera turn wrong and still profit bc of what it forces (in this case the weaker dire claw which cant ohko bax over the stronger cc which 100% ohkoes)


oh also, i do encourage you to check out others games in the tour, even just your teammates, there were countless examples of tera causing problems which while luckily enough did not happen in yours bar finals due to other reasons (unwinnable mu on both side 2 weeks), better player in 2 others, and im ngl i cannot speak about the jho game, that is dire.

some games from ur team where tera made the game dire (on either side)
adriyun vs tlenit w1 (lol gliscor walling kyurem)
sasha vs latiasboy w1 (hawlucha resisting future sight???)
tlenit vs javitu w2 (pex walling tusk [altho u guys brought this upon urself by passing him this garbage ass tusk set, usual tusk would have 6-0ed lol] and even with u getting 2 layers of hazards up your yard could not break the non boots pex because it isnt weak to sands anymore lol, especially with fsight, overall not as obvious as the prior due to your tusk handicapping and the bad team overall (why is the dragapult check slowking bro what the fuck), but still notable
latiasboy vs charlyhunter98 w2 (tera dragon meant pult can draco freely t6 without minding kingambit that much [since its 2hkoed by draco so it cant switch in], and isnt ohkoed by suit, which meant it could come in repeatedly again and cause problems, just like what it did later on. charly unfortunately choked tho at the end but would have been a much different scenario with pult dead t5 instead of killing half his team)

okay its quite late but this was just from your team in the first 2 weeks, thats half of your teams games where tera either played a huge role in winning (first 2) or was coupled w good play / bad teams and saved the match, i wld greatly appreciate if u cld watch / comment on these games and if they changed your mind, ty if you do read this and have a nice day

 

[Batzi]

I completed my reqs after being on a hiatas from mons for around 2 years after being an active member of the ND community and first discovered tera in the competitive scene about a week ago. I am not about to write a long post because honestly fuck that however I would like to make arguments for both sides of the coin. I understand the people who want to keep Tera as it makes the game more versatile, unpredictable etc. I also understand that it improves some pokemon and makes more pokemon viable. In saying this though, I am going to vote Ban because this shit crazy fr. Completely swings momentum of matches sometimes, makes S, A tier pokemon even BETTER and gives them even more versatility and encourages cheese such as Garganacl shenanigans, Tera Poison Cresselia, etc and more goofy ah shit. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

 

[Lily]

At this point right here, things are looking extremely in Isza’s favour, healthy sneasler with unburden proc, tera still saved, everything else bar volc full and healthy, and just forced out your polt which has sash broken, into hatt to proc ebutton. First things first, before this turn even came to be, your options were quite dire. Teapot dies, hatt dies, moth also dies, bax should die to cc, but thats where this next part comes in, and sneas has to win a speed tie (and hope isza’s sneas doesnt tera ((if your sneas teras as well it goes back down to a speed tie)) [so much fun layers on what should be a straight forward interaction!], anyways, you opt to go bax here since it doesnt risk the speed ties or any different layers, it forces a 5050 between cc and dire claw, but issue is this 5050 is no longer a 5050 when you consider the fact that dire claw doesnt kill. what should normally be a obvious click for isza, and a reward for him playing (and loading well) into your team, with sneasler going in crazy vs your team quite quickly is now a 70/30 roll in your favour, since isza has to win a 5050 and has to either sleep ir para -> full para your bax to achieve similiar results. while he did win the 5050, he didnt get the secondary effect needed, so now his sneasler is dead, and what was once like a 90/10 mu for isza to win at that point is now pretty much out of his hands just because your baxcalibur is no longer a fairy type.

Ik I said I didn't wanna respond but you asked me to and I want to point out why I feel you're pretty flat out wrong here.

Let's flip back a bit to the turn Isza revenge kills Teapot with Sneasler. From there, hatt gets ejected and you mention that without Tera, the game is over. It's actually not, not even close. You said Iron Moth dies which is very much not true:

252+ Atk Sneasler Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 199-235 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And it KOs back with Psychic regardless of bulk invest. So from there it OHKOs all of Isza's mons except for Polteageist and Landorus; regardless of what happens from there, the game is super flowcharty. Either Isza goes into Polteageist to revenge kill and I get to get a free SD with Sneasler after Moth dies, or he goes into Landorus and I get to get a free DD with Baxcalibur after Moth dies (unless the Landorus has Taunt, but it's risky for him either way because of the looming threat of Sneasler).

It's not over and it's pretty impossible to say how the game would've went without knowing Isza's team, but I'm pretty sure I was /more/ favoured without tera in the picture. Tera is what gave him a chance at all. Regardless of what you think of that, what I do know is that the possibility of defensive tera is the only reason bax came in when it did; it's wrong to analyse it as if tera didn't exist on the turn where it's Bax vs Sneasler bc that wouldn't have ever happened in a non-tera tier.

I am interested in the other games you mentioned though, I haven't watched them yet but I'll try to get to it tomorrow. Maybe I just got uncharacteristically Tera-less games in my wc run. I'm only documenting my lived experience anyway as an attempt to provide something to the discussion, ultimately I'm not super invested in the result and agree that y'all should do what you think is best for the tier.

 

[Boomenheimer]

Good day folks. My name is 2020 idm boomer but you may also know me as Flutter Wayne, The Chief Hurt Officer of Whole Lotta Agents, and most importantly The Godfather of Terastallization.

At this moment, I am a mere single game away from hitting reqs. I’d like to take this time to offer my input on not only Terastallization as a mechanic, but also to share my thoughts on the National Dex metagame as a whole.

Dick in one hand while loading games on my phone with the other, I have returned to a realization I’ve come to many times before. Helen Keller could get reqs for this metagame without even knowing what a Pokémon is. You could hit 2k on the ladder in this tier and still be unable to win on Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader because that is how Fuckin low the bar is in this metagame to hit suspect test requirements. Frankly, I’m appalled at how easy it is to attain a vote whose level has the same degree of impact on the voting outcome of this suspect test as someone who leads the tier or is on the council and is tasked with cultivating an enjoyable player experience. I’ve said this to R8 before, if you want players to vote seriously, make it harder to vote - easy as that. Until you’ve subjected the voters to the struggle against the subject of the suspect test, there’s really nothing I’ve come across during my run that has convinced me that this mechanic is broken. Even during the Zama suspect test, I did not see that Mon even once during my run. How is it the same ladder that we use to get our requirements is completely devoid of these seemingly significant threats to the metagame? I have a Hawlucha doing the shit it’s been doing since Gen 7 still absolutely boddybagging ladder shitters terastallizing hisuian Goodras and I’m supposed to think tera is broken? If you want us to consider the impact on tours, then maybe you should make it more difficult to qualify so that legitimately good players are the ones that get to vote rather than shitter suspect test requirement getters like myself who are able to vote with ELOs in the 1600s or barely 80 GXEs.

Let’s switch gears and talk about Terastallization for a second. Fun ass mechanic, certainly not balanced, yet we find ways to adapt. Whether it’s offensive threats getting even stronger, or defensive juggernauts flipping matchups in a pinch and becoming threatening sweepers in their own right, I’ve come to realize what GameFreak has been trying to tell me all this time. They tried to get rid of stall last gen with Dynamax but obviously went overboard with it, hence the unanimous ban that kept the generational mechanic out of competitive play for an entire generation so we could grow complacent and accept 200-300 turn balance matchups that spam boots regen pivot cores.

You know why singles play gets no attention from GameFreak? It’s because singles players that want to spend 20 hours a day on their computers with their cheeto-dust covered keyboards want to make boots regen pivot balance cores great again. Terastallization is healthy because it gets your ass off your musty PC within 20 turns and encourages you to go touch grass while you mald about wasting your tera on the wrong turn, or a Gliscor flipping a 4x ice weakness against Kyurem into sweeping the opposing team with Facade. The fact of the matter is, Tera forces progress. It is not as predictable as Z-Moves and Mega Evolutions are, and that’s why it’s harder to make educated guesses when playing around certain Pokémon. Which is why you should abandon fat and learn how to play offense, just as we see in VGC (the pretty girl of competitive Pokémon).

Furthermore, I’m a big believer in having different generations that have their own feel to it. If this is how generation 9 feels, then we’ll leave it as that. If you don’t enjoy it, play a different generation. I think it was wrong to remove the gen 8 ladder as that format still has enough support, and could certainly run concurrently with the generation 9 metagame. Another suggestion I have is the preview of Terastallization option that the SV OU metagame had presented as an option in their last suspect test. I’m not sure why that’s not even considered here but I suspect it has a lot to do with a majority of our council suffering from severe brain damage and not being able to count past the number 10. It’s a respectable midground and would always allow future suspects if they still find the mechanic to be overbearing, because trust me when I say if you vote to ban Tera then there is no way in hell council would ever consider bringing it back.

So while there is obviously a bunch of cons to having Terastallization in this metagame, I think there were a lot of different options to explore here that have been overlooked and/or ignored. And so I return here to express my disdain for the mishandling of this metagame and the administrative decisions that have taken place here since November. And with that said, I will firmly be voting DO NOT BAN. And I do hope that the people here will understand how poor a job our metagame leaders have done this generation, so to help them ban Terastallization is to give them a free pass. Hold them accountable for their poor showing, continue keeping them on the backfoot, and demonstrate your influence as someone with a vote to express your disappointment.

DO
NOT
BAN

Shout out Mamoo and my team