Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 8: Just Dance

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Kin+ak (✧∇✧) said:
Lele is NOT sneasler's main partner in crime as it's KOKO. Koko gives a defense boost, ways more useful than a temporary And unreliable priority immunity. Koko can put up screens, can taunt, and has boltturn and roost. Lele hits hard, sure, but Then Just come With a prio when u used your close combat on a defensive pokemon. And ofc, the problem is sneasler as it is a delete button. Now the "entirely dependent" is a total crime. Sneasler sure sweeps With more ease whrn lele desytoyed 3/4 opponents but like you are denying 100% the fact that sneasler can destroy An entire civilization when behind Screen At +3 atk +1 def And that's EASY to do IF it is on E-terrain. And I entirely disagree here, both should be banned.
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First off, I think we already discussed this: there is no problem with lele as of rn. While Scarf and specs are tough at first, if played aganist properly(using protect to force the lock and make a switch, use a wall, etc.) they are suddenly very weaks sets. And on top of that, lele is a good partner for Sneasler, as Psychic Terrain is a great option to prevent status moves from affecting Sneasler, in turn allowing it to be KOed. It only needs to last for 5 turns, which in your words "is temporary and unreliable" is itself not very accurate. There is a reaosn why when Sneasler's allies are listed, Lele is a strong contender.
JBL Jason said:
As someone who laddered to get reqs, I've honestly found more issues with sneasler's main partner in crime, Lele, to be far more of an issue than Sneasler. Sneasler's ability to clean is entirely dependent on Lele's wallbreaking and terrain support. Sneasler with rilla or koko, imo is far less of an issue. Sneasler is pretty borderline but its more the combination of Lele and Sneasler that is the issue, and Lele is the bigger problem (although I don't think either should be banned)
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Thats not the point. We are discussing whether Sneasler should be banned, not Lele.
Moyashi said:
No it's not...? Sneasler itself is a massive threat and still lacks many defensive or offensive answers irrespective of terrain choice. And speaking of which, it fits well on just about any terrain. Even grassy terrain despite Rilla and bulu not being good (bulu underrated actually but that's for another day).



So if you don't think Sneasler should be banned, could you list good counterplay? Let's try and get some discussion going.
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Moyashi, I originally posted a thread that I forgot to finish, which should list why it should not be banned. Gimme a day and then we can argue :)
 
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One might argue Sneasler is not that good of a Pokemon, considering how actually pulling out a sweep with it is much easily said than done, which is something you could observe in NDPL - although replays unfortunately can’t be currently reviewed due to the replays outage. Even though winrate is not a statistic you really can’t rely on without watching the replays, we could also point out that Sneasler had a winrate of 47% during NDPL.

This does not mean Sneasler is a fair Pokemon, far from it. Trying to check Sneasler consistently is still an atrocious headache, and unless you are running a very offensive team you will have to respect the possibility of it getting a sword dance up at some point (which isn’t that hard, and the terrain seed helps with that), and from there there is very little that can pretend to be a consistent answer - in other words, a Pokemon doesn’t have to have a crazy winrate to be broken. What matters in the end is how reasonable it is to prepare against it, and how good the available counterplay to the Pokemon is.

Aside from trying to KO it by teraing into a resist with a Pokemon able to KO it (which is not guaranteed to work at all), you have a very limited amount of answers: the combination of gunk shot + close combat + (tera) acrobatics from adamant base 130 atk shreds the entire tier except the very archetype-specific Barraskewda under rain, Skeledirge and Dondozo (the latter hating having to deal with electric terrain blocking Rest, commonly paired with Sneasler), or a combination of Pokemon - for ex a ground forcing tera flying + a way to push Sneasler into the range of Ice Shard (252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Electric Seed Tera Flying Sneasler: 186-222 (61.7 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), which is also only doable if you can afford to lock into ice shard (which can be very easily be taken advantage of) *and* if you can afford to trade a whole Pokemon to force the tera on it. Should go without saying but Sneasler is also too bulky to be handled with priority alone, and thanks to unburden it also outspeeds every scarfer in the tier.

Even Aegislash - a very mediocre Pokemon that rose to OU probably because the ladder is desperately trying to find Sneasler answers - is not a foolproof answer. Consider this scenario: Aegislash switches into SD, then takes a +2 Acrobatics while using Shadow Ball. From there, Aegislash faces a 50/50: either it uses King Shield to go back to its shield form to avoid the KO, which is risking Sneasler clicking SD again, either it predicts Sneasler clicking SD again, in which case it obviously explodes into tiny pieces if Sneasler goes for Acrobatics, as it would remain in its Blade forme. Also, if you are wondering: yes sneasler takes shadow ball + shadow sneak easily regardless of Aegislash’s spread, especially considering the terrain seed boost (and I am kind enough to assume there are no screens and no psychic terrain up to ruin your fun).


TL;DR: This pokemon has no business being in the tier, requires way too much resources to be taken account of, and reduces the game dumb interactions. This Pokemon is absolutely not conducive to skill, and the tier will be much better without it - it is broken. I will vote ban.
 
I would vote do not ban. It is very hard to check and counter but there are a few solutions. Like for example Skeledirge. Skeledirge is like barely used in nd ou but even then it can still break past it with heavy duty boots on it to avoid stealth rock and spike damage. It has unaware and will o wisp. The only way sneasler can stop that thing is by luck from a sleep on dire claw. Another one is mega banette. I know, I know it can use dire claw to try and put it to sleep or paralyze it but it would have already d bonded. Plus, a swords dance boosted dire claw can 2hko it. D bond itself lasts for 2 turns. Any other unaware pokemon that breaks past sleep or paralysis can also get around it. A bulky pokemon with thunder wave or a prankster pokemon with it could paralyze it, switch into something that outspeeds it at its normal pace like iron valiant, Greninja or Meowscarada. I would say it is very tough to get past with a Lele, Koko or Rillaboom boosted unburden with an elemental terrain seed or a fake out normal gem but it is not undefeatable and some of these pokemon are commonly used like Mega Banette, so I would say do not ban at the moment.
 
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Retereereeeree said:
I would vote do not ban. It is very hard to check and counter but there are a few solutions. Like for example Skeledirge. Skeledirge is like barely used in nd ou but even then it can still check it with heavy duty boots on it to avoid stealth rock and spike damage. It has unaware and will o wisp. The only way sneasler can stop that thing is by luck from a sleep on dire claw. Another one is mega banette. I know, I know it can use dire claw to try and put it to sleep or paralyze it but it would have already d bonded. Plus, a swords dance boosted dire claw can 2hko it. D bond itself lasts for 2 turns. Any other unaware pokemon that breaks past sleep or paralysis can also get around it. A bulky pokemon with thunder wave or a prankster pokemon with it could paralyze it, switch into something that outspeeds it at its normal pace like iron valiant, Greninja or Meowscarada. I would say it is very tough to get past with a Lele, Koko or Rillaboom boosted unburden with an elemental terrain seed or a fake out normal gem but it is not undefeatable and some of these pokemon are commonly used like Mega Banette, so I would say do not ban at the moment.
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So to beat it, you have a UU mon and an unviable meme of an OU mon. Got it.
 
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Retereereeeree said:
I would vote do not ban. It is very hard to check and counter but there are a few solutions. Like for example Skeledirge. Skeledirge is like barely used in nd ou but even then it can still break past it with heavy duty boots on it to avoid stealth rock and spike damage. It has unaware and will o wisp. The only way sneasler can stop that thing is by luck from a sleep on dire claw. Another one is mega banette. I know, I know it can use dire claw to try and put it to sleep or paralyze it but it would have already d bonded. Plus, a swords dance boosted dire claw can 2hko it. D bond itself lasts for 2 turns. Any other unaware pokemon that breaks past sleep or paralysis can also get around it. A bulky pokemon with thunder wave or a prankster pokemon with it could paralyze it, switch into something that outspeeds it at its normal pace like iron valiant, Greninja or Meowscarada. I would say it is very tough to get past with a Lele, Koko or Rillaboom boosted unburden with an elemental terrain seed or a fake out normal gem but it is not undefeatable and some of these pokemon are commonly used like Mega Banette, so I would say do not ban at the moment.
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If anything, this addresses the whole point why Sneasler is unbalanced in my opinion: as I went over on my post, you have to rely on pokemon that are only fit on very specific kind of teams(skeledirge, dondozo) or are just bad (mega bannette), and otherwise have to dedicate multiple pokemon on trying to handle it. You can beat it, but the amount of resources you have to spend both in the builder and in play to actually handle it is far from being reasonable imo, especially in a metagame with so many other threats you have to take account of - in general, the counterplay to the pokemon is far too limited.

About t-wave users: not a lot of them can even successfully take the +2 hit and actually hit it with thunder wave - pretty much only tera ferrothorn and twave slowbro, which do not always appreciate being forced to run twave. Pranksters users are all either too niche to be slapped on teams or just not viable, and the one that sees usage in OU (grimmsnarl) is restricted to HO builds, and doesn't like having to run twave either. Pokemon like Klefki and Sableye mayyyybe can be toyed with but you def can't just slap them on any teams, and still die to sneasler while trying to twave it
 
R8 said:
If anything, this addresses the whole point why Sneasler is unbalanced in my opinion: as I went over on my post, you have to rely on pokemon that are only fit on very specific kind of teams(skeledirge, dondozo) or are just bad (mega bannette), and otherwise have to dedicate multiple pokemon on trying to handle it. You can beat it, but the amount of resources you have to spend both in the builder and in play to actually handle it is far from being reasonable imo, especially in a metagame with so many other threats you have to take account of - in general, the counterplay to the pokemon is far too limited.

About t-wave users: not a lot of them can even successfully take the +2 hit and actually hit it with thunder wave - pretty much only tera ferrothorn and twave slowbro, which do not always appreciate being forced to run twave. Pranksters users are all either too niche to be slapped on teams or just not viable, and the one that sees usage in OU (grimmsnarl) is restricted to HO builds, and doesn't like having to run twave either. Pokemon like Klefki and Sableye mayyyybe can be toyed with but you def can't just slap them on any teams, and still die to sneasler while trying to twave it

To think about it, you are actually right. Those t wave users can actually die to it. And skeledirge and dondozo are just too reliant on those sets. Klefki and sableye will die after a couple of hits and won't do much. If it has an opportunity to kill banette and avoiding d bond by putting it to sleep, then it's just imbalanced and it's just game over. Even pex can tank a few hits but it will still die. Thank you for clarifying these points. Now, I will change my vote to ban because it is beatable but it is very hard to get past it. Once again, thank you for clarifying it.
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i would like to get off mr. sneasler's wild ride
also im voting ban when if I can get the chance, it's just absolutely impossible to find a reliable check for this guy its actually insane
 
about15guys said:
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i would like to get off mr. sneasler's wild ride
also im voting ban when if I can get the chance, it's just absolutely impossible to find a reliable check for this guy its actually insane
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Have not laddered recently but the main thing I did was to play the numbers game against it with physically defensive Zapdos during my Gholdengo suspect run: it is almost twice as likely to get paralysed from static than making Zapdos fall asleep (the only status condition that Zapdos is worried about, being poisoned does not matter much when it is trying to hit a hurricane or volt switching out of the flying Sneasler).

This was not a foolproof strategy by any means, but considering how sealoo's Lunar Sand team was focused on beating down other things, I think you can cobble together enough soft checks against it for your Sneasler suspect run - it helps that the current metagame has less broken threats running around :psyglad:
 
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