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Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1101))

:Ribombee: B > A
:enamorus: idk but it's really good
:Raging Bolt: A+ > S-


Webs are pretty free on OLT ladder because no one is using the evil court-changing rabbit, because he stacks up weaknesses w/ :moltres:, which is the pokemon du jour for some reason. As a result, I think clicking webs and then some broken sweepers is just as good as any other hazard lead like :glimmora:

Specs Tellar Blast :enamorus: is broken on webs. That may seem conditional, but I don't think sticky webs is so matchup fishy as common sentiment suggests. It's very consistent in current meta in my experience. It's really just annoying rodents (:cinderace::maushold:) that pose real threats, andd those are pretty absent atm. Enamorus is more of a clicker than :walking wake: in sun, and those are both currently in A-. Does that mean Enamorus should rise? Idk...it's not very good outside of this and griefing fat teams with substitute sets. like, check this "skill" lol?? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2170874832

Unrelated to webs, but also good on webs, :raging bolt: is crazy giraffe. it only clicks 2 types of moves, there are two ground types on each team, new tera ground users, and yet it still manages to dominate games. Crazy bulky, crazy strong, and it really gives off that "kingambit in the back" energy that makes the game never feel over. Boots pivot sets are so annoying. Tera fairy is dumb. I think this is a cut above everything in A+ that's not :darkrai: or :gholdengo:, which could prob both go S-. idk. maybe this is too radical.

Other stuff I agree with:
Up :greninja::pecharunt::Sinistcha:
Down :skeledirge:
Stay :zamazenta:
 
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UR > D

Before I explain my nom, look at this calc.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-289 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Here we see Chansey avoid a 3HKO from one of the strongest physical attackers in the tier unboosted which is funny as shit. What this means is a healthy Chansey can stay in and T-Wave or S-Toss while having enough HP to fend off those special attackers, allowing Fat and Stall to play a bit more recklessly to win against their worst matchups. Chansey’s better mixed bulk gives it an easier time scouting Kyurem and Dragapult.

mimilimi demonstrated Chansey’s niche by peaking to 2131 on ladder with it, winning a cycle of dct and their recent performance in OLT. Ofc this is the same tournament we saw two Oricorios, but Chansey in contrast, had a solid game-to-game performance.

Chansey requires tons of support to leverage its weaknesses such as vulnerability to hazards and especially knock, so the teams it can fit on are limited. But make it known, Chansey has a legitimate niche on the teams it fits on.

(link to mimilimi’s rmt)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1-2131-chansey-hydrapple-fat.3743307/

 
its so easy to just say “bro grasspon has no checks just u turn out to a teammate” except meow doesnt run into this problem as much since it has better coverage and speed (can hit rm instead of being scared by it or kill a weakened val/moth) and also has trick. Whilst trick isnt as good as encore most of the time, it still functions very similarly and can even be better eg tricking corv.

Grasspon isnt amazing into faster teams in practice because saving defensive tera can be crucial to not lose to their tera sweeper.
I assume you're comparing Grasspon to scarf meow here. Not only does Gpon not need to run scarf to use that speed tier, being able to just run the superior boots, you're also assuming Meow can make use of trick and its great coverage. Scarf meow needs trick to not be dead weight into fat or stall bc any scor will just click protect on its axel and then switch out to an ice resist. However, that also means giving up some of its great coverage; you either have to give up its ftrick, knock, or triple axel, all of which have bad side effects, meaning in practice you actually don't have much better coverage then grasspon. This is ignoring that while its coverage is good, being choiced means its forced to predict or get locked into the wrong move and becoming a momentum sink. Scarf Meow can be very useful, I but you're majorly ignoring the fact that its similarly an offense-fish without trick because its not running boots (unlike gpon); I also want to highlight that especially in a meta w as many fantastic spikes setters as we have (scor, ting lu, ham, glimm) not being able to run boots is a huge negative, one that grasspon doesn't share because it can hit 525 speed tiers with boots.

As well, you claim that sacrificing tera is a huge downside, and while it's not great, I can tell you from a lot of experience building around and using grasspon that tera-ing grasspon is almost always a no-brainer in these matchups because of how much it does for the team. Getting a damage boost while also hitting 525 and not being choiced is massive because it allows for you to outspeed Waterpon, Darkrai, Zama and Pult, all amazing mons. This is also ignoring the fact that for any non-offense team, this is almost risk-free because the biggest threat to almost all these teams on offense is likely going to be Waterpon and maybe Darkrai (Kyu is a similar threat but its much less common). This means 'wasting' your tera gives you a mon that counterpicks the biggest balance shredders in the tier - not exactly a waste of your tera. This is ignoring that, as many people have already mentioned, Grasspon is a much better pick into Waterpon (the mon any non-HO team needs to beat) because it resists its stabs, is less weak to uturn and isnt weak to play rough, is physically bulkier, can encore it into SD with tera. Not only that, it also encores other very threatening mons that theoretically beat it, like Bolt into CM, even Dnite into DD or espeed after a tera, Zama into ID, Darkrai into NP (if its paired with Mola, this is easy to do). Meowscarada has none of this utility, needs to sacrifice a moveslot to trick to not be worse into fat, and is hazard weak. Scarf meow is a cool set which I like because it outspeeds booster Moon and Val, and I'll admit that's very good utility and means it likely has a place, but in most matchups its straight-up worse.

I've built with Grasspon a lot and I can tell you that on balance/bulky balance, its almost the ideal glue due to its positive matchups into mons that do very well into it like Waterpon, Darkrai, and the plethora of waters that can threaten balance like CM Prim and Ham, as well as stopping set-up sweepers with encore while being able to boost its speed and still run boots. This is forgetting that Meow's best set by far requires scarf, meaning its very hard to fit on anything bulky that needs to drop hazard removal (which is a lot). Meow has a niche in the tier thanks to having grass/ice cvg with knock, and you're obviously entitled to prefer using Meowscarada, but Gpon is better and its not close. I've thought it was at least A tier for awhile due to how it neatly handles a lot of balances problems for it as an offensive glue while still exerting a ton of offensive pressure.

Also it has a lot of moveset options that haven't been explored. Its standard 4 moves are obviously very strong on it, but it also has the option of SD to better pressure a lot of its switchins, superpower/low kick to nuke Kg/Kyu/Darkrai by surprise, synthesis to sustain itself, even taunt is an option to help break fat.
 
View attachment 653605View attachment 653610UR > D

Before I explain my nom, look at this calc.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-289 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Here we see Chansey avoid a 3HKO from one of the strongest physical attackers in the tier unboosted which is funny as shit. What this means is a healthy Chansey can stay in and T-Wave or S-Toss while having enough HP to fend off those special attackers, allowing Fat and Stall to play a bit more recklessly to win against their worst matchups. Chansey’s better mixed bulk gives it an easier time scouting Kyurem and Dragapult.

mimilimi demonstrated Chansey’s niche by peaking to 2131 on ladder with it, winning a cycle of dct and their recent performance in OLT. Ofc this is the same tournament we saw two Oricorios, but Chansey in contrast, had a solid game-to-game performance.

Chansey requires tons of support to leverage its weaknesses such as vulnerability to hazards and especially knock, so the teams it can fit on are limited. But make it known, Chansey has a legitimate niche on the teams it fits on.

(link to mimilimi’s rmt)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1-2131-chansey-hydrapple-fat.3743307/

I've been trying this team on the ladder and it's pretty good in my opinion, you have to play around Knock Off from stuff like Tusk/Gliscor/Tinkaton etcetera but if you manage to do that Chansey is basically Super Saiyan Blissey. It can easily eat and stall an specs tera water walking wake on the sun for example.

I think it's a D - C- pokémon for sure. Much more specific than Blissey (which also hates knock tho) but a lot better at tanking hits.
 
View attachment 653605View attachment 653610UR > D

Before I explain my nom, look at this calc.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-289 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Here we see Chansey avoid a 3HKO from one of the strongest physical attackers in the tier unboosted which is funny as shit. What this means is a healthy Chansey can stay in and T-Wave or S-Toss while having enough HP to fend off those special attackers, allowing Fat and Stall to play a bit more recklessly to win against their worst matchups. Chansey’s better mixed bulk gives it an easier time scouting Kyurem and Dragapult.

mimilimi demonstrated Chansey’s niche by peaking to 2131 on ladder with it, winning a cycle of dct and their recent performance in OLT. Ofc this is the same tournament we saw two Oricorios, but Chansey in contrast, had a solid game-to-game performance.

Chansey requires tons of support to leverage its weaknesses such as vulnerability to hazards and especially knock, so the teams it can fit on are limited. But make it known, Chansey has a legitimate niche on the teams it fits on.

(link to mimilimi’s rmt)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1-2131-chansey-hydrapple-fat.3743307/

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 654-770 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

First time posting here but unless I calced wrongly, :ogerpon-wellspring: should always threaten out :Chansey: since it can either encore it or sd in its face. If it's knock? You lose. Also saccing boots for extra bulk doesn't seem very worth it imo
 
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 654-770 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

First time posting here but unless I calced wrongly, :ogerpon-wellspring: should always threaten out :Chansey: since it can either encore it or sd in its face. If it's knock? You lose. Also saccing boots for extra bulk doesn't seem very worth it imo
I think it was meant to be more of a demonstration of its bulk rather than a proposition that chansey beats waterpon
 
How is corvinight ranked higher then skarmory? Skarm matches up much better with the current meta game with body presses hitting harder and it overall being better against physical attackers
 
How is corvinight ranked higher then skarmory? Skarm matches up much better with the current meta game with body presses hitting harder and it overall being better against physical attackers

Skarm is free switch-in for ANY ghost (including Tera ones), not even just Gholdengo, Corv can U-Turn out. Corv also has way more Sdef too, allowing to soft check things like Enamorus and Iron Valiant. As a Spike setter, Skarm is also free switch-in for Hatterene. Overall, Skarm not only is worse than Corviknight, but straight up a mediocre Mon in the meta.
 
Skarm is free switch-in for ANY ghost (including Tera ones), not even just Gholdengo, Corv can U-Turn out. Corv also has way more Sdef too, allowing to soft check things like Enamorus and Iron Valiant. As a Spike setter, Skarm is also free switch-in for Hatterene. Overall, Skarm not only is worse than Corviknight, but straight up a mediocre Mon in the meta.
Calling skarm mediocre is crazy
It checks weavile, roaring moon, physical attacking valiant
Basically most physical attackers in the meta, while corv most of the time is fighting for a team slot with skarm (the vice versa is true as well)
Corv has hazard removal, u turn and better matchup against special attackers
Skarm checks more mons and corv provides more utility
It is truly a matter of preference tbh
 
Ogerpon Wellspring is funny
One of my personal favourite wall breakers as well it’s genuinely a good offensive pokemon :)
Ivy cudgel is so spammable
My personal favourite set is: Ivy Cudgel, Horn leech/wood hammer, swords dance and knock off
It’s very fun and splashable or at least it is for a person like me
:sv/ogerpon-wellspring:
 
Speaking of the recent discussion, I'd like to make a very bold nom that'll def get people to question my sanity
:skarmory: from B+ --> B or B-

I genuinely do not see how this mon is still OU by usage, it's far inferior to Corv at this point, there's no denying it. It lets ghosts like Pult and Gholdy in for free and has to awkwardly hard switch the turn after it either Spikes up or Body Presses for nothing, Corv can at least slow pivot out with U-turn to generate momentum. Also as eeveeto mentioned, Corv's way better special bulk lets it check resisted special threats like Enam and Val. Skarm's also always running physdef, Corv has the option to go for a spdef set in order to better check mons like Rai, Kyu, and Prim, which already gives it a leg up above Skarm since there's more versatility. I think Skarm truly has fallen off recently, and for people who wanna mention that it checks Meow, Corv does too and Meow's also mid rn, tho I'd say it's doing better than Skarm atm since it's still got hella good coverage. I get that it's a Spiker that beats Tusk, which is insanely cool, especially since Gliscor is now going spdef so Spinner is chunking it way harder now, which theoretically should make Skarm way better than it is, but its passivity is far too great a detriment.
 
Speaking of the recent discussion, I'd like to make a very bold nom that'll def get people to question my sanity
:skarmory: from B+ --> B or B-

I genuinely do not see how this mon is still OU by usage, it's far inferior to Corv at this point, there's no denying it. It lets ghosts like Pult and Gholdy in for free and has to awkwardly hard switch the turn after it either Spikes up or Body Presses for nothing, Corv can at least slow pivot out with U-turn to generate momentum. Also as eeveeto mentioned, Corv's way better special bulk lets it check resisted special threats like Enam and Val. Skarm's also always running physdef, Corv has the option to go for a spdef set in order to better check mons like Rai, Kyu, and Prim, which already gives it a leg up above Skarm since there's more versatility. I think Skarm truly has fallen off recently, and for people who wanna mention that it checks Meow, Corv does too and Meow's also mid rn, tho I'd say it's doing better than Skarm atm since it's still got hella good coverage. I get that it's a Spiker that beats Tusk, which is insanely cool, especially since Gliscor is now going spdef so Spinner is chunking it way harder now, which theoretically should make Skarm way better than it is, but its passivity is far too great a detriment.
Skarmory is very useful on hazard stack team styles
In fact I hate hazard stack since there is no way I’m running maushold/current specifically to deal with them
By no means hazard stack is broken (cuz then gholdengo would be banned) u can always knock out their hazard setter before they get anything up as well just run boots
But I’m getting off topic here, skarm is more useful on the arguably best playstyle this gen and hence its current placing is alright
 
I love how lando-t used to be mon earlier this gen which everyone predicted would fall off (including me) but it never did
In fact, as of now it is one of the best mons in the tier

I know it’s cuz it got most of its moves back but genuinely it is a comeback story
 
The reason why both corv and skarm are so ass is because the meta is going more on the special side, which limits the amount of stuff these 2 can wall. Not only that, but the premier physical attacker right now is gouging fire, who has no trouble against both, Ogerpon-Wellspring can also brute force her way out of them. Roaring Moon is seeing more and more taunt usage, which kills both

Both are super passive and can be easily exploited by the majority of the meta, I still think :skarmory: > :corviknight: because corv is unviable garbage that should be in UU, and both of them only really fit on fat balance and stall, but even then, moltres does the job better because of flame body

They still have a niche, like shitting on rillaboom, weavile and checking zama and kingambit, but there are better ways to handle these, like moltres or zama
 
Skarmory is very useful on hazard stack team styles
In fact I hate hazard stack since there is no way I’m running maushold/current specifically to deal with them
By no means hazard stack is broken (cuz then gholdengo would be banned) u can always knock out their hazard setter before they get anything up as well just run boots
But I’m getting off topic here, skarm is more useful on the arguably best playstyle this gen and hence its current placing is alright
What, hazard stack has been dropping Skarm for a while now. Offensive and bulky offensive hazard stack runs Samurott as its spiker since it doubles up as a breaker+hazard setter, and isn't completely passive like Skarm is. Fat balance hazard stack prefers spikers like Lu since unlike Skarm, it checks key threats like Gholdengo and Dragapult and isn't immediately passive thanks to Ruination. I'm aware it doesn't outright wall Tusk, but Ruination chunks it for good damage+BU sets hate being Whirlwinded out. Gliscor also sees more play as a spiker on these teams, but that set's dropped off in favor of SD sets recently. Hell, I've had more success with Clodsire as a spiker on Sinistcha hazard stack teams, and that mon feels ridiculously passive at times, but at least it has Toxic and synergizes extremely well with Sinistcha.
 
VR NOMS (Essay Incoming)

:Gholdengo:-> S

Arguably top 2. Has seen a ton of usage and is just very strong with the direction the tier is going in with Zama being top 1. Can fit on almost every team style and provides a ton of offense, defense and support all in one slot. Bulky NP sets are obviously great into bulkier styles and at trading, but defensive twave hex sets have seen a lot of play lately and is arguably it's best set for its ability to support it's team with status and serve as a wincon with its hex, as well as it's ability to pair very well with other status setters like pult and scor. Also feels like the only “real” steel in the tier for it's ability to resist fairy and ice, which is a godsend against broken Kyu and the offense fairies, as well as being a steel with actually reliable recovery while also having a strong offensive presence, unlike the metal birds. No other steel then Tinkaton and Heatran has this, and Tinkaton is great but weaker statwise and lacks gholds reliable recovery and Heatran is garbage. Also is a steel that actually beats Zama which is fantastic. The only problem is that as a spinblocker it is very threatened by tusk unless it teras, which it doesn't want to do. As well, ghost, dark and ground attacks are literally everywhere in the tier.

:gliscor: -> S-

Maybe a bit much but I think this feels above the stuff in A+. It's the premier defensive piece in the tier and has almost everything you want out of a defensive mon. It gets hazards, status in toxic that perfectly synergizes with eq, has an amazing typing, fantastic bulk, natural passive recovery with its broken ability, is the best knock absorber in the tier, is a status absorber, can knock, is an electric and flying immune in one slot. Literally insane. It can even go offensive with SD sets which are obviously great into balance, but I'd argue those sets are worse because they require more support. The only thing its missing is reliable recovery in roost, but protect with toxic orb comes close. I don't think any other defensive mon provides this amount of utility to a team outside of gholdengo. It's biggest problem is ironically that it can thud into itself -- if it's facing itself on stall it really can't do anything except set up spikes and try pp stalling itself on stall, which the stall gliscor probably wins on. Also using utility sets into teams with SD sets can feel like you got hard counterpicked. As well, a lot of the best mons into the bulky styles it fits best on are naturally great into it, with waterpon, kyu and rai forcing it out with water or ice coverage. Despite that though it provides so much to teams I think it's above everything in A+.

:ogerpon-wellspring: -> S-

Unga bunga hit hard. Bottom of S- because it lacks versatility. Can only run one item, and that item is nuts but it's still a downside and forces it on offense. If you run a bulky team it will live and die by its counterplay into this thing. It has an insanely positive mu into the best bulky mons in the tier and can very much exploit a lot of them, and against balances that are woely prepared against it (which is very common) it's likely it just claims a kill every time it comes in. SD sets are the best, with SD stabs knock probably being the single best fat breaker in the tier and needs to be accounted for when building. However it can get away with a lot because of how much it gets just from sd and it's stabs. Encore is also insane, trailblaze really helps into offense and can help it beat the usual counterplay of stuff outspeeding it, and PR can hit dragons. It can also go uturn which I think is a lot less good but that hits grasspon and other grasses hard which is cool. It also has a surprising amount of defensive utility: resisting EQ while not being ice weak is amazing, water absorb fucks up mola and really hurts other waters in general, resisting steel is amazing for gholdengo, and it's bulk is solid for an offensive mon. Considering that some of the best mons on balance are grounds, it's very easy for it to come in on them if they're setting hazards or clicking eq. Is flawed though; it's speed tier is amazing for its natural power but is very liable to get outsped on offense, and dragons and grasses can annoy it, although things like pult and tea which are commonly thought of as good counterplay are blown up by knock. As well, not that versatile compared to stuff like darkrai, which has a ton of sets it can run as well as a better speed tier. Still insane though and arguably the #1 mon for balances to prep for.

:alomomola: -> A+

Maybe a hot take and odd despite my waterpon nom but feels more indispensable then ever on fat. Even with waterpon in the tier, this thing generates momentum on fat like no other, and wishpassing is incredibly useful for helping your team survive longer then otherwise or eat hits they probably couldn't. Ironically helps a lot against waterpon because of how wish helps it's teammates live hits from waterpon and help to stop it's progress. It gets so much value from wish, flip turn and protect that it's fourth slot is very customizable. Scald is obvious and can make it hard for physical threats to switch in on and is likely to burn stuff like dnite before it can setup enough to stop it, as well as being really good into balance and fat in general, but chilling water/tickle can really stop dd mons like gouging and dnite pretty reliably, and light screen is also a great option as a secondary support for it and it's teammates into dangerous special mons. It's also surprisingly a good check into darkrai bc it's so fat that darkrai needs to rely on a secondary proc to really annoy it, as well as being able to come in on its ice coverage. Also amazing into the many grounds in the tier, especially Tusk. It's problems are obvious though; it's special bulk isn't amazing so it can get overwhelmed by strong special threats. It can also sometimes thud into setup sweepers, and the obvious waterpon really does restrict what it wants to click while being unable to do anything back aside from clicking wish. I'd argue that what it does for fat outside (and even in) that mu is so strong that it deserves to be A+.

:ogerpon:-> A

Talked about it to death but it's great into offense and one of the best glue mons in the tier right now, especially for balance and fat. Synergizes very well with a lot of fat staples due to its support with encore, ability to come in on waterpon, ting lu and mola, knock, pivoting capabilities and it's offensive pressure. Strong into a lot of mons that can really annoy fat like waterpon, prim and samu naturally and can tera to hit hard and outspeed very notable and hard to deal with threats like darkrai, pult, zama and even booster tusk. Encore is great at forcing switches and stopping setups, as well as punishing kg for clicking sucker punch. It's also unexplored; the standard pivot set is great but has a lot of options like SD and low kick/play rough to hit things like Kg and kyurem really hard. Problem is that mono grass stab isn't ideal and while it definitely outclasses other offensive grasses and most other knock off users on balance, it lacks ice coverage so it needs to play around scor more carefully and can sometimes thud into it if you can't chip it down. Still amazing though. Also defiant is great.

:weavile: -> A-/B+

Not bad but just doesn't fit in the tier as well as it used to where it was arguably A+. It's got great offensive stats and ice dark coverage is nasty especially with it getting knock, and ice shard it still cool. The problem is that more often then not it feels like a risky pick. Triple axel isn't very accurate which can be a death sentence when you really like clicking it, especially in a more offensive meta. It struggles into waterpon bc it can't knock it and it needs to rely on axel, which will hit hard but is liable to getting terad on and being blown up. Tying darkrai is nice but bc of how much of a threat darkrai is, you don't just want to tie it and again leads to 50/50s, especially if it packs focus blast. The metal birds being worse is great for it, but moltres arguably replaces them and despite being very vulnerable to knock off, is going to threaten it with flame body especially because taxel hits 3 times so it's likely getting burned if it clicks it, especially with it lacking other non contact options. Gholdengo as the steel of choice in the current metagame is nice for it but the trend towards physical bulk means they actually 1v1 you, as they will live a knock off but you won't live a MIR. Zama exists. Kg beats non low kick variants but without SD you don't do much to mola (obviously knocking it off is nice but its better at eating knock then most mons and it's still a very negative mu). Obviously it has good matchups - ice is great stab, a knock off user that forces out scor is great, and ice shard into moon and non tera dnite is also great, but it's just not nearly as good as it's peak and it's absolutely not in the same tier as stuff like Samu. It's also outclassed by darkrai as a knock user on balance or as a fast dark type in general, which is bad considering how strong and versatile darkrai is.

:heatran: -> B

This thing is not B+, it's fucking garbage. Setting rocks and trapping is nice but that 4x ground weakness is a death sentence considering how prevalent it is, especially on things heatran really would want to check like Kyu, enam, and moth/gouging. It has no reliably recovery so it needs lefties outside of HO, but it still gets worn down incredibly easily due to the prevalence of hazards with shit like samu and scor. It wants to set hazards to justify its place on the team, but also wants taunt to help break fat, protect for extra lefties or gterrain, wisp to help support the team with status, even lava plume for reliable fire stab. Magma storm is a great move ¾ of the time which doesn't cut it with no more toxic and a more offensive meta. It has some niches as it can use flame body sometimes and it can synergize with waterpon on ho as a lead. It's not good though and that really is it's biggest niche, which is tough when you're competing as a rocker on HO with Lando and the degenerate glimm.

:skarmory: -> B

It's bad I'm sorry. I used to defend this mon but the meta has changed and it's not nice to this thing anymore. Beyond passive outside of spikes, IDBP is nice but its outclassed to put it nicely and a lot carries teras that take advantage of it because of Zama. It's abused so hard by so much it's really sad, and as a spiker on balance you already have stuff like scor and ting lu which are insanely good, and even stuff like clod. It's also a steel type that loses to fairies and kyurem ice coverage. It's an alright knock absorber, but that's it. Even corv is also only really hanging on because it gets uturn, and even then whenever I use corv I feel like I've made a mistake and given in to lazy teambuilding. The only real reason to use this is if you want to run sd scor but don't want to run it with ting lu as the spiker. At least it does okay into moon and beats dnite but like just let it drop at this point.

:gouging fire: -> A-

I don't necessarily think it's on a downward trend, I just think it was massively overrated for awhile. It's potentially on an upward trend, and if you asked me a week ago I might have rated it lower. Gouging Fire needs to be respected but I think as a DDer it was largely outclassed by stuff like Dnite and moon, and as a fire on ho iron moth outclasses it. It's largely only seen on HO and it has good traits but really just feels like it thuds a lot of the time. It's very hazard weak, it's bulky but it often can't afford to run healing on ho, it struggles to pick between it's sub par dragon stab and EQ, and it's also forced to pick between reliable damage with flare blitz or a lack of recoil with heat crash, which means that it feels really bad into ting lu. It can't get burned by mola which is nice but tickle sets (which are very legit) manhandle it, prim can trade, there are a lot of grounds and most of them can beat or cripple it depending on the set, and Garg is similarly a staple on balance and can really harm non Morning Sun sets. As well, it's defensive typing isn't bad at all but it certainly is awkward; it's a fire that doesn't resist ice and fairy, which are hands down the typing's best defensive traits, and it's a dragon that's weak to ground, rocks and doesn't resist water, which isn't amazing. It actually does have some cool niches though; quad resisting fire and grass is really nice, especially for rillaboom, especially while not being water weak, and being a dragon that isn't ice or fairy weak is cool. This often means it's only really seen as an HO or sun breaker (Sun sets are still great). However I do think it has seen some cool new tech and has more room to develop new uses. DD Dtail sets are really cool and can exploit roar molt, being a physical attacker that isn't scared of molt or flame body/wisp is great, and I think bulwark sets can potentially have a niche on bulkier teams, where it might seem like a worse molt, but being able to eat water attacks from Samu and come into waterpon with bulk investment is really nice, especially with how much you need to prep for waterpon on those styles (it also just has very nice bulk in general while also being pretty strong and decently fast). I think it's worse then its been ranked for a long time but I think it's getting better. Sun sets are great but if that's all it was used on I'd still put it in B. This has been getting traction for a suspect but I don't think I see it.

:walking wake: -> B

Only as good as sun is; if sun is ranked B, then so is wake.

:Kyurem:

A cop out because I think it's capped at A+ due to its many problems. It has a nice but pretty awkward speed tier, good bulk with a bad defensive typing and little defensive utility. It's also hazard weak and struggles between picking boots and something that will boost it's power. However I think this is the most broken thing in the tier right now, even moreso then waterpon and darkrai, who are both better and more consistent then it. Kyurem has had a lot of innovation seen since the times when it was only boots or specs and it's started feeling like how volc felt in the leadup to its ban, in that if you are not going full offense there is probably a Kyu set out there that beats you. It's sets are all surprisingly different and tend to lack consistent counterplay across all of them. You may scout with a mon checking for specs only for it to click substitute and reveal that it's actually the sub protect set, or it sets up dragon dance, except it's actually also the mixed dd set and you went mola to click scald and it clicks freeze dry. Or it's dd running tera blast except that the tera type and tera blast is the exact one it needs to blow through your team. Technically a lot of mons need to be scouted but kyurem is unique in having near perfect coverage off of two moves in freeze dry and earth power combined with 130 base special attack, meaning it can be technically unwallable depending on the set. It's hazard weak as well, except it's virtually always paired with tusk or ace so it's not as easy as just getting hazards up, and even if you do, that doesn't necessarily stop it, even if it can limit it's entry. This is also forgetting the possibility it has in just netting a freeze, which is less unlikely then it sounds given it's likely going to be clicking it's stab ice moves a lot, and that can often just force the game into a much harder state for the opposing player. I recently had a game against a sub kyurem that I thankfully won, but the entire time I was painfully aware that it just had to get lucky once to really mess up my team. It's too unpredictable and too able to generate progress for itself, especially if it gets lucky. Council talked about it apparently, which is good, but I really think this should be prioritized for a suspect.

More mons I think could potentially go up:

:Iron moth:
:Samurott-hisui:
:greninja:
:enamorus:
:Tornadus-therian:
:serperior:
:hydrapple:

Mons that could potentially go down:

:Slowking-Galar:
:latios:
:ogerpon-cornerstone:
:ursaluna:
:zapdos:
:volcanion:
 
I don't necessarily think it's on a downward trend, I just think it was massively overrated for awhile. It's potentially on an upward trend, and if you asked me a week ago I might have rated it lower. Gouging Fire needs to be respected but I think as a DDer it was largely outclassed by stuff like Dnite and moon, and as a fire on ho iron moth outclasses it. It's largely only seen on HO and it has good traits but really just feels like it thuds a lot of the time. It's very hazard weak, it's bulky but it often can't afford to run healing on ho, it struggles to pick between it's sub par dragon stab and EQ, and it's also forced to pick between reliable damage with flare blitz or a lack of recoil with heat crash, which means that it feels really bad into ting lu. It can't get burned by mola which is nice but tickle sets (which are very legit) manhandle it, prim can trade, there are a lot of grounds and most of them can beat or cripple it depending on the set, and Garg is similarly a staple on balance and can really harm non Morning Sun sets. As well, it's defensive typing isn't bad at all but it certainly is awkward; it's a fire that doesn't resist ice and fairy, which are hands down the typing's best defensive traits, and it's a dragon that's weak to ground, rocks and doesn't resist water, which isn't amazing. It actually does have some cool niches though; quad resisting fire and grass is really nice, especially for rillaboom, especially while not being water weak, and being a dragon that isn't ice or fairy weak is cool. This often means it's only really seen as an HO or sun breaker (Sun sets are still great). However I do think it has seen some cool new tech and has more room to develop new uses. DD Dtail sets are really cool and can exploit roar molt, being a physical attacker that isn't scared of molt or flame body/wisp is great, and I think bulwark sets can potentially have a niche on bulkier teams, where it might seem like a worse molt, but being able to eat water attacks from Samu and come into waterpon with bulk investment is really nice, especially with how much you need to prep for waterpon on those styles (it also just has very nice bulk in general while also being pretty strong and decently fast). I think it's worse then its been ranked for a long time but I think it's getting better. Sun sets are great but if that's all it was used on I'd still put it in B. This has been getting traction for a suspect but I don't think I see it.

I don't know how you could argue it's worse than it's been ranked when it's been just getting better as players keep pushing the limits on what we think is possible with it. I don't know why you'd claim it's been overrated, it's performed really well for a while now and if anything has been getting better with the direction the tier has been moving. It offers a unique profile as a set up mon for HO, and btw some set up Gouging on those teams can run Morning Sun even offensive sets. It has way more beyond those, and it's tough to check even as some have used Tera Blast sets to BS would be checks. Especially with the tier being defined by the fast paced offense, it's strong I'd say against opposing offense as a result of the nice neutralities and resistances it has that give it entry for set up. Furthermore, I don't really think you'd compare it to DNite as a DDer since that is more utility that can sweep potentially, but often is brought out for its defensive ability to check offensive threats, and Roaring Moon is frankly worse than Gouging. There's more ways to prep for it and teams kinda are.

Mons that could potentially go down:

:Slowking-Galar:
:latios:
:ogerpon-cornerstone:
:ursaluna:
:zapdos:
:volcanion:

Also not really understanding this. Glowking is a little worse than before (which is why it dropped out of S-) but it's a crucial piece for defensive and generally bulky teams that does a lot for them. Cornerstone is admittedly facing opportunity cost with its other two forms, but it's a strong pick on offense none the less because of its more immediately threatening stab combo and potential Sturdy giving it unique utility. Luna is fine were it is, not the most splashable but also a threatening pokemon and has put in results that show it's viable. Zapdos feels weird to drop considering it's gradually been picking up more and more usage lately, and is better than it was months ago. And Volcanion... not really sure why you'd drop it when it just went up?
 
corv and skarm are fine where they are, you can say they are bad if you are looking at scenarios in a vacuum like "oooo they cant beat ghold" but these two are valuable glues in cores for balance that do well vs the current offenses being ran on ladder. the only other mon that glues similar to these on specific cores is moltres, which i consider better, but the vr reflects that well.

not sure what tios is doing in B+, i consider it worse than everything else in the rank and several mons in B are better
 
Nominating :Hydrapple: to B/maybe B+

Hydrapple is underrated and does not deserve to be stuck in the same tier as shitters like :Iron Boulder: and :Venusaur:. It acts as a solid balance breaker that still brings value against offense thanks to its bulk letting it check physical threats. In particular it has a very good matchup against garg, as it both heals off salt cure damage with regen, shrugs off even boosted body presses/eqs, and actually threatens it directly as opposed to gking. I've been trying and liking Yache berry to let it beat bulk up tusk even after being chipped, as well as for catching kyurem and darkrai off-guard.

Hydrapple @ Yache Berry/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power

I honestly forget exactly what the EVs are for so it can probably be optimized more, but these serve the job of feeling both bulky and strong. Draco is better than fickle beam because the guaranteed damage boost is helpful for hitting bulky neutral targets like lando and zama. I went with tera fairy for a good neutral defensive type, but other options like steel or ghost are probably good too.
 
Why is Lokix C+ on the VR?
Tera Bug Tinted Lens Choice Band First Impression go thwap.

Seriously though, it's a very difficult hit for most offensive pokemon to take, since Tinted Lens eliminates the prospect of thugging it out with a type that resists Bug

It also has other useful moves in back like Knock Off, Leech Life, and U-Turn.
Pair it with a slow pivot like Alomomola or Glowking, and it can be potent at cleaning late-game, once potential checks like Moltres are gone or sufficiently chipped.
 
Spicy Duck :quaquaval: raise to C/C+
I have found DUCK to be a very consistent support Pokémon for HOs. It has encore, spin, and its own sweeping threat with Aqua Step + Moxie. With mirror herb, it covers annoying stuff for HO like :dragonite::kingambit::weavile:

here’s a replay pretty high on ladder where it gets one free turn on zama then just blanks the opponent’s team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2181337569-vd3a6l3z95vn2c4jhdrzrs5fzyvnwhqpw

It is pretty move limited, wishing it could use knock, SD, and Upper Hand or fighting StAb too, so I don’t think it could be much higher. I user spinner to punk incoming MONKE (:rillaboom:) and to not get obliterated by rocky helmet as it would with Triple Axel.

:lokix: raise to B+ ??
Seems crazy high for this garbo bug, but Tinted lens is just really OP and band Tera bug First impression is (one of?) the best revenge killing tools into anything that isn’t stall. Banded leech life also funky. Showing pretty good results in OLT.
 
You want band to hit hard but not only does clicking first impression put you in a bad position but you also need heavy amounts of hazard control due to it being rocks weak. It still is quite good and did see play in cycle 2 of olt
At the expense of some power, Boots can be slotted onto Lokix to avoid having to shell out on arguably excessive hazard control for your team. It's the better option for longevity, and the flexibility of not being locked into a move that you can only use once after switching in, but it doesn't massage the brain in quite the same way as clicking FI on the band set and watching whatever offensive threat is in front of you, drop like a lead balloon.
 
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