Yeah, WW having to actually use a dragon stab that cuts its power and can be blocked by anybody if you click tera makes it worse. The people who compare Wake with Dracovish forgets that it will just click one move unless the rival was using a water absorb mon because FR was so strong on Vish that even resist could get OHKO with it.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Wake isn't gonna drop Hydreigon to UU, they do different things. Hydreigon is still very scary with Nasty Plot and recently we've seen Sub sets pop up that can straight up 6-0 teams. Wake is competition, sure, but Hydra still has enough usage to stay in OU from what I'm seeing.
Yeah for sure, they fill different niches in my opinion.
More broken shit has been banned in the first few months of this meta than in the first few YEARS of gen 5 lol, completely incomparable.
I don't know if you have noticed this but ever since waking wake dropped in hydreigon stopped seeing any usage.
5.75% is not zero usage.
that's the usage it had last month,not this month.
the usage statistics are updated at the end of each month.
I do think Wake decreases Hydreigon's viability, but its not only Wake. Pult is another Mon that SPAMs DMs, while doing many other things. There is also Roaring Moon, who shares typing and is better than Hydreigon, though its physical.
Neither Pult, nor Wake have Nasty Plot though. Pult has U-Turn, Wake not. Neither Pult, nor Wake have Stealth Rock. So, Hydreigon should be running one of these sets:
Rocks + 3 Attacks (one can be U-Turn).
NP + 3 Attacks (preferably with LO, Tera Steel is probably optimal for this one).
NP + Sub + 2 Attacks (Tera Ghost, Poison and Steel are good). One of the attacks has to be Dark Pulse, the other would be one of DM, Surf, Flamethrower and Flash Cannon.
Its a decent Mon, but it only breaks specific type of teams (slow balances) and has much competition. Its not only Wake, but Wake does contribute to the decreased usage as another much stronger Dragon. Using Nasty Plot is harder than just clicking Specs Draco Meteor and watching something die.
Neither Pult, nor Wake have Nasty Plot though. Pult has U-Turn, Wake not. Neither Pult, nor Wake have Stealth Rock. So, Hydreigon should be running one of these sets:
Rocks + 3 Attacks (one can be U-Turn).
NP + 3 Attacks (preferably with LO, Tera Steel is probably optimal for this one).
NP + Sub + 2 Attacks (Tera Ghost, Poison and Steel are good). One of the attacks has to be Dark Pulse, the other would be one of DM, Surf, Flamethrower and Flash Cannon.
Its a decent Mon, but it only breaks specific type of teams (slow balances) and has much competition. Its not only Wake, but Wake does contribute to the decreased usage as another much stronger Dragon. Using Nasty Plot is harder than just clicking Specs Draco Meteor and watching something die.
sorry yall... i lied...
That typing really does hurt it. Not just defensively, its types don't really compliment each other greatly while not being that strong either. Yeah it has base 130 atk, but it doesn't get nearly enough mileage out of its signature move as much as Walking Wake does sadly. Compare that to fellow grass type with 130 atk Breloom, who has a 150 bp STAB with Dice and also has Mach punch, which is a superior type to Psyblade. It could've been great if we had a good eterrain setter, but alas
The typing is just so bad, while also needs terrain support and Tera for coverage, it is great against fat but you still to give him a lot of support.
Honestly don't get on yourself, I don't think its a bad Pokémon. I think there's more threatening physical attackers than it currently (in the meta) but I still think it's viable. I feel like Booster Energy set Attack or Speed is both pretty good if you have Swords Dance or Trailblaze. It's the 4x weakness to Bug which is annoying to switch on (plus the fact a lot of things have Sucker Punch / U-turn) so your best bet is to tera off the bat depending on the matchups your dealt with.
I modestly consider myself the Iron Moth expert, considering how much I've used it competitively (especially during the first 3 months of SV), and I do believe that it is quite underrated as a Special wallbreaker. Jokes aside, my favourite set was by far Specs 4 attacks:
Iron Moth @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Psychic
- Energy Ball
With Tera Grass Energy Ball hits incredibly hard, being able to cleanly 3HKO Clod and 2HKO Ting Lu, which are by far the most resilient Special walls in OU (besides Blissey and Chansey of course). It's also good as an anti-lead against Sash Glimmora and Garchomp, which either set up rocks (always the right move btw) or EQ/Earth Power, therefore becoming unable to set more entry hazards on the field since Moth can just kill them.
I prefer Fiery Dance over Flamethrower because it allows you to almost always 1v1 Volcarona, thanks to the 50% SpA boost, especially considering that Moth has a pretty solid Special bulk. Sludge Wave and Psychic are just good coverage moves overall, with Psychic in particular allowing you to 2HKO Clodsire and opposing Moths.
Overheat and Fire Blast are also good moves, but I think they are far better suited for Sun teams since they turn into literal nukes, and are far less consistent outside of it.
Iron Leaves has everything going for it except the typing honestly. That said I think another issue with Psyblade is that it doesn't really compliment or cover any holes in its build the way Hydro Steam does for Wake (Water hates Sun -> Wake now exploits Sun), so there's not really a major benefit to it as a Signature move compared to generic Psychic STABs because Electric Terrain just isn't viable as a full playstyle the way Sun was before Wake and certainly after its introduction. Its STAB neutral coverage is also a lot less exciting and spammable than Walking Wake's Water/Dragon, which comes back to bite it since it could play around decently with 2 moveslots instead of an absolute need for 3 move coverage (Tera Blast since it really needs the change, Double Dance, Taunt for more set-up chances on Fat Mons, etc.).
Other than that, SD and Agility give it some boosting versatility, and its typing coverage, while not too massive, does include some decently high power Fighting moves. Set-up Sweeper is a good role to use Tera even as a "you really have to use it here" level role. Its stats are pretty decent in the part too, it's just hampered a lot by the above and the general Paradox issue of essentially having no ability (I usually think of Booster Energy sets as being one-time "Item" sets akin to running Sitrus Berry on a BD user unless the Pokemon exploits the used-up Item aspect too akin to Unburden Hawlucha mostly setting off its ability, or Acrobatics Roaring Moon which both wants the speed and the Expended Item for Flying Power).
Other than that, SD and Agility give it some boosting versatility, and its typing coverage, while not too massive, does include some decently high power Fighting moves. Set-up Sweeper is a good role to use Tera even as a "you really have to use it here" level role. Its stats are pretty decent in the part too, it's just hampered a lot by the above and the general Paradox issue of essentially having no ability (I usually think of Booster Energy sets as being one-time "Item" sets akin to running Sitrus Berry on a BD user unless the Pokemon exploits the used-up Item aspect too akin to Unburden Hawlucha mostly setting off its ability, or Acrobatics Roaring Moon which both wants the speed and the Expended Item for Flying Power).
You didnt, your just looking at it the wrong way
Slap a choice band on that thing
trust me
＼(≧▽≦)／ (Dragonite) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- Roost
Pretty OP set. Completely owns Tusk and blanket checks many other Pokemon like Corviknight and Dozo. I've had more success w/ this than the standard DD set lol.
i mean, it's probably the most viable a grass/psychic type has ever been in ou. except for gen 3-4 celebi. and gen 1 exeggutor. well, at least in can switch in on… uh… great tusk, unless it's running knock off or ice spinner, its two most common coverage moves by far?
man i suck at this consolation thing
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Alright so right now im bored so im gonna make a question for everybody (also im on cellphone so sorry if bad grammar)
Since I already asked for your favorite wallbreakers, what are your favorite sweepers and cleaners
For sweepers, My favorites are Volcarona, agility Iron Moth, curse Garganacl, bulk up tusk, DDance Bax and most importantly of all, BU Power Trip corviknight
And as cleaners, for me, its either Scarf Meowscarada or Scarf Gholdengo
Since I already asked for your favorite wallbreakers, what are your favorite sweepers and cleaners
For sweepers, My favorites are Volcarona, agility Iron Moth, curse Garganacl, bulk up tusk, DDance Bax and most importantly of all, BU Power Trip corviknight
And as cleaners, for me, its either Scarf Meowscarada or Scarf Gholdengo
my favorite sweeper is volcarona because there's always been like a single-digit number of mons that it loses to and this gen it doesn't even really lose to them so it's great for carrying my unskilled ass
as for cleaners, booster energy iron valiant. they/them mixed attackers hit different
Gambit cause it requires minimal brain power and why use your brain when playing mons. Where’s the fun in that
Eh I'd still say just most of the time, it is still crippled by Knock Off and is forced to Tera if Tusk is running Ice Spinner
Booster Energy Valiant might be my favorite sweeper. Very good speed tier, ability to Calm Mind and options of moves like Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Moon Blast.
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock
IMO usually the most threatening mon I see, because you don't know what set it's running with Booster Energy (Can run physical set with Liquadation and Tera Water).
While it is unreleased, they both fit basically the same role with the same typing. I can see why we're making the parallels here, but Kyurem-Black is actually superior to Bax. Better overall stats (115/145/92/75/86/86 vs 125/170/100/120/90/95), can actually make very good use of a Mixed set, doesn't debilitate itself with a No Miss + Double Damage debuff, has its own 120 BP STAB move (Outrage), and actually has more reliable Ice STAB plus a better overall move pool. It also isn't mostly reliant on Choice Band or Dragon Dance.
The point is more that Kyurem-B is not indicated by anything to be coming into the game at such a point where it is relevant beyond a point of reference from previous meta games.
With that said from that angle, I disagree with at least half of the points you are making in favor of Kyu-B in this particular post, primarily in regards to the move discussion and item reliance. Would also cite that Bax's immunity to burns is a massive Boon on a Physical attacker
There is no scenario under which I would consider Outrage superior to Glaive Rush as a Physical Dragon STAB, because Outrage locking you in yields a much worse drawback in the event it works, since Kyurem is forced into the move multiple times even without concerns for Confusion. Bax's extra damage taken only persists until its next action (which STAB Ice Shard could help circumvent without totally forfeiting momentum), while retaining the ability to switch-out or attack with another move to avoid limiting responses any more than necessary. Outrage even when it works will leave you stuck throwing the same move out, making the response significantly easier and exploitable on Band/AoA sets, while Dragon Claw incurs a drop in power that keeps Bax decently ahead on comparable items.
252 Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 160-190 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Reliable Ice STAB is moot, with Kyu-B only possessing Icicle Spear for reliable Physical STAB, a move Bax also has access to if you don't want Icicle Crash (the move most prescribed for Kyu-B before anyway) and in fact seems to run as a rogue option with Loaded Dice in some teams.
Kyurem-B's movepool is only particularly better than Bax if running mixed sets. Physically they both are going to run into some mild obstacle with limited move options (Kyurem needs EP Mixed to hit Steels compared to Bax EQ, while Bax lacks SE Fusion Bolt Coverage for stuff like Corviknight or particularly fat Waters).
Lack of mixed sets, a worse speed, and marginally lower Bulk are fair points but the others are not particularly strong points when making the comparison, nor do they forward the discussion when people are focusing on Bax as a 1-2 trick pony whose 1-2 tricks is extremely hard wallbreaking anyway rather than seeking variety.
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