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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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252 Atk Guts Ursaluna Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 332-392 (114 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not too fast.
I know, but that move is only used for some rare answers, like the Ceruledge or other Levitate Ghosts (which are just used for Ursaluna most of the time) . For regular OU threats Crunch is not needed, so unless Balloon Ceruledge (or something like Drifblim) becomes common, Ursaluna won't be running Crunch, therefore the few counters it has will be valid counters.
These are the type of counters that are better when people don't account for them when building, similar to Buzzwole last Gen, which walled everything at first but then SD Garchomp started using LO + Fire Blast and Kartana started using Aerial Ace.
I think a very underdiscussed solution for Trick Room HO could be slot to slot your own Trick Room on mons such as Iron Valiant, Meowscarada or Hoopa-U in order to cancel out the effect of the one already active.
Y
if there was an ability or a move that removes the effect of trick room, that would be good. Imagine if defog also got rid of TR.
You are right, but there is no way I will waste a slot for TR when it doesn't benefit my team. Thats like running sunny day on a specific mon just to make sure when you encounter a rain teams, it doesnt sweep you.
if there was an ability or a move that removes the effect of trick room, that would be good. Imagine if defog also got rid of TR.
I wanted to discuss my thoughts on Tera after Home.
- Personally, I love Tera & I thought it was somewhat balanced before Home. Sure some mons where stronger cuz of it, but overall, it was manageable.
- After Home however, I feel like its way too RNG reliant. You can never tell which Pokemon (Defensively or Offensively) will Tera & which Tera it will be.You just have to get lucky at this point. Also, so many mons are just broken with Tera nowadays.
- Personally, I love Tera & I thought it was somewhat balanced before Home. Sure some mons where stronger cuz of it, but overall, it was manageable.
- After Home however, I feel like its way too RNG reliant. You can never tell which Pokemon (Defensively or Offensively) will Tera & which Tera it will be.You just have to get lucky at this point. Also, so many mons are just broken with Tera nowadays.
Whenever I’m not building the rawest of hyper offenses I like to slot Protect on all of my defensive mons. That way you can stall out TR.
Don't let them set up trick room, have a ghost type (like hisuian zoroark), bulky rocky helmet landorus-t, switch stall through trick room turns. TR teams are matchup cheese at this point (or just run 0iv -speed enamorus-therian and out room the room team)
Certainly a reasonable point of view and definitely less optimal now compared to when Mag was legal but could be an interesting solution in my opinion for some styles of HO that have a hard match-up against Trick Room due to not being able to fit in the appropriate answers
Honestly, I will most likely run a slow bulky mon with 0 IVs in speed just to counter TR & specifically Ursaluna.
enamorus-t with grass knot will, if not outright kill ursaluna, leave it weak enough to be picked off by whatever priority you run if you choose to run priority
Trick Room has extremely negative priority, -6, carrying it to cancel one out will probably just get you smoked on the turn you try to remove it. Protect on your bulky mons will get you farther. I know Protect spam makes me want to ragequit when I'm running TR.
Than
Thanks foe the knowledge. I already run Enamorus-T since its so good.
There are probably much more effective strategies as an alternative and I personally think it could be effective only on a predicted switch/Chilly Reception/Healing Wish even though I could probably just use Taunt. Can't underestimate the funny factor though
vouch
Do I gotta Pet Mod for you!
So now that everybody's had a proper chance to use it, what do people think about Sneasler? Its Band set for me has seemed rather underwhelming, as you have to have good prediction on any team with Gholdengo, which is a lot of them. SD Unburden seems a lot more potent, and I have learned that many teams just crumble to Tera Flying Acrobatics + Night Slash + Close Combat. Currently using Rillaboom as a terrain setter for it, passive recovery is actually nice for it because it allows it to use its resistances (grass, fighting, rock) effectively over the course of a match. Night Slash is used over Fire Punch for every other ghost that's not Gholdengo. I've also found use for a more supportive set with Poison Touch with U-Turn, Dire Claw, Close Combat, and Fake Out for spreading status effectively. Tera Fighting is useful on such a set to get past Corv and Tusk. I definitely still think it's banworthy, because while both have counters, they are not shared counters, and I find myself having to sack a pokemon often just to figure out the set.
I use a protective pads set with the set of U-Turn, Dire Claw, CC and fake out you mentioned. It spams U-Turn and fake out all game while dire claw also has additional effects, making it a decent status spreader.
On the upcoming tiering radar, it is likely we include 
again despite it not getting support last time. In addition, I personally plan to vote ban on Volcarona this weekend and I think others within the council are discussing/considering their options as well. My guess is that it stays OU, but as a community we should seriously assess this Pokemon and its antics a bit further moving forward.
Volcarona was drowned out a bit by the hype of new toys and the overbearing nature of the first couple of broken Pokemon perhaps, but it has retained and arguably gained viability and effectiveness with the transition from pre-HOME to post-HOME.
I already believed that Volcarona was broken prior to HOME, but it was so close that we never had time for a formal suspect test on it. Now we have a fresh metagame, but it has adapted with Tera Water or even Tera Ground offensively while even occasionally running Tera Ghost for ESpeed revenge killers.
Offensively, it can handpick its own counters. Scared of Heatran walking normal moves? Tera Water and Tera Ground do the trick. Skeledirge falls into the same boat, of course. Scared of revenge killers with priority? You can run Substitute for Sucker Punch or Tera Ghost for ESpeed as I mentioned before while hardly any scarfers do the trick after a Quiver Dance. Even things like Clodsire can lose to Substitute + Tera Grass, but at least this and bulkier variants have fallen out of favor with Heatran’s release. Given this, there is at least some counterplay and some intuition that can allow for eliminating some options or forming a hypothesis as to what Tera and set it may be. But is: that enough? I don’t really think so.
Yes, Tera is the overall problem here, but it’s not being reassessed for a little longer. Yes, Zama-H and maybe a few others are also just as, if not even more, problematic. But we need to consider changing the narrative on Volcarona. It’s unreasonable right now.
again despite it not getting support last time. In addition, I personally plan to vote ban on Volcarona this weekend and I think others within the council are discussing/considering their options as well. My guess is that it stays OU, but as a community we should seriously assess this Pokemon and its antics a bit further moving forward.Volcarona was drowned out a bit by the hype of new toys and the overbearing nature of the first couple of broken Pokemon perhaps, but it has retained and arguably gained viability and effectiveness with the transition from pre-HOME to post-HOME.
I already believed that Volcarona was broken prior to HOME, but it was so close that we never had time for a formal suspect test on it. Now we have a fresh metagame, but it has adapted with Tera Water or even Tera Ground offensively while even occasionally running Tera Ghost for ESpeed revenge killers.
Offensively, it can handpick its own counters. Scared of Heatran walking normal moves? Tera Water and Tera Ground do the trick. Skeledirge falls into the same boat, of course. Scared of revenge killers with priority? You can run Substitute for Sucker Punch or Tera Ghost for ESpeed as I mentioned before while hardly any scarfers do the trick after a Quiver Dance. Even things like Clodsire can lose to Substitute + Tera Grass, but at least this and bulkier variants have fallen out of favor with Heatran’s release. Given this, there is at least some counterplay and some intuition that can allow for eliminating some options or forming a hypothesis as to what Tera and set it may be. But is: that enough? I don’t really think so.
Yes, Tera is the overall problem here, but it’s not being reassessed for a little longer. Yes, Zama-H and maybe a few others are also just as, if not even more, problematic. But we need to consider changing the narrative on Volcarona. It’s unreasonable right now.
I genuinely think seedler is broken and should be considered for a ban. I'm not even getting into the nightmare that is dire claw but seedler is objectively better seedlucha and would be even more ridiculous if grassy glide was still in the game. Unburden mons are already a nightmare to deal with in simplified gamestates and sneasler can do things even without a proc'd unburden.
KrazyKoopa95
you really, really do not need to go to such lengths as including your own trick room or 0iv -spe pokémon to come out on top against trick room teams.
as with every generation, there will be like one single trick room team that is a niche counter-team pick due to the natural limitations in setters & abusers, so don’t expect it to be a mainstay of the metagame.
the way to defeat these teams is with proactive play & solid, positional midgrounds against their threats whilst trick room is up. with some pokémon, such as g8 marowak-a, life orb melmetal, & now ursaluna, this is easier said than done, to put it mildly - but you must capitalise on the turns where the team is most vulnerable.
tldr: choose your lead & subsequent plays carefully, plan for when & with which pokémon they’re next to set trick room up with & how to punish it as hard as possible, and try to minimise the value they get out of active turns. l2p, basically.
you really, really do not need to go to such lengths as including your own trick room or 0iv -spe pokémon to come out on top against trick room teams.
as with every generation, there will be like one single trick room team that is a niche counter-team pick due to the natural limitations in setters & abusers, so don’t expect it to be a mainstay of the metagame.
the way to defeat these teams is with proactive play & solid, positional midgrounds against their threats whilst trick room is up. with some pokémon, such as g8 marowak-a, life orb melmetal, & now ursaluna, this is easier said than done, to put it mildly - but you must capitalise on the turns where the team is most vulnerable.
tldr: choose your lead & subsequent plays carefully, plan for when & with which pokémon they’re next to set trick room up with & how to punish it as hard as possible, and try to minimise the value they get out of active turns. l2p, basically.
Was there enough support from the survey to have it on the radar / quickban table? last time on the survey it didn't even reach a 3/5 on action support (overall votes).On the upcoming tiering radar, it is likely we include
Volcarona was drowned out a bit by the hype of new toys and the overbearing nature of the first couple of broken Pokemon perhaps, but it has retained and arguably gained viability and effectiveness with the transition from pre-HOME to post-HOME.
I already believed that Volcarona was broken prior to HOME, but it was so close that we never had time for a formal suspect test on it. Now we have a fresh metagame, but it has adapted with Tera Water or even Tera Ground offensively while even occasionally running Tera Ghost for ESpeed revenge killers.
Offensively, it can handpick its own counters. Scared of Heatran walking normal moves? Tera Water and Tera Ground do the trick. Skeledirge falls into the same boat, of course. Scared of revenge killers with priority? You can run Substitute for Sucker Punch or Tera Ghost for ESpeed as I mentioned before while hardly any scarfers do the trick after a Quiver Dance. Even things like Clodsire can lose to Substitute + Tera Grass, but at least this and bulkier variants have fallen out of favor with Heatran’s release. Given this, there is at least some counterplay and some intuition that can allow for eliminating some options or forming a hypothesis as to what Tera and set it may be. But is: that enough? I don’t really think so.
Yes, Tera is the overall problem here, but it’s not being reassessed for a little longer. Yes, Zama-H and maybe a few others are also just as, if not even more, problematic. But we need to consider changing the narrative on Volcarona. It’s unreasonable right now.
Response data: (Prior survey)
- Qualified: 3.05/5
- General: 2.91/5
3.05 qualified is easily enough to keep it in talks, but also we didn’t even include it in this survey since we were more focused on the first vote this week
Can we assume that Volc and others whose largest breaking factor is Tera would be quickly revisited should Tera be nerfed/banned? I understand we're supposed to evaluate the metagame now and that's a few steps away, but it's backwards to me to chase a symptom when the cause is acknowledged.On the upcoming tiering radar, it is likely we include
Volcarona was drowned out a bit by the hype of new toys and the overbearing nature of the first couple of broken Pokemon perhaps, but it has retained and arguably gained viability and effectiveness with the transition from pre-HOME to post-HOME.
I already believed that Volcarona was broken prior to HOME, but it was so close that we never had time for a formal suspect test on it. Now we have a fresh metagame, but it has adapted with Tera Water or even Tera Ground offensively while even occasionally running Tera Ghost for ESpeed revenge killers.
Offensively, it can handpick its own counters. Scared of Heatran walking normal moves? Tera Water and Tera Ground do the trick. Skeledirge falls into the same boat, of course. Scared of revenge killers with priority? You can run Substitute for Sucker Punch or Tera Ghost for ESpeed as I mentioned before while hardly any scarfers do the trick after a Quiver Dance. Even things like Clodsire can lose to Substitute + Tera Grass, but at least this and bulkier variants have fallen out of favor with Heatran’s release. Given this, there is at least some counterplay and some intuition that can allow for eliminating some options or forming a hypothesis as to what Tera and set it may be. But is: that enough? I don’t really think so.
Yes, Tera is the overall problem here, but it’s not being reassessed for a little longer. Yes, Zama-H and maybe a few others are also just as, if not even more, problematic. But we need to consider changing the narrative on Volcarona. It’s unreasonable right now.
I'm not a tournament player and I get why dealing with broken elements ASAP is so important, but hearing "We're waiting on Tera until after these majors, now hold on while we ban more Pokemon broken by Tera while we finish these majors," is jarring.
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