Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Volcarona is emblematic of everything wrong with Tera: too many viable sets that punish too hard. I think we're all familiar with the experience of bringing in your Volc check (e.g. bulky Cinderace) and then it Teras into one of its 8 viable Tera types and you lose. However, every pokemon does this to an extent. Volc is special because it can win games with so very little setup, but stuff like Iron Hands, Ceruledge, Baxcalibur, Gholdengo, any of our dragons, basically anything that uses setup moves can abuse Tera to get free turns or to blow past checks. To deal with these pokemon reliably, you not only have to have something that can beat their regular form, but also something that can beat them with Tera and setup. For example, Iron Hands is normally checked by Great Tusk, until it Teras Flying and then you're tasked with dealing with +2 Drain Punch and Wild Charge on this Pokemon with gargantuan bulk. On the flip side, stuff like Sandy Shocks and the now-banned Regieleki can abuse Tera to get unresisted coverage. But these Pokemon still have weaknesses: Sandy Shocks falls to anything faster thanks to its frail bulk and Iron Hands gets beaten by strong neutral hits repeatedly. The issue is that you have 6 pokemon on your team that can Tera for no cost. If you are facing a team that isn't favorable to one of your pokemon Teraing and sweeping, then you can just not Tera that pokemon and use it with something else. The other part of Tera that I feel is uncompetitive is that for pokemon like Volc, it's unpredictable which Tera type they are even in-game. Do you bring out your Dondozo and risk falling to Tera Grass or do you bring out your Clodsire and risk falling to Tera Ground, assuming you have both in the first place? Whichever you choose, if you predict wrong, your wall is dead.
Tl;dr- tera too hard to deal with in the teambuilder and unpredictability is dumb in games
 

Finchinator

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I'm not a tournament player and I get why dealing with broken elements ASAP is so important, but hearing "We're waiting on Tera until after these majors, now hold on while we ban more Pokemon broken by Tera while we finish these majors," is jarring.
Not entirely sure there is any “winning” in this scenario.

From the jump, we suspected Tera after a few weeks to give it an authentic chance to see if it’s a mechanic that has a place, how many things people perceive it to break, and so on. That suspect concluded and it wasn’t banned.

Now, we are waiting a month or so to begin discussions, which will likely lead to any action being mid-Summer rather than so quick. Yes, WCOP logistically factored in since it’s the single biggest SV OU event in the entire calendar year, but regardless we already tried the “test ASAP” strategy and now there’s a balancing act prior to any testing.

Tournaments don’t dictate much of our agenda — we had multiple bans and suspects during SPL and OST, for example, which are also huge. Not sure what else is expected from us.
 
Volcarona is emblematic of everything wrong with Tera: too many viable sets that punish too hard. I think we're all familiar with the experience of bringing in your Volc check (e.g. bulky Cinderace) and then it Teras into one of its 8 viable Tera types and you lose. However, every pokemon does this to an extent. Volc is special because it can win games with so very little setup, but stuff like Iron Hands, Ceruledge, Baxcalibur, Gholdengo, any of our dragons, basically anything that uses setup moves can abuse Tera to get free turns or to blow past checks. To deal with these pokemon reliably, you not only have to have something that can beat their regular form, but also something that can beat them with Tera and setup. For example, Iron Hands is normally checked by Great Tusk, until it Teras Flying and then you're tasked with dealing with +2 Drain Punch and Wild Charge on this Pokemon with gargantuan bulk. On the flip side, stuff like Sandy Shocks and the now-banned Regieleki can abuse Tera to get unresisted coverage. But these Pokemon still have weaknesses: Sandy Shocks falls to anything faster thanks to its frail bulk and Iron Hands gets beaten by strong neutral hits repeatedly. The issue is that you have 6 pokemon on your team that can Tera for no cost. If you are facing a team that isn't favorable to one of your pokemon Teraing and sweeping, then you can just not Tera that pokemon and use it with something else. The other part of Tera that I feel is uncompetitive is that for pokemon like Volc, it's unpredictable which Tera type they are even in-game. Do you bring out your Dondozo and risk falling to Tera Grass or do you bring out your Clodsire and risk falling to Tera Ground, assuming you have both in the first place? Whichever you choose, if you predict wrong, your wall is dead.
Tl;dr- tera too hard to deal with in the teambuilder and unpredictability is dumb in games

Very much agreed. Even with tera preview there would be way too much variance having to dance around the possibility of any of your opponent's pokemon using tera or trying to figure out when, and it just creates too many issues overall to keep around in its current state, or even in restrictions. I would personally vote ban because the mechanic is just too much of a mindgame, and would continue to be too much of a mindgame and headache for a healthy meta even with tera preview.
 

awyp

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Not entirely sure there is any “winning” in this scenario.

From the jump, we suspected Tera after a few weeks to give it an authentic chance to see if it’s a mechanic that has a place, how many things people perceive it to break, and so on. That suspect concluded and it wasn’t banned.

Now, we are waiting a month or so to begin discussions, which will likely lead to any action being mid-Summer rather than so quick. Yes, WCOP logistically favored in since it’s the single biggest SV OU event in the entire calendar year, but regardless we already tried the “test ASAP” strategy and now there’s a balancing act prior to any testing.

Tournaments don’t dictate much of our agenda — we had multiple bans and suspects during SPL and OST, for example, which are also huge. Not sure what else is expected from us.

Yeah Tera vote was concluded by a slight margin to stay as is right? so if something has that close of a margin it would warrant a potential test in the future since this is a highly debated / talked about mechanic that both sides have a strong opinion on. If World Cup wasn't a factor, why wouldn't there be a retest as soon as HOME came out just like we did when SV (first iteration) came out, we waited 3-4 weeks for a suspect test on tera, why don't we do the same thing here since it's perfect opportunity of a new meta (I'd think 6 months is a long enough time)? The only reasoning behind it would be the World Cup. I don't know what waiting an additional 2 months will do?


I'm not saying waiting for the World Cup isn't a problem, but I don't know why you're saying it's not really a factor (and doesn't dictate the agenda) when it's been voiced in the past by members of the council that doing something that drastic during the WCOP will upset some folks?

And the multiple bans that happened during OST / SPL were mons not a game defining mechanic. Tera Vote happened RIGHT BEFORE SPL.

(Fair warning this is not an attack at the council, this is just me stating some questions)
 

njnp

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(This is a rushed post, excuse grammar)

I intend to be voting ban on Volcarona
. I've found the Pokemon to be rather uncompetitive for months and home hasn't really changed that...in fact it has made things worse with how Volcarona has adapted its tera and certain checks no longer are able to handle it. I've been discussing this for weeks internally and amongst peers, I pushed heavily for Volcarona to be on the previous radar and now I will be pulling the trigger on voting to ban it. I find this is the most match-up skewed Pokemon and has been from the start of the tier, sure Tera makes it broken but heading into WCOP as we all know we aren't touching Tera until it has concluded. With the new additions Volc has not gotten worse at all, it's performing just as well maybe even better than it did pre-home.

For example, we were using Cinderace, AV Pex, Banded D Nite, etc as measures to it, and don't get me wrong it could still get past those but players would prefer to run other sets due to various other metagame consistencies in the tier. Now, tera water/ground Volc is very common with the presence of Heatran, Slowking-G, and resisting those power jets from Basc-M and Shifu Stike. Along with the lack of toxic distribution really has most builders I'd imagine thrown for a loop on how to prepare for it. I feel it currently is in the same lane as Shifu-R as it has the tools to just pick its counters and just muscle through them and that is really impossible to prep for in the SV tera metagame.

I'd also like to mention unlike previous generations most viable scarfers currently either don't have a strong enough move to revenge it, are outsped by it after a quiver dance, or simply don't have a safe move to click vs it due to the potential tera implications...leaves most builders grasping for straws, using soft checks like Ting Lu to hopefully put themselves in a position late game where it won't be able to clean their plate.


https://pokepast.es/cbda9b34e367ec29 - Here's a fun team provided by Vert so you can abuse volcarona as well ❤
 
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Why is G-Articuno on High on the Home viability ranking? It is because is the new "flavor of the month" Screens team Stored Power user?? or is any good outisde of cheese HO?? I mean was a PU mon last gen
 

Finchinator

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Yeah Tera vote was concluded by a slight margin to stay as is right? so if something has that close of a margin it would warrant a potential test in the future since this is a highly debated / talked about mechanic that both sides have a strong opinion on. If World Cup wasn't a factor, why wouldn't there be a retest as soon as HOME came out just like we did when SV (first iteration) came out, we waited 3-4 weeks for a suspect test on tera, why don't we do the same thing here since it's perfect opportunity of a new meta (I'd think 6 months is a long enough time)? The only reasoning behind it would be the World Cup. I don't know what waiting an additional 2 months will do?


I'm not saying waiting for the World Cup isn't a problem, but I don't know why you're saying it's not really a factor (and doesn't dictate the agenda) when it's been voiced in the past by members of the council that doing something that drastic during the WCOP will upset some folks?

And the multiple bans that happened during OST / SPL were mons not a game defining mechanic. Tera Vote happened RIGHT BEFORE SPL.

(Fair warning this is not an attack at the council, this is just me stating some questions)
In my post, I quite literally said WCOP logistically factored in. I have no clue how we are jumping from me saying that to you claiming I am implying WCOP is not a factor.

Yes, I also provided other reasons. They exist. Tiering and timing is not simple. My job involves a ton of logistics. People have conflicting needs, timelines have conflicting possibilities, and so on.

Your interpretation of my post is not in-line with what I said, in my opinion. Re-read it. I will even TLDR it for you: We tried one thing and got one result. Now we are trying another thing to see what result comes. The timeline is a bit forced on the other thing due to a number of factors, very much including WCOP.
 
Can we assume that Volc and others whose largest breaking factor is Tera would be quickly revisited should Tera be nerfed/banned? I understand we're supposed to evaluate the metagame now and that's a few steps away, but it's backwards to me to chase a symptom when the cause is acknowledged.

I'm not a tournament player and I get why dealing with broken elements ASAP is so important, but hearing "We're waiting on Tera until after these majors, now hold on while we ban more Pokemon broken by Tera while we finish these majors," is jarring.
on the flip side I am personally putting out the idea of banning volcarona from

-every ou

because volcarona was never a good presence in any tier and has only served to let worse players win against better players, and only now that it has the perfect mechanic to boost it, which literally just lets it do the things it has ALWAYS done just better
 
How are feeling about Sneasler?
It's pretty much Hawlucha but with +10 bp in Sp Def. and a lot of people are running HP evs so it lives every hit.
Terrain + berry + SD is hard to counter if you're running balance
Guess I'll have to go back to running pex, how boring
 

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But that is just what Volc does every gen, even without tera it finds a way to beat its check.
It didn’t as much last generation without Hidden Power. Personally I think it’s broken in ORAS with it and we had to recently ban Gems in BW because of it (alongside other abusers), so yea. I think Volcarona is something that’s arguably needed more suspect attention for a long time.
 
It didn’t as much last generation without Hidden Power. Personally I think it’s broken in ORAS with it and we had to recently ban Gems in BW because of it (alongside other abusers), so yea. I think Volcarona is something that’s arguably needed more suspect attention for a long time.
you say that but I distinctly remember a younger Finchinator saying, and I quote, "ban volc not zama"


Volcarona has in like every single generation been at the edge of being booted it feels like, and I unironically would support a Volcarona ban in any generation of OU lol
 
How are feeling about Sneasler?
It's pretty much Hawlucha but with +10 bp in Sp Def. and a lot of people are running HP evs so it lives every hit.
Terrain + berry + SD is hard to counter if you're running balance
Guess I'll have to go back to running pex, how boring
It is a all or nothing mon, if your rival have a mon that it can't OHKO then is dead, it is also super weak to priority. Needing to SD with that poor bulk is a huge drawback so it needs good positioning and that depends om their coverage. Fighting stab, acro and fire punch looks like the ideal coverage but defensive Gholdengo is still a pain for it.
 

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Don't be passive aggressive (I don't need a TLDR) you contradicted yourself in your own post and I'm clarifying it for you.




WCOP is a tournament, what does "don’t dictate much of our agenda" mean? since you said in the prior sentence that it's logistically factored in?
You realize our agenda and the timeline are totally different things, right??? Our agenda is what we want to do — we want to have another discussion on Tera. Our timeline is when it’s possible to enact our agenda.
 

Finchinator

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I’ve never hidden from the fact that tournaments impact our timelines. Tournaments also are great at showing what’s broken or what’s working in our metagame, so shying away from that would be silly.

We tailor survey timelines and suspects to tournament happenings just like we do ladder. Take the recent survey: I saw an opportunity to get an extra vote in both because of ladder activity and because WCOP was coming so quickly. Tournament timeline absolutely made us act quicker. Is this a bad thing? Absolutely not, I think it’s great we reached a good conclusion in a prompt fashion.

But it works the other way, too. Holding a Tera suspect during WCOP is an impossibility. Our agenda is still to hold that discussion and potentially a suspect, but the timeline is dictated by what’s possible, which sometimes is determined by tournaments.

I have been as transparent as humanly possible about this. Show me another tier leader or person in charge who posts as much as I do. Show me someone else who is as open on policy and proceedings as I am. I don’t know what more you can possibly want, but I’m giving all I have and it’s ridiculous that you assume bad faith.
 
It didn’t as much last generation without Hidden Power. Personally I think it’s broken in ORAS with it and we had to recently ban Gems in BW because of it (alongside other abusers), so yea. I think Volcarona is something that’s arguably needed more suspect attention for a long time.
i’ve been active in all post-bw gens in both building & playing, & volcarona, honestly, has always struck me as a uniquely problematic presence in terms of preparation & playing around. limited checks, many of which it has always had the means to circumvent (albeit not to this insane degree), always far more pressing than its peers to respond to whilst setting up/positioning around giving it opportunities, & far less forgiving in terms of lose-conditions for the non-volc player.

i would 100% support retroactive action on it in bw, oras, sm, & ss.
 
But it works the other way, too. Holding a Tera suspect during WCOP is an impossibility. Our agenda is still to hold that discussion and potentially a suspect, but the timeline is dictated by what’s possible, which sometimes is determined by tournaments.
I think is complicated bc is a gen Gimmick and not a single mon. I mean the council is quickbaning mons right and left rn.
 
KrazyKoopa95

you really, really do not need to go to such lengths as including your own trick room or 0iv -spe pokémon to come out on top against trick room teams.

as with every generation, there will be like one single trick room team that is a niche counter-team pick due to the natural limitations in setters & abusers, so don’t expect it to be a mainstay of the metagame.

the way to defeat these teams is with proactive play & solid, positional midgrounds against their threats whilst trick room is up. with some pokémon, such as g8 marowak-a, life orb melmetal, & now ursaluna, this is easier said than done, to put it mildly - but you must capitalise on the turns where the team is most vulnerable.

tldr: choose your lead & subsequent plays carefully, plan for when & with which pokémon they’re next to set trick room up with & how to punish it as hard as possible, and try to minimise the value they get out of active turns. l2p, basically.
Thanks! I agree with you. I will most likely make a team that just does well vs TR & well vs other playstyles. Leaning towards using Garg with protect & recover just to stall out TR & for maximum Salt Cure chip damage.
 

Finchinator

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I think is complicated bc is a gen Gimmick and not a single mon. I mean the council is quickbaning mons right and left rn.
The council quickbanned two of the most glaringly obvious things — Regieleki and Magearna. We then had a community survey and banned two more things that had record-breaking support (4.6/5 and 4.3/5). Let’s not act like these bans were unwarranted or done without proper etiquette.

Tera absolutely deserves to be discussed and, in my personal opinion, should be acted on. It impacts everything and it defines a lot of things that got banned.
 
I think is complicated bc is a gen Gimmick and not a single mon. I mean the council is quickbaning mons right and left rn.
“generational gimmick” or “generational mechanic” is a totally arbitrary categorisation that, realistically, could be applied to anything that comes with any new generation. it serves no purpose other than to further the (fallacious) idea that tera is worthy of special treatment, rather than being viewed in the same lense as any other element.

basically, it is more a political & rhetorical mechanism than a Real Thing.
 
The council quickbanned two of the most glaringly obvious things — Regieleki and Magearna. We then had a community survey and banned two more things that had record-breaking support (4.6/5 and 4.3/5). Let’s not act like these bans were unwarranted or done without proper etiquette.

Tera absolutely deserves to be discussed and, in my personal opinion, should be acted on. It impacts everything and it defines a lot of things that got banned.
Dont be mad at me Finch. I'm defending you on that. My meaning was that bc is a gen gimmick rn is imposible to suspect Tera rn. CP and ZamaCrown doent got banned before by a technicality.

“generational gimmick” or “generational mechanic” is a totally arbitrary categorisation that, realistically, could be applied to anything that comes with any new generation. it serves no purpose other than to further the (fallacious) idea that tera is worthy of special treatment, rather than being viewed in the same lense as any other element.

basically, it is more a political & rhetorical mechanism than a Real Thing.
I mean Tera define gen 9 like Dinamax define gen 8, Z moves gen 7 and Megas gen 6. Called it whatever you want but still i think does make any diference. Also by doing this I AM NOT DEFENDING TERA. I want that thing ban from day 0.
 
The council quickbanned two of the most glaringly obvious things — Regieleki and Magearna. We then had a community survey and banned two more things that had record-breaking support (4.6/5 and 4.3/5). Let’s not act like these bans were unwarranted or done without proper etiquette.

Tera absolutely deserves to be discussed and, in my personal opinion, should be acted on. It impacts everything and it defines a lot of things that got banned.
There's no shot Mag wouldn't be busted without tera but eleki was only broken because of tera blast. We have 3 options to deal with tera and 2 that don't outright ban the mechanic
 
Not entirely sure there is any “winning” in this scenario.

From the jump, we suspected Tera after a few weeks to give it an authentic chance to see if it’s a mechanic that has a place, how many things people perceive it to break, and so on. That suspect concluded and it wasn’t banned.

Now, we are waiting a month or so to begin discussions, which will likely lead to any action being mid-Summer rather than so quick. Yes, WCOP logistically factored in since it’s the single biggest SV OU event in the entire calendar year, but regardless we already tried the “test ASAP” strategy and now there’s a balancing act prior to any testing.

Tournaments don’t dictate much of our agenda — we had multiple bans and suspects during SPL and OST, for example, which are also huge. Not sure what else is expected from us.
The really early test on Tera was one of the reasons I voted NTA, with the least drastic actions as top picks. With so little time, I hadn't formed a full picture of how Tera felt in a mature metagame. Broken mons like Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao and Espathra caused problems, while less broken threats like Dragonite and Kingambit were interesting in the tier. I generally found that Tera and the broken mons of the format felt one and the same, and most of where Tera felt broken could be handled by suspecting the individual mons, similar to the route Gen 8 NDOU used for Cinderace and Dragapult (Which got broke more there due to Z moves, rather than hit the mechanic as a whole) rather than the SSOU DMAX route (as DMAX broke every single mon, not just a selection). From how the tiering thread looked, I was certain to see the Tera Preview be the winner, but, I was surprised to see the result on no action.

I'm thankful that the council gave it time in the format, and not retesting it so soon, as we've seen some of the more intricate sides to it, while also seeing the more dangerous side of it. As for the next suspect, will have to see after the early bans and tests smooth out the format, but I'm glad its not just back under the spotlight just yet. I'd maybe go for Tera Preview, like VGC, in the next suspect, as I think it could be the best way forward, as unpredictability is the game with Tera, and fine line between some counters and non counters of mons becomes a lot less uncertain.
 
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