Volcorona has had all of its major flaws remedied over the past two generations between boots and Tera. It was not designed with these elements in mind, it makes sense it would become overbearing now. On a side note, I am completely done with Tera and hate it as a mechanic. I just want it gone at this point, I am tired of everything being able to circumvent their nominal checks and counters.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Honestly, Zama H feels manageable rn. Compared to everything else quickbanned it feels nowhere near as problematic. Fat teams are not complete garbo rn and they stuff the BP set well enough. Even playing HO, Zamazenta Hero is not nearly as overbearing as its crowned counterpart. Toxic spikes are super nice into it, Glowking pivoting is super nice into it.
I’ll stress this isn’t saying Zama H is not broken. I just think right now it’s fine. Think of it around where Kingambit was prior to HOME. A solid, top tier mon. It’s just not completely broken imo. Id prefer if any action were taken, we would look at Tera first. I don’t think anything, even Sneasler as haxy as it is, needs a quickban rn. The tier is in a stable enough spot where I feel we can have suspects.
I also staunchly disagree with the notion that anything left on the radar is as big a concern as Tera is. Mons like Urshifu, Ursaluna, Zamazenta, or Sneasler are dumb, but Tera has been this elephant in the room since it’s razor thin first suspect. I personally think the mechanic should be preserved in some way shape or form, but id vastly prefer we act on Tera before quickbanning anything else for now.
I’ll stress this isn’t saying Zama H is not broken. I just think right now it’s fine. Think of it around where Kingambit was prior to HOME. A solid, top tier mon. It’s just not completely broken imo. Id prefer if any action were taken, we would look at Tera first. I don’t think anything, even Sneasler as haxy as it is, needs a quickban rn. The tier is in a stable enough spot where I feel we can have suspects.
I also staunchly disagree with the notion that anything left on the radar is as big a concern as Tera is. Mons like Urshifu, Ursaluna, Zamazenta, or Sneasler are dumb, but Tera has been this elephant in the room since it’s razor thin first suspect. I personally think the mechanic should be preserved in some way shape or form, but id vastly prefer we act on Tera before quickbanning anything else for now.
Oh, this was in reference to me. I'm probably not skilled enough to account for all possible opposing Tera my opponents could run, which is why I've lost a lot pre-Home and I hate team building/get countered in actual play in practice.
This is what I meant by the skill gap is increasing.
Gen 9 must be hell for really casual players who chill around 1200-1500.
I only take 2 days off a week, sometimes 3 or 4, and when I come back half my teams are basically unviable thanks to a new tera tech.
Slight hyperbole, but not really.
Can you imagine someone who play a few games a week trying to build and play around Tera?
This is lowkey where my heart has been with a lot of tera rants. I'll tilt a little, drop down to 1750, and load up against a 1650 and it's just not even fair.
It doesn't feel fair nor fun for either of us.
They have no idea when/how I'm going to tear them apart with my tera of choice.
Anyway, just putting this out there. I feel this players pain.
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Yeah, I think at that point it's a bit telling but a choice will have to be made after WCOP. The community has tried at the very least to conserve that mechanic but it's at the expense of so many mons getting banned because of it. Outside of Volc there a few mons that could be deemed problematic due to that mechanic
Hmm, how do I put this?
I'm writing this with the knowledge that tiering decisions aren't made with casual player wishes in mind (after all, if they were, we would still have had Dynamax), but there's this like, implication when these discussions are brought up about Tera by the anti-Tera side that the only reason people like it is because it's fun and that only casual players like the mechanic.
And while I'm sure those people exist, I do not think thats entirely true. Wouldn't the same grievances that plague more experienced players affect the casual base even more? Unpredictability, Teambuilder strain, etc. affects casual players as well! After all, your average OU low ladder player certainly doesn't enjoy getting hard walled by Water Tera Garg or swept by Grass Volcarona (this is my pre Home experience) any more than a competitive player, and they certainly don't enjoy getting loss after loss in a row to unexpected Tera flavor of the day, and all it takes is a player with decent knowledge of the Meta/Tera trends to seriously ruin a casual player's enjoyment of the tier.
It hasn't happened recently, but I remember back during the pre-suspect and Suspect test thread days this was an argument being used a lot to dismiss someone and it still never really sat well with me. Again, casual players probably don't have any clout here, but the vast majority of people that play matches in the tier aren't here to ladder, they're just here to have fun with a set of rules they like and we're also subject to the pros and cons of the mechanic.
(Sorry for bringing up this discussion again I was backreading and I wanted to catch up. This isn't really a pro-Tera or anti-Tera post just me vomiting words all around/my feelings about the tier).
I'm writing this with the knowledge that tiering decisions aren't made with casual player wishes in mind (after all, if they were, we would still have had Dynamax), but there's this like, implication when these discussions are brought up about Tera by the anti-Tera side that the only reason people like it is because it's fun and that only casual players like the mechanic.
And while I'm sure those people exist, I do not think thats entirely true. Wouldn't the same grievances that plague more experienced players affect the casual base even more? Unpredictability, Teambuilder strain, etc. affects casual players as well! After all, your average OU low ladder player certainly doesn't enjoy getting hard walled by Water Tera Garg or swept by Grass Volcarona (this is my pre Home experience) any more than a competitive player, and they certainly don't enjoy getting loss after loss in a row to unexpected Tera flavor of the day, and all it takes is a player with decent knowledge of the Meta/Tera trends to seriously ruin a casual player's enjoyment of the tier.
It hasn't happened recently, but I remember back during the pre-suspect and Suspect test thread days this was an argument being used a lot to dismiss someone and it still never really sat well with me. Again, casual players probably don't have any clout here, but the vast majority of people that play matches in the tier aren't here to ladder, they're just here to have fun with a set of rules they like and we're also subject to the pros and cons of the mechanic.
(Sorry for bringing up this discussion again I was backreading and I wanted to catch up. This isn't really a pro-Tera or anti-Tera post just me vomiting words all around/my feelings about the tier).
Seconding this. As someone who only occasionally plays OU (typically play monotype and some other vaguely smogon related formats) and hovers around 1300 I find that I lose mainly because my team didn’t account for X mon having Y Tera type (and sometimes, X mon in general lol there’s so much to prep for) and I didn’t react to the unexpected threat well enough.
Banning Tera Blast is so lame and dodging around the real issues. Some of the most broken Tera users don't use the move, and it's deadass just the Dire Claw Rage Fist argument. Stop being bitch ass and beating around the bush to try and save your precious Tera. Get the bullshit out!
Hi again, over the last couple of hours I've been in OU Council attempting to detail my full thoughts on Volcarona in this generation. Since it is already formatted pretty neatly for a Smogon post, I thought I would copy paste what I said into this thread (some of the paragraph breaks may look a bit awkward because Discord messages have a 2000 character limit).
stresh — Today at 16:55
general thoughts on volc in the last 7 months that still mostly apply post-home:
Something that popped up late in that meta which was usually much better suited than Tera Ground Volc was Tera Rock. You could essentially run the same set I mentioned earlier (QD Flame Tera Blast recovery) and achieve a hybrid of the best matchups of Tera Fairy and Tera Ground, killing Bax, owning CB Dnite in a lot of situations, and still wiping Fires and Tera Fires off the face of the earth. If that set had existed a few months earlier it would have had many more drawbacks in relation to Tera Ground, as Clodsire still existed, and Pex still ran Toxic. I'm not sure how likely it is that we'll consistently have enough of the "answers" to Volc accessible at the same time - I'm pretty convinced at this point that there's always going to be at least one very strong Volc set, probably multiple at most points in the meta. In this sense, I dont think meta adaptation will be enough to save the mon. That being said, there have been some constants within the meta that make Volc's life harder than the first few paragraphs would suggest. Firstly, prio mons and generally bulky mons have been everywhere for most of the gen. One of the things that has made certain teras awkward to click is the sequence of blowing your tera too early to take a kill -> getting revenged/forced out -> being stuck with an awkward type on a not particularly bulky mon, saddling you with a weird disadvantage as your tera is already gone. This can be avoided to an extent if you make sure to run the most practical sets at the time (i.e. ones best into bulky offense/offense with prio), but it's always a concern like with any early tera. General specially bulky mons like Ting-Lu and some variants of Gking can provide stop-gap switchins which, although they may technically lose on their own, are often able to delay volc sweeps until it's no longer feasible to pull off. Another thing that comes up a lot for me when using Volc is how flimsy its defensive utility really is.
The main defensive draw of Volcarona is being able to come in on Valiant/Ghold/sometimes Gambit or Zamazenta. Unfortunately, whenever you try to actually make the plays to act as a check to these things throughout the game, you open yourself up to various things going wrong. Booster Energy Valiant can break through regular Volc with both Cm and SD variants, often forcing you into the trade earlier than you actually wanted to make it. Gambit is a pretty risky thing to even try switching in on, but I have seen cases of people trying (Yelodash vs MrBanana from wcop quals comes to mind). Zamazenta can pretty easily run Stone Edge which is another thing that gets in the way of your pre-Tera defensive utility. The combined factors from the last two paragraphs can make Volc really annoying to use as well as really annoying to play against. It generally feels like this mon creates a lot of variance whichever side you're on, which I guess is a point against it being in the meta, even if the chips often land against Volc's favour. I've written a lot here partially because I find it difficult to accurately describe what Volcarona's impact on the meta ends up looking like, and also because there are some aspects that I'm curious about in the post-Home meta compared to the pre-Home meta. For the later stages of the pre-Home meta, you could kinda rely on most teams at least having a Kingambit in terms of prio users, and usually 1-2 extra things that can prevent a Volc sweep. Nowadays with the greater variety, you might find more priority users available, but the combined usage of relevant anti-Volc priority might have gone down. It's hard to know how factors like this shake out early into the metagame. On top of this, we've just had screens go from a pretty irrelevant playstyle pre-Home to one of the main HO styles post-Home, and this can alleviate a lot of Volc's old weaknesses. Even with everything laid out in words, I'm still unsure of what to do with Volc.
The final thing I wanted to mention is the general state of the metagame and how it relates to Volc. There's no doubt in my mind that Volc invites guessing games in a Tera metagame, or that it heavily encourages a lot of prio and anti-setup on your teams, or that it introduces these negative factors into games a lot more regularly than it did in previous generations. Despite this, I find myself looking at the metagame and wondering if this is almost an inevitability. There are definitely some positive skills that can both be associated with dealing with Volcarona AND dealing with the rest of the metagame. For example, the situations I mentioned when it comes to dealing with surprise Volc teras do also apply when it comes to dealing with greedy early teras (with short-term high reward). The general uncertainty around what Tera you're supposed to be playing around can still be found in many other mons, and even though these other mons have less variety in good tera types, when considered collectively this metagame state looks to label an understanding of weighted guesswork and complex risk reward tables as a key skill. Having played this gen at a high level very consistently, I can say that these aspects can definitely be described as skill - I mean this in the sense that there's still a reasonable idea of "generally better choices" and "generally worse choices", and if you repeat the generally better choice over a large portion of games you will get a better winrate. However, I don't think this automatically makes the skillset of the current meta a good one to be rewarding. This is the only meta where "I did the right thing and lost this particular game because of it" is a somewhat regular sentiment that I find upon analyzing my losses - usually what happens in other tiers is either "I did a bad thing in the builder or game and got punished" or "I did the right thing and the RNG didn't pan out". I'm unsure of how to handle a generation like this tiering-wise. Do you
a) Aim to reduce the most egregious offenders for these negative aspects for the meta and leave the rest be
b) Aim to remove the source of bad interactions in the first place so that they can be replaced with more reliable forms of skill expression
c) Try and let the dumb aspects of the generation harmonise with each other so that there is still a clear general trend of what skill looks like in the metagame, while accepting that it's not an ideal form of skill expression (i.e. "it's the charm of the gen" argument)
Personally I'm more in favour of b), and I think that this means ban tera. But it's not like a) and c) are unheard of strategies. Based on my limited experience of Gen 7 i'd say a) and c) describe most of Gen 7's tiering, whereas Gen 8 kinda avoided this conundrum by being a gen where the most broken things were broken mons (that subsequently got banned) and Dynamax which got banned very early.
(In reply to a statement by njnp about tera)
it's kinda like RNG management except RNG management is fixed and calculable
and tera guessing has way more vibes
I was very close to Tera darking in my endgame vs lusa's bax
cause like to me it'd be the logical choice to at least have eq
and then a fairly reasonable choice to be Tera Ground if it was eq
but as it happens it was the fucking no coverage for steels set that some people liked for some reason
If I had tera dark kowtow'd and been hit with Tera Dragon glaive (as he clicked in the game) i would have lost my mind
I essentially lucked into the right play there and it's not even really my fault that it went down that way
and that's like a relatively simple 2v2 endgame (at least when it comes to identifying the possibilities)
stresh — Today at 16:55
general thoughts on volc in the last 7 months that still mostly apply post-home:
- imo the big difference that has been caused by a variety of factors in this gen is that the practicality of volc sets has increased massively. The way I've seen it for a while is that you can basically always run morning sun + boots on volc and still pick and choose your counters in this gen. I think you pretty much cannot go wrong with QD/Flame/Morning Sun/Tera Blast with whatever tera type hits a few of the mons that can try to kill you back.
- My policy throughout pre-home was usually one check for Tera Blast Fairy and Will-o-Wisp with a secondary that prevents losing to Tera Ground (this can be a generally bulky mon not weak to Fire/Ground or some prio combination). Ftr I hated having to do this and I'm not sure I would have put up with it if it wasnt for the fact that some of the checks were just really good in general (like Dnite and the fires), combined with the fact that the meta was just annoying in many ways related to not having much choice in mons.
Something that popped up late in that meta which was usually much better suited than Tera Ground Volc was Tera Rock. You could essentially run the same set I mentioned earlier (QD Flame Tera Blast recovery) and achieve a hybrid of the best matchups of Tera Fairy and Tera Ground, killing Bax, owning CB Dnite in a lot of situations, and still wiping Fires and Tera Fires off the face of the earth. If that set had existed a few months earlier it would have had many more drawbacks in relation to Tera Ground, as Clodsire still existed, and Pex still ran Toxic. I'm not sure how likely it is that we'll consistently have enough of the "answers" to Volc accessible at the same time - I'm pretty convinced at this point that there's always going to be at least one very strong Volc set, probably multiple at most points in the meta. In this sense, I dont think meta adaptation will be enough to save the mon. That being said, there have been some constants within the meta that make Volc's life harder than the first few paragraphs would suggest. Firstly, prio mons and generally bulky mons have been everywhere for most of the gen. One of the things that has made certain teras awkward to click is the sequence of blowing your tera too early to take a kill -> getting revenged/forced out -> being stuck with an awkward type on a not particularly bulky mon, saddling you with a weird disadvantage as your tera is already gone. This can be avoided to an extent if you make sure to run the most practical sets at the time (i.e. ones best into bulky offense/offense with prio), but it's always a concern like with any early tera. General specially bulky mons like Ting-Lu and some variants of Gking can provide stop-gap switchins which, although they may technically lose on their own, are often able to delay volc sweeps until it's no longer feasible to pull off. Another thing that comes up a lot for me when using Volc is how flimsy its defensive utility really is.
The main defensive draw of Volcarona is being able to come in on Valiant/Ghold/sometimes Gambit or Zamazenta. Unfortunately, whenever you try to actually make the plays to act as a check to these things throughout the game, you open yourself up to various things going wrong. Booster Energy Valiant can break through regular Volc with both Cm and SD variants, often forcing you into the trade earlier than you actually wanted to make it. Gambit is a pretty risky thing to even try switching in on, but I have seen cases of people trying (Yelodash vs MrBanana from wcop quals comes to mind). Zamazenta can pretty easily run Stone Edge which is another thing that gets in the way of your pre-Tera defensive utility. The combined factors from the last two paragraphs can make Volc really annoying to use as well as really annoying to play against. It generally feels like this mon creates a lot of variance whichever side you're on, which I guess is a point against it being in the meta, even if the chips often land against Volc's favour. I've written a lot here partially because I find it difficult to accurately describe what Volcarona's impact on the meta ends up looking like, and also because there are some aspects that I'm curious about in the post-Home meta compared to the pre-Home meta. For the later stages of the pre-Home meta, you could kinda rely on most teams at least having a Kingambit in terms of prio users, and usually 1-2 extra things that can prevent a Volc sweep. Nowadays with the greater variety, you might find more priority users available, but the combined usage of relevant anti-Volc priority might have gone down. It's hard to know how factors like this shake out early into the metagame. On top of this, we've just had screens go from a pretty irrelevant playstyle pre-Home to one of the main HO styles post-Home, and this can alleviate a lot of Volc's old weaknesses. Even with everything laid out in words, I'm still unsure of what to do with Volc.
The final thing I wanted to mention is the general state of the metagame and how it relates to Volc. There's no doubt in my mind that Volc invites guessing games in a Tera metagame, or that it heavily encourages a lot of prio and anti-setup on your teams, or that it introduces these negative factors into games a lot more regularly than it did in previous generations. Despite this, I find myself looking at the metagame and wondering if this is almost an inevitability. There are definitely some positive skills that can both be associated with dealing with Volcarona AND dealing with the rest of the metagame. For example, the situations I mentioned when it comes to dealing with surprise Volc teras do also apply when it comes to dealing with greedy early teras (with short-term high reward). The general uncertainty around what Tera you're supposed to be playing around can still be found in many other mons, and even though these other mons have less variety in good tera types, when considered collectively this metagame state looks to label an understanding of weighted guesswork and complex risk reward tables as a key skill. Having played this gen at a high level very consistently, I can say that these aspects can definitely be described as skill - I mean this in the sense that there's still a reasonable idea of "generally better choices" and "generally worse choices", and if you repeat the generally better choice over a large portion of games you will get a better winrate. However, I don't think this automatically makes the skillset of the current meta a good one to be rewarding. This is the only meta where "I did the right thing and lost this particular game because of it" is a somewhat regular sentiment that I find upon analyzing my losses - usually what happens in other tiers is either "I did a bad thing in the builder or game and got punished" or "I did the right thing and the RNG didn't pan out". I'm unsure of how to handle a generation like this tiering-wise. Do you
a) Aim to reduce the most egregious offenders for these negative aspects for the meta and leave the rest be
b) Aim to remove the source of bad interactions in the first place so that they can be replaced with more reliable forms of skill expression
c) Try and let the dumb aspects of the generation harmonise with each other so that there is still a clear general trend of what skill looks like in the metagame, while accepting that it's not an ideal form of skill expression (i.e. "it's the charm of the gen" argument)
Personally I'm more in favour of b), and I think that this means ban tera. But it's not like a) and c) are unheard of strategies. Based on my limited experience of Gen 7 i'd say a) and c) describe most of Gen 7's tiering, whereas Gen 8 kinda avoided this conundrum by being a gen where the most broken things were broken mons (that subsequently got banned) and Dynamax which got banned very early.
(In reply to a statement by njnp about tera)
it's kinda like RNG management except RNG management is fixed and calculable
and tera guessing has way more vibes
I was very close to Tera darking in my endgame vs lusa's bax
cause like to me it'd be the logical choice to at least have eq
and then a fairly reasonable choice to be Tera Ground if it was eq
but as it happens it was the fucking no coverage for steels set that some people liked for some reason
If I had tera dark kowtow'd and been hit with Tera Dragon glaive (as he clicked in the game) i would have lost my mind
I essentially lucked into the right play there and it's not even really my fault that it went down that way
and that's like a relatively simple 2v2 endgame (at least when it comes to identifying the possibilities)
Exploring the Terastillization Argument: Examining Both Sides
The concept of Terastillization has sparked a heated debate among Pokémon enthusiasts. While there are valid arguments on both sides, it is essential to critically evaluate the evidence and reasoning presented. This essay aims to provide an objective analysis of the Terastillization argument, acknowledging the points made by proponents while highlighting the need for further clarification and substantiation of their claims.
I. Pro-Terastillization Arguments:
To reach a consensus on Terastillization, further research, deliberation, and testing are necessary. The development of well-defined mechanics, implementation guidelines, and thorough analysis of its impact on the metagame's integrity are crucial steps forward.
Ultimately, a comprehensive understanding of Terastillization and its implications will require a collaborative effort from the Pokémon community, game developers, and competitive players to ensure that any potential changes enhance the strategic depth, balance, and competitive integrity of the Pokémon experience.
P.S we need to have a seperate discussion board I wanna disucss Garticuno in peace here lmfao
The concept of Terastillization has sparked a heated debate among Pokémon enthusiasts. While there are valid arguments on both sides, it is essential to critically evaluate the evidence and reasoning presented. This essay aims to provide an objective analysis of the Terastillization argument, acknowledging the points made by proponents while highlighting the need for further clarification and substantiation of their claims.
I. Pro-Terastillization Arguments:
- Expanded Versatility: Supporters argue that Terastillization enhances the versatility of Pokémon by allowing them to change their typing. This flexibility potentially opens up new strategies and counterplay options within battles.
- Increased Viability: Proponents contend that Terastillization can potentially improve the viability of certain Pokémon by granting them access to different types, expanding their move pool, and enabling them to handle specific threats more effectively.
- Creative Team Building: The introduction of Terastillization could encourage more diverse team compositions and creative approaches to battles. This can lead to greater innovation and strategical depth within the Pokémon metagame.
- Fostering Adaptability: Advocates suggest that Terastillization promotes adaptability and encourages players to think on their feet. It introduces an additional layer of unpredictability and decision-making during battles, making the gameplay experience more dynamic and exciting.
- Impact on Balance: Detractors argue that Terastillization could potentially disrupt the delicate balance within the metagame. The ability to switch typings may result in certain Pokémon becoming overly dominant or create unforeseen power imbalances that negatively impact the competitive environment.
- Strategic Depth vs. Randomness: Some opponents question whether Terastillization truly adds strategic depth or merely introduces an element of randomness to battles. The ability to unpredictably change typings might diminish the importance of careful planning and prediction, potentially reducing the skill-based aspect of competitive play.
- Competitive Integrity: Critics express concerns about the potential impact of Terastillization on the integrity of competitive Pokémon battles. Without well-defined rules and limitations, it becomes challenging to maintain a fair and balanced competitive environment where skill and strategy prevail over arbitrary factors.
To reach a consensus on Terastillization, further research, deliberation, and testing are necessary. The development of well-defined mechanics, implementation guidelines, and thorough analysis of its impact on the metagame's integrity are crucial steps forward.
Ultimately, a comprehensive understanding of Terastillization and its implications will require a collaborative effort from the Pokémon community, game developers, and competitive players to ensure that any potential changes enhance the strategic depth, balance, and competitive integrity of the Pokémon experience.
P.S we need to have a seperate discussion board I wanna disucss Garticuno in peace here lmfao
What tera does to a mf... Garticuno was PU last gen and only bc tera help him cheese to get boost is "viable" in OU lmao
Also on the Tera discusion, we better stop talking about that bc no action until WCuP ends so....
this is definitely fair (I am pro tera)
though I think the stereotype comes from the old surveys where the less qualified playerbase iirc was approving Tera more, and people tend to conflate lower elo/no tournament result to casual
I really appreciate the feedback from casual players who aren't ashamed to say tera changes the game in such a fundamental way that they feel helpless.
I've never been a fan of the "it's fun" talking point as it's so subjective and really doesn't hold any weight.
In a past few of my tera posts I've literally said casuals are suffering the most and that I had y'all in mind.
I don't want to dig up my long post rn but I don't see how we can really test tera w/o a separate ladder.
How can ppl vote for something without knowing what they're voting for..
The "separate ladder" idea happen when dinamax got nuked but never approve bc they didn't want to separate the player base. So don't think that is going to happen
It would just be for testing/suspect purposes.
It makes no logical sense to have a tera vote without putting up a suspect ladder.
This isn't a mon suspect where you can kinda visualize what a meta would look like.
Tera is a weird problem that requires a novel approach.
The same word you are using were use when Dynaban happen so good luck
Every single thing in the last three pages was posted twenty times eight months ago in the Tera thread and I don't think a single opinion changed. Finch said there's gonna be a Tera examination in the future so can we just shut the fuck up about it
Oh, I know Finch said there was gonna be action later.
Sorry... I didn't know we weren't supposed to talk about it anymore. I'll be more careful in the future.
Have to agree with the person. Can we move on from this Tera discussion crap. Sounding like whining little babies who wants Tera to be banned so that Gen 9 meta can be boring like Gen 8 meta and don't tell me oh roost, stall, recover is nerf with no scald and less knock off. Don't want to hear that bs reason. Yeah remember Gen 8 meta, the most boring meta ever and I hated Dmax. Never liked that mechanic like Z-moves as well. Only meta that was actually fun is Gen 3,4,6, and now 9. Now a Tera Preview is what I'm okay with which should have been from the beginning like VGC is doingif I'm being honest. Now what Hisuian mons are you guys enjoying so far?
Sorry if I came across as super aggressive! Honestly you are doin fine I'm just sick of seeing the same three names make the same two talking points for the better part of a year
To move on, how have people been finding Tornadus-T? I have seen very little hype this Gen especially after it was extremely good last generation.
We should make a Tornadus-T set tier list 
I'll just post a wrong/random one and then you can fix it little by little
S
Boots NP+3 Attacks
Specs
AV
A
Bulky Double Dance (Agility + Nasty Plot)
Bulk Up Tera flying Sitrus Berry Acrobatics
Physical Double Dance (BU + Agility)
Standard Boots Pivot (can have taunt)
B
Choice Band
I'll just post a wrong/random one and then you can fix it little by little
S
Boots NP+3 Attacks
Specs
AV
A
Bulky Double Dance (Agility + Nasty Plot)
Bulk Up Tera flying Sitrus Berry Acrobatics
Physical Double Dance (BU + Agility)
Standard Boots Pivot (can have taunt)
B
Choice Band
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- Status