Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[fish anemometer]

Love the set, but why Hurricane over Bleakwind Storm? Is the 10 bp really better then 10% accuracy?

From my experience hurricane is cool cause if you get a hurricane confusion your opponent straight up can just forfeit on the spot, meanwhile if you miss, regenerator can still bail you out a bit. Some misses do suck though and to be real with you I just havent tried bleakwind at all besides in randbats where it always disappoints (yes i know that isnt relevant to ou at all).

 

[Ctann]

Volcarona:

Its “best” set needs both water/ground type and Terablast to be used. If it can’t pull off its standard gameplay, falls on its face. Decent resistance profile but needs to pick bulky or offensive, if spread is revealed, much easier to play around. Show up or blow up kinda playstyle.

kingambit (pre-home)

regardless of whether it uses Tera fairy/flying/dark/fighting/fire, has an amazing set, doesn’t even care if it carries Terablast or not, great resistance profile only needs 1 coverage move to function. Could literally choose anything between 252 speed or 0 speed and only worry about other kingambit in the end game. Functional in every match up, show up and show up late as fuck if you want to kinda playstyle.

—

Thoughts on the comparison ?

 

[1LDK]

Definitely my favorite torn set, inspired by an old SS OU ben gay team. I found other sets to be outcompeted by or way too mu fishing for my liking. This set fixed a lot of its issues imo and while not a super S-tier it's quite threatening. Looking at its moves, you will lose some games missing any one of the moves, but you will also win some by surprising your opponent with the big hits! When it works it's addicting! Regenerator mitigates the need for boots enough to make the set viable. This guy has a little trouble vs screens HO and TR but there are some phenomenal mus into balance/bulky offense, against stall it's not the best progress maker, however because the double switch on is super free the longevity it has is kinda insane. Rain is also a great mu as hurricane gains 100% accuracy and ohkoes standard defensive and tera water can troll it further. Though tera is really flexible on this mon and is mostly just to patch up weaknesses in your team. Cheers y'all thanks for reading if you have!

Uh, chief, I think you should see this on dark mode smogon

Anyway, my 2 cents on the volc debate is that it's alright, I don't feel strong about volc, it has 90000000 variations of the same fucking set, fuck, I can load up tera normal hyper beam volc and will probably work, and the bulky sets are just annoying

with that being said, I think It's just fine, I have cheese out, and I have been cheesed out, and while it doesn't have an overlapping counter, this is just like gen 7 Mega Mawile where you kinda just have to counter in tandem, I know role compression and utility is fucking dire (fuck Corviknight) but the meta is still in an "ooohh shiny" phase and Volc has shown time and time again that he can be a cruel sweeper, and flame body activating makes you wanna shoot yourself with a fucking rocket launcher

TLRD: I don't care tbh

 

[tigers jaw]

Volcarona:

Its “best” set needs both water/ground type and Terablast to be used. If it can’t pull off its standard gameplay, falls on its face. Decent resistance profile but needs to pick bulky or offensive, if spread is revealed, much easier to play around. Show up or blow up kinda playstyle.

kingambit (pre-home)

regardless of whether it uses Tera fairy/flying/dark/fighting/fire, has an amazing set, doesn’t even care if it carries Terablast or not, great resistance profile only needs 1 coverage move to function. Could literally choose anything between 252 speed or 0 speed and only worry about other kingambit in the end game. Functional in every match up, show up and show up late as fuck if you want to kinda playstyle.

—

Thoughts on the comparison ?

Gambit was for sure something I was foreseeing a suspect for pre-Home, and if/when Urshifu is banned, should it regain a similar level of dominance, I would expect the same down the line, honestly.

It is just too good at what it does, with too few checks, and SO is a total bullshit ability.

As far as the comparison goes, I think they’re quite dissimilar. Gambit provided way more defensive utility & was a slow burn most of the time, whereas, as you say, Volcarona is a lot more volatile & immediate in its potential victory.

 

[Ctann]

Gambit was for sure something I was foreseeing a suspect for pre-Home, and if/when Urshifu is banned, should it regain a similar level of dominance, I would expect the same down the line, honestly.

It is just too good at what it does, with too few checks, and SO is a total bullshit ability.

As far as the comparison goes, I think they’re quite dissimilar. Gambit provided way more defensive utility & was a slow burn most of the time, whereas, as you say, Volcarona is a lot more volatile & immediate in its potential victory.

noted, thanks for the reply

and suspect sounds more fair than a quick ban, right?

On consistency of policy

the “this time it’s different” kinda thinking is contrary to the “smogon sticks to consistent policy”

 

[tigers jaw]

noted, thanks for the reply

and suspect sounds more fair than a quick ban, right?

With regards to Volcarona or Gambit? Regardless, the answer is yes.

edit: hmm actually, if we’re talking Volcarona, as long as Tera remains, it will have an infinite capacity to outpace the predator-prey cycle of the metagames’ means of handling it, so I wouldn’t be too opposed to a QB. I’m open to a suspect l, though I believe it would be a foregone conclusion.

 

[Exotic64]

a tera suspect test is fine but imo tera is fine as it is now
If you play enough games you can know how to play around tera and with it, i get the arguments on the ban side but tbh all of them can be circumvented just from playing more unironically
Tera was most op during chiyu/bundle and recently with the zamas and pao (dark pao kills everything and zama c becomes a monster if it turns flying/ghost)
But honestly from playing a lot of ladder games 1900+ post pao/zama ban there’s been a lot of teams that are almost mirrors because of the approach people are going for after the brokens banned;
It’s a lot of ceaseless edge spikestack with dengo, and what I’m trying to get across here is with so many popular mons u kinda just have to be prepared for the tera and that comes with experience ig. Ofc Theres stuff like volc and shifu and Garg who are heavy tera abusers but mostly if you play the game enough you should be experienced enough to realise volc is only running tera ground/water for heatran recently and you can be prepared for that for sure + bait the tera etc. which is very good
Garg is a harder one since it’s mostly only water/fairy but with the amount of gholdengos around rn garg is looking just annoying
Is tera broken? Probably lol. Banworthy? Probably not, but that can be determined with a suspect so we can gauge the opinions of actual good players.

 

[Narmy]

Same as lolgod3 on the reason of hidden power being strong as universal coverage (not like now exist a stronger version that can be also physical and you gain STAB on it) but pursuit was for progaming problems - i hear back in gen 8 that Pursuit give bugs when interacting with Dynamax so they nuked that -

Wow common gamefreak L
And sure HP is strong coverage but i thought it was pretty balanced since physical attackers don't benefit too much from it and you don't get stab from the type you're trying to counter with it (except in the rare occasion of like HPF Gyara ig? Idk any good example for this)

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

Seen a few of fast, offensive Zapdos EV spreads around the forum, so I just wanted to share a couple slower, fatter spreads if anyone cares.

Physical Defense:
248 HP / 228+ Def - 32 free

This spread survives an Adamant Facade or Stone Edge from Ursaluna, but can't really stand up to most of the premier physical attackers like Kingambit and Urshifu after a SD. However, it can take hits well from everything other than the biggest and baddest hitters in the tier and really excels at punishing U-Turn with Static.

The final 32 EVs are up to you, the most notable speed tier you can hit is 240 (16 EVs) which outspeeds Adamant Breloom and Modest Volcanion or you can go one notch higher to outspeed Magnezone and H-Goodra. 16 SpD is enough to survive a +2 Flamethrower from Timid Volcarona, beyond that I couldn't find much else relevant so going full 252 Def can't hurt.


Special Defense:
248 HP / 200+ SpD - 60 free

This spread survives back-to-back Draco Meteors from Specs Dragapult. 60 EVs seems like a good amount to play with, but I honestly couldn't find too much notable offensively other than having decent odds to OHKO Urshifu and uninvested Samurott with Volt Switch after rocks with 60 SpA EVs. For the defensive side, really anything works, I couldn't find any big breaking points for OHKOs or 2HKOs from additional investment into either stat.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

The thing with volc is although it is matchup dependant, it does currently have losing matchups and some pokemon do still counter volc either scouting its tera and responding with their own tera, or volc didn't choose the right tera when teambuilding and ultimately is dead weight, a hinderance to have infact.

Tera helps volc overcome its problems, but the fact it has these problems at all shows that it is still a flawed mon, otherwise it'd limit itself to only a few sets, however volc instead is pressuring to run one of many sets of varying coverage to remain relevant in the tier. Part of that unpredictability comes from this nature in that there is no usual volcarona set, if there was it'd be very easy to predict what it does, but the fact it can't stick to one set and will lose majority of games one tricking that set for a whole climb is testament to how this isn't a strength of volc, its a weakness the user must play around that feels like a strength to the unknowing opponent.

This does not make volc stand out among other tera users, as roaring moon, dragonite, and even iron valiant can pull this stunt off, the difference is they have good usual sets that make them cover enough of the tier with the kit you choose instead of having to adjust the kit around specific targets currently in the tier to deal with.

This begs the question if volc is actually broken or just a product of tera's unpredictability cause you can pick any volcarona set and there's a large portion of the metagame that will counter that set except some very specific pokemon it targetted the set around. Similarly if you told me skeledirge checked iron valiant, whats stopping iron valiant from tera dark - nuking the skeledirge from either the physical or special side? Its simply only not likely to happen off the concept that valiant can sacrifice being weak to skeledirge and let something else handle it cause it tears everything else to shreds on its own. Volc needs a team built around it to be a wincon, mons like valiant are the team with very few weaknesses that 1 or 2 members can help it overcome, this is what frustrates me because volc has this perception 'because it can be its broken but its so what if its not.'

The common problem is tera, its concept in general is what creates those cheesy moments or meta adaptations that flip the checks/counter options. It takes a lot of gutting the tier to make tera seem... more fair but not completely fair. Tera needs to go, we all know its going to get tested at some point regardless of the result idk why we haven't ripped the bandaid off and done it yet. What's happening now is exactly what we feared the 'no ban' would result to; banning mons until we're so knee deep we have to unban them all or we're as far as nearing the next gen when we decide to act.

 

[Vall]

The common problem is tera, its concept in general is what creates those cheesy moments or meta adaptations that flip the checks/counter options. It takes a lot of gutting the tier to make tera seem... more fair but not completely fair. Tera needs to go, we all know its going to get tested at some point regardless of the result idk why we haven't ripped the bandaid off and done it yet. What's happening now is exactly what we feared the 'no ban' would result to; banning mons until we're so knee deep we have to unban them all or we're as far as nearing the next gen when we decide to act.

As someone who really enjoyed messing with Eleki in gen 8, I really don't think we're "knee deep." Tera has cost us Espathra, Eleki, probably Volc... Maybe annihilape (Rage fist would still 6-0 stall).

The thing is... that's about it. Volcarona's been contentious for months, We knew almost certainly Eleki would be broken from the jump, and Espathra and Ape didn't take too long to be discovered. These mons all have distinct traits that caused Tera to break them. We have:

1. Eleki, a mon balanced ENTIRELY by a lack of Coverage, who gained coverage
2. Espathra, a mon with the unique combo of speed boost + stored power
3. Annihlape, the only mon in the game with rage fist, who is maybe banworthy without Tera
4. Volcarona, the matchup moth

I seriously doubt there will suddenly be any new mons discovered that become broken solely due to tera. From existing examples, it seems to require specific traits that would've been discovered by now.

Generally on a game-by-game basis, I agree with what a lot of people are saying about Tera placing value on a different skillset. That area of adaptability is something I enjoy, but I understand that people don't

 

[idiotclips]

IMO, I feel like tera should be restricted on certain Pokemon, much like draft leagues, because I don’t believe tera is broken on it’s own, but obviously on stuff like volc and dragonite it’s broken, it’s also one of the main reasons for annihilapes ban.

adding a limitation on certain Pokémon it’s clearly broken on is something that the player base can vote upon themselves and I feel like tera can become more balanced because of it

I still don’t believe tera as a whole is broken, I believe it adds a lot of diversity into the metagame if it is used well, the problem arises if Pokemon use it too well

I believe volcarona is the main culprit in this and therefore it should be considered for the first tera ban on a Pokemon, that way the meta cannot become overwhelmed by tera threats

 

[Avira]

There really aren't "so many mons getting banned because of it."

It was a factor in Annihilape's ban, but he probably would have been banned anyway for being too oppressive versus defensive teams.

It was the major factor in banning Espathra, who would have been an obnoxious matchup fish without it, but not broken.

It was the sole factor in banning Regieleki.

And...that's it. Other banned mons used the mechanic, of course, but it wasn't what pushed them into ban territory. Chi-Yu one shotting Blissey with Tera-Fire in the sun is a cool calc and all, but Chi-Yu in the sun without tera one shots things, too.

Future action candidates that could be banned with tera in the metagame, but fine without, is:

Volcarona. Matchup moth doing matchup moth things, now with a tool to be even less predictable and have even more choices. Might get banned anyway, but clearly less likely.

That's it, that's the list. The collateral damage from the mechanic, in terms of bans, is 2-4 mons.

I contest your claim that the collateral damage from Tera is a ban of 4 mons at most.

Palafin wasn't broken without Tera and actually had answers, both to the CB set and the Taunt Bulk Up set. It was Tera allowing it to get Adaptability Wave Crashes and changing its type to beat slower mons that could typically beat it.

Tera was the ONLY factor, not the major factor, that made Espathra broken. It being able to switch types and gain an extra coverage move was broken. Without Tera it would be a UU or RUBL mon that lacked the coverage and defensive profile to make waves in OU.

Regieleki we know is broken only 'cause of Tera. That's simple enough.

Chien-Pao was also a mon that was broken because of Tera. Without Tera, it isn't almost purely an upgrade over Gen 8 Weavile in every way since Triple Axel outdamaged Chien-Pao's Icicle Crash/Ice Spinner, and Knock Off was an amazing move for making progress. Weavile's better special bulk also made it a better Dragapult check. Chien-Pao would simply be top tier without Tera rather than just outright broken 'cause of Tera.

So that's 4 Pokemon of the Pokemon we've already banned this generation with more to come. Volcarona may or not get banned, but there wouldn't be any discussion on banning it if not for Tera, and it definitely won't be the last mon to be on the radar 'cause of Tera. If the Tapus return, Tapu Lele is pretty much a guaranteed Uber.

 

[Bakugames]

can we ban tera so people can stop talking about it every page. can we fake being centrists about it pls

how has bax going for yall? with pao gone, it has a lot more use, but ive been having issues using it and would love to hear what you guys think its place on the meta is rn :)

 

[Vall]

Chien-Pao was also a mon that was broken because of Tera. Without Tera, it isn't almost purely an upgrade over Gen 8 Weavile in every way since Triple Axel outdamaged Chien-Pao's Icicle Crash/Ice Spinner, and Knock Off was an amazing move for making progress. Weavile's better special bulk also made it a better Dragapult check. Chien-Pao would simply be top tier without Tera rather than just outright broken 'cause of Tera.

Palafin never really got much discussion bc it was QB within a week (Which probably says says something about it, with or without tera)

But Chien-Pao I think I can disagree with.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-sv-ou-suspect-process-round-2-munch.3715256/

There's a lot of discussion of Tera (Largely bc it was immediately after the suspect, but on the first page alone multiple people say that they'd be voting ban regardless of tera. That indicates that the mon is bordeline broken without tera factored in. Even looking as unfavourably as possible, tera was still only the final nail in the coffin

 

[Ctann]

can we ban tera so people can stop talking about it every page. can we fake being centrists about it pls

how has bax going for yall? with pao gone, it has a lot more use, but ive been having issues using it and would love to hear what you guys think its place on the meta is rn :)

the fact that people are energised to talk about it..

But..

“can’t do anything for a few months at least”

it wasn’t brought up in the survey too, at least a “ what’s your thoughts on Tera at this stage of the meta” or similar

so there’s no outlet other than here

literally all the topic is on stuff that have a single common denominator

can you blame us?

using “us” because I realised I’ve posted a bit about the topic haha.

 

[Vall]

how has bax going for yall? with pao gone, it has a lot more use, but ive been having issues using it and would love to hear what you guys think its place on the meta is rn :)

Been using bax even before the Chien-Pao ban because I saw the writing on the wall and didn't want to update my team.
Banded Ice/Dragon Coverage chunks basically everything not named heatran, which Earthquake destroys . Bax is still the only mon with a strong physical dragon stab, and the addition of a bunch of Ground & Flying types really helps it find targets. Still gets outsped a bunch tho.

 

[DaemonChop]

Palafin was ABSOLUTELY broken without Tera. Shit has 150 base ATK and a priority 80BP move it was never gonna and never will be okay. Tera Water Jet Punch just took it from clearly broken to instantly bannable.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

As someone who really enjoyed messing with Eleki in gen 8, I really don't think we're "knee deep." Tera has cost us Espathra, Eleki, probably Volc... Maybe annihilape (Rage fist would still 6-0 stall).

The thing is... that's about it. Volcarona's been contentious for months, We knew almost certainly Eleki would be broken from the jump, and Espathra and Ape didn't take too long to be discovered. These mons all have distinct traits that caused Tera to break them. We have:

1. Eleki, a mon balanced ENTIRELY by a lack of Coverage, who gained coverage
2. Espathra, a mon with the unique combo of speed boost + stored power
3. Annihlape, the only mon in the game with rage fist, who is maybe banworthy without Tera
4. Volcarona, the matchup moth

I seriously doubt there will suddenly be any new mons discovered that become broken solely due to tera. From existing examples, it seems to require specific traits that would've been discovered by now.

Generally on a game-by-game basis, I agree with what a lot of people are saying about Tera placing value on a different skillset. That area of adaptability is something I enjoy, but I understand that people don't

You know this already: Eleki was banned cause it gained coverage, espathra was banned cause of tera fighting to not get stone walled by darks / tera fiery to muscle through some like kingambit with gleam after several boost, ape tera water definitely pushed it to quick ban, volc we have yet to see but is controversal cause volc pretty much *is* the epitome of tera, the mon in itself is what tera is.

Looking at other bans;

Both times, chien-pao was banned for tera reasons. Before it barely got banned mainly due to tera fighting to muscle some would be checks and tera dark to push its STAB crunch even further, now its definitely because tera stab crunch is way too difficult to deal with, without proper dark checks i.e. fairies.

Iron bundle was wall-able, check-able, until it tera'd then the calcs show it muscled past everything when factoring in its quark drive and revenge killing was a liability since even though it's glass it still could resist the hit with a tera if not nuking everything with it.

Palafin may have had more checks without tera water (cant touch dondozo but nowadays if there was more discussion i'm sure tera grass knot may have seen play), the fact it nuked anything that can't sponge a hit is part of why it went.

Flutter mane its hard to say, its physically fraily and would be easy to revenge kill with priority if it didn't do so much damage with tera + possibly defensive tera to avoid revenge killing, its basically a special kartana with piss weak defense and high SpD, only extremespeed doesn't hit it.

Out of all the currently banned uber pokemon that have been in OU,

5/9 were definite bans due to tera or had their bans happen sooner as a result of it

- Annihilape
- Chien-pao
- Regi
- Espathra
- Iron Bundle

3/9 Are debatable bans due to tera

- Chi-yu (might've been same reasoning as chien-pao, must;'ve just been too strong in general)
- Palafin (strong hard hitter, tera might've made it more potent than it really was but more likely it was just that strong)
- Flutter Mane (^)

1/9 isn't debatable it just didn't belong in the tier

- Zama

If you add volc to the mix there's an even higher percentage of mons overtuned by tera, and there's still large debate being overlooked with kingambit, dragonite, and roaring moon that could also be related to their teras.

Other than zama, tera is always part of the discussion on the pokemon we've banned so far, not including anything that flat out never touched the tier at all such as lando-i, spectrier, etc.

 

[MegaScizor32]

can we ban tera so people can stop talking about it every page. can we fake being centrists about it pls

how has bax going for yall? with pao gone, it has a lot more use, but ive been having issues using it and would love to hear what you guys think its place on the meta is rn :)

Because not everyone wants it banned. I feel like the next time it’s suspect tested it will change to Tera Preview.

 

[Alternator]

You know this already: Eleki was banned cause it gained coverage, espathra was banned cause of tera fighting to not get stone walled by darks / tera fiery to muscle through some like kingambit with gleam after several boost, ape tera water definitely pushed it to quick ban, volc we have yet to see but is controversal cause volc pretty much *is* the epitome of tera, the mon in itself is what tera is.

Looking at other bans;

Both times, chien-pao was banned for tera reasons. Before it barely got banned mainly due to tera fighting to muscle some would be checks and tera dark to push its STAB crunch even further, now its definitely because tera stab crunch is way too difficult to deal with, without proper dark checks i.e. fairies.

Iron bundle was wall-able, check-able, until it tera'd then the calcs show it muscled past everything when factoring in its quark drive and revenge killing was a liability since even though it's glass it still could resist the hit with a tera if not nuking everything with it.

Palafin may have had more checks without tera water (cant touch dondozo but nowadays if there was more discussion i'm sure tera grass knot may have seen play), the fact it nuked anything that can't sponge a hit is part of why it went.

Flutter mane its hate to say, its physically fraily and would be easy to revenge kill with priority if it didn't do so much damage with tera + possibly defensive tera to avoid revenge killing, its basically a special kartana with piss weak defense and high SpD, only extremespeed doesn't hit it.

Out of all the currently banned uber pokemon that have been in OU,

5/9 where definite bans due to tera

- Annihilape
- Chien-pao
- Regi
- Espathra
- Iron Bundle

3/9 Are debatable bans due to tera

- Chi-yu (might've been same reasoning as chien-pao, must;'ve just been too strong in general)
- Palafin (strong hard hitter, tera might've made it more potent than it really was but more likely it was just that strong)
- Flutter Mane (^)

1/9 isn't debatable it just didn't belong in the tier

- Zama

If you add volc to the mix there's an even higher percentage of mons overtuned by tera, and there's still large debate being overlooked with kingambit, dragonite, and roaring moon that could also be related to their teras.

Other than zama, tera is always part of the discussion on the pokemon we've banned so far, not including anything that flat out never touched the tier at all such as lando-i, spectrier, etc.

If you want to be taken seriously, claiming that IRON BUNDLE - a mon with 124 SpA,136 Speed, and perfect neutral coverage with his STAB combo, who was also an early quick ban - was banned because of tera is not the way to go.

In fact, here's the ban announcement for Iron Bundle and Palafin:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/palafin-and-iron-bundle-are-banned-from-sv-ou.3711440/

You can look, "tera" is mentioned four times between the two mons, and it's given as something that benefits them, not the cause of being broken.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

If you want to be taken seriously, claiming that IRON BUNDLE - a mon with 124 SpA,136 Speed, and perfect neutral coverage with his STAB combo, who was also an early quick ban - was banned because of tera is not the way to go.

In fact, here's the ban announcement for Iron Bundle and Palafin:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/palafin-and-iron-bundle-are-banned-from-sv-ou.3711440/

You can look, "tera" is mentioned four times between the two mons, and it's given as something that benefits them, not the cause of being broken.

5/9 were definite bans due to tera or had their bans happen sooner as a result of it


- Iron Bundle

I never left out iron bundle was balanced without tera, but it was for sure not that immediate of a quick ban without it.

From that post:

"Alongside shockingly good physical bulk to take on priority and Tera Water at its disposal to stomach priority options like Bullet Punch and Mach Punch"

Should you be the one taken seriously? You're just repeating what i already said lol. I editted that in before you even responded but numerous times i implied it wasn't strictly cause of tera for some of them, everything at some point brought up tera as part of the reasoning.

 

[Vall]

You know this already: Eleki was banned cause it gained coverage, espathra was banned cause of tera fighting to not get stone walled by darks / tera fiery to muscle through some like kingambit with gleam after several boost, ape tera water definitely pushed it to quick ban, volc we have yet to see but is controversal cause volc pretty much *is* the epitome of tera, the mon in itself is what tera is.

Looking at other bans;

Both times, chien-pao was banned for tera reasons. Before it barely got banned mainly due to tera fighting to muscle some would be checks and tera dark to push its STAB crunch even further, now its definitely because tera stab crunch is way too difficult to deal with, without proper dark checks i.e. fairies.

Iron bundle was wall-able, check-able, until it tera'd then the calcs show it muscled past everything when factoring in its quark drive and revenge killing was a liability since even though it's glass it still could resist the hit with a tera if not nuking everything with it.

Palafin may have had more checks without tera water (cant touch dondozo but nowadays if there was more discussion i'm sure tera grass knot may have seen play), the fact it nuked anything that can't sponge a hit is part of why it went.

Flutter mane its hard to say, its physically fraily and would be easy to revenge kill with priority if it didn't do so much damage with tera + possibly defensive tera to avoid revenge killing, its basically a special kartana with piss weak defense and high SpD, only extremespeed doesn't hit it.

Out of all the currently banned uber pokemon that have been in OU,

5/9 were definite bans due to tera or had their bans happen sooner as a result of it

- Annihilape
- Chien-pao
- Regi
- Espathra
- Iron Bundle

3/9 Are debatable bans due to tera

- Chi-yu (might've been same reasoning as chien-pao, must;'ve just been too strong in general)
- Palafin (strong hard hitter, tera might've made it more potent than it really was but more likely it was just that strong)
- Flutter Mane (^)

1/9 isn't debatable it just didn't belong in the tier

- Zama

If you add volc to the mix there's an even higher percentage of mons overtuned by tera, and there's still large debate being overlooked with kingambit, dragonite, and roaring moon that could also be related to their teras.

Other than zama, tera is always part of the discussion on the pokemon we've banned so far, not including anything that flat out never touched the tier at all such as lando-i, spectrier, etc.

??? Then we should ban choice items, bc Bundle, Pao, Chi Yu, Palafin, Regi and Mane all ran choice items!

That is such biased method of thinking.

If you are seriously arguing that Chi-Yu and Flutter Mane have any conceivable place in OU I fundamentally think we can never agree on this. Ever.

"bans sooner as a result" is also a weird attempt to justify Tera's as bad. It acknowledges that the pokemon were ultimately unhealthy regardless of Tera. As I said in another comment, Chien-Pao without tera was reliably wallable by Dodonzo, and maybe, barely coviknight. People wanted it gone regardless.

 

[kosecant]

Palafin was basically Groudon with priority, y’all are smoking something if you think that thing would ever last in OU lmao

 

[RoyalDispenser]

??? Then we should ban choice items, bc Bundle, Pao, Chi Yu, Palafin, Regi and Mane all ran choice items!

That is such biased method of thinking.

No you're twisting it in such an ignorant way of thinking.

Tera does push several mons, majority of the bans were influenced by tera offensively and defensively, its even right fucking there in the iron bundle ban post that defensively speaking tera DID make it more difficult to check, it was part of the reason as well as tera water making it deal more free damage. Is it the only reason? No. Is it broken without it? We don't know we never seen that but it did make the tier unplayable at the time it was around with tera, we can only say 'probably'.

Palafin absolutely could've still been broken regardless, i agree with that, but even in the post:

"This set is even worse with Tera support, as with Tera Steel it can shut down potential counterplay like Sludge Bomb Toxapex or Giga Drain Amoonguss."

Tera is always a factor in banning mons this gen, the more broken by it the sooner they get acted on. Whether its the reason is the debate and for majority of them it certainly was/is going to be.