Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Yeah but do we really want to wait until after the World Cup is over? I rather suspect something (now) thats not tera that's problematic and then wait until the World Cup is done so we can re-suspect Tera.
Removing things that have an important place in the meta but are potentially busted due to being broken tera abusers can end up causing more collateral damage.

Easiest example is Volcarona's preemptive quickban. Iron Valiant is currently running rampant partially because one of its most reliable checks was removed from the tier. The same will happen if you remove stuff like Kingambit or Garganacl (losing ghost resists in a tier where ghost is a stupidly spammable STAB), or removing anything else that holds an important place in the meta.

Moreover, banning stuff now, only to bring them back when tera is gone sounds pretty inefficient to me, in all honesty.
 
Time to spout my opinions on stuff -

Terastallization - I 100% believe that Tera as a whole is a huge net positive for the meta that promotes creativity, fun teambuilding, variety, and I believe that it should stay; however, if a restriction must be placed on it, make Tera types visible in team preview.

Quick Claw - Yeet it, please. It's not that it's "broken", it's just annoying and not skill-based.

Volcarona - 2; I'm not opposed to a retest, I just feel that it's unnecessary as the metagame feels healthier without Volcarona in it, in my opinion.

Kingambit - 3; Maybe I'm a bit biased here because I generally don't have problems handling Kingambit with Pokemon like Calyrex, but at the same time I can see the restrictive pressure it can exert on teambuilding (specifically mid-late game answers). I'm split down the middle on this one, so I'm open to a suspect regardless of the result.

Garganacl - 2; Rocky dude is strong, but there are plenty of countermeasures available to handle him. He can feel a bit "too" strong against certain team types, but lately, I haven't seen that be as much of an issue as it was earlier in the generation.

Iron Valiant - 4; This thing is one of the most flexible Pokemon in the meta, on par with top-tier picks like Great Tusk IMO. The variety of sets it can pull off, multiple item slots, double Knock Off resistance, and stupendous stats are truly astounding. I think that at some point it should get a suspect.

Sneasler - 3; As time has gone on, I've shifted my stance from "ban it" to "watch it", I still think it's really underexplored and Dire Claw is aggressively annoying and can feel borderline uncompetitive.

Baxcalibur - 2; This thing hits like a truck, but it's not unkillable. I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect test, but I think there are much more pressing Pokemon to look into.

Samurott-Hisui - 1; Perfectly healthy for the metagame, I have no complaints - it's easy to handle and has plenty of counterplay. Ceaseless Edge is far less imposing than I originally thought it would be pre-Home.

Light Clay - 4; Still can't stand it, it enables some really unhealthy playstyles.
 

awyp

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Having Hamurott deals with GT because of the OHKO it forces with hydro pump. Hamurott likely wouldn’t become unviable if it lost Edge, we’re at a lack of Knock users right now and Hamurott has knock. Sharpness is also a great ability that pairs with with a lot of moves. Besides, if it doesn’t work out we just ban Hamurott entirely and sweep the idea of banning sig moves under the table. An experiment wouldn’t hurt, would it?
Separate question to council and leaders,
Finchinator ausma Ruft AndViet ima FlamingVictini TPP Star
What did y’all put on the survey (if you did), and if not, what would you have put? Curious what the top has to say.
heads up I’m not part of the OU council.
Removing things that have an important place in the meta but are potentially busted due to being broken tera abusers can end up causing more collateral damage.

Easiest example is Volcarona's preemptive quickban. Iron Valiant is currently running rampant partially because one of its most reliable checks was removed from the tier. The same will happen if you remove stuff like Kingambit or Garganacl (losing ghost resists in a tier where ghost is a stupidly spammable STAB), or removing anything else that holds an important place in the meta.

Moreover, banning stuff now, only to bring them back when tera is gone sounds pretty inefficient to me, in all honesty.
I get that but we’re going based off the assumption that Tera will be restricted or banned if it doesn’t that doesn’t change anything and certain mons will still be busted regardless. I’m not pro banning Kingambit but I do think there is an argument to be made that Kingambit without Tera is still pretty busted. Like for example I think Sneasler is broken regardless of Tera as long as it has Dire Claw tbh.
 
Typing this as I finish up the survery itself...
Meta enjoyment- 7; the fact that the meta is actually upon us is already amazing. Is it as good as we hoped, though? Well mostly yes, but....
Meta balance- 6; as mentioned by others already, the meta's in a very particular state right now; it's playable, but there's still so many variables to take into account now...
For tera I said yes to action, and in the comments below I suggest tera preview alongside also looking at/possibly banning tera blast. I see that AndViet's already somewhat sniped me on this, but while tera preview itself is the -best- restriction option (banning stab/non stab tera feels too crippling for the mechanic imo, especially the latter which gives it its infamous versatility), tera blast's impact on this whole matter is also often overlooked; yes, the move is useless if you don't tera unless you're a special attacking normal type but the potential to give -anything- a free 120 bp stab move, while it certainly expands upon new dimensions of mons, is unquestionably also pushes the grounds for potentially banworthy territory (regieleki, volcarona, kingambit vs fighting types, etc). Regardless though, the banning of tera blast is unlikely to be as popular an opinion as just tera preview, which is why I don't push too hard on it.
For quick claw I also said yes to action, though frankly I'm indifferent to it either way; it's certainly -uncompetitive- but...eh? Might just be a trend, who knows. Though the effectiveness of that mono quick claw team is quite scary....because it's on already good to great mons, backed up by screens (more on this later).
Volcarona: 3- tera+boots definitely make the mon scary to face especially lategame, though I do believe it could use some time back in the limelight.
Kingambit: 4- mostly on the basis of the "25-25-25-25" chances being insanely stressful to map out every turn perfectly, especially as lategame approaches; kingambit's sheer bulk and power often favor it in such exchanges, especially with an unrevealed tera.
Garganacl: 3- honestly I could easily be swayed to 4, a wall of this caliber having completely unconditional immunity to any status effect, basically perfect stats for a wall/tank, on top of an absurdly dumb signature move/pseudo status condition that is permanent (without switching out) and super effective against 2 of the best defensive types in the game is just dumb, like seriously this mon is the ultimate defition of power/feature creep in a single package. Tera just pushes it to egregious territory, improving its defensive profile further by ridding it of the rock type's faults (or it can use tera ghost curse to kill other bulky mons even faster in tandem with block/salt cure. Sub/covert cloak still cost a move/item slot respectively and do not always guarantee that it won't have a way around them, either. Speaking of 1-time commitment...
Valiant: 2- its versatility and potential have to be respected, but as already mentioned, its absurd 4mms+booster energy being one time mean it can only do so many things at any given time, especially with physical sets lacking stab play rough.
Sneasler: 2- honestly mostly here because of dire claw sleep always keeping things uncertain against it; aside from balloon, most unburden sets can be too unreliable for it to yield consistent results. Balloon in particular is the best as a one package immunity to both a major weakness and spikes at once and also webs >:( giving it further switchin opportunities. Otherwise though, coverage issues may make the unburden sets too risky to get going vs a healthy team, particularly if you -need- to send out sneasler early and click cc to waste white herb/already consume its terrain seed.
Baxcalibur: 2-honestly kinda surprising to see this here, but tera can indeed make the mon much scarier to face. Particularly, tera fairy completely flips its defensive profile, letting it get that one free, game-ending dd it needs against things it shouldn't be able to set up on. That aside though, the mon is mostly fine.
H-Samurott: 1- honestly almost considered 2 on the basis that the mon is much more than just a ceaseless edge bot
a misconception many people seem to still have to this day but ultimately...yes, it sets up spikes while attacking, while having the perfect stat spread/toolkit to complement things. Does this make the mon overbearing? Not...really. Its typing is quite solid defensively on one hand, yet particular type weaknesses+middling bulk make it not hard to take down. Sharpness gives a free band boost to its most relevant moves, but its atk usually isn't enough to always wallbreak/clean for itself, without sd/a boosting item. It's also slower than offensive tusk, which obviously puts the burden on it to stay on its toes at all times. Outside of c.edge, it can sometimes also face 4mms- hydro is great vs tusk/treads, but razor shell's better vs almost everything else; sacred sword is basically perfect coverage with its stabs, yet there might not always be space to run it- same for its priority moves, of which one is better is yet another team-dependent dilemma. And ofc, this isn't taking into account various utility moves like taunt, sd, or even grass knot for dondozo that still hits tusk. So yeah, the mon's definitely really good, but not broken honestly, despite the spikestack discourse.
Other mentions: It's here that I mention my thoughts on tera preview/tera blast. Aside from these, I also lightly go over ursaluna (no less scary under trick room than before, it just now takes a bit more effort to maintain it), gholdengo (mostly because, from experience, I -do- recognize the sentiments people have about its potency alongside h-samurott, both as a mon core and also for its spikes-maintaining ability, and also mention that enamorus-i isn't really worth looking into; the mon fits the tier just fine, just barely not having enough traits to be considered broken
one could argue about tera ground, but...anyway and finally....light clay. I do still find the notion of it being too much for ou rather sudden, but one cannot deny its effectiveness is still there, especially with this mono quick claw team bringing it back to attention again. But perhaps the most important part, as I highlight there, is that its counterplay isn't really...widespread/worth running; pretty much nothing would want to use brick break>other fighting moves (and pult blocks it), psychic fangs users are sadly not really ou-notable (and grimmsnarl blocks it) and defog is really uncommon outside of corv, whose gholdengo dilemmas are like, the most common non tera complaints about the tier lmao.
So....yeah, that should be about it, I think. If you made it this far, thanks for reading and enjoy the rest of your day/happy laddering!
 

Baloor

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survey

Tera - Needs action, I have talked about this a lot so won't stick on the topic too long and just post my main gripes rather than 13 reasons why I would ban tera. Forces a primarily offensive meta, while SV will likely stay a offense meta, banning tera opens up more opportunities with balance and fatter archetypes as counterplay to some of the absurdly over the top threats becomes more linear, opening up more building diversity. Right now it feels like offense has tools for anything, and if you just want to play offense I can see why you don't care, but I personally like metagames where a large variety of structures and archetypes are viable and when a particular archetype just can blow through basically everything, i don't find that fun. Everything outside of offense and to an extent, Bulky Offense, feels very limited which is annoying. sure, tera adds some creative elements to building, and a funny ooo gotcha when certain lures work out but overall I dislike how insane it makes pokemon with relatively straightforward counterplay otherwise, letting them muscle past supposeded checks. Banning tera seems like the most logical route, getting rid of the common denominator in future bans rather than removing a bunch of good -> great options otherwise, especially in certain cases where removing them causes a significant domino effect (looking at gambit). That said, both sides of the tera argument have made up their mind and talking about tera with certain individuals just becomes a insult slinging contest so its kind of pointless to try and make compelling arguments when other people will just say "nuh-uh". This goes for both sides because I have seen this thread littered with just dumb pro tera arguments where they're more insulting people who like tera than actually giving reasons why they think the mechanic should be banned. I don't think the aspect of it makes the tier more interesting to watch is feasible and is 100% a cope argument.

that said, i feel a tera ban would play better in a DLC environment but right the meta feels pretty suffocating so I understand why the test is soon.

:volcarona: keep banned. this mon is incredibly restrictive and can win most matchups. no reason to take a step back in meta development and if you are you going to complain about valiant at this stage, just ban it, its what the tera meta signed up for. removing it was a good nerf to HO and added more diversity to the tier. sure the qb was a bit silly but overall its ban has been good for the tier and people wanting a retest are mostly just lashing out at council.

:quick-claw: yall losing to this?

:kingambit: 5, this mon is the most meta defining and polarizing pokemon in the tier. it literally cause games to be played around it and the amount of end games that turn into gambit tera guessing game vs the world is insane (look at wcop lol). this mon without tera is still good but tera pushes this thing over the edge and makes playing endgames rn a absolute nightmare. it really sucks because banning this pokemon will also have some really shitty downsides down to it defensively helping the tier a lot but this pokemon is just so low skill high reward and can swing endgames even if you play like utter garbage its hard to defend.

:iron-valiant: 5, less polarizing than gambit but its movepool + tera lets it make good progress vs any given team. much like the old saying with volcarona goes, one if its sets is bound to be basically a auto loss.

:sneasler: 5, honestly this guy is not a 5 but also fuck this pokemon. gimmicky bullshit that is incredibly hard to deal with, also has a chance to randomly sleep its more reliable checks. people compare this to flamebody and static but its really not comparable. you're opponent can just sit there and mash buttons and randomly sleep you, while static you still can predict the swap and choose not to hit into. RNG based? yes but i would not complain if we just nuked this guy and i never had to see it again.

:garganacl: 4, way better than it was pre home. best water type in the tier. this thing is a bitch to deal with but is also kind of holding the tier together because it makes playing anything other than offense possible.

:baxcalibur: 3, can be very annoying and just win sometimes but still sorta manageable. theres bigger issues rn and this is low priority for me even though i do think its a little too strong.

:samurott-hisui: 2, never really thought about this before. i gave it a 2 because i think theres something there but I just don't see the vision at this time. that said, ceaseless edge is 100% a broken move that is meta warping but its tacked on a pokemon thats overall just okay which combines to make a just good pokemon. the conversation for this will be interesting but right now i dont think we need to look into this too much.
 
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Light Clay - 4; Still can't stand it, it enables some really unhealthy playstyles.
such as, for example, the team that's responsible for putting quick claw on the radar. i don't think the problem here is quick claw at all—the item's existed unchanged for 25 years in pretty much every meta climate you can imagine, surely someone would have discovered it before now if it were problematic in and of itself. i think it's the fact that we have a prankster screener with a priority pivot move and that can enable you to fuck around with whatever dumb meme strat you want and still come out on top
 
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What is the point of discussing terablast? There are at most 3-4 mons in the entire tier who rely on it extensively. Banning tera blast won't solve any of the issues tera presents, all it will do is unban Regieleki.
 

Lily

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Here's what I answered to the survey, in case anyone's curious:

Tera - My opinion on Tera is clear as day by now but tl;dr it hasn't pushed more than a couple of mons over the edge. Volcarona and Regieleki are the only Pokemon that could confidently be freed if Tera was banned. Of the other mons that are currently banned, Annihilape, Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Espathra, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Spectrier, and the Urshifus would still be absolutely absurd. Palafin is a maybe I suppose. The depth provided by Tera in-game and in-builder makes this gen much more rewarding for the creative and active player than for the pokepaste clicker; I think that's a good thing for metagame health. I will elaborate more on this in the inevitable Tera discussion thread though.


:volcarona: Volcarona - I voted 4 to retest it on principle as I think something getting banned solely for the sake of a tournament is super overkill. I don't necessarily think it'd be Fine, but it deserves a community say.

:quick claw: it's just cheese lol who cares

:kingambit: Kingambit - I voted 4. I think Kingambit is the most broken of the mons currently available but I don't necessarily think that makes it broken; I do think it's pretty unreasonable to find counterplay for, though. Most of the Good Answers are either so constrained that teching for them is easy (Tera Flying @ Tusk/Lando) or just aren't really viable anymore (Quaquaval). Or they're Dondozo. I think playing around it in-battle is a lot harder than feeling safe against it in the builder and it's true that it very consistently trades its life for 2 or even 3, I'm not sure if I'd vote ban but I think it def needs to get on the chopping block.

:iron valiant: Iron Valiant - 2. It's not that hard to find good checks to Valiant on balancey stuff at all. It is very difficult to handle it for offense; that's kind of a good thing, though, with how dominant offense is rn. It's nice to have something that keeps it in check. You can tech stuff for it easily enough too; Tera Poison mons, Iron Moth, Scizor, etc. so it's not really that big a deal. Accounting for it in the builder is reasonable but again it's one of those mons that's pretty scary in-battle because you don't really know what it's going to do. It's one of the few reasons I mildly support tera preview lol.

:sneasler: Sneasler - 2. Dire Claw is a silly move but it really hasn't shown its stupidity much at all as was expected bc it doesn't get that many chances to click. An awkward thing with Sneasler is that unlike everything else on the list, it doesn't really "add" anything, so you could get rid of it on the basis of it being obnoxious cheese and I wouldn't mind that much but I can't really call it broken.

:garganacl: Garganacl - 2. People are disrespecting it and getting mad when they get cured. We'll find out again in time that Covert Cloak is a good item, Sub mons are still cracked etc. and it'll die down a bit. No need for action right now.

:baxcalibur: - I was honestly surprised as heck to see this guy here, and I voted 1. Bax is just a Strong Breaker with flaws. A few surveys back I was clamoring for a Bax ban but the state of the metagame has changed a lot and it's not amazing into offense by any means (though it certainly isn't bad); it's a great option because it does a number into balance without sacrificing the offense MU too hard and I appreciate that as a thing that's in the tier. Later on down the line it might get silly but I think it's far from the problem right now.

:samurott-hisui: - 1. We have 1 viable hazard removal mon. You are going to have to get used to Boots spam whether this mon is banned or not. If you accept that and just suck it up, it's an NU mon at best.

I also mentioned :enamorus: Enamorus as a potential issue down the road but I don't truly see it as one right now; the offensive metagame keeps it in check, but if things slow down I can see this becoming a problem.
 
Zamazenta at home
Carbink @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Blank
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Body Press
- Stomping Tantrum
- Iron Defense
- Trick Room
Shitty but worth trying, might be good in a lower tier. Gets hard countered by Drifblim, but you can always replace ST with something else.
I honestly just thought this would be funny, if someone is willing to try it out, go for it. And while you’re at it, tell me how it performs.
 
Zamazenta at home
Carbink @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Blank
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Body Press
- Stomping Tantrum
- Iron Defense
- Trick Room
Shitty but worth trying, might be good in a lower tier. Gets hard countered by Drifblim, but you can always replace ST with something else.
I honestly just thought this would be funny, if someone is willing to try it out, go for it. And while you’re at it, tell me how it performs.
with tera fighting i can sort of see potential, but there is literally no reason to ever, ever, even as a joke, use carbink over diancie in a meta where they're both allowed
 
Zamazenta at home
Carbink @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Blank
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Body Press
- Stomping Tantrum
- Iron Defense
- Trick Room
Shitty but worth trying, might be good in a lower tier. Gets hard countered by Drifblim, but you can always replace ST with something else.
I honestly just thought this would be funny, if someone is willing to try it out, go for it. And while you’re at it, tell me how it performs.
I think this belongs in the PU metagame discussion
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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Having Hamurott deals with GT because of the OHKO it forces with hydro pump. Hamurott likely wouldn’t become unviable if it lost Edge, we’re at a lack of Knock users right now and Hamurott has knock. Sharpness is also a great ability that pairs with with a lot of moves. Besides, if it doesn’t work out we just ban Hamurott entirely and sweep the idea of banning sig moves under the table. An experiment wouldn’t hurt, would it?
Separate question to council and leaders,
Finchinator ausma Ruft AndViet ima FlamingVictini TPP Star
What did y’all put on the survey (if you did), and if not, what would you have put? Curious what the top has to say.

Enjoyable - 7 (Opinionated)
Competitive - 5
Tiering Action for both Quick Claw and Tera (Read my prior posts)
Volc needs to be retested (5) (Read my prior posts)
Kingambit (4) (Read my prior posts)
Nacl (3) (I think it's definitely gaining momentum in terms of being a fantastic wall just to stick on your team but I don't think it's worthy of a test right now)
Valiant (2) (Very good mon but too fragile defensively)
Sneasler (5) (Read my prior posts)
Baxcalibur (1) (Yeah no it's totally fine, not that fast, tera pushes it to the next level but gets walled by certain defensive walls and can be revenged easily even after 1 Dragon Dance)
Samurott H (1) (Ceaseless Edge is not broken, it sets up spikes and does damage with the chance to miss)
 
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I filled out the survey several hours ago but I forgot to make a forum post about it so now I'll have to go off of memory.

On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?
7
-8. Call me crazy, but I actually think post-HOME has been quite fun so far. There's so much crazy shit flying around that it ends up becoming somewhat "balanced" by virtue of everything being broken, just in different flavors of broken. Reminds me of BW OU. I understand why some people don't like broken vs broken, and I personally think some touch-ups would be for the better, but overall I like it a lot more than pre-HOME.

On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?
I think I voted like 5 or 6 on this. This meta is fucking borked, but that's what makes it appealing to me. Again, I think some touch-ups would be for the better, which is why it isn't much higher.

Do you feel any tiering action at all (ban or restriction) is needed on the topic of Terastallization?
Yes. Ban that shit, take no prisoners.

Do you feel any tiering action at all is warranted on the item
Quick Claw?
No. The craze around Quick Claw I feel is nothing more than a repeat of Walking Wake's release where everyone was freaking out over how it was unbeatable, and then people realized it's not that big of a deal. I think Quick Claw is annoying and I definitely won't miss it if it gets the boot, but I think there's better things to focus on.

Do you feel that a retest of
Volcarona is warranted in the current metagame?
No. I always thought Volc was a dumb mon because if you got it in at the right time you basically won on the spot. I begrudgingly accepted it however because you needed to jump through a lot of hoops to get it in that position. Now getting it into that position is easier than ever thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, but what really pushes it over the edge is Terastallization. Now you can't even hope to stop its sweep with the many different types it can Tera into, both offensively and defensively. If Tera gets banned or restricted, I'd be open to the possibility of bringing it back into the tier. But as it currently stands, no.

For the following, rate how worthy of tiering action you feel these Pokemon or moves are in the current metagame.

Kingambit - 3, leaning into a 4. I'm somewhat conflicted on this one. On one hand, it looks freaking awesome, and I like having a defensive fallback that can hit back pretty hard. On the other hand, I don't like the mindgames it forces with its Supreme Overlord boosted Sucker Punches. And being able to pull a win out of its ass with a surprise Tera just sucks. Despite all that I personally love Kingambit, but I understand why people want it banned and I will not be crying at its funeral for long.

Garganacl - 1. With how HO-focused this meta is at the moment, I think having a slow defensive mon can be a good thing. Salt Cure is annoying, but not unanswerable. Iron Defense or Curse sets are potentially cheesy, but when all else fails a strong enough special attacker should be able to pack it up quickly.

Iron Valiant - 3, leaning into a 2. This is another one I'm conflicted on. I absolutely loved this thing pre-HOME since it dealt with top threats very effectively while having plenty of checks to reign it in. But with the release of HOME, I feel that the mons that were formerly able to check Val are now scared off by all the other crazy shit that was added, leaving it free to run wild with the billions of potential sets it can run. That being said, Val still has to put up with 4MSS, and it becomes easier to manage if you can take away the speed boost from Booster Energy.

Sneasler - 4. Dire Claw is the main thing on everyone's minds, but I don't think that's what pushes Sneasler over the edge - my thoughts on that here. What I'm more concerned about is Unburden combined with its insane movepool that can hit everything. Close Combat to fuck things up, Acrobatics to compliment the item loss that triggers Unburden, Shadow Claw to deal with ghosts and other potential CC switch-ins, U-Turn to pivot out, Swords Dance to really dig your heel into your opponent's face, Fire Punch if you hate Corviknight, and Night Slash if you really, really hate Zoroark-H. And that's barely scratching the surface! The reason I'm voting 4 and not 5 is because I feel that Dondozo and maybe Corviknight on a good day are solid enough checks that can switch in on it. And even though it's still blisteringly fast even without Unburden, losing the speed boost notably makes it susceptible to mons running Choice Scarf or Booster Energy, or anything just plain faster than it.

Baxcalibur - Gonna be honest, I completely forgot what I rated this one. I think, like, 2? And that's just because I don't like dealing with setup sweepers, which I'm fully aware is a colossal skill issue on my part.

Hisuian Samurott - 1. I actually quite like this mon! Being able to set up spikes for basically free is really good, but I don't think it pushes hazards over the edge or anything like that. Removing Hamurott won't change the fact there's like, one viable Rapid Spin user. Maybe two if you really like Torkoal. My point is that if Hamurott goes away, everyone is just gonna go back to lead Glimmora or Ting-Lu instead. Not to mention it can do things other than click Ceaseless Edge three times in a row; It has Razor Shell/Aqua Cutter and Sacred Sword to threaten potential switch-ins, alongside Sucker Punch or Aqua Jet for priority in a pinch. There's also Swords Dance, but I personally don't think it's that great as a sweeper due to its middling speed. Overall, cool mon, I like it.
 
:Volcarona:

I genuinely want to have a focused discussion on what the volc ban accomplished cause I feel like every time anyone talks about volcarona's ban, its specifically just bias towards whether or not they hate it without actually analyzing what changed for them besides it being gone. The council voted ban with a goal in mind and I do not see what that goal is cause nothing was achieved in the end result.

I have not seen teams change at all since its ban, if anything I actually see less of a variety of teams. All volc's checks are still being played and running their same sets, all the reasons it was banned just shifted towards the other sweepers which are now greenlit to do exactly the same bullshit with 1 consistent tera type or set, and volc was really overexaggerated on how much usage it has and prep work was needed for it, as evidence by the fact literally none of its checks lost viability or used new movesets from its departure, it was just there.

The only metagame trends we're seeing since its ban is quick claw (lol, actually whats funnier is if quick claw is really that bullshit it cheeses volcarona as well.), Iron valient, who pretty much has no switch-ins with volc gone, kingambit who is possibly the only one pressured to run an anti-volc tera becoming even more unhinged now, and zamazenta is still a solid pokemon with few checks in the game despite the suspect result, volc would actually balance it out cause rn its really slept on how few options you have for zama in mind.

By all means post teams you used before volc ban, and after volc ban to prove me wrong but nothing has improved from the ban, only gotten worse. Volc being gone has revealed what it did add to the tier rather than what it ruined about it, we're not really seeing much improving as a result which implies it wasn't ruining anything.
 
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counter point - a mon doesn't need to have an earth shaking impact on the meta to justify a ban. If offensive threat density is crazy high and out of control (as it is now), removing one single mon wouldn't affect the meta too much, but is a necessary first step in bringing that density to a reasonable point. The first ban might not do anything. The second ban might only be slightly felt. The third ban might be the starting point where you feel the pressure getting relieved. It doesn't mean the first couple of steps shouldn't be taken.

Banning to alter the meta is a perfectly valid reason to ban a mon, and frequently there's no silver bullet (well there is one now, council just refuses to pull the trigger on a tera ban). It's a process.

Fact is, the way the current meta is, almost nothing getting banned will have any impact on the format. Nothing's really warping the format around itself, and most of the good mons are there because they're good mons. You could quickban kingambit tomorrow and not change the meta either more than likely. Garg, Iron Valiant, none of these bans would really change the meta.

> By all means post teams you used before volc ban, and after volc ban to prove me wrong but nothing has improved from the ban, only gotten worse. Volc being gone has revealed what it did add to the tier rather than what it ruined about it, we're not really seeing much improving as a result which implies it wasn't ruining anything.

This basically boils down to 'broken checks broken' though. Which isn't something we should be encouraging. Removing one mon creating more problems than it solved doesn't mean we were wrong to remove the mon in the first place, it just means that the meta was a house of cards and we need to axe more things to create a truly healthy meta instead of a precariously balanced broken checks broken meta.

I would also counterpoint that many of the other mons banned already had no real effect on the meta beside them being removed.
 
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I feel that in a gambit-less meta, people would be forced into using a garg or even a fucking eviolite BISHARP to stop pult. At the moment the counter play is limited to scarfed darks/scarf cheeseman, gambit, bax shard, and spdef garg. I may be missing something, but while it is definitely a very powerful threat lategame, it seems to be a necessary evil.
(Though this may just be because I love broken checks broken metas a la USUM)
 
blissey and toxapex still generally stop dragapult. Clodsire, Ting-Lu.

Also again, if dragapult gets out of control after a kingambit ban, it can eat this boot too.
 
Yeah, but blissey is relevant only on stall, and clods viability has dropped to almost entirely rain teams. Ting lu doesn’t have recovery and can’t really ohko back, but Pex is a viable block. Also with ting, most if the time ig also has to check the other threats like gambit that may be on the other players team
 
Enjoyable - 8
Yeah, I've been having lots of fun, (even before I started playing QC) ! Still like gen 8 a bit more though, so I won't give this a 10. The presence of some mons (cough cough Garganacl) also make this tier a little less fun than it could be. That and the unbreakable resolve of stall players to inflict 100+ turn matches upon all of us, despite this gen being maybe the worst yet for the archetype in many, many years.

Competitive - 7
Playing at top ladder didn't feel like a cheese festival. I got surprised a bunch of times by strange teras, but this is fine. A good meta should allow for different and surprising sets. That being said, the overwhelming amount of potential threats means that most teams will have at least one glaring weakness to a mon or another, and that trying to patch it up will open up another. This shows when the top playstyles at high ladder are by far screens offense and setup spam HO, with balance being almost completely extinct. But imo it's still better than gen 7 or 5, so I gave this a light 7.

Tera - No action needed imo. I don't understand the fuss over Tera, honestly. Predicting tera is about as hard as predicting Z-moves in gen 7, and just like 7, you will sometimes get it wrong and lose as a result. I think the tera hate will die down as people become more and more used to it. While using your tera early can potentially give you immediate advantage at the cost of losing the surprise effect / not being able to use tera for a late game sweep, keeping your tera hidden to try and get into a winning position can be hard and constricts your decision making for all of the early and mid game. This means that most unpredictable tera uses are early game ones, because when it comes down to 3 pokes or less, you KNOW that the one who teras will very likely be a sweeper (gambit, valiant, sneasler, etc...) and you can guess from the usual tera types what to expect. It's an interesting balance of aggro play to gain immediate advantage and keep the pressure up vs try to position yourself for a late game sweep. Honestly feels kinda great.

Quick Claw - Imo quick claw is different from brightpowder and king's rock in the sense that it's way harder to abuse. Brightpowder is passive and constantly works, whether you're attacking or not, so there's never a real drawback of using it outside of opportunity cost because getting a dodge is always good, even on status moves. King's rock is ALWAYS good on a pokemon which attacks first, and is especially good with multi-hit moves, which means that there are set conditions that make king's rock extremely reliable and very hard to beat. Imo the reason king's rock was banned isnt even that it was uncompetitive; it just made cloyster and similar pokemon legitimately too strong. Saying king's rock is uncompetitive is the same as saying scarf jirachi is uncompetitive. While cloy is gone now, something like DD bax or Tidy Up maus could easily abuse this again, and I also think it would be too strong. Now quick claw on the other hand, is useless on fast pokemon because to get leverage from it you'd have to have it proc on the specific turn where you're against something even faster, a very unlikely situation. Which means it can only work for very slow pokemon, so you're already putting yourself at a disadvantage if you wanna try to use it, because it forces you into a certain playstyle that can be taken advantage of. Basically, think of it like this. Even with 5 claw abusers + screens, you have a 20% chance to get a proc. If we assume each of these mons stay on the field for an average of 3 turns (which I think is fair, given the fact that even though they're all bulky, the tier is filled by offensive monsters), you get an expected number of procs of 15 * 0.2 = 3 in a game (and that's generous). Now you don't control when these happens, so its very possible they'll happen on a useless timing. At this point, even setting up TR just once gives you more turns of going first. No tiering action required.

Volc - 2. I don't think it should come back so soon. The circumstances are almost the same as when it was banned. The only reason I could see to retest this is because the QB felt a bit arbitrary, but honestly volc is just kingambit but special, let's not lie. All the people complaining about this being gone and also wanting gambit out, I don't understand you.

Kingambit - 3 Gambit is very strong and overcentralizing, but it's also a mon with a ton of skill expression. Feeling really unsure about this one.

Garganacl - 4 This mon can very easily run away with a game, depending on its tera type matchup versus your team. There isn't one big counter, wereas heatran always countered volc with appropriate tera (bug), and tusk or iron hands are pretty surefire counters to gambit. It's pretty much the only mon, along with heatran and possibly sneasler, that has a relevant move who's effects are negated by covert cloak, and yet it's solely responsible for the popularity of an otherwise very meh item, that has absolutely no advantage in most situations. I really hate garg, and the only reason I didn't give it a 5 is because its speed is abysmal so offensive counterplay is still a possible answer.

Valiant, Sneasler, Bax - 1
Just your run of the mill lategame sweepers, don't think there's anything wrong with them. I could see a booster energy suspect though.

Samurott H - 4
This imo really makes it very hard to have consistent hazard counterplay, especially in conjunction with gholdengo. Kleavor is a bit more reasonable because it has noticably worse typing + SR doesn't stack and rock is much worse offensive type than dark imo. But yeah he's the reason I completely decided to forgo hazard control on my monoclaw team, and why I might continue to do so on other offensive teams. Trying to contest hazards vs this or glimm + ghold is really like swimming upstream of a torrent, and can lead to getting your great tusk needlessly worn down during the game and then lose to gambit/sneasler/roaring moon as a result. The mon can also run SD (as seen on Finchinator's team in WCOP) or scarf to surprise it's usual checks and it has access to stab knock off, a very rare trait in the tier. It's broken in terms of the utility it provides, much like clef in gen 8 (which hot take, should also have been at least suspected for being on 70% of high elo teams and being a major factor in slowing that meta down.)

Special Mentions - Ghold, idk if there should really be tiering action vs ghold rn, but definitely keep an eye on it. It's very very very good.
 
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I was thinking and tera can't be compared to z moves. Z moves were for the most part offensive, with the only odd ones being things like z haze(recovered health) and z celebrate(omni boost). That's not even factoring the defensive options like more recovery pp and just more defog options. I was thinking of it as similar pressure, have to get opponent to use, but you could run fully functioning teams without a z move. Tera in comparison is there for everything, you could not use it, but then you lack "checks" to certain things.

I get people like this but I'm not seeing anything this adds to the meta that doesn't contradict itself. Defensive mons can check more stuff but offensive mons get more in resistances and new stab. Really don't think this was a mechanic balanced even remotely for singles.
 
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