Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Thread is dead, We need another 50 page long tirade about qb's or tera hello? /j

Dead for now, it'll probably pick up speed in the next coming days since news about the results of the survey should come out. So there will be discussion for what'll be next in line for a Quick Ban / Ban. I'm actually going to be posting a replay about how Tera Preview can be beneficial in the Tera Re-Suspect vote.
 
Just gonna come out and say it that there most likely wasn't enough community support for the suspect of tera, Would love to see a gambit suspect before tera honestly at this point like its obviously broken and needs to be addressed but if we can put it off forever as a joke that would be funny.

Shit would be like g7 literally only banning the IN your FACE brokens and then leaving Mag and Friends in the tier
 
I think personally if we had to wait for the WCOP to be over until the Tera Suspect, that easily gives us a month for a Kingambit suspect test we can have because I know without a doubt there's enough community support for Kingambit to be tested. So yeah Kingambit (should) be next.
 
Nah it defo should go there are still a handful of maybe iffy reasons to keep Tera in OU

Whereas for Gambit its just this silly domino effect notion of "Gambit ban = Ghold + Pult ban = Ival + Enam ban"
 
I think we could test Volc back into the meta, but it's definitely iffy as Volc while bringing some stability was primarily banned because of its potency in abusing Tera.

I really hope Volc does bring in enough votes that we can have that well deserved re-test to bring it back into the tier, because I think partial reason that Gambit is going crazy rn is because there's no Volc in the tier and it's not worried about getting Flame Body'd or Wisp'd.
 
I get where both of you are coming from but in all seriousness Volc & Tera cannot coexsist in a "healthy" metagame even though this meta is hardly healthy, Reintroducing Volc would only serve to further destablize the metagame regardless of how it checked Gambit and Val

Basically meta rn is garbo bringing MU MOTH back would only serve to worsen already on fire meta
 
I get where both of you are coming from but in all seriousness Volc & Tera cannot coexsist in a "healthy" metagame even though this meta is hardly healthy, Reintroducing Volc would only serve to further destablize the metagame regardless of how it checked Gambit and Val

Basically meta rn is garbo bringing MU MOTH back would only serve to worsen already on fire meta

The last survey held that Volc wasn't regarded as a big problem. The ban reasoning was "Stabilize the tier for WCOP," not "People hate the matchup moth and thinks it's a huge problem."

Volcarona can run a lot of tera-types viably pre-Home, but a lot of those niche picks get hard walled by solid mons like Heatran, which serves to restrict its options quite a bit. Volc was also very good into the fairy types while fitting into most team styles and helped prevent Kingambit from utterly dominating the tier, both of which are valuable additions to the metagame.

You might personally hate Volc, but OU as a whole didn't see it as a glaring problem.
 
The last survey held that Volc wasn't regarded as a big problem. The ban reasoning was "Stabilize the tier for WCOP," not "People hate the matchup moth and thinks it's a huge problem."

Volcarona can run a lot of tera-types viably pre-Home, but a lot of those niche picks get hard walled by solid mons like Heatran, which serves to restrict its options quite a bit. Volc was also very good into the fairy types while fitting into most team styles and helped prevent Kingambit from utterly dominating the tier, both of which are valuable additions to the metagame.

You might personally hate Volc, but OU as a whole didn't see it as a glaring problem.
It is curious to me how with Volc people always says that it picking its counters was the worst for the competitive scene but with Valiant doing the same they said "well, it can pick its counters but can't beat them all with the same set" which for some reason it applies to Valiant but when you said that about Volc it wasn't a valid argument.
Volc ban accomplished nothing, almost all the teams and mons stayed the same, there wasn't big changes on the sets used besides some teras in particular (unlike what we are seeing with Glowking running the dark resist berry to stop Valiant) while it just made some of the top mons like Valiant, Gholdengo or Gambit stronger.
 
The last survey held that Volc wasn't regarded as a big problem. The ban reasoning was "Stabilize the tier for WCOP," not "People hate the matchup moth and thinks it's a huge problem."

Volcarona can run a lot of tera-types viably pre-Home, but a lot of those niche picks get hard walled by solid mons like Heatran, which serves to restrict its options quite a bit. Volc was also very good into the fairy types while fitting into most team styles and helped prevent Kingambit from utterly dominating the tier, both of which are valuable additions to the metagame.

You might personally hate Volc, but OU as a whole didn't see it as a glaring problem.
I get behind the reasoning put out by the council though, Realistically what more did volc need other than Tera Water to beat nearly any sort of "viable" counters Glowking, Heatran, Dragonite, and Azu all just fold to bulky qd tera water what did you want people to start using on ladder and in prestigious tours fucking sap sipper azu or some shitmon?
 
Volcarona was and is an incredibly unhealthy Pokemon in the metagame. It's got a ton of amazing qualities, and I do understand that a lot of people here feel slighted by the fact that the Council banned it so they could have their big tour, but in all seriousness, this mon was unhealthy from the get-go, and if you thought WCOP with copious amounts of HO with Tera were going to be tarnishing, Imagine Volc running around as well.
 
Volcarona was and is an incredibly unhealthy Pokemon in the metagame. It's got a ton of amazing qualities, and I do understand that a lot of people here feel slighted by the fact that the Council banned it so they could have their big tour, but in all seriousness, this mon was unhealthy from the get-go, and if you thought WCOP with copious amounts of HO with Tera were going to be tarnishing, Imagine Volc running around as well.
Except that Volc's ban has caused more negative impact in the tier than the good it caused, Glowking having to run coulbur berry just for Valiant is bad because without boots it loses other match ups that it should win, all because Valiant is way more stronger since Volc's ban, something similar happens with Gambit, while you don't see a good effect on the tier caused by Volc's ban.
I think tera should be tested before Volc/Gambit because if tera gets banned Volc will be unbanned anyway and Gambit likely becomes a lot more manageable
Honestly I don't think tera is going to be banned if there is another suspect and the best that could be expected is tera preview for now, so others suspects can be done.
 
It is curious to me how with Volc people always says that it picking its counters was the worst for the competitive scene but with Valiant doing the same they said "well, it can pick its counters but can't beat them all with the same set" which for some reason it applies to Valiant but when you said that about Volc it wasn't a valid argument.
The biggest reason I support Valiant but hate on Volc is what the moth can do outside of tera on top of it's offensive sets. Valiant can be either physical or special and can run mixed sets, but it's frail, has difficulty setting up, and if it's forced out after the use of Booster energy then it's a major momentum loss.

Volc has no such issues, but on top of that it has 2 forms of reliable recovery, the best set up move in the game, and a Unique Fire type move which in this meta is a blessing because you can proc a special attack boost at the cost of the extra initial damage other fire moves provide. It also has Bulky sets which can opt to Burn the opponent. And since it even has Flame Body, just attacking it with a physical move can cause burn (contact, but you get the idea). And keep in mind, I haven't touched on Tera yet.

Valiant imo is just to much of a glass cannon. It can pick it's threats, but unlike Volc it can't adapt to the situation without good support. And while Valiant has an amazing ability with booster energy (cause no way your getting electric terrain up), it is reliant on a single use item. It's functionally an Unburden user in that regards, great when it works and decent otherwise. But if your forced out, you lose major momentum. But not with Volc, you can keep bringing it in since it's nearly always running Boots. Sure you don't like to give up your Quiver dances, but with Giga Drain and morning sun at it's disposal it can outlast and potentially reset up.

Valiant is an extremely good pokemon, but volc can ultimately pick it's match ups better because it's Grass/Fire coverage moves hit basically everything not named Heatran for neutral. So if something it can't deal with comes along, Tera Blast becomes stupid good. And while Valiant can run Tera blast, it has such a vast array of coverage moves that are superior. Therefore, while it can punch holes through teams, it can't systematically destroy its checks with it's Frail bulk. Valiant can't reliably run a "defensive tera" because doing so might still get it Ko'd, so instead it runs the Tera type that works best with the offensive move it wants to use. Thats why Fighting, Fairy, Ghost, and Electric are such common Tera types. Because Valiant has much better moves than Tera Blast given to it and doesn't want to have a 80 BP normal move that may or may not have the correct Tera for use each game.
 
OK so I'm back. Tier shifts happened and Iron Treads remains OU. Imma find the people responsible for this and talk some sense into them.

Also, HOW DO YOU DROP FROM OU TO PU??? That's a mind boggling drop ngl
 
Tera has to be suspected first. It's such a huge change to the overall meta if banned that we're immediately going to have to retest virtually everything that got banned under tera or just reintroduce it straight up and throw the meta in a blender anyways. Even kingambit is significantly more managable if it would just stick to a type that dies to any fighting move/eq. Also banning tera gets volc at least re-tested if not reintroduced which is another check on kingambit. Even if we might still have to ban it down the road, kingambit definitely increases in counterplay enough to make it worth testing after a tera ban. So doing it now is kind of pointless, we'd probably have to do it immediately again anyways.

Whether or not it's likely to banned is up for debate (it 100% should be banned, but is highly unlikely to get banned), but that doesn't mean we should assume it's not going to be banned and do something that's not going to make sense if it is banned.

Also, HOW DO YOU DROP FROM OU TO PU??? That's a mind boggling drop ngl

That's just Tuesday for Ditto.
 
I don’t really think megas count in regards to this kind of power creep, they’re just buffing the current mon in question. It’s not getting outclassed, it’s getting more options.

Who’s who

The start of the video gives you the answer to who’s who :heart:
 
oucouncil.jpeg
 
It is curious to me how with Volc people always says that it picking its counters was the worst for the competitive scene but with Valiant doing the same they said "well, it can pick its counters but can't beat them all with the same set" which for some reason it applies to Valiant but when you said that about Volc it wasn't a valid argument.
Volc ban accomplished nothing, almost all the teams and mons stayed the same, there wasn't big changes on the sets used besides some teras in particular (unlike what we are seeing with Glowking running the dark resist berry to stop Valiant) while it just made some of the top mons like Valiant, Gholdengo or Gambit stronger.
I think the major difference is that valliant can't run away with the game the same way volcarona can if it's given two or more turns to set up (the turn it teras, and then the next turn).
 
I think personally if we had to wait for the WCOP to be over until the Tera Suspect, that easily gives us a month for a Kingambit suspect test we can have because I know without a doubt there's enough community support for Kingambit to be tested. So yeah Kingambit (should) be next.

Definitely needs to be tested. With or without Tera, this thing needs to go! :P
 
I don't understand how anyone could think Gambit would be remotely overpowered without Tera. Escaping it's unfortunate type weaknesses at a moment's notice is what makes it so powerful.
 
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