honestly i can believe that; those are significant losses, but i just dont wanna underestimate the goat. i think if he's not S or S- he'll be high A. anything below that seems unlikely to me.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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How does dire claw calculate status after something is slept? If it rolls a sleep again (1/2)*(1/3) does it proc and fail? Sneasler seems to introduce a lot of dice rolls, I can't think of a 50% chance on any move this reliable before.
sleep clause shouldn't affect the secondary effect chance, so i believe it's ~17% poison and ~17% paralysis once one opposing pokemon is asleep. if nothing is asleep, it's ~17% poison, ~17% paralysis, ~17% sleep. i could be wrong though, haven't tested it personally
cheem pow might get banned by mid to late june so it might drop in june jus wait for meta to grow
Heatran being in metagame's where hazard removal is mediocre is not a new phenomenon. Heatran facing Pokémon with Ground coverage is not a new phenomenon. The only real pain is that Heatran has lost Toxic, and while that sucks, Heatran can swap that out with Stealth Rock, Protect, Will O Wisp. Counting out Heatran when almost nothing itself changed for it while it is a fantastic abuser of Tera is just bad business.
A guide for any and all Toxic Lovers that need help
Hello people, its me 1LDK, and something I have been noticing is how people got too used to spam Toxic, now, it is understandable why, Toxic is a great move that serves as a ticking timer for most mons, can serve as a stall move, a wall breaker move, a pressure move, a "I hate all creatures in earth great and small" Darkseid rizz move, and a lot of etc. But things change, time changes, and with the new HOME meta, you will see that the friends you have made in previous gens have "changed" but don't worry, you have to look at the things the bright way and ask "WW1D" which means "What would 1LDK do", so lets dive in some movepools that need some support shall we?
So let's look at one example, look at this, it's Heatran!
[audible heatran noises]
Who doesn't love an OU titan that can sponge several special hits and is able to hit back with its spicy moves, unfortunately, losing toxic it means it can no longer trap as efficiently with Magma Storm! This is a problem! A problem that we are gonna solve together!, so the first thing you wanna do is to imagine the set, okay?
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
Great job! Now, I know that you want to automatically put Toxic, but remember, we are not in gen 8 anymore, this is gen 9, and before you wanna cry and curse at gamefreak for all their mistakes in the past 30 years, let's see the steps to see on how we fill this hole
You might see something barren and empty at first, but good trainers always want to fill niches and found opportunities to surprise the opponent for some spicy gameplay, so let see some candidates that have volunteered themselves to show
Stealth Rock: Good ol rocky is here to fill the land with its pointy rocks of chaos! heatran is a good user of the move because there's little to be afraid of thanks to the move removal of various spinners and defoggers, and tera grass helps you against the elephant Great Tusk, just hope he doesn't like eating grass!
Flash Cannon: Look at that, a shiny beam of light, it's shiny, it's cool, and it hits fairies! Specially some new pesky additions like Enamorus, and the Iron Valiant who is currently outside your door and wants to sell children's blood in the form of strawberry juice, tell him that you are not interested and blast him away with your superpowers!
Power Gem: Have you ever tried to shoot a bird? You will find that these pesky flying bugs are truly sneaky, capable to escape even Magma Storms with U-turns!, and while not all birds are created equal, some of them might find it easier to escape your wrath, so let's just hit them with rocks! They are painful, smack them down and make them suffer more!
Tera Blast: Oh man, looks like you have some great enthusiasms in taking full use of your mutations, grass is a powerful type that hits waters, grounds and discord mods for super effective damage! Try it on your local fauna, it is specially funny when it's raining and the fishes want to stretch their legs, drive them to extinction!
Will-o-Wisp: Some people just love Halloween, and they want to express this whimsical day with everyone, trick and treat? More like burn and die, watch at all of them losing chip health, combine this with taunt and magma storm to create some high burning fun for everyone
See? There's plenty of option, but I know what you're thinking! "1LDK! Not everyone has the same move pool as him, what about something like Lando" Well, I'm glad you ask, let's see what we have
Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
Looks like we have a similar problem here, a bigger one than before! But don't worry, remember to think with optimism and creativity, and look at the move pool and think what this would do for you!
Smack Down / Stone Edge: Just what we needed, more options to deal with birds, one is a sniper rifle that guaranteed that flying mon is going down, while the latter is an SMG that deletes him, aim properly!
U-Turn: looks like you found yourself the ability to bounce off the walls and help your teammates get in with you, everything is more fun if done with friends, and friends sometimes helps you to deal with what you have in front, remember, asking for help is not a sign of weakness, but dying is!
Swords Dance: Violence
Substitute: Speaking of friends, you seem to have none! Don't worry, you can just buy one of our stuffies at Pokemazon dot com. And enjoy this new friend who will protect you from danger, don't let it take too much, or it will crumble into pieces! And that will cost you money and emotional damage!
Fly: You're finally flying! One of the greatest dreams of men, and you are in the skies, ready to smack the enemy from above, don't get too exited kid, many people have eyes and will probably see you coming a mile away, but don't let that stop the fun
Conclusion:
There are a lot more options that we haven't talked about in this guide, and more mons to see, but that's where your job starts, so remember to be creative, change items, see spreads, moves and the most important thing is to have fun in the process!
Thank you for checking this guide, remember to check out other guides such as "How to cope when your heat sets fail" and "I just got 6-0 by stall, how do I avoid into the realm of self-destructive behavior" buy these 3 together at $39.99 dollar combo, see you all in the next guide, byeee!
Iron Treads can actually deal with a lot of threats in the current metagame. I’ve shown interest in this set:
0/252/0/0-/4/252+
Expert Belt
-Earthquake
-Knock Off
-Rapid Spin/Ice Spinner
-Iron Head
0/252/0/0-/4/252+
Expert Belt
-Earthquake
-Knock Off
-Rapid Spin/Ice Spinner
-Iron Head
Expert belt actually works well as it puts many mons, such as Magearna, Regieleki, Gholdengo, and Chien Pao into K.O. range, and can fool your opponent into thinking you’re choice locked.
So I’ve been watching a lot of OU games..
And there’s even been an eleki with a Tera type magnezone haha. This is actually fun to watch, but eleki is single-handedly blotting out the sun for all the other fast sweeper types like mega Weavile lol.
hyper fast pivot with high power STAB hits different
edit:
I didn’t expect landorus-t to immediately be this popular, thought the competition with tusk would be closer
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ok so leki is obscene, but I have devised a *check* to it that is pretty threatening in its own right and isn't complete dead weight
presenting:
Thundy (Thundurus-Therian) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 48 SpD / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast
So the theory is that Thundy has volt absorb and as such can switch in on an electric move, but then you can tera steel and you avoid the 3hko from tera blast with lefties and you can sub because you're slow on this set.
Relevant Calc™: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast vs. 40 HP / 48 SpD Tera Steel Thundurus-Therian: 102-120 (33 - 38.8%) -- 5.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So obviously this is dogshit but I think it's funny
(p.s. please make it a little easier to get sprites it's a little annoying to inspect element for the source link)
So far eleki and luna seem to be living up to the hype, maybe the meta will adapt like it did to WW (although WW needed a meh team style to really go crazy, while luna also needs that TR seems much more consistent with setters like gear and glowking and a bunch of slow powerful attackers) but i struggle to see what *optimal* stuff can actually check these two.
Really? I think Lando great but I'm surprised you rank it that high. In your opinion what makes it so good?
early meta it’s the one that can position in your eleki/mag/urshifu with its u turns
this will change when we lose those S ranked threats lol. But the value of the positioning tool is big!
ting Lu is great against a lot of things,
iron Treads is somehow looking more useful than tusk
Tusk is last while Iron Treads is above both it and Ursalana. Do I even need to say anything?
serious, in the current meta tusk has a hard time against the new strong threats, or maybe it’s the prevalence of them due to new toy syndrome
you have urshifu, magearna, eleki, the dead fish, etc
Maybe this will change as the meta adapts?
this is still early days, meta is learning, who knows what will happen.
I do kinda agree. Tusk isn't S tier right now, at least it feels so. especially with a ton of fresh and good checks to its offensive sets, while defensive ones feel far too passive ATM.
read this post and just watched this game:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1874350236
1. Correct predicts on a tusk, and uses Tera water to Ko
2. loses only because of the unexpected Tera electric from gholdengo, AND the eleki user didn’t volt switch on that turn.
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Another game:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1874356570
Tera water in rain to KO the treads, and basically their game to lose from there.
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Bro contrary to what a lot of people said, without LR Basculegion is just slower floatzel with secondary ghost typing but lacking ghost stab
And more bulk
I think there should be a discussion on Sleep Clause.
Smogon is a defacto authority on Competitive Pokemon and primarily makes rules for Cart play. Most of Smogon uses Simulators to play on, but they are simulators of what is possible on the official cartridge without modding your game. This is why the main tier of OU only bans Pokemon, abilities, items, and moves, instead of directly changing attributes of those thing, like say have the move Last Respects only gain 20 BP for each fainted Pokemon, or subtract 15 SpA/Spe from Flutter Mane for balancing the game.
There is almost nothing that you can’t do on Cartridge that you can do on the main Simulator Smogon uses being Pokemon Showdown. Almost that is.
For decades, one quirk of the Sim is the implementation of 2 clauses, being Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause for older Gens. There are also less important stuff like patching game break bugs for Gen 1 and VGC timer stuff, but that is less important. Here we’ll look at Sleep Clause because of a new addition in Pokemon, the move Dire Claw.
Sleep is a particularly powerful status condidtion that has existed since Generation 1. When inflicted, your Pokemon is completely unable to do anything for a set amount of turns without specifical moves like Sleep Talk or Snore. Of course, with how insanely busted such a mechanic is in game to sleep everything on your opponent’s team, Sleep Clause was implemented. Here is where Simulators deviate form Cart play. On simulators, all attempts to put a Pokemon to sleep after you have put something to sleep results in the sleep failing and the Pokemon remaining wide awake. On Cartridge however, the game is forfeit if you put asleep a second Pokemon.
For Gens 1-4, this is a non-issue since all you have to do is not click a sleep move after putting something to sleep. In Gen 5, Meloetta was introduced with the move Relic Song. This was the first attacking move that could put you to sleep, and with the ability Serene Grace had a 20% chance to put you to sleep. However this move sucked shit because it was weak and forced you to change from a bulk special attacker to a fast physical attacker. So no one used it on Meloetta or Smeargle since they had better options. We also get Secret Power (while Grassy Terrain was up), G-Max Befuddle, and G-Max Snooze (but only Yawn effect) could put you to sleep in an online battle. None of these ended up being really important because of distribution and requirements. You’d almost never see them be used at all on Cart with Smogon rules.
Fastforward to end of May in 2023, OU is now able to use the new move introduced in PLA called Dire Claw. It’s an attacking poison move that can induce Sleep and not require gimmicks. No switching to counterintuitive forms. No setting up Grassy Terrain. No Gigantamaxing 2 specific Pokemon. While Dire Claw is exclusive to 1 Pokemon, it’s on an amazing Pokemon that’s fast, strong, has good resistances, and complements its STAB Dire Claw with STAB Close Combat. It’s a move that’s actually viable to use and isn’t banned due to mechanic being banned. It’s be extremely common to find someone using Sneasler and use Dire Claw. The importance of this is that Realistic games on Cart will be WILDLY different from games on Simulator. It’s not just someone dicking around with Grassy Terrain and Secret Power, or using Relic Song on Meloetta. It has real metagame implications. Dire Claw on Simulator is now still spammable as ever because any time 1/6th chance of sleep occuring happens, it will simply just deal damage and nothing else. But on Cart, as soon as you put something to sleep, you risk forfeiting the game each time you click Dire Claw. Tons of tournament games now can not be replicated on cartridge now because any time you would have put something to sleep, sleep clause just steps in to save you from yourself. Decisions you made for that tournament game now are very different, including the teambuilding part too. On cart, you’d have to consider that Dire Claw can’t be spammed without risking a forfeit, so you also know that on Cart, Sneasler is less likely to be Banded. You know that Sneasler is likely not going to be paired with a Sleep inducer like Spore Amoongus or Spore Breloom. Dire Claw in conjunction with Sleep Clause creates a drastically different meta when played on Cart and Similator.
Now most people reading this play on Sim and wonder why they should care. To answer that, it’s because Showdown is supposed to be a simulation and Smogon prides itself about still keeping an eye out for cart players. If they aren’t cart accurate for everything, why bothing being accurate in other places? Why not slightly tweak Pokemon stats to balance the game? Or tweak RNG so it’s bit more fair or let you read what will happen next?
Smogon has largely ignored this issue because it would be rare to see happen on Ladder and never happened in a serious tournament outside of Gen 1/2. It’s about time they re-evaluate Sleep Clause so that it can be cartridge accurate. How Sleep Clause would change, that would have to be decided. Whether Sleep inducing moves get banned or you’re unable to use a sleep inducing move what so ever, you should be able to replicate it on cart. Anything else is just Smogon staff admitting that they don’t care about cart players, and otherwise justifies having balance patches.
I am curious how other people think, as I have been obsessed with Dire Claw, which was probably concieved on Jekyll Island in 1910.
Smogon is a defacto authority on Competitive Pokemon and primarily makes rules for Cart play. Most of Smogon uses Simulators to play on, but they are simulators of what is possible on the official cartridge without modding your game. This is why the main tier of OU only bans Pokemon, abilities, items, and moves, instead of directly changing attributes of those thing, like say have the move Last Respects only gain 20 BP for each fainted Pokemon, or subtract 15 SpA/Spe from Flutter Mane for balancing the game.
There is almost nothing that you can’t do on Cartridge that you can do on the main Simulator Smogon uses being Pokemon Showdown. Almost that is.
For decades, one quirk of the Sim is the implementation of 2 clauses, being Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause for older Gens. There are also less important stuff like patching game break bugs for Gen 1 and VGC timer stuff, but that is less important. Here we’ll look at Sleep Clause because of a new addition in Pokemon, the move Dire Claw.
Sleep is a particularly powerful status condidtion that has existed since Generation 1. When inflicted, your Pokemon is completely unable to do anything for a set amount of turns without specifical moves like Sleep Talk or Snore. Of course, with how insanely busted such a mechanic is in game to sleep everything on your opponent’s team, Sleep Clause was implemented. Here is where Simulators deviate form Cart play. On simulators, all attempts to put a Pokemon to sleep after you have put something to sleep results in the sleep failing and the Pokemon remaining wide awake. On Cartridge however, the game is forfeit if you put asleep a second Pokemon.
For Gens 1-4, this is a non-issue since all you have to do is not click a sleep move after putting something to sleep. In Gen 5, Meloetta was introduced with the move Relic Song. This was the first attacking move that could put you to sleep, and with the ability Serene Grace had a 20% chance to put you to sleep. However this move sucked shit because it was weak and forced you to change from a bulk special attacker to a fast physical attacker. So no one used it on Meloetta or Smeargle since they had better options. We also get Secret Power (while Grassy Terrain was up), G-Max Befuddle, and G-Max Snooze (but only Yawn effect) could put you to sleep in an online battle. None of these ended up being really important because of distribution and requirements. You’d almost never see them be used at all on Cart with Smogon rules.
Fastforward to end of May in 2023, OU is now able to use the new move introduced in PLA called Dire Claw. It’s an attacking poison move that can induce Sleep and not require gimmicks. No switching to counterintuitive forms. No setting up Grassy Terrain. No Gigantamaxing 2 specific Pokemon. While Dire Claw is exclusive to 1 Pokemon, it’s on an amazing Pokemon that’s fast, strong, has good resistances, and complements its STAB Dire Claw with STAB Close Combat. It’s a move that’s actually viable to use and isn’t banned due to mechanic being banned. It’s be extremely common to find someone using Sneasler and use Dire Claw. The importance of this is that Realistic games on Cart will be WILDLY different from games on Simulator. It’s not just someone dicking around with Grassy Terrain and Secret Power, or using Relic Song on Meloetta. It has real metagame implications. Dire Claw on Simulator is now still spammable as ever because any time 1/6th chance of sleep occuring happens, it will simply just deal damage and nothing else. But on Cart, as soon as you put something to sleep, you risk forfeiting the game each time you click Dire Claw. Tons of tournament games now can not be replicated on cartridge now because any time you would have put something to sleep, sleep clause just steps in to save you from yourself. Decisions you made for that tournament game now are very different, including the teambuilding part too. On cart, you’d have to consider that Dire Claw can’t be spammed without risking a forfeit, so you also know that on Cart, Sneasler is less likely to be Banded. You know that Sneasler is likely not going to be paired with a Sleep inducer like Spore Amoongus or Spore Breloom. Dire Claw in conjunction with Sleep Clause creates a drastically different meta when played on Cart and Similator.
Now most people reading this play on Sim and wonder why they should care. To answer that, it’s because Showdown is supposed to be a simulation and Smogon prides itself about still keeping an eye out for cart players. If they aren’t cart accurate for everything, why bothing being accurate in other places? Why not slightly tweak Pokemon stats to balance the game? Or tweak RNG so it’s bit more fair or let you read what will happen next?
Smogon has largely ignored this issue because it would be rare to see happen on Ladder and never happened in a serious tournament outside of Gen 1/2. It’s about time they re-evaluate Sleep Clause so that it can be cartridge accurate. How Sleep Clause would change, that would have to be decided. Whether Sleep inducing moves get banned or you’re unable to use a sleep inducing move what so ever, you should be able to replicate it on cart. Anything else is just Smogon staff admitting that they don’t care about cart players, and otherwise justifies having balance patches.
I am curious how other people think, as I have been obsessed with Dire Claw, which was probably concieved on Jekyll Island in 1910.
And Optional adaptability
disagree, tusk is still the best ground and is easier to put on a team than lando due to spin, and with hsamurott and kleavor in the meta spinning is extra valuable. Lando is still amazing, CB with terablast has so much value
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