Ferrothorn isn’t coming in the DLC (I’m so fucking sad). I’ll be posting a list soon about all relevant Pokémon coming in the DLC.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Right, that's why I pointed out that Band Breloom was not ideal as your Gambit check, but worth calling out for folks desperately searching for something that works. Spore Breloom with Sash or Loaded Dice puts in work against anything that's not Tera Flying.
Tera preview would help a lot for what is the biggest complain about it, having the vote to be an outright ban-no ban would be unfair for the anti-tera side because that 100% would lead to no restriction at all, many pro-tera which are open to a restriction would vote for something like preview but won't vote for ban so in a ban-dnb situation the anti-tera side is going to lose.
The issue with the top mons is that they have a crazy level of adaptation, Gambit gets banned? Tusk is still the best hazard control in the tier and has an amazing stab combo so now that doesn't need to run defensive sets that often so can run max speed to be more consistent against Gholdengo and just do more damage with CC and HR, the same with Valiant, if Gambit gets banned then it might just drop the fighting move from its sets and use other coverage. Almost any ban would make the top mons better because they would have a thing less to worry about and optimize their sets for the rest of the tier, which might result in them being more oppressive for the rest of the mons since they became stronger.
Sorry for double posting, but the council members have said that they don't want spoilers about dlcs in this thread, especially about unconfirmed stuff, so you should post it in the spoiler/leaks thread instead.
I would say if hasn't been confirmed I wouldn't post it here because that might be considered rumors / spoilers
As Mr. E mentioned, SV feels very much like BW2. A drastic increase in the power level with seemingly broken options that the playerbase calling for suspect tests but couldn’t go through with it due to the domino effect they might have if banned.
Tusk is the most important Pokemon in the metagame with Gambit being a close second. Tusk never gets discussed when it comes to suspects but Gambit has very good reasons to support a suspect test for it.
Gambit’s bulk, Sucker Punch, and raw power with Supreme Overlord makes it difficult to stop. Add to the fact that Tera can either push its strength to obscene levels or make it harder to check. For reference, even resists might fall to a Tera Dark Sucker Punch.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 345-407 (119.3 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasler: 390-459 (129.5 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Fragile resists but my point still stands.
We all know Kingambit is sus but I’m not sure if we can go through with banning it because of the domino effect that was previously mentioned.
Gambit is a ghost check that also keeps offensive teams in check with priority Sucker Punch and breaks holes with its raw dmg output. Take away the mustached king and suddenly ghosts and offensive teams become much harder to handle consistently.
You can argue that pokemon like Valiant, Bax, and Garg don’t have as much importance and could be removed to balance the meta, but is that the right move or was the culprit Tera this whole time?
carbonlifeform made an interesting point about how the meta threats were designed to have intentional flaws to balance their strong feats. Gambit is 4x weak to Fighting and reliant on Sucker Punch 50/50s vs faster targets, Garg has a terrible defensive typing, Bax is weak to rocks, Ghold has exploitable weaknesses to Dark n’ Ground and average stats outside of SpA.
Even Pokemon that were banned had this trait. Espa had a mediocre offensive typing and old gen staple Volc was balanced by its infamous 4x rock weakness. Tera pushed these two, possibly more over the edge and will likely result in a snowball effect of suspect tests and bans.
Regardless if you think Tera is a fun mechanic or not, if we are to ensure a healthier metagame moving forward without resorting to more mons being banned due to a mechanic pushing them over the edge, then we have to take action on Tera. Whether its restricting it or banning it outright.
Even if Tera is gone, SV OU will still have its own identity. Gen 9 brought in several new changes and brand new metagame staples. Less distribution of Toxic, Knock Off, and Defog combined with the nerf to recovery moves as a way to nerf defensive Pokemon. An increase of spikes and limited hazard removal encouraging more aggressive plays. People need to realize that we do not need a generational gimmick to make each Gen unique. The evidence is in Gens 1-5.
Gen 1: Dominance of Normal and Psychic types. Higher crit chances, no items, special as one stat.
Gen 2: Dominance of Snorlax, introduction of items, spikes, and the Dark/Steel typing, Sleep Talk sets.
Gen 3: Dominance of Ttar, introduction of weather, abilities, Band and natures. Sand Spikes, Dragon Dance sweepers, Calm Mind sweepers, rise of Baton Pass.
Gen 4: The Physical/Special split, Rocks, the Lead Metagame, Clefable balance, U-Turn, Specs, LO, and Scarf introduced.
Gen 5: Power Creep, Weather Wars, Hidden Abilities, Dominance of Magic Guard Psychics, Scald, Dragmag.
Even Post-DS era metas have their own identity outside of their generational gimmicks.
Gen 6: Introduction of the Fairy Type, buffed Defog and Knock Off, nerfed Weather and Steel Types, dominance of Screens Offense.
Gen 7: Tapus, UBs, Ash Gren, Mag, Pex, nerfs to Burn, Resurgence of Rain, Increased Defog distribution, Dominance of Offense and Fat.
Gen 8: Dex Cut, Boots, Melmetal, Rilla, Pult, Dominance of Regen cores, Buffed Teleport, Knock Off Spam.
Tusk is the most important Pokemon in the metagame with Gambit being a close second. Tusk never gets discussed when it comes to suspects but Gambit has very good reasons to support a suspect test for it.
Gambit’s bulk, Sucker Punch, and raw power with Supreme Overlord makes it difficult to stop. Add to the fact that Tera can either push its strength to obscene levels or make it harder to check. For reference, even resists might fall to a Tera Dark Sucker Punch.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 345-407 (119.3 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasler: 390-459 (129.5 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Fragile resists but my point still stands.
We all know Kingambit is sus but I’m not sure if we can go through with banning it because of the domino effect that was previously mentioned.
Gambit is a ghost check that also keeps offensive teams in check with priority Sucker Punch and breaks holes with its raw dmg output. Take away the mustached king and suddenly ghosts and offensive teams become much harder to handle consistently.
You can argue that pokemon like Valiant, Bax, and Garg don’t have as much importance and could be removed to balance the meta, but is that the right move or was the culprit Tera this whole time?
carbonlifeform made an interesting point about how the meta threats were designed to have intentional flaws to balance their strong feats. Gambit is 4x weak to Fighting and reliant on Sucker Punch 50/50s vs faster targets, Garg has a terrible defensive typing, Bax is weak to rocks, Ghold has exploitable weaknesses to Dark n’ Ground and average stats outside of SpA.
Even Pokemon that were banned had this trait. Espa had a mediocre offensive typing and old gen staple Volc was balanced by its infamous 4x rock weakness. Tera pushed these two, possibly more over the edge and will likely result in a snowball effect of suspect tests and bans.
Regardless if you think Tera is a fun mechanic or not, if we are to ensure a healthier metagame moving forward without resorting to more mons being banned due to a mechanic pushing them over the edge, then we have to take action on Tera. Whether its restricting it or banning it outright.
Even if Tera is gone, SV OU will still have its own identity. Gen 9 brought in several new changes and brand new metagame staples. Less distribution of Toxic, Knock Off, and Defog combined with the nerf to recovery moves as a way to nerf defensive Pokemon. An increase of spikes and limited hazard removal encouraging more aggressive plays. People need to realize that we do not need a generational gimmick to make each Gen unique. The evidence is in Gens 1-5.
Gen 1: Dominance of Normal and Psychic types. Higher crit chances, no items, special as one stat.
Gen 2: Dominance of Snorlax, introduction of items, spikes, and the Dark/Steel typing, Sleep Talk sets.
Gen 3: Dominance of Ttar, introduction of weather, abilities, Band and natures. Sand Spikes, Dragon Dance sweepers, Calm Mind sweepers, rise of Baton Pass.
Gen 4: The Physical/Special split, Rocks, the Lead Metagame, Clefable balance, U-Turn, Specs, LO, and Scarf introduced.
Gen 5: Power Creep, Weather Wars, Hidden Abilities, Dominance of Magic Guard Psychics, Scald, Dragmag.
Even Post-DS era metas have their own identity outside of their generational gimmicks.
Gen 6: Introduction of the Fairy Type, buffed Defog and Knock Off, nerfed Weather and Steel Types, dominance of Screens Offense.
Gen 7: Tapus, UBs, Ash Gren, Mag, Pex, nerfs to Burn, Resurgence of Rain, Increased Defog distribution, Dominance of Offense and Fat.
Gen 8: Dex Cut, Boots, Melmetal, Rilla, Pult, Dominance of Regen cores, Buffed Teleport, Knock Off Spam.
Tera remains unrestricted because the pro-ban voices were so loud, that a number of people whose preferences went "Preview > No Action > Ban" thought that voting for any action meant voting for a ban, so they voted strategically for no action. Removing the option for tera preview, and leaving it a simple ban/no ban, will get anyone holding that preference to vote 'no ban' again.
Then the crowd that hates tera will whine and gnash their teeth and complain. Tera preview isn't a compromise from the people who like terastalization, because the best evidence we have indicates that a simple yes/no vote will keep the mechanic.
Oh my bad
Sorry to double post, but a half-hour of no posts seems reasonable to post again. I was going to make a post about my controversial opinions, but this one was so long I made it a stand-alone. You ready?
Psychic is bad typing. The type has some good moves to its name, but Psychic sucks as a type when you look at the big picture. Defensively, Psychic is Ghost, but:
-Instead of resisting Bug, it’s weak to it
-Instead of resisting Poison, it’s neutral to it
-Instead of being immune to Fighting, it resists it
-Instead of being neutral to Psychic, it resists it
When a Pokémon has Psychic typing instead of Ghost, it trades two resistances and an immunity for a weakness and two new resistances. Sounds bad? It gets worse offensively.
Psychic hits two types super effectively: Fighting and Poison. While being one of the only types to hit Poison is great, hitting Fighting is kinda meh. Psychic is meanwhile resisted by itself and Steel. So Steel is a problem, but resisting itself doesn’t really mean anything. So Psychic isn’t that bad… right?
Dark type.
Dark type is immune to Psychic type.
Dark is one of the most prominent types in recent generations, and to have mons like Kingambit completely invulnerable to your attacks is Psychic’s final nail in the coffin.
Overall, Psychic type is defensively a weaker Ghost type, and a middling offensive type. So they aren’t exactly butchered by their type the same way an Ice type would be. But whenever I see a new Psychic type, I can only think about the potential if it were a Ghost type.
Psychic is bad typing. The type has some good moves to its name, but Psychic sucks as a type when you look at the big picture. Defensively, Psychic is Ghost, but:
-Instead of resisting Bug, it’s weak to it
-Instead of resisting Poison, it’s neutral to it
-Instead of being immune to Fighting, it resists it
-Instead of being neutral to Psychic, it resists it
When a Pokémon has Psychic typing instead of Ghost, it trades two resistances and an immunity for a weakness and two new resistances. Sounds bad? It gets worse offensively.
Psychic hits two types super effectively: Fighting and Poison. While being one of the only types to hit Poison is great, hitting Fighting is kinda meh. Psychic is meanwhile resisted by itself and Steel. So Steel is a problem, but resisting itself doesn’t really mean anything. So Psychic isn’t that bad… right?
Dark type.
Dark type is immune to Psychic type.
Dark is one of the most prominent types in recent generations, and to have mons like Kingambit completely invulnerable to your attacks is Psychic’s final nail in the coffin.
Overall, Psychic type is defensively a weaker Ghost type, and a middling offensive type. So they aren’t exactly butchered by their type the same way an Ice type would be. But whenever I see a new Psychic type, I can only think about the potential if it were a Ghost type.
Why are you so eager to silence the part of the community that wants to try Tera Preview? Isn't it more transparent and democratic to allow this possibility to be voted on which seems to have a lot of support? You were somebody dissatisfied with the volcarona quickban in part bc it seemed like the community's will was ignored, but when it suits your opinions, you'll happily ignore the community!I’ll agree that this meta is in a weird state atm. In order to help improve the tier going forward, what I would suggest is:
For those of you that think that Tera should be retested, I don’t have a problem with that. What I do have a problem is the suggestion of Tera Restrictions. Shoutouts to the NDOU Council: View attachment 529826
- Retest Volcarona <-I just wanna protest
- Suspect Test Kingambit <-Seriously fuck this guy
- Suspect Test Sneasler <-Dire Claw is unskilled and allows Sneasler to cheese pass its C&C
- Suspect Test Garganacl <-Salt Cure, Purifying Salt. Yeah, fuck this thing too
While National Dex has nothing to do with the tier itself, I just wanted to point out that they are handling it the right way. When it comes to Tera, you keep it as it is, or you ban it as a whole. There is no in-betweens. So, please stop suggesting Open Tera Previews or Restricting Tera to one Pokémon. It doesn’t solve anything. You’re still playing 50/50 games if the Pokémon is gonna Tera or not, further more it still gets its adaptability or triple stab boosts thanks to Tera along with its new typing. So I don’t understand how these restrictions help fix the problem with Tera. Me personally, I don’t have a problem with the mechanic, I think it’s fine just the way it is. Hopefully after the suspect test of, we can start making moves for a more fun and healthy meta. Of course with Tera.
And to be clear, this is your opinion. Whether or not tera preview "solves anything" is purely speculation as we've yet to see it play out. If voters want to try out preview then let them vote for it.
I've talked to a few of those voters who now regret voting that way. Next time, vote for what you believe in and accept the result for what it is
.The best evidence we have is over 6 months old. We can't really speak on the numbers of how people feel about tera right now and how a vote would go, so I hope the next survey will give us some current data.
I just don't understand why it is so complicated
You have the current state (Tera available)
And it is very controversial, you have people defending it or arguing to ban it. It's full of chaos, every day it's the same pages and pages of tera discussion. So you have that scenario that clearly isn't working.
And then you have the Tera preview option. That can be tested anytime, get positive/negative results, and after those results/opinions will be either:
a) Approved and will replace the current chaotic scenario
b) Be disregarded, because it doesn't really fix tera. BUT, at least it was tested and tried.
So at least in my eyes, the solution is sky clear: Test Tera Preview. Just do it. You lose nothing.
You have the current state (Tera available)
And it is very controversial, you have people defending it or arguing to ban it. It's full of chaos, every day it's the same pages and pages of tera discussion. So you have that scenario that clearly isn't working.
And then you have the Tera preview option. That can be tested anytime, get positive/negative results, and after those results/opinions will be either:
a) Approved and will replace the current chaotic scenario
b) Be disregarded, because it doesn't really fix tera. BUT, at least it was tested and tried.
So at least in my eyes, the solution is sky clear: Test Tera Preview. Just do it. You lose nothing.
tera preview feels terrible, is like putting team preview in rby or declare the pokemon u will gigantimax
is something not intended in the game, different from sleep clause that feels innatural even if still a lot better than unbanning pokemon at random like council hoping to fix the meta
FOR ME tera should be suspect tested and totally banned, is too strong: volc was the strongest mon in the tier --> ban --> now is gambit ---> u ban gambit there will be a new broken mon thanks to tera
tera is so good, it makes really hard revenge kill a pokemon, it gives coverage, immunities and is a the same time, an hidden power (stabbed) both physical and special
i remember one time there was a special tier with stealth rocks banned: a good playtest can be ou with tera banned, a totally separated ladder
is something not intended in the game, different from sleep clause that feels innatural even if still a lot better than unbanning pokemon at random like council hoping to fix the meta
FOR ME tera should be suspect tested and totally banned, is too strong: volc was the strongest mon in the tier --> ban --> now is gambit ---> u ban gambit there will be a new broken mon thanks to tera
tera is so good, it makes really hard revenge kill a pokemon, it gives coverage, immunities and is a the same time, an hidden power (stabbed) both physical and special
i remember one time there was a special tier with stealth rocks banned: a good playtest can be ou with tera banned, a totally separated ladder
I think a big concern over calls to test tera preview/no tera on a separate ladder (or testing them by implementing them on the main ladder with no alternative ladder) is that there won't be enough time to see a meta develop and truly settle during the suspect window. It can take months for things to properly settle in a new metagame (see: it took up until basically home released for the pre-home SV meta to at least somewhat stabilize), especially as new broken threats emerge that tilt the way tera preview/no tera is perceived. Given that we won't have a suspect/test ladder that lasts for literally months, and given that having a permanent separate ladder has been shot down in the past, it doesn't seem like it'd accomplish much to try to test either with even an extended timeframe for a suspect. It's best to just look at the meta as it is now, and decide based off of that.
FWIW, either ban or restrict tera in some way. I'm not gonna pretend that I know the best way to handle it, but it needs to be handled.
FWIW, either ban or restrict tera in some way. I'm not gonna pretend that I know the best way to handle it, but it needs to be handled.
I believe Tera Preview would solve a lot of issues. Namely, Volcarona would be OU, but besides the point: tera preview removes the shock element of tera, only allowing for skill expression to exist. VGC's open team sheet is a perfect example of this, and many VGC players prefer this format in lieu of their old one.
By having the knowledge of what a Pokemon can terasilize into, it creates an opportunity to prepare & adapt. Afterwards, abusers should be fewer and easier to ban on their own merits.
I want to add that generational mechanics are fun, and allow the game to feel unique from its previous edition. I think tera preview will allow the fun factor of tera to exist, without the broken components (having to prepare for too many possibilities)
By having the knowledge of what a Pokemon can terasilize into, it creates an opportunity to prepare & adapt. Afterwards, abusers should be fewer and easier to ban on their own merits.
I want to add that generational mechanics are fun, and allow the game to feel unique from its previous edition. I think tera preview will allow the fun factor of tera to exist, without the broken components (having to prepare for too many possibilities)
I hate it when the bishop just smells my misshap and instantly deletes half the board
I'd also like to add that, at this exact moment the mon we're considering "the #1 Tera threat" is also tearing up ND. Because it has 135+ base attack, 80 BP stab priority, and an absolutely absurd endgame ability.
While it's definitely true that there will be a new "next best mon", it definitely feels like Kingambit managed to prostrate itself well enough to get passed over more than once.
This bastard isn't the "new next best" - it just tricked us into thinking it wasn't a god.
While it's definitely true that there will be a new "next best mon", it definitely feels like Kingambit managed to prostrate itself well enough to get passed over more than once.
This bastard isn't the "new next best" - it just tricked us into thinking it wasn't a god.
I appreciate you clarifying my post as my opinion. Cause that's exactly what it was, my opinion. And yes, due to the community's support for Tera restrictions, is the reason why I gave my opinion on the matter. Whatever decision the council decide on how to go about the suspect test, I'll support the results, voted on by the community. :)
Appreciate you linking my other post on Volcarona, hopefully I get more impressions.
I want to once again bring up that Great Tusk does not keep the hazards away, it isn't even that good of removal, it's just one of the only Pokemon you can feasibly run that has removal.
We need to do something about hazards and Tusks is not enough.
My proposal on how Tera should be conducted suspect wise is something like this:
Two Stage Process.
1. Restriction Phase
This would be a shorter Suspect Test that decides between No Restriction, and Restriction. Ban is not yet an option, as to not split voters within an Action-oriented mindset.
The council would draft up 1-? ideas for feasible restrictions, and the vote will include the person's restriction vote of choice.
Why?:
1x. I feel that having more than one restriction is very close to a complex ban, and should be avoided.
2x. It gets very complicated if we assume several restrictions are on the table.
3x. We all know Tera Preview will win anyways.
After this short Suspect Test for restriction only, this will lead to a revisit within a few weeks for:
2. Ban Phase
Now that people have played with this restriction, now we have a second binary vote on if the mechanic should be banned or not, standard fare.
Overall time: Somewhere between 1-2 months, with the majority of this being time between the initial Restriction Phase. However, if the Restriction Phase ends in no restriction, we simply go straight to the second phase, and start the second Suspect Test.
Two Stage Process.
1. Restriction Phase
This would be a shorter Suspect Test that decides between No Restriction, and Restriction. Ban is not yet an option, as to not split voters within an Action-oriented mindset.
The council would draft up 1-? ideas for feasible restrictions, and the vote will include the person's restriction vote of choice.
Why?:
1x. I feel that having more than one restriction is very close to a complex ban, and should be avoided.
2x. It gets very complicated if we assume several restrictions are on the table.
3x. We all know Tera Preview will win anyways.
After this short Suspect Test for restriction only, this will lead to a revisit within a few weeks for:
2. Ban Phase
Now that people have played with this restriction, now we have a second binary vote on if the mechanic should be banned or not, standard fare.
Overall time: Somewhere between 1-2 months, with the majority of this being time between the initial Restriction Phase. However, if the Restriction Phase ends in no restriction, we simply go straight to the second phase, and start the second Suspect Test.
Felt like this but with Snow Cloak and Sand Veil being banned. They’re banned now and were in Gen 5, but I always assumed they were just banned by default because of Evasion Clause.
Not really disagreeing with the core of this post (I am pretty netural on tera preview, I do think it's better than the current state of things for sure), but I don't really buy that Volcarona would be OU if we had tera preview, it's not just the tera surprise factor that makes Volcarona busted, but also the fact that, unless you load your team with like, 4 or 5 Volcarona checks, you will always lose to a specifc Volcarona set and there's not much you can do to stop that.
Delibird Heart it happened
It's joever
Just ban non-STAB Tera. Everything (aside from Chien Pao) that Tera has broken was using non-STAB. The big problem with Tera is the guessing game, so why not just ban non-STAB? The damage boost is just a buff to damage, nothing game-shattering. If people want to keep the generational mechanic, then why not just do this?
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