Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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ouelite said:
Try modest tera flying with specs or life orb. 2hkos most of the tier and can get it on tiers most popular mon in great tusk.
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uhhh, one minor problem; 341 speed means it get's outsped by everything above 105 speed, not ideal. roaring moon's crunch will ko after rocks, , pult can ohko with draco, banded cc from zama is a 2hko, pyro from offensive cindy can ohko after rocks, specs moonblast will ohko after rocks and tbolt (no specs) can kill after rocks, specs moth will ohko with sludge wave after rocks (possibly even without rocks) and overheat straight up ohkos, specs wake draco will ohko and dragon pulse can ohko after rocks, specs enam will ohko after rocks with moonblast, even treads can 2hko with iron head. Torn is a little bit lacking at the moment. Even if it's modest specs/lo it will still die to pretty much everything because of rocks.
 
DoofV3 said:
Meow's days of glory are probably over but I'm confident Skeledirge will rise. It's defensive profile, statline, move pool and ability are all incredibly solid and if anything it will get kicked to UUBL if it doesnt rise by usage.
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Same boat. Probably gonna get nuked from UU before rise but i think Skeledirge has a place in OU specially if Tera still exist
 
Me patiently waiting for the survey results:
IMG_1429.jpeg
 
Alternator said:
King's Rock was never really a "too much RNG" ban, since it was broken on Cloyster and somewhere between usable gimmick and actual option on Weavile, and otherwise not a problem. If we're being honest, that was a "This is too powerful, and we're afraid it's going to break more mons if we just ban the current abusers, so we're banning the item," decision that was dressed up as a competitiveness issue.

Quick Claw is a fun gimmick, but take any team built around it and replace it with more normal items, and you have an (at least) equally solid team. It's not propping up low-tier trash, it doesn't require specialized answers in the team builder, it doesn't force otherwise-useless moves, it's not actually causing major issues to the tier. It's a gimmick that synergizes well with screens HO, and screens HO is so powerful that you can afford to sacrifice your items and still be effective.
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the king's rock ban was also used as an excuse to ban rng-related stuff that was 100% not a problem in any capacity, like brightpowder and sand veil. i still agree with the ban of king's rock itself because multihit flinch turned out to be a viable strategy on its own in the same kind of stupid rng-bullshit way that paraflinch serene grace did, and because the ban turned out to be remarkably prescient given that this generation has a mon with a 10-hit move, but we can't deny that the ban was used as an opportunity to bring the hammer down on things that didn't deserve it (instead of things that did, like jirachi. fuck jirachi.)

also, reminder to the council: please remember to ban razor fang when the dlc drops. it hasn't existed for a couple years so i could see it easily slipping through the cracks amidst the hustle and bustle of all the new and reintroduced mons. put, like, a calendar notification on your phones or something, i dunno, whatever you have to do to prevent me from running into razor fang maushold on dlc day 1
 
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658Greninja said:
Gorillaz: Why Rillaboom Still Succeeds in SV OU


Back with another long analysis + breakdown on underrated mons in the current metagame. This time its the funky monkey Rillaboom.

Competitive History

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SS
Being a Gen 8 Pkmn, its history in competitive is shorter than mons like Zapdos or Heatran, but the impact it has made in its debut is difficult to accurately describe if you haven’t played SS OU when it was the latest gen. Rilla didn’t start the generation in OU, in fact it started out in RU. This was because its HA didn’t release til late into the pre-Home metagame, it eventually was able to settle into OU along with Libero Cinder, fulfilling the same role as Bulu did in USUM.

However everything would change with the inclusion of the infamous Grassy Glide in the IoA DLC. Grassy Glide was a priority move under Terrain that can 2HKO even resists like Dragapult. It also wore down the Flying types that it loathed with Knock Off to remove their boots. It also spammed U-Turn to pivot into to mons that threatened the likes of Mandi, Amoonguss, and Corv. The ocassional Superpower 2HKOd Ferro. CB Wood Hammer was a big nuke button that one shot the two big defensive titans, Pex and Clefable. There was also SD sets that could take down even Mandi with enough chip. Rilla’s role in the meta was as a cleaner that also supported its team with Terrain, U-Turn, and Knock.

Crown Tundra brought in challenging obstacles for Rilla. Tran, Zapdos, Torn, Melm, and Dnite were strong checks to it, even with Knock Off in the equation. Tran and Zappy in particular crippled Rilla on contact via Static/Flame Body. However the biggest check to Rilla was Buzzwole who tolerated Knock Off and healed the pitiful damage from it with Roost. Rilla could tech Acro to lure it, but it would have to sacrifice a moveslot that would go into Knock, Superpower, or U-Turn. The Tapus were back and they overtake its terrain whenever they come in. There was also a new competitor in Kart who hit the Flying types of the tier way harder and did better against the likes of Ferro and Melm. Even with the odds in its favor, Rilla was still able to perform well in this metagame. Rilla gained many enemies but also many new partners. The aforementioned Tran, Melm, and Kart, but also Glowking, Ttar, Blaze, and Victini. It also annoyed offensive styles like HO and Rain. Rilla’s role evolved to be more of a support rather than being just a relentless cleaner. The gorilla’s trademark set late into the generation became a bulky SD set with Drain Punch. The bulk from this set allowed Rilla to set up multiple SD’s against defensive teams. It also helped with threats like SD Chomp and Koko. Rillaboom ended the generation with success after a small dark age, landing in A- tier.

https://pokepast.es/c0297574b12d436f (xray’s Bulky Rilla + Lefties Blaziken BO)

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SV
A majority of the OU staples from last gen either were prohibited from entering Paldea’s borders or suffered a cut in their movesets. Weavile lost Knock and T-Axel, Chomp lost Scale Shot, Lando, Pex, and Torn lost Knock, several mons lost Defog, Slowbro lost Teleport, and everything lost Scald (except Volcanion lol). Rilla was not spared. Losing Superpower was pretty bad but the dealbreaker was the loss of Grassy Glide. Without it, Rilla can no longer perform its role as a cleaner which couldn’t be any more unfortunate timing as the meta is much more offense-centric than the previous gen. With that said, Rillaboom has been making a slow resurgence lately, making appearances in WCOP and ladder, but why is that?

Rillaboom’s Niche in SV OU​

Sample Utility Set
Rillaboom @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Tera Type: Dark/Steel
Adamant Nature
- Drum Beating
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Leech Seed/Taunt

Rilla’s role in the metagame leans much more into the supportive side, utilizing moves like Leech Seed or Taunt while removing items and pivoting like in its hayday. It turns out alot of mons in the tier benefit from G-Terrain, even moreso than SS. A majority of the metagame…

  • Appreciates the passive recovery from Terrain
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  • Appreciates the dmg from EQ being reduced from Terrain
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  • Appreciates both the passive recovery and the dmg from EQ being reduced from Terrain
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  • Appreciates the offensive benefits from Terrain
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  • Appreciates all of the above
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Terrain alone propels it from being a generic pure Grass Type to a versatile support that can be fit on HO and BO/Balance. Knock Off is also noticeably rarer than last gen, further solidifying its niche in the metagame.

AV Rilla
Rillaboom @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass/Steel/Water
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Atk / 104 SpD / 52 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch

Credits go to BT89 for this set.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-great-cores.3723774/post-9691880

The purpose of this set is to tank special hits to preserve the HP of its teammates like Glowking, Ting-Lu, Garg, and A-Muk as explained by him. Capable of tanking hits from Pult, Ghold, Enamorus, Wake, CM Valiant, etc. It threatens the team with Knock Off and strong Wood Hammers that get further boosted by Terrain and Tera. The results..

104 Atk Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus in Grassy Terrain: 198-234 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

may vary. Or you can use Tera Steel or Tera Water to cover potential threats like Volcanion or Gholdengo.

Bulky Swords Dance
Rillaboom @ Grassy Seed/Lum Berry
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Electric/Grass/Ice/Steel/Fire
EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off/Drain Punch
- Drain Punch/Tera Blast/Acrobatics

This set aims to return to the late SS metagame with help from Terastilization. Instead of being a cleaner, this set acts more like a wallbreaker and a possible lure on BO/HO. Tera Grass Wood Hammer at +2 trucks through even resists.

+2 252+ Atk Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur in Grassy Terrain: 387-456 (104.3 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus in Grassy Terrain: 486-572 (168.1 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult in Grassy Terrain: 512-603 (161.5 - 190.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 244 Def Slowking-Galar in Grassy Terrain: 333-392 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit in Grassy Terrain: 309-364 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain: 379-446 (120.3 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain: 270-318 (71.4 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery

+2 252+ Atk Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 368-434 (95.8 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


For the mons that don’t get OHKO’d by Wood Hammer, you have two other moves to make use of. Acrobatics, Knock Off, Drain Punch are all worthwhile options on it. Rilla also has other options for Tera.

  • Tera Electric to set up on Zapdos and Torn.

  • Tera Ice to lure and one shot Amoonguss and Flying types while protecting yourself against Bax and Tera Ice Sandy Shocks.

  • Tera Steel for generally being a great Tera Type that also synergizes with Grassy Terrain.

  • Tera Fire to shield against potential burns from Pult, Skele, and Molt while also letting it lure Amoonguss and Corv.

SD Rilla cripples or KOs threats to open the door for mons like Valiant, Sneasler, Zama, Tusks, and more. This set fits specifically on Screens as it can live hits from Zapdos and Sneasler behind screens. Grassy Seed enchances its decent physical bulk which lets it take hits from Bax even without Reflect up which is a big deal, Lum is another item slot in case of a fortunate Static proc or Wisp from Pult and Washtom.

Verdict
The nerfs to its movepool has not stopped Rillaboom from finding its own place in the SV metagame. Grassy Terrain has kept it relevant regardless of its offensive or defensive capabilities. Its so good that it allowed Arboliva to carve a small niche in the Pre-Home meta. Plenty of OU staples like Kingambit, Sneasler, and Garganacl benefit from the effects of G-Terrain. We will see in the future if Rilla manages to keep up the winning streak or gets Grassy Glide back from DLC.

Teams:

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(G-Terrain A-Muk + Band Moon)
https://pokepast.es/1712a11eadebd72e

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(Ursa G-Terrain BO)
https://pokepast.es/32e6e826e87162a4

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(CM Taunt Enam Grassy Seed Spam)
https://pokepast.es/8d5d40672f7ffd1f

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(SD Rilla Screens)
https://pokepast.es/04f0f24536822fca​
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I swear at this point Morkal has a fanbase
 
Has anyone been trying to run Low Kick on their Meowscarada sets lately? I was never a fan of Spike-Bot Meow (which was probably the main reason it was top tier before Sam-H sadly) but I feel Choiced sets are still very much worth using in this meta, and Low Kick itself doesn't even appear as one of the moves being ran in the usage stats at all.


Meowscarada @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
- U-turn

If you feel like dropping Sucker Punch, you may as well just run Low Kick instead, it can get you some neat KOs like:

(These are all Scarfed calcs, I'll put a Band calc if there's anything relevant to add)
252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 332-392 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur: 372-440 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 462-546 (131.6 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 504-592 (126 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 224-266 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (This actually outdamages Flower Trick, not very useful given that Garg will probably Tera anyway, but it is here if anything)

252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 288-342 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Flower Trick has a slight chance to miss the 2HKO)

252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 428-506 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 189-223 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 283-334 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 300-354 (78.1 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (This guy can take 2 Flower Trick otherwise)

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 320-378 (98.4 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

There's even a chance you could run Play Rough instead, while I don't think it's as good as Low Kick, it has some nifty perks, such as allowing you to OHKO Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon and Pult in one slot, doing over 60% to Enamorus-I, while still doing a nice chunk to mons like Baxcalibur. If running Band, you can instead just oneshot Enamorus and actually 2HKO even Defensive Zap, which Meowscarada really hates otherwise, though Static shenanigans may trigger and ruin your day either way.

Even without the Protean boost, you still handily 2HKO Heatran, Bax, and more importantly, KO Gambit, so I guess even Pivot sets can make good use of the move.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
the king's rock ban was also used as an excuse to ban rng-related stuff that was 100% not a problem in any capacity, like brightpowder and sand veil. i still agree with the ban of king's rock itself because multihit flinch turned out to be a viable strategy on its own in the same kind of stupid rng-bullshit way that paraflinch serene grace did, and because the ban turned out to be remarkably prescient given that this generation has a mon with a 10-hit move, but we can't deny that the ban was used as an opportunity to bring the hammer down on things that didn't deserve it (instead of things that did, like jirachi. fuck jirachi.)

also, reminder to the council: please remember to ban razor fang when the dlc drops. it hasn't existed for a couple years so i could see it easily slipping through the cracks amidst the hustle and bustle of all the new and reintroduced mons. put, like, a calendar notification on your phones or something, i dunno, whatever you have to do to prevent me from running into razor fang maushold on dlc day 1
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Sand veil got banned in gen 8 OU because garchomp was using it with sub and bright powder to set up super easy and sweep. I definitely wouldn’t say that it wasn’t causing any problems, it made an already dangerous setup sweeper win because of lucky misses
 
kosecant said:
Sand veil got banned in gen 8 OU because garchomp was using it with sub and bright powder to set up super easy and sweep. I definitely wouldn’t say that it wasn’t causing any problems, it made an already dangerous setup sweeper win because of lucky misses
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I always think it's wack how "garchomp can use this one tool to set up" is evidence that the tool is bannable and not chomp. It's all "we tier Pokemon" when we're talking about moves, but items are fair game. Not that this can't be a consistent tiering philosophy, just that I don't understand how it's consistent.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
the king's rock ban was also used as an excuse to ban rng-related stuff that was 100% not a problem in any capacity, like brightpowder and sand veil. i still agree with the ban of king's rock itself because multihit flinch turned out to be a viable strategy on its own in the same kind of stupid rng-bullshit way that paraflinch serene grace did, and because the ban turned out to be remarkably prescient given that this generation has a mon with a 10-hit move, but we can't deny that the ban was used as an opportunity to bring the hammer down on things that didn't deserve it (instead of things that did, like jirachi. fuck jirachi.)

also, reminder to the council: please remember to ban razor fang when the dlc drops. it hasn't existed for a couple years so i could see it easily slipping through the cracks amidst the hustle and bustle of all the new and reintroduced mons. put, like, a calendar notification on your phones or something, i dunno, whatever you have to do to prevent me from running into razor fang maushold on dlc day 1
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Evasion really does represent a different issue, though - not terribly strong normally, but when you stack it up and play toward it, it gets really difficult to counter.

Evasion ability + Bright Powder/Lax Incense + Substitute; finish it off with either Protect to secure even more chances to keep your substitute up, a source of passive healing like Leech Seed, or a boosting move to maximize the impact when it happens. If you really want to go for maximum obnoxiousness, imagine the following set:

Cacturne
Sand Veil + Bright Powder
Substitute / Protect / Leech Seed/ Sandstorm

This set is total Ferrothorn bait, but he's not in SV, so the only mon immune to both sources of passive damage is Toedscruel, leaving the user free to be a jerk. Cacturne is terrible and his low speed is a severe problem, but if you're running this kind of gimmick you might as well go all-in and use a Sticky Web setter, too.

Get in against something that doesn't threaten Cacturne too much (Parting Shot, screens support + a pivot, whatever floats your boat) and click Substitute. Sandstorm on the switch and begin laughing as you whittle your opponent down with two sources of passive damage, while Leech Seed gives longevity and lets you keep using Substitute.

This is still a shitmon, don't get me wrong - but if you build your team around supporting it, it's a shitmon that most bulky offense teams don't have a good answer for, and you could play it as a wincon. Kill their hazard removal, get Sticky Web up, and grind the opponent down with passive damage on the free turns generated by the opponent missing.

It's got a lot of weaknesses, but the only truly reliable counterplay is a regenerator core or moves like Swift that don't check accuracy, though "be fast and strong and kill him on the switch" is reliable enough that he's death fodder versus offensive teams. That's still a lot of structures that just don't have a good way to break it, and for the love of God, this is a Cacturne. Even being potentially viable in OU is a red flag.

But yes, fuck Jirachi. 41% flinch on Cloyster got King's Rock yeeted for "uncompetitiveness" but 60% flinch on Jirachi is fine.

PS: Scope Lens is also a pure-RNG item, despite the interaction with Focus Energy. If we're banning RNG items, then I'm sorry to the one person trying to make Focus Energy work in OU, but your favorite toy needs to go too.
 
Alternator said:
PS: Scope Lens is also a pure-RNG item, despite the interaction with Focus Energy. If we're banning RNG items, then I'm sorry to the one person trying to make Focus Energy work in OU, but your favorite toy needs to go too.
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Funnily enough, it is the exact opposite of a RNG item when paired with Focus Energy. Without Scope Lens, Focus-boosted attacks are a literal 50/50.

With it, though? It's a 100% chance to crit, the least random outcome possible.
 
Fenghuang said:
I always think it's wack how "garchomp can use this one tool to set up" is evidence that the tool is bannable and not chomp. It's all "we tier Pokemon" when we're talking about moves, but items are fair game. Not that this can't be a consistent tiering philosophy, just that I don't understand how it's consistent.
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It was deemed to fall under evasion clause, because all it does is boost evasion, and realistically it should have been banned long before this because of it. Pretty consistent with previous decisions, it just never got looked at until it was abused
 
i know its early and theres a lot going on right now, but battle bond greninja... :greninja:

i know on face value it looked like a nerf, but this thing is kind of beserk with the boost, stronger and faster than last gen. Unless you have strong priority in the back its pretty rough despite being in UU right now, even then if its focus sash it has enough power and coverage to blast through the rest of the game. Is this thing on the radar at all?
 
tommytt22 said:
i know its early and theres a lot going on right now, but battle bond greninja... :greninja:

i know on face value it looked like a nerf, but this thing is kind of beserk with the boost, stronger and faster than last gen. Unless you have strong priority in the back its pretty rough despite being in UU right now, even then if its focus sash it has enough power and coverage to blast through the rest of the game. Is this thing on the radar at all?
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Don't think so. Greninja struggles to get that first KO and it's got rough competition when it comes to fitting in Water and Dark STAB on one mon. It's cool that Battle Bond jacks up its Speed this time around, but since the boost is lost on switch, it forces you to play super careful with when you actually decide to proc it and wait until anything that can counter it is gone. Overall it feels like Greninja is something the rest of your team needs to work around to get results with, rather than working with the team to get results.
 
Alternator said:
But yes, fuck Jirachi. 41% flinch on Cloyster got King's Rock yeeted for "uncompetitiveness" but 60% flinch on Jirachi is fine.
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Well, jirachi can't boost it's speed unless you count ancient power and z-happy hour, but it's still not a +2 speed boost. Cloyster can get a +2 speed boost and outspeed almost all mons and some scarf mons at 524 speed. At +1 jiarchi hits 492 speed, which is a bit lower and it's beatable. Also, iron head isn't as strong as +2 skill link icicle spear. Even in nat dex, jirachi can only use z-happy hour once and ancient power isn't reliable with or without serene grace. (also z-moves don't exist in gen8 and 9)
 
Pando067 said:
Well, jirachi can't boost it's speed unless you count ancient power and z-happy hour, but it's still not a +2 speed boost. Cloyster can get a +2 speed boost and outspeed almost all mons and some scarf mons at 524 speed. At +1 jiarchi hits 492 speed, which is a bit lower and it's beatable. Also, iron head isn't as strong as +2 skill link icicle spear. Even in nat dex, jirachi can only use z-happy hour once and ancient power isn't reliable with or without serene grace. (also z-moves don't exist in gen8 and 9)
Click to expand...

That's all power stuff, though. Cloyster was indeed too powerful, but that's not the same as being uncompetitive.
 
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