Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[matte]

This is the part that always felt completely insane to me. Sure, Gambit might only give you a 10-20% chance to win the match when you're down 1v5 but

like

even that is ridiculous?

The odds might be low, but they shouldn't be anywhere near that high! I don't understand how anyone could be okay with a mon like Kingambit being more than an occasional fluke in their ladder grind.

if you play/position gambit well (if you accept the gambit) then it can be really well setup in the endgame. even if you are down 1-5. eg you weakened the val so its in range, scouted for sets etc... It hits so hard that even a little chip from its teammates/hazards goes a long way (an ohko or not). Like offensive gambit has an 81.3% chance to kill itself if boosted enough (you play the mindgames correctly)

+4 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 329-388 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Like offensive gambit has an 81.3% chance to kill itself if boosted enough (you play the mindgames correctly)

+4 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 329-388 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

I get what you mean and I'm not disagreeing with you but it's pretty rare for last mon Gambit to ever get to +4. The bigger dynamic when it comes down to Gambit vs Gambit tends to be one involving does Gambit have Low Kick, which Gambit is faster/will there be a speed-tie, is the opposing Gambit going to Tera, and if so, what type is it going to Tera into? There are a lot of guessing games there and you can end up in a situation where even if you have a Jolly Gambit with Low Kick, you still aren't sure if you should click it or try to predict a Tera. Obviously that's just part of the dynamic brought about by Tera and there are ways to help make more informed decisions, so it's not like there are four pure 50/50s at the same time you're trying to wade through, but it's still why Gambit exacerbates the problematic aspects of Tera more than any other mon.

 

[658Greninja]

Just wanted to say that after playing OLT for 3 cycles now. Not banning gambit is easily top 5 worst decisions that I've seen on this site tiering wise. I genuinely believe that voting do not ban was just coping because of how unbalanced this tier is and that DLC is coming out. So many games come down to sucker punch mind games and "oh man will gambit tera". Its honestly so annoying how not okay this mon is and the best way to even the playing field is just using it yourself. This is definitely a mald post because I question the decision making out of those who voted do not ban. The only positive point to be made is that we will hopefully have a significant metagame shift in a month but as it stands right now gambit is way too over-centralizing and in general is just a brain dead mon that promotes too many skill-less 50/50s that can swing a game regardless of if you played worst. Most games, even if you get painfully outplayed, if you save gambit and tera you may have a chance, which is seriously concerning and says a lot about the current state of the tier.

I think the overall difference between Gambit and stuff banned from OU in the past is the stuff you bring for Gambit isn’t solely for it. Your not seeing people run unmons on a team like with Spect who demanded you to bring Mandi, SpD Ttar, or fucking defensive Hydrei in Gen 8.

The mons that answer Gambit, those being the likes of Zama, Tusk, Samu, BB Gren, Cinder, Molt, Flame Body Tran, Dozo, Lando, Loom, Iron Hands, Encore, Substitute, and Trick are all great mons in their own right that have a purpose on a team other than checking Gambit, and that includes Encore/Substitute/Trick.

Encore is an incredible option on mons like Valiant, Dnite, and Azu that punishes setup and recovery moves, allowing for more setup opportunities. It also completely fucks over Gambit in endgame situations where it is the only mon on the field, cause it will never click Sucker, and no Tera can offset that. Substitute is nice tech on Moth, Enam, Zapdos, and more that also helps with Garg and makes them more threatening towards bulkier builds. Trick punishes Gambit and ensures it doesn’t click Sucker. It also cripples other setup sweepers and walls.

You also have mons that can comfortably eat a non-Tera Dark +2 Sucker like Sneasler, Enam, Zama, etc.

Gambit also doesn’t have alot of free switch ins since everything in the tier minus stuff like Amoonguss and Pex can cripple it or outright stomp it. Wisp on Pult and T-Wave or Focus Miss on Ghold. Even Glowking can click Flamethrower or T-Wave to cripple it. With that, you’re often gonna see it in lategame scenarios where it is at full HP or slightly chipped, making counterplay like Encore more valid.

 

[Alternator]

Every time I see someone complain that Kingambit survived its suspect test, I go check and see if the person bothered to write out a post explaining why they feel the mon should have been banned.

To be clear, Baloor did make such a post, and not just a one-off, he went back and explained himself. However, a lot of the people who are angriest about the suspect result either didn't bother trying to sway voters by explaining their position or didn't bother to make reqs.

If you know you're going to get upset about a suspect test going against your preferred result, do something about it.

 

[Wesley23675]

Everything else you said is spot-on except for this imo
Fake out is definitely a big deal for this set because it lets you counterlead Hsamu with fake out to break sash+kill with CC. Outside of that, it's generally not awful speed control, and it increases ur chances of applying poison. If I was to lead with this sneasler (shocker, I know) and my opponent leads zapdos (another shocker), I have fake out+u-turn=2 chances for poison touch to proc rather than just 1 chance (I u-turn immediately). Given that half the fun of this set is abusing poison touch, fake out is definitely a good choice on paper and in practice.

I will say, this set is not splashable. It wants pivots to get it in, it wants hazards to synergize with the volturn, and it wants the correct wallbreaker to abuse the mons that it is bringing in. But on the right teams it is a really strong set.

I recall people running mons with substitute such as dragapult or kingambit to wear down the opposing pokemon with passive damage once they're poisoned. I remember that particular gambit had sub protect and night slash as well lmao

 

[matte]

What are some tips for climbing ladder? I'm at the 1700s but I can't seem to get any higher bc of stress/pressure. When I try other styles of teams (HO and Stall) I drop alot. I like playing balance the most.

 

[Moyashi]

think the overall difference between Gambit and stuff banned from OU in the past is the stuff you bring for Gambit isn’t solely for it. Your not seeing people run unmons on a team like with Spect who demanded you to bring Mandi, SpD Ttar, or fucking defensive Hydrei in Gen 8.

Everyone knows this. The issue is gambit can still beat teams that are heavily prepped for it which is something you seem to ignore.

Just because the prep being brought is already OU viable doesn't mean the mon isnt overbearing.

Encore is an incredible option on mons like Valiant, Dnite, and Azu that punishes setup and recovery moves, allowing for more setup opportunities. It also completely fucks over Gambit in endgame situations where it is the only mon on the field, cause it will never click Sucker, and no Tera can offset that.

So dont just bring mons to cehck it offensively but also run these moves too. Having to be running multiple checks as well as specific moves, no matter how viable, is still a sign of a major issue. The tier is a mess right now and Kingambit is a.major reason why. Not just for the hugely centralizing nature, but for the 50/50s it forces late game is awful.

And while i dont exactly buy into usage based arguments generally, it should be a huge red flag that Gambit is nearly 1st in ladder usage and still succeeding so well in tourneys in spite of how much people prep for it. It really hasnt slowed down.

 

[658Greninja]

Everyone knows this. The issue is gambit can still beat teams that are heavily prepped for it which is something you seem to ignore.

Find me some top level replays from WCOP, OLT, or high ladder of Gambit doing exactly that while not using any niche Teras, then we’ll talk.

 

[Moyashi]

while not using any niche Teras, then we’ll talk.

It doesn't matter what tera type it uses to accomplish that because ultimately that's the point: Kingambit abuses tera extremely well that it can run a number of types to beat so much of it's counterplay. Trying to say it doesn't because the type is "niche" is such a weak dismissal.

 

[658Greninja]

It doesn't matter what tera type it uses to accomplish that because ultimately that's the point: Kingambit abuses tera extremely well that it can run a number of types to beat so much of it's counterplay. Trying to say it doesn't because the type is "niche" is such a weak dismissal.

I say that because the most common Gambit tera types are Fairy, Flying, Dark, and the occasional Tera Fighting. The others are quite rate cause they have clear weaknesses. Tera Fire? Wow, nice way to guarantee you lose to Tusk, isn’t the whole point of Tera to beat it? Tera Ghost? I’ve seen this get mentioned but rarely seen it on ladder, and why would you make the Gambit ditto harder on yourself?

Again, ppl bring up how Gambit can just run all 18 tera types but 9 times outta ten its running 3-4 of the same Teras. The others are more specific (Tera Fire for Wisp) but also have bigger trade offs than being the best Fairy or Flying type in the tier.

Replays por favor

 

[Moyashi]

I say that because the most common Gambit tera types are Fairy, Flying, Dark, and the occasional Tera Fighting. The others are quite rate cause they have clear weaknesses. Tera Fire? Wow, nice way to guarantee you lose to Tusk, isn’t the whole point of Tera to beat it? Tera Ghost? I’ve seen this get mentioned but rarely seen it on ladder, and why would you make the Gambit ditto harder on yourself?

Who said your opponent is going to be able to capitalize on the weakness of those types? Gambit is such a volatile mon that has a reputation for sweeping teams so well. And even its main typings it uses aren't without weaknesses so this is a moot argument anyways. Point is, Gambit abuses to become immensely potent and difficult to handle, and forces many 50/50 interactions, especially end game scenario

(which btw you mention all that counterplay as if you're guaranteed to have it ready all the time)

Again, ppl bring up how Gambit can just run all 18 tera types but 9 times outta ten its running 3-4 of the same Teras. The others are more specific (Tera Fire for Wisp) but also have bigger trade offs than being the best Fairy or Flying type in the tier

Again, not really relevant. How common or uncommon it is doesn't really change what gambit ultimately does. And if this was a mon last gen doing the same thing, no one would really argue that how common a set was is a balancing factor. Kyur didn't run scarf much but it was still one of many sets that complicated counterplay. Just as what tera type gambit chooses affects it.

Replays por favor

Nah. You want to argue on your terms (replays containing the most common teras), assuming you're the one who's right and needs to be proven otherwise. You won't accept replays with "not common teras". It comes off as bad faith and I'm not interested.

 

[Magcargo]

Idk, I've been playing the meta more, trying some options of my comfort zone and most of them seem to work. Cinderace + Valiant is a cute alternative to Tusk + Gambit, a fair deal of other Pokemon like the legendary birds are pretty good, and even some of the random niche picks I use have done some work here and there (though this is usually against less prepared opponents)

Gambit is OP in my hands, but manageable in the opponent's. Baxcalibur feels more OP to me. I almost never know what to do vs it. I'm confused why SD is more popular since DD Bax has me scared most games.

I watched some WCop games and there seems to be a decent variety of teams there as well. I expected the metagame to be the Gambit / Tusk show based on how ppl are describing it, but that would be oversimplified it a great deal.

I do like the variety the top Pokemon have in sets compared to prior gens. Feels like a real sandbox using them. Tbf this was also the case last gen, but some Tera optimizations can really make a difference, which I like.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

I think it is kind of irrelevant if Gambit can beat teams that are relatively prepared for it with or without a niche tera. Volcarona which got banned also was able to be subdued, but people had to run 2-3 checks to make sure they did not loose to the mon and even then sometimes niche teras fucked them up.

it is the same issue with Kingambit where teambuilding inherently is limited because sometimes not even 2 checks are enough and even if for example you have tusk and flame body moltres you can still loose, needing to bring 3-4 mons who have counterplay against gambit is very obnoxious and theoretically while it may be manageable I wouldn't say it is too healthy.

(I also agree with magcargo, bax feels way more broken IMO I hate that stupid lizard, it feels like it just comes in and u have no switchin ever)

 

[MetaSkipper]

Is DD Bax more popular than SD? I think I've only run into DD and the occasional Banded Bax.

I see the appeal, though. +1 Speed Baxcalibur is still outsped by things like boosted Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, and Enamorus. (Granted, I think the only relevant mon that outspeeds but is weak to Ice Spear is Enamorus.) SD also makes it easier to OHKO walls and you naturally outspeed those anyway.

 

[pallsh]

Is DD Bax more popular than SD? I think I've only run into DD and the occasional Banded Bax.

I see the appeal, though. +1 Speed Baxcalibur is still outsped by things like boosted Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, and Enamorus. (Granted, I think the only relevant mon that outspeeds but is weak to Ice Spear is Enamorus.) SD also makes it easier to OHKO walls and you naturally outspeed those anyway.
market-promocode.ru discounts

Yes,I think, DD Bax is more popular than SD Bax. This is because DD Bax has a higher overall damage output and it is more versatile.

 

[Sylveon used calm mind]

Just wanted to say that after playing OLT for 3 cycles now. Not banning gambit is easily top 5 worst decisions that I've seen on this site tiering wise. I genuinely believe that voting do not ban was just coping because of how unbalanced this tier is and that DLC is coming out. So many games come down to sucker punch mind games and "oh man will gambit tera". Its honestly so annoying how not okay this mon is and the best way to even the playing field is just using it yourself. This is definitely a mald post because I question the decision making out of those who voted do not ban. The only positive point to be made is that we will hopefully have a significant metagame shift in a month but as it stands right now gambit is way too over-centralizing and in general is just a brain dead mon that promotes too many skill-less 50/50s that can swing a game regardless of if you played worst. Most games, even if you get painfully outplayed, if you save gambit and tera you may have a chance, which is seriously concerning and says a lot about the current state of the tier.

Gambit has enough counterplay in the tier, thats why most people, myself included voted no ban. It's not just other gambit (with low kick, which is rather uncommon) thats good vs gambit. Regardingthe 50/50s with sucker punch, you could say the same thing about every other sucker punch user that got a +2

 

[Schpoonman]

Gambit has enough counterplay in the tier, thats why most people, myself included voted no ban. It's not just other gambit (with low kick, which is rather uncommon) thats good vs gambit. Regardingthe 50/50s with sucker punch, you could say the same thing about every other sucker punch user that got a +2

Kingambit has far and away the strongest Sucker Punch in Pokemon's history. STAB Tera alone would put Gambit over Yveltal due to 135 Attack, but as the last mon standing Supreme Overlord pushes it way past. "Most" is also disingenuous when ban got a majority of the votes, only failing to reach a supermajority.

 

[ouelite]

Anyone realised that great tusk is #1 used and doesn’t really check anything in ou other than non tera fairy gambit?

 

[658Greninja]

Anyone realised that great tusk is #1 used and doesn’t really check anything in ou other than non tera fairy gambit?

Tusk is #1 because its the only reliable form of hazard removal besides Cinder. It also forces progress with Knock and/or its high atk stat.

 

[Schpoonman]

To second what Gren said, Tusk also threatens the best anti-removal mon ever introduced (you can't tell me Ghold's 86 speed and Tusk's 87 wasn't as intentional as Genesect, Hydreigon, and Haxorus getting 99, 98, and 97), making it a rare spinner that also is difficult to spinblock.

 

[Finchinator]

While I personally wish Kingambit got banned, let’s remember that it would’ve likely only been for a few weeks with DLC around the corner and the dynamic surrounding it has a chance to change with new additions to the metagame.

This is one of those suspects where the outcome just doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things due to bigger things being on the horizon. It’s entirely alright that it stayed.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Maaaaaan

Kingambit has far and away the strongest Sucker Punch in Pokemon's history. STAB Tera alone would put Gambit over Yveltal due to 135 Attack, but as the last mon standing Supreme Overlord pushes it way past. "Most" is also disingenuous when ban got a majority of the votes, only failing to reach a supermajority.

While I personally wish Kingambit got banned, let’s remember that it would’ve likely only been for a few weeks with DLC around the corner and the dynamic surrounding it has a chance to change with new additions to the metagame.

This is one of those suspects where the outcome just doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things due to bigger things being on the horizon. It’s entirely alright that it stayed.

Every time I see someone complain that Kingambit survived its suspect test, I go check and see if the person bothered to write out a post explaining why they feel the mon should have been banned.

To be clear, Baloor did make such a post, and not just a one-off, he went back and explained himself. However, a lot of the people who are angriest about the suspect result either didn't bother trying to sway voters by explaining their position or didn't bother to make reqs.

If you know you're going to get upset about a suspect test going against your preferred result, do something about it.

Everyone here brings up a good point. This entire metagame (and as such metagame forum) has been put in shambles, and all you see is 3 things:

1) Talk about Kingambit not being banned

2) People attempting to cope with the Kingambit suspect

3) The much more logical people - those that are accepting this like any other suspect test.

Personally, I too would wish this bastard was off the face of the earth, but lets look at this in another light: Walking Wake started out bonkers, then it was proven to be decent. Not overpowered - decent. To be fair, Kingambit has been around since day 1, and as such has gained a lot heavier controversy. Forget the DLC coming literally next month let's all just try to play with it in the tier.

TLDR: Wait. Cope. You lasted this long - you can wait a bit longer. And in the meantime, try and find something positive from this outcome

 

[Low-Key]

This really you, OverUsed?

 

[Finchinator]

View attachment 544155
This really you, OverUsed?

No, that’s just you.

It’s pretty clear people “give a crap” if they’re using 260 pages to discuss the format over a small period of time.

 

[Low-Key]

It’s pretty clear people “give a crap” if they’re using 260 pages to discuss the format over a small period of time.

"over a small period of time.." This thread was made on the 30th of May this year. Almost 3 months so kind of fair.

However, what I mean by "not giving a crap" is me saying that Kingambit and Terastal should have been banned. 'Nuff said.