why are we ignoring gen 3 salamence lmao
Which Salamence wore it the best? Gen 4, Mega, or Paradox?
that gen had the best sprites
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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that gen had the best sprites
it makes so much sense.
1. roaring moon has moon in it's name
2. moon will often tera flying for stab acrobatics
3. It has wings and it learns fly so it must be able to fly
So I was cooking in teambuilder and said "hey Ogerpon-Welladjusted is super obnoxious against my team let me find a fast freeze-dry user" BRO WHY THE HELL IS A9T 1 POINT LOWER SPEED THAN OG-W?!
I get why freeze dry distribution is sparce but it would be great if non-ice type mons would get it. I also remember a romhack I played had Aurora Beam distribution for ALL electric types which was super helpful. I also also remember another romhack I played where I caught a shiny seviper and just had to use it and then they gave it a crazy poison/steel evo?! I also also also remember the ADV anime with Jessie and her seviper. gosh jessie was foine. anyway what's your go-to ogerpon-whatshername counter?
I get why freeze dry distribution is sparce but it would be great if non-ice type mons would get it. I also remember a romhack I played had Aurora Beam distribution for ALL electric types which was super helpful. I also also remember another romhack I played where I caught a shiny seviper and just had to use it and then they gave it a crazy poison/steel evo?! I also also also remember the ADV anime with Jessie and her seviper. gosh jessie was foine. anyway what's your go-to ogerpon-whatshername counter?
tera dragon or grass dozo
I need to remind any ally I can gather in the crusade against Hazard spam. Just as Gholdengo inhibits your boy, so does Gliscor. Can't have you napping on the job while there are targets.
Also the "Fly Me to UU" parody is on my brain because Moon dropped down there briefly itself.
roaring moon is finished
Roaring Moon ate and left no crumbs for those little m-mence arms tbh (I still love the three designs tho)
Which Salamence wore it the best? Gen 4, Mega, or Paradox?
guys what’s meta I haven’t played for a while
Wait so you’re telling me that roaring moon went from on the radar - uu - back on the radar? What Knock Off can do to a mfer.
Honestly, after playing quite a few games with both gliscor and gholdengo, I think there both a problem, but together they exacerbate each other.
I think my previous opinion that banning one will make the other better was a bit off, they are just the same amount as broken. Both should be banned but I don't expect them to be as people think one or the other is broken and the other is fine, which will mean that a suspect test will not result in a ban.
Gliscor can wall things that should beat it while spreading knock, hazards or toxic while Gholdengo can stop hazard removal, be an offensive threat and wall loads of pokemon. Both can do multiple jobs too well.
Also idea time, what if status like burn, poison/badly poisoned and paralysis only lasted 7 turns. Although it would probably make some pokemon broken, Gliscor now would have trouble switching into knock as after seven turns it loses healing if toxic orb is knocked off.
I think my previous opinion that banning one will make the other better was a bit off, they are just the same amount as broken. Both should be banned but I don't expect them to be as people think one or the other is broken and the other is fine, which will mean that a suspect test will not result in a ban.
Gliscor can wall things that should beat it while spreading knock, hazards or toxic while Gholdengo can stop hazard removal, be an offensive threat and wall loads of pokemon. Both can do multiple jobs too well.
Also idea time, what if status like burn, poison/badly poisoned and paralysis only lasted 7 turns. Although it would probably make some pokemon broken, Gliscor now would have trouble switching into knock as after seven turns it loses healing if toxic orb is knocked off.
bros remember neutralizing gas geeking can defog !!!1!1 (mods ban Gholdengo now)
Just wanted to make a short post about how people react to drops. I'm not going to go too in depth into the metagame since this is moreso general and isn't only about this gen's OU or even OU at all. Feel free to correct me if I get anything wrong.
No, when Pokemon drop to lower tiers, they do not suddenly become worse in OverUsed. Quite a lot of the time people who praise Pokemon for their effectiveness can just as easily bash the Pokemon because it fell to a lower tier due to usage. Espathra and Baxcalibur fell to UU, but were eventually discovered to be meta-warping and defining threats that were eventually banned from OU, and they did not suddenly become better when they were tiered OU compared to when they were UUBL. National Dex has no bearing on OU, but when Chi-Yu dropped to National Dex UU, that did not stop it from being banned in OU. What I'm saying is that while a drop does signify a fall in favor for the Pokemon in the current metagame, it does not somehow signify said Pokemon becoming worse than it was the moment before the drop.
To clarify, I made this post directed at the people who said Roaring Moon was bad simply for the reasoning that it dropped to UU and nothing else. The pre-DLC meta was unfavorable for Roaring Moon due to the existence of Baxcalibur, which was a better Dragon Dance sweeper due to its bulk, better Dragon STAB attack, lack of reliance on Booster Energy and arguably more useful Ice STAB. It also threatened non-Tera/Tera Flying Roaring Moon with Ice Shard, and its sweep was not deterred by an attack boosting Roaring Moon since it was faster at +1 or could destroy it with a +2 Ice Shard. So, in a Baxcalibur meta, Roaring Moon was outclassed. This did not suddenly give it the ability Defeatist over Protosynthesis, it just meant that there was less reason to use Roaring Moon in comparison to Baxcalibur. I firmly believe that if Baxcalibur wasn't in the previous metagame, Roaring Moon would've been a notable OU sweeper, even without Knock Off, since it had the power, coverage and speed to thrive in such a metagame. Not because it was already tiered OU.
Essentially, the crux of this post is to tell people to examine the reasons why they would think a Pokemon would or would not work in a metagame and determine if they believe it's bad through that metric, rather than looking at the tier shifts and calling it a day.
No, when Pokemon drop to lower tiers, they do not suddenly become worse in OverUsed. Quite a lot of the time people who praise Pokemon for their effectiveness can just as easily bash the Pokemon because it fell to a lower tier due to usage. Espathra and Baxcalibur fell to UU, but were eventually discovered to be meta-warping and defining threats that were eventually banned from OU, and they did not suddenly become better when they were tiered OU compared to when they were UUBL. National Dex has no bearing on OU, but when Chi-Yu dropped to National Dex UU, that did not stop it from being banned in OU. What I'm saying is that while a drop does signify a fall in favor for the Pokemon in the current metagame, it does not somehow signify said Pokemon becoming worse than it was the moment before the drop.
To clarify, I made this post directed at the people who said Roaring Moon was bad simply for the reasoning that it dropped to UU and nothing else. The pre-DLC meta was unfavorable for Roaring Moon due to the existence of Baxcalibur, which was a better Dragon Dance sweeper due to its bulk, better Dragon STAB attack, lack of reliance on Booster Energy and arguably more useful Ice STAB. It also threatened non-Tera/Tera Flying Roaring Moon with Ice Shard, and its sweep was not deterred by an attack boosting Roaring Moon since it was faster at +1 or could destroy it with a +2 Ice Shard. So, in a Baxcalibur meta, Roaring Moon was outclassed. This did not suddenly give it the ability Defeatist over Protosynthesis, it just meant that there was less reason to use Roaring Moon in comparison to Baxcalibur. I firmly believe that if Baxcalibur wasn't in the previous metagame, Roaring Moon would've been a notable OU sweeper, even without Knock Off, since it had the power, coverage and speed to thrive in such a metagame. Not because it was already tiered OU.
Essentially, the crux of this post is to tell people to examine the reasons why they would think a Pokemon would or would not work in a metagame and determine if they believe it's bad through that metric, rather than looking at the tier shifts and calling it a day.
Now do manaphy or iron valiant, that will be a challenge.
Reminds me of how Rotom-W dropped to UU multiple times in Gen 8 despite being great in OU practically the entire Gen. Same for this gen.
This honestly happens to multiple pokemon in multiple tiers in multiple generations multiple times (Have I said multiple enough times? Potentially). It's honestly more due to the stigma of lower tier pokemon always been worse than pokemon in higher tiers, which isn't always correct. No I am not saying to use grumpig in OU because it could be underated, that shit is low tier for a reason. But still, you should experiment with pokemon that are not technically OU.
Honestly even worse is when a pokemon is in a tier when it is in fact terrible, but noobs continue to use it and then other noobs see that it's in that tier, think it's great, and the cycle continues. And yes, I am talking about Ampibom. That monkey has been stuck in a tier where it's unusable, with Gen 4 being the exception, and it looks like this Gen is going to repeat itself.
It wasn’t banned. Roaring Moon technically isn’t banned yet but seeing its the first Pokemon mentioned on the Radar it likely will be.
Genuinely surprised Roaring Moon was number one. I gotta remember that it's not just the usual posters here who take these surveys and all our Kingambit whining is just drops in the ocean.
...So, in preparation for the inevitable, what's everyone else using to take over Moon's role?
...So, in preparation for the inevitable, what's everyone else using to take over Moon's role?
You know most of the people here are gonna be saying
, you just know it.
Bit late but.
4, people think this is a 3 or lower but that's because Waterpon is Manaphy's current biggest road block and outclasses it as a water type because fits in teams easier because Waterpon supports teams while Manaphy requires support.
Tail Glow/3 attacks has almost no switch ins because Energy Ball/Ice Beam hits water, grass and dragon which resist Scald. Tail Glow is amazing with webs because it messes booster speed control and stored power is amazing on Veil, Encore counterplay is awkward to position and only forces it out. Mono water is also one of the best defensive types for set up so Manaphy is not Tera reliant.
4 to 5, this another one I see people say is a 3 or lower but that's because Kingambit permeates the tier. Nothing switches into Knock/Acro/Eq because the few things that resist flying/dark are weak to ground, with booster attack it gets a recoilless Life Orb in addition to its high offense and perfect coverage, booster speed outruns even booster Valiant which is a common form of late game speed control. Moon has high enough stats it almost always get a Dragon Dance. If Gambit goes this guy will predate the tier with only more passive options available like Dozo/Corv which struggle to kill back and hate being Knock-off. Also outside Extreme speed, priority is unreliable because it resists Grassy Glide, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch prior Tera, and Bax is longer here to Ice Shard it.
3 to 4, It toxics stuff, the toxic immune (steel/poison) take big damage from EQ, if it gets spikes up it's a pain to switch back because of it's few weakness, poison heal and status immunity, it allows Gliscor to come for free on so many things, if you run boots it will knock them. With protect it can scout, heal. activate toxic orb and watch you die to poison. The way to deal with it is to fit water/ice coverage as much as possible and cheese protect turns. Also this mon is deceptively fast.
2, this guy got worse overtime, it already had trouble with Gholdengo being double immune to fight/poison, now Gliscor sponges fight/poison while doesn't care about status, while also Iron Moth who also resist poison/fight became big in the tier.
4 to 5, This Pokemon is horrendous for meta variety because it shuts down Balance and Rain while requiring hyper offense counterplay.
Ivy/Power Whip/Swords Dance it eats all and every defensive and utility Pokemon (minus Amoongus) like Tusk, Garg, Heatran, Rotom, Moltres, G-Slowking, Corv, Dozo, Lando, Azu and sent some of these to UU or stunted their viability in OU.
This Pokemon also made rain teams disappear. With Tera it escapes hurricane weakness while gaining a free Assault Vest, it can SD on Peli and proceed it's way with grass moves. +2 Ivy Cudgel in rain destroys rain staples that countered rain weaknesse like Zapdos, Iron Treads, it even 2HKO max def Amoongus. Now sun is the only weather you see around because this mon solos rain.
It has absurd offenses with 100+ bp STAB moves, x1.2 bonus, Ivy Curdle being the one of best physical moves which can crit and make no contact. The other Ogerpons do it too but Grass is bad offensively and Rock is worse defensively. Defiant is situational and Sturdy without boots in the spikes meta is terrible, while Waterpon's Water Absorb is very valuable with Walking Wake around. The free Assault Vest tera makes fast physical mons like Roaring Moon the best answer to it.
5+. Dies to nothing, kills everything. It seems it's usage dropped a bit probably because of Cinderace, sub-Iron Moth and Veil teams, but this Pokemon is still the tier's meat grinder. A lot of it's Fire/Ground/Water checks like Tusk, Ace, Heatran, Dozo, Moltres, H-Samurott, Lando got worse or even drop to UU because of Ogerpon and Manaphy, couple fighting checks like Sneasler and Swords Dance Valiant got worse because of Gliscor, and Zama now has to run substitute for Toxic narrowing Iron/Press coverage.
Getting +1 for free is busted as seen with Zacian's nerf and Firepon, even more so as Supreme Overlord bypasses Unaware.
With Tera it's guarantee to get a Swords Dance, +2 Black Glasses x5 fainted allies Kowtow OHKO Roaring Moon through resist, that's how stupid is this Pokemon's offense and priority make it absurd. Tera Blast Fairy can catch off guard fighting walls like Tusk and Zama. It even runs Low kick for opposing Gambits.
This mon forces you to run half your team with mons that don't lose to it, while forcing fat mons to run less bulk to hit the 200 speed mark so they don't risk get flinch to death. This Pokemon should have been Uber before HOME but people fell for the Dragapult fear mongering. Gambit is responsible for keeping the powercreep in the tier as it kept in check busted things like Bax, Moon, Ghold.
I don't have much hope for DLC2, everyone wanted Gambit answers and balancing from DLC1 and we only got more busted stuff like Firepon, Waterpon, Manaphy, Blood Moon, Gliscor and Veil boosted Bax.
3 to 4, this Pokemon is still the same, it's just hazards that got better with Gliscor and Ribombee, The way Dengo was dealt with was to knock on switch to remove balloon/scarf and then EQ but now Gliscor completely invalidates this approach. For Gholdengo, Gliscor is like that bad guy who takes good guys down the bad path that your mom warned you about.
Finally Terastalization, 5. I'm honestly sick of this mechanic, it messes the fundamentals of competitive Pokemon, it creates too many mental games and overprediction, even if you correctly speculate a tera you have to consider other potential Teras down the battle which can make you throw games knowing you were this close to make the right choice but didn't. And of course Tera enables too many abusers and every win con. It turns busted into outrageously busted.
4, people think this is a 3 or lower but that's because Waterpon is Manaphy's current biggest road block and outclasses it as a water type because fits in teams easier because Waterpon supports teams while Manaphy requires support.Tail Glow/3 attacks has almost no switch ins because Energy Ball/Ice Beam hits water, grass and dragon which resist Scald. Tail Glow is amazing with webs because it messes booster speed control and stored power is amazing on Veil, Encore counterplay is awkward to position and only forces it out. Mono water is also one of the best defensive types for set up so Manaphy is not Tera reliant.
4 to 5, this another one I see people say is a 3 or lower but that's because Kingambit permeates the tier. Nothing switches into Knock/Acro/Eq because the few things that resist flying/dark are weak to ground, with booster attack it gets a recoilless Life Orb in addition to its high offense and perfect coverage, booster speed outruns even booster Valiant which is a common form of late game speed control. Moon has high enough stats it almost always get a Dragon Dance. If Gambit goes this guy will predate the tier with only more passive options available like Dozo/Corv which struggle to kill back and hate being Knock-off. Also outside Extreme speed, priority is unreliable because it resists Grassy Glide, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch prior Tera, and Bax is longer here to Ice Shard it. 3 to 4, It toxics stuff, the toxic immune (steel/poison) take big damage from EQ, if it gets spikes up it's a pain to switch back because of it's few weakness, poison heal and status immunity, it allows Gliscor to come for free on so many things, if you run boots it will knock them. With protect it can scout, heal. activate toxic orb and watch you die to poison. The way to deal with it is to fit water/ice coverage as much as possible and cheese protect turns. Also this mon is deceptively fast. 2, this guy got worse overtime, it already had trouble with Gholdengo being double immune to fight/poison, now Gliscor sponges fight/poison while doesn't care about status, while also Iron Moth who also resist poison/fight became big in the tier. 4 to 5, This Pokemon is horrendous for meta variety because it shuts down Balance and Rain while requiring hyper offense counterplay.Ivy/Power Whip/Swords Dance it eats all and every defensive and utility Pokemon (minus Amoongus) like Tusk, Garg, Heatran, Rotom, Moltres, G-Slowking, Corv, Dozo, Lando, Azu and sent some of these to UU or stunted their viability in OU.
This Pokemon also made rain teams disappear. With Tera it escapes hurricane weakness while gaining a free Assault Vest, it can SD on Peli and proceed it's way with grass moves. +2 Ivy Cudgel in rain destroys rain staples that countered rain weaknesse like Zapdos, Iron Treads, it even 2HKO max def Amoongus. Now sun is the only weather you see around because this mon solos rain.
It has absurd offenses with 100+ bp STAB moves, x1.2 bonus, Ivy Curdle being the one of best physical moves which can crit and make no contact. The other Ogerpons do it too but Grass is bad offensively and Rock is worse defensively. Defiant is situational and Sturdy without boots in the spikes meta is terrible, while Waterpon's Water Absorb is very valuable with Walking Wake around. The free Assault Vest tera makes fast physical mons like Roaring Moon the best answer to it.
5+. Dies to nothing, kills everything. It seems it's usage dropped a bit probably because of Cinderace, sub-Iron Moth and Veil teams, but this Pokemon is still the tier's meat grinder. A lot of it's Fire/Ground/Water checks like Tusk, Ace, Heatran, Dozo, Moltres, H-Samurott, Lando got worse or even drop to UU because of Ogerpon and Manaphy, couple fighting checks like Sneasler and Swords Dance Valiant got worse because of Gliscor, and Zama now has to run substitute for Toxic narrowing Iron/Press coverage.Getting +1 for free is busted as seen with Zacian's nerf and Firepon, even more so as Supreme Overlord bypasses Unaware.
With Tera it's guarantee to get a Swords Dance, +2 Black Glasses x5 fainted allies Kowtow OHKO Roaring Moon through resist, that's how stupid is this Pokemon's offense and priority make it absurd. Tera Blast Fairy can catch off guard fighting walls like Tusk and Zama. It even runs Low kick for opposing Gambits.
This mon forces you to run half your team with mons that don't lose to it, while forcing fat mons to run less bulk to hit the 200 speed mark so they don't risk get flinch to death. This Pokemon should have been Uber before HOME but people fell for the Dragapult fear mongering. Gambit is responsible for keeping the powercreep in the tier as it kept in check busted things like Bax, Moon, Ghold.
I don't have much hope for DLC2, everyone wanted Gambit answers and balancing from DLC1 and we only got more busted stuff like Firepon, Waterpon, Manaphy, Blood Moon, Gliscor and Veil boosted Bax.
3 to 4, this Pokemon is still the same, it's just hazards that got better with Gliscor and Ribombee, The way Dengo was dealt with was to knock on switch to remove balloon/scarf and then EQ but now Gliscor completely invalidates this approach. For Gholdengo, Gliscor is like that bad guy who takes good guys down the bad path that your mom warned you about.Finally Terastalization, 5. I'm honestly sick of this mechanic, it messes the fundamentals of competitive Pokemon, it creates too many mental games and overprediction, even if you correctly speculate a tera you have to consider other potential Teras down the battle which can make you throw games knowing you were this close to make the right choice but didn't. And of course Tera enables too many abusers and every win con. It turns busted into outrageously busted.
*cough cough Gen 8 Weavile*
I know everyone has their eyes on the survey atm but I'd like to ask advice on dealing with a stall core, specifically This one
Individually i dont consider these pokemon a problem. infact even as a pairing i can handle it (eg. specs basculegion can cook the first 2 but not blissey). Its at the point where the sight of this core in team preview makes me want to forfeit, I'm drawing blanks on how to teambuild for it. Ive tried specs basculegion, nasty plot alolan ninetails, stored power quiver dance ribombee, CB hisuian arcanine, Specs zapdos, the list goes on. If there is something obvious im not seeing here please do let me know.
Individually i dont consider these pokemon a problem. infact even as a pairing i can handle it (eg. specs basculegion can cook the first 2 but not blissey). Its at the point where the sight of this core in team preview makes me want to forfeit, I'm drawing blanks on how to teambuild for it. Ive tried specs basculegion, nasty plot alolan ninetails, stored power quiver dance ribombee, CB hisuian arcanine, Specs zapdos, the list goes on. If there is something obvious im not seeing here please do let me know.
I know everyone has their eyes on the survey atm but I'd like to ask advice on dealing with a stall core, specifically This one
Individually i dont consider these pokemon a problem. infact even as a pairing i can handle it (eg. specs basculegion can cook the first 2 but not blissey). Its at the point where the sight of this core in team preview makes me want to forfeit, I'm drawing blanks on how to teambuild for it. Ive tried specs basculegion, nasty plot alolan ninetails, stored power quiver dance ribombee, CB hisuian arcanine, Specs zapdos, the list goes on. If there is something obvious im not seeing here please do let me know.
Substitute Waterpon. Well, if they don't tera at least. But on a surface level look, waterpon can break these guys
CM Iron Valiant? If you drop Encore you could run Moonblast/Thunderbolt/Psyshock. Albeit it's a little dependant on them switching into Blissey instead of leading with it in case of Thunder Wave. Although Booster Energy lets it outspeed all three even while paralyzed...I know everyone has their eyes on the survey atm but I'd like to ask advice on dealing with a stall core, specifically This one
Individually i dont consider these pokemon a problem. infact even as a pairing i can handle it (eg. specs basculegion can cook the first 2 but not blissey). Its at the point where the sight of this core in team preview makes me want to forfeit, I'm drawing blanks on how to teambuild for it. Ive tried specs basculegion, nasty plot alolan ninetails, stored power quiver dance ribombee, CB hisuian arcanine, Specs zapdos, the list goes on. If there is something obvious im not seeing here please do let me know.
Too much work maybe. Waterpon might be better.
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