Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[spin da bloc]

funny gliscor being banned when it's easy countered by any water/ice type
instead of sending it to ubers they should make some stuff like Mamoswine and Rotom-W back to OU

1. There are almost no Ice moves to be had in OU.
2. The Ice moves we did have, such as Ice Spinner on Great Tusk and Dragonite, became MANDATORY because of Gliscor (overly-restrictive teambuilding = unhealthy metagame). Besides, you run Ice Spinner on your Great Tusk and then what? You get 60-80% off so you can get Toxic'd and for Gliscor to just protect off 25% immediately, and come back later to heal the rest?
3. Most waters are fats like Milotic that do not want to eat a Toxic from Gliscor just get to get a marginal amount of damage off that Gliscor will heal off anyways.
4. We can't just "make stuff OU." It's determined by player usage over the month, which is determined by everything else in the metagame. Mamoswine and Rotom-W haven't been "made OU" recently because they are severely outclassed by other Ground types (Great Tusk, Landorus-T) and Ground-immune pivots (Zapdos, Moltres). Not to mention that Rillaboom is the rising star of the month and dunks on both of them.
5. Evidently, given that Gliscor was banned, the existence of these Pokemon (which btw are still usable in OU despite not being OU status) was not enough to handle Gliscor (again, because these Pokemon are severely outclassed and get stomped by a lot of things in the meta)

 

[YNM]

it's time my ppl, unburden has become an overpowered ability

next we'll ban bibarel!

The funny thing is that we actually did ban Moody, and if it were Bibarel's exclusive ability we would have banned the mon instead. But go ahead, I wanna hear some more shitty takes.

 

[Ctann]

I mean, Garganacl frustration was pretty valid. I think it still is/will be in coming months. Maybe not banworthy, but definitely unfun to play against, since Garganacl can easily crush an entire team, or at least 2-4 mons before dying, if you don't have answers to it AND its Tera (e.g., you need Rillaboom AND Slowking-Galar in case of Tera Fairy, or a hard counter like Encore Magic Guard Clefable, etc.)

However, adding an Encore Clefable or really good all around combos such as Rilla + Slowking-G to cover Garganacl aren't overly constricting in teambuilding since these are good all-purpose mons that cover a multitude of things in the meta. These are just things that I, a balance player, can think of off the top of my head, but I know that each playstyle has its own ways to overwhelm and break through Garganacl.

In contrast, forcing yourself to always run HDB spam / Cinderace / random tech Heat Wave on things like Zapdos (when you'd rather have something more consistent like TWave) / Maushold (who is still susceptible to webs and thus being unable to do its job) is much more restricting in teambuilding, as you are only truly running these things for one mon, Gholdengo (particularly HDB spam). I think Cinderace has a little bit more justification as it is still a nice bulky offensive pivot, but at the end of the day Cinderace would not be top 10 in OU for the past two months if it were not for Gholdengo. If/when Gholdengo is banned, I think Cinderace will drop significantly in usage.

So Gholdengo is not winning on its own in the battle. In fact, it often only exists to get its balloon popped and get one kill, or die on a switch-in. But if that's all the hazard stack team needs to stop Great Tusk from spinning, then that is all it needs to do, because it has already won on its own in your teambuilder.

Remember Sneasler? We saw techs like random Tera Ghosts (I ran this on Heatran) or Tera Poisons (I ran this on Great Tusk) BECAUSE of one mon, Sneasler. Now that that mon is gone, I can safely run standard Tera Grass/Bug Heatran and Tera Steel/Fire/Electric Great Tusk for better all-around matchups.

Gholdengo does the same thing to your teambuilder-- forces you to run things that are very overcentralized towards it and tend to cripple you in many other matchups in which you'd rather have another item/mon. That is why it goes a bit beyond Garganacl frustration, at least in my eyes/understanding.

thanks for the good post, just a note that the specific example given of heatwave zapdos has utility against many other things from iron treads to reliable damage on Rillaboom.

Gholdengo isn’t forcing Pokémon’s to run specific Tera types like Mega Weavile, moon, sneasler, etc did before it.

A better example of Pokémon’s forcing Tera types are kingambit making Tera-fairy and tera-fighting relevant on a lot of offensive Pokémon’s such as iron moth and DD dragapult.

Using gholdengo to spin/defog block is denying hazard removal with an actual good pokemon. You’re not using a shitmon to block the removal attempt. And I think this is why it’s contentious, rather than the fact that teams have to “over prepare” for it.

I say this because if gholdengo blocking hazards is such a big deal for a team, it can adapt in mild ways, from slight adjustments to movesets or even items used. For example is it annoying that your booster energy great tusk completely loses to webs + gholdengo? Try HDB on the tusk instead, or add some reliably switch ins such as the aforementioned zapdos or anything else equivalent.

I’d summarise gholdengo as a Pokémon that’s really good at making progress, rather than a pokemon that’s too strong at making progress. This is because it can’t work as independently or semi-independently as the other banned threats before it.

if the Nasty plot set or one of the choice sets is too strong, that’s a different topic.

 

[spin da bloc]

it's time my ppl, unburden has become an overpowered ability

next we'll ban bibarel!

1. Bibarel is not in SV??
2. Bibarel does not get Unburden????
3. Unburden has not historically been broken bc it has been on bad mons. The best we've had is Hawlucha, who is only viable BECAUSE it is an Unburden gimmicky setup sweeper. Sneasler is a min-maxed demon with great offensive coverage, an RNG win button, incredible support via Grassy Seed + Terrain, and Tera in case it needs it. Unburden is broken ON SNEASLER. Unburden is not broken.

 

[spin da bloc]

thanks for the good post, just a note that the specific example given of heatwave zapdos has utility against many other things from iron treads to reliable damage on Rillaboom.

Gholdengo isn’t forcing Pokémon’s to run specific Tera types like Mega Weavile, moon, sneasler, etc did before it.

A better example of Pokémon’s forcing Tera types are kingambit making Tera-fairy and tera-fighting relevant on a lot of offensive Pokémon’s such as iron moth and DD dragapult.

Using gholdengo to spin/defog block is denying hazard removal with an actual good pokemon. You’re not using a shitmon to block the removal attempt. And I think this is why it’s contentious, rather than the fact that teams have to “over prepare” for it.

I say this because if gholdengo blocking hazards is such a big deal for a team, it can adapt in mild ways, from slight adjustments to movesets or even items used. For example is it annoying that your booster energy great tusk completely loses to webs + gholdengo? Try HDB on the tusk instead, or add some reliably switch ins such as the aforementioned zapdos or anything else equivalent.

Thanks! It's a good discussion and one to be had. I'll respond in order.

I don't disagree that Heat Wave Zapdos is not the craziest thing and has other purposes, but generally I'd rather just Hurricane down an Iron Treads (which is not common to begin with) since you wall it anyways (a lot of times you can just Roost as they Steel Beam and off themselves) or a Rillaboom (since this is an OHKO). TWave covers more things for the team (most notably to me is speed control for DPult and Iron Val, as well as just creating win conditions in a pinch), so I think it is generally preferable.

I don't disagree that Gholdengo isn't typically forcing you to run specific Teras. It is forcing you to run specific items/mons in the same vein that Sneasler/Moon was forcing specific Teras. Both are restrictive to teambuilding.

I mean, there are other good mons to Spinblock with. Dragapult, Sinistcha (underexplored, this is not a joke), or at least punish with Zapdos/Moltres/Rocky Helmet and set your rocks back up later (I'm a little biased here, I'll admit, as this is not a problem for me, a balance player. This is more problematic for HO). You may argue Dragapult is not a good mon to spinblock with, but I think that comes down to skill and proper prediciton.

I don't think the issue is that Gholdengo is a "good" Pokemon. I think its an AMAZING mon. Immunity to three types, many resistances, great offensive typing, nutty ability (no Encore, no TWave hax, no Taunt), and on TOP of that hazard guarantee. The question is is it too good? I think Great Tusk is also an amazing mon, as it has great role compression. But it is not wearing nearly as many hats as Gholdengo is. That is why no one is asking for Great Tusk to be suspected. It is not "too" good.

Your last example goes back to my original point. We are now forced to run HDB on Tusk when Leftovers/Rocky Helmet are much better items all around. And even if you have HDB Tusk, Gholdengo can still just Tera Flying/Fairy and take it out your Tusk with a Make it Rain. Now you've punished yourself in non-Gholdengo matchups and lost the Ghold matchup to boot.

 

[Magcargo]

Thanks! It's a good discussion and one to be had. I'll respond in order.

I don't disagree that Heat Wave Zapdos is not the craziest thing and has other purposes, but generally I'd rather just Hurricane down an Iron Treads (which is not common in OU) since you wall it anyways (a lot of times you can just Roost as they Steel Beam and off themselves) or a Rillaboom (since this is an OHKO). TWave covers more things for the team (most notably to me is speed control for DPult and Iron Val, as well as just creating win conditions in a pinch), so I think it is generally preferable.

I don't disagree that Gholdengo isn't typically forcing you to run specific Teras. It is forcing you to run specific items/mons in the same vein that Sneasler/Moon was forcing specific Teras. Both are restrictive to teambuilding.

I mean, there are other good mons to Spinblock with. Dragapult, Sinistcha (underexplored, this is not a joke), or at least punish with Zapdos/Moltres/Rocky Helmet and set your rocks back up later (I'm a little biased here, I'll admit, as this is not a problem for me, a balance player. This is more problematic for HO). You may argue Dragapult is not a good mon to spinblock with, but I think that comes down to skill and proper prediciton.

I don't think the issue is that Gholdengo is a "good" Pokemon. I think its an AMAZING mon. Immunity to three types, many resistances, great offensive typing, nutty ability (no Encore, no TWave hax, no Taunt), and on TOP of that hazard guarantee. The question is is it too good? I think Great Tusk is also an amazing mon, as it has great role compression. But it is not wearing nearly as many hats as Gholdengo is. That is why no one is asking for Great Tusk to be suspected. It is not "too" good.

Your last example goes back to my original point. We are now forced to run HDB on Tusk when Leftovers/Rocky Helmet are much better items all around. And even if you have HDB Tusk, Gholdengo can still just Tera Flying/Fairy and take it out your Tusk with a Make it Rain. Now you've punished yourself in non-Gholdengo matchups and lost the Ghold matchup to boot.

We run Boots on Tusk because it's vulnerable to Spikes, not because of Gholdengo specifically. If Dengo was banned, I am sure Tusk would still be running Boots so it doesn't get worn down by Spikes.

 

[Ctann]

In general wouldn’t you say the metagame needs adaptation of things like HDB, rapid spin, etc, to deal with hazards in general . Gholdengo being so viable to use as a blocker is a symptom not a cause of the problem.

specific matchups like HDB tusk losing to a surprise Tera type only make sense without prediction, since in theory a +0 speed tusk no longer needs to switch out on a gholdengo and can use rapid spin against a potential switch/tera type.

 

[spin da bloc]

We run Boots on Tusk because it's vulnerable to Spikes, not because of Gholdengo specifically. If Dengo was banned, I am sure Tusk would still be running Boots so it doesn't get worn down by Spikes.

Sure, let me rephrase. HDB is a valid option on Tusk, but is generally (imo) less preferable than Leftovers/Rocky Helmet. HDB is much more prominent because of Spikes which is much more prominent because of Gholdengo. If Gholdengo gets banned, Spikes usage will lessen (I understand it will remain to some extent, creating some argument for HDB), which will lessen the need for HDB on Tusk. However, this becomes a lot more of an option/tech and a lot less of a necessity.

In the same vein, Cinderace is currently very prevalent because of Gholdengo. If Gholdengo is banned, Cinderace is not nearly as mandatory as the majority of its role is to click Court Change. It is still a valid pick, but you are not nearly as compelled to run it in teambuilder since Gholdengo has not centralized you towards it.

 

[spin da bloc]

In general wouldn’t you say the metagame needs adaptation of things like HDB, rapid spin, etc, to deal with hazards in general . Gholdengo being so viable to use as a blocker is a symptom not a cause of the problem.

specific matchups like HDB tusk losing to a surprise Tera type only make sense without prediction, since in theory a +0 speed tusk no longer needs to switch out on a gholdengo and can use rapid spin against a potential switch/tera type.

I think hazards have never before been at the center of the metagame as they are this gen. You could argue this is an issue of the times, idk. I think the general sentiment is that the game should be played around mons, not hazards.

Sure, I guess you could Rapid Spin into Ghold predicting a Tera, this is valid. This does create the Tera 50/50 ofc, but thats another argument to be had. At the same time...

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 294-348 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 414-487 (111.5 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

...you now might have to guess the EV spread as Bold Ghold can just eat Headlong Rush raw and OHKO you in return. But I think this is getting too far into the weeds.

I'm not necessarily saying 100% Ghold should be banned. I'm just stating the argument and sentiment of the pro-ban community as I understand it.

 

[morangotango]

I'm not... I mean... But the suspect and... God knows how many pages of discussion... How did we miss that Gliscor gets killed by an Ice type move... Gotta call up Finch maaaan he's gonna be so pissed... Went over this so many times but...

75/75 special bulk for a typing that get's super-effective by two common special types
and this thing ain't even salamence or garchomp like to be considered overpowered
i mean...goldhengo stills laughing on their faces being able to block the things out of our faces

 

[morangotango]

some bans feels like ppl being lazy about bringing new options and just banning to get rid of problems in the easiest way possible

 

[morangotango]

sneasler ban is like hawlucha being banned from XY/SM OU

 

[Finchinator]

sneasler ban is like hawlucha being banned from XY/SM OU

This is very, very incorrect.

 

[StarFalcon555]

MorangoTango, there is this very lovely thing called an "edit button" on your posts. You should try using it sometime. It's very awesome. :333

So this post doesn't get deleted for being a oneliner... how are you guys using Walking Wake right now? I feel like I see it exclusively on Sun, which is kind of a shame as I feel like sets like Scarf Flip Turn and Sub + Agility could be really fun on non-weather teams.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I think gholdengo is different to the rest, if hazards are such a massive problem for your teams why aren’t more HDB/Cinderace/tidy up being considered.

In general wouldn’t you say the metagame needs adaptation of things like HDB, rapid spin, etc, to deal with hazards in general . Gholdengo being so viable to use as a blocker is a symptom not a cause of the problem.

do… do you think those things aren't being considered? cinderace is top 10 in usage and boots are probably the most-used single item in the entire game. the most-used mon that isn't broken is a rapid spinner and is so high in usage specifically because it's a splashable spinner. it's not like these are some sort of secret tech the community hasn't uncovered. we've spent the entire generation collectively trying to figure out how to properly deal with hazards. we have scoured everything from ou to zu, and even nfe and lc, looking for some satisfactory answer to the hazard problem within the confines of the game. it doesn't exist. we've resorted to running teams with 6 boots—the most extreme possible solution—and hazards are still too overbearing. what in god's holy and unapproachable name do you want us to do?

 

[SDK03]

sneasler ban is like hawlucha being banned from XY/SM OU

Cause Hawlucha also has 130 Atk, 80/60/80 Bulk with Grassy Seed patching up the bad Defense, a wider movepool with options for hitting the Ghosts, the ability to run Switcheroo Choice sets and HDB pivot sets and a dumb 50% RNG signature move, right?

 

[Carl The Turtle]

sneasler ban is like hawlucha being banned from XY/SM OU

hi, it appears you don't understand the difference between hawlucha and sneasler, here you go:

(i had to filter out grafaiai when searching this because fucking grafaiai, a mon that never uses unburden and is more utility than anything, has higher attack than goddamn hawlucha does)
To make it abundantly clear, Sneasler has the statline of Weavile, a mon previously OU by usage, with some speed traded for attack, a move with a 30% chance to incapacitate an opposing mon to some extent, and an actual really good ability that completely negates it's slightly worse speed instead of choosing between pickpocket and pressure. It is significantly better than Hawlucha was in any previous generation.

 

[spin da bloc]

75/75 special bulk for a typing that get's super-effective by two common special types
and this thing ain't even salamence or garchomp like to be considered overpowered
i mean...goldhengo stills laughing on their faces being able to block the things out of our faces

75/75 is pretty bulky considering Gliscor always invests in HP and half the time goes 252+ in SpDef.

it doesn’t matter if Water and Ice are primarily special moves if they don’t exist in the meta. What Water/Ice moves are you running? Greninja who gets dunked on by Rillaboom, star of the month? Ice Beam Slowking-G who can Gliscor can either EQ for a KO (depending on health) or just Protect scout and switch out of? Milotic Scald which is definitely not a OHKO? This is not even considering that Gliscor is going to be partnered with a fat Water type like Moltic itself to deal with these things anyways.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

hi, it appears you don't understand the difference between hawlucha and sneasler, here you go:
View attachment 572900
(i had to filter out grafaiai when searching this because fucking grafaiai, a mon that never uses unburden and is more utility than anything, has higher attack than goddamn hawlucha does)
To make it abundantly clear, Sneasler has the statline of Weavile, a mon previously OU by usage, with some speed traded for attack, a move with a 30% chance to incapacitate an opposing mon to some extent, and an actual really good ability that completely negates it's slightly worse speed instead of choosing between pickpocket and pressure. It is significantly better than Hawlucha was in any previous generation.

i'd just like to point out that weavile wasn't just "ou by usage". it was honestly borderline last gen because of the absolutely deadly combo of triple axel and knock off, plus the discovery of beat up as legit tech for it. basically, what i'm saying is, the line has a history of this sort of nonsense

 

[That_Dwayneee]

I think hazards have never before been at the center of the metagame as they are this gen. You could argue this is an issue of the times, idk. I think the general sentiment is that the game should be played around mons, not hazards.

I mean they definitely have, gen 2, 3, and 4 are to this day very hazard-centric metas, with cloyster being top 3 in gsc, and skarm being top 2 and 5 in adv and dpp respectively. There is a core difference here, though. Gen 2 only had spikes stackable to one layer, meaning that spinning is far less needed. Another thing is that the spinblockers aren't as good at blocking spin in these gens. In gen 2 golem and starmie are both very good into gengar, with golem being like tusk in the tusk v ghold mu, only slower but entirely unconcerned about air balloon, and starmie having stab psychic, in gen 3 starmie and claydol both have stab psychic, starmie doesn't use psychic often but it threatens both skarmory and gengar with a 2hko from hydro pump on its offensive set, gen 4 is the closest we have to a true spikes stacking metagame here, with starmie being notably worse this gen than previous ones, however it still threatens skarm in the same way it did in the gen prior, with the rotom forms being guaranteed 2hkod by hydro pump after rocks.

There's more to this though as gens 3 and 4 also had magneton as a way to guaranteed limit the number of spikes that skarmory can put up, and magneton in these gens was legitimately really good - in adv it's ranked in C1 rank above milotic and heracross, and in dpp it's ranked in B3, one spot above it's evolution actually.

Superman teams did exist in these gens, the team originated in gen 3 and gen 4 has clefable ranked higher than skarm, but if you wanted to build fat it wasn't a necessary thing to be packing superman, you had many other options.

It's not like there isn't precedent to this situation we have with gholdengo either, in gen 5 excadrill was unbanned as a spinner that could actually kill jellicent, because hazard stacking teams were too dominant. We shouldn't unban giratina to defog, obviously, but we have precedent that when hazards get this bad we don't just deal we take action.

TLDR:
Hazards big scary in gen 2, 3, and 4 - but tiers had better options to keep them in check. Gen 5 had to unban an uber to deal with hazards, giving us precedent for banning ghold due to its shenanigans with hazard teams.

 

[MotherHorse]

Cause Hawlucha also has 130 Atk, 80/60/80 Bulk with Grassy Seed patching up the bad Defense, a wider movepool with options for hitting the Ghosts, the ability to run Switcheroo Choice sets and HDB pivot sets and a dumb 50% RNG signature move, right?

Don't forget that Hawlucha in XY/SM OU also doesn't have the game mechanic of switching into a type that can potentially let you beat the few answers it may have once had.

 

[SwaggySammy44]

sneasler ban is like hawlucha being banned from XY/SM OU

Except sneasler has better stats, a better movepool, better STABS, etc

 

[Ctann]

I guess what my perspective boils down to is that you can plan for and adapt to things like gholdengo.

it’s not as straightforward with other banned threats like sneasler, roaring moon, etc. that’s because despite planning, you have at best a tight bottleneck option to deal with them.

then there’s gambit, where you have encore, trick, etc in theory. But it can surprise through checks or trade 3 for 1.

do… do you think those things aren't being considered? cinderace is top 10 in usage and boots are probably the most-used single item in the entire game. the most-used mon that isn't broken is a rapid spinner and is so high in usage specifically because it's a splashable spinner. it's not like these are some sort of secret tech the community hasn't uncovered. we've spent the entire generation collectively trying to figure out how to properly deal with hazards. we have scoured everything from ou to zu, and even nfe and lc, looking for some satisfactory answer to the hazard problem within the confines of the game. it doesn't exist. we've resorted to running teams with 6 boots—the most extreme possible solution—and hazards are still too overbearing. what in god's holy and unapproachable name do you want us to do?

yeah and they’re working as intended, there needs to be some willingness to adapt a team slightly if the anti-hazard removal is performing well against it.

 

[SittinGamer]

Slightly related to hazards, I feel I am coming to the regrettable conclusion that the general best Chomp is bulky hazard Chomp if you don't have a team which can make use of the swords dance scale shot sweeping set. Some mons like Clefable and Enamorous are annoying as anything, but Dragon Tail feels like a really decent move with threats like formerly Sneasler, Zamazenta, Seed users, as well as Booster mons safe for Valiant. Given how much mons naturally get chipped by rough skin/rocky helmet combination and the general forced movement of Dragon Tail, I've found Chomp to not really be individually winning me games with one key play, but rather keeps momentum and prevents switch in win cons in his HO meta.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Not even going to bother quoting due to the sheer uninformed nature of it, but implying Sneasler was anywhere near healthy in its unburdened state due to the sheer power and speed is ridiculous. Especially when factoring in the team would be built around it with Rillaboom providing support, effectively covering weaknesses it'd otherwise have.

Anyway, that nonsense aside.

To add my humble 2c, even outside of Ghold's ability to keep hazards up I find the whole innate power and longevity as a pokemon it has to be the looming shadow outside of the whole hazard blocking. Sure, it sucks to not remove spikes every single game but the fact it can take SE hits due to being able to invest in bulk and heal it back off soon as it can force you out unless you're sure that second hit can finish the job sucks. Barring either a boosted hit or the like, of course.

I find it just a tad ridiculous that such a utility heavy pokemon is also a set up sweeper in the same breath. If Tusk comes in at a bad point I need to sack a weak mon to let it reduce its defenses via CC/HLR so I can reliably revenge it. But if Ghold comes in, I dread having to try and hope it isn't so bulky that it lives thru the hit and just decides to mash buttons at me until it dies or forces a switch and gets to heal up.

Especially when one "Oh surely this will kill it" misplay results in it getting said free turn or losing a check. And that's before tera lets it do even worse. If it was JUST a spinblocker I'd be whatever, but being unable to encore, confuse, hell just debuff it in general with entire moves on top of its defensive and offensive profile feels... Overwhelming at times. Especially when I'm a rather big fan of having teams with these moves to specifically handle a select number of threats.