Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Finchinator

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:Baxcalibur: -- Do not unban

Bax was quickbanned very early with an insane margin throughout the council and community. It will have access to all of the same things and I’m not convinced the dynamic will change. If we truly identify new elements of counterplay to it, maybe a retest into a stable tier, but freeing it right now seems ill advised.

:Gliscor: -- Unban

Gliscor absolutely deserves another shot after being banned via close suspect vote during a few weeks of contention throughout the community. I can see it sticking or potentially going again, but it was an easy vote to reintroduce.

:Roaring Moon: -- Unban

Roaring Moon was another close ban via suspect last time around and it really only got one move between then and when it was fine in OU prior to DLC. I can see it still being too strong, but perhaps more priority and pressure will minimize its antics.

:Sneasler: -- Do not unban

Sneasler may have more scattered counterplay and I wouldn’t mind trying it again too much, but it never added anything to the tier besides soaking Toxic Spikes while it was a huge nuisance in the teambuilder, had games boil down to Tera timing around Unburden variants, and even occasional Dire Claw fuckery was a painful touch as well. It seems best to not have this in what we hope to be an eventually balanced metagame.

:Urshifu: -- Do not unban

Urshifus are just too potent with all they have within their arsenal between potent STAB, priority, boosting, item, ability, and so on. I do think Rapid is the less broken of the two, but even then I don’t want to see it resurface anytime soon. It was insane last time around and I do not see a ton changing. Having a tolerable speed tier can hold things down a bit, but it ravages any balance and rarely has any switch-ins.

:Volcarona: -- Unban

Volcarona absolutely deserves another shot after only being banned after a controversial quickban. Many people were glad to not deal with its antics and I am among them, but it’s only fair to see it through once more.

:Zamazenta-Crowned: -- Unban

Zamazenta-Crowned probably could’ve been a suspect like Volcarona, too. It barely got quick-banned last time and I wonder if it’ll even be that much better than Zamazenta-Hero as it lacks the item slot and a ton of immediate breaking power. It’s also a tad slower. I can see it being too much, but curious and happy to handle it aggressively if it drops.

:Darkrai: -- Unban

Darkrai I think may be insane once people optimize strategies with it and we will have to be aggressive around it, but it received substantial support in the community survey to drop and I don’t want to entirely ignore that, so giving it a shot seems appropriate. Not too sold on this vote, but we shall see.
 


:Baxcalibur: -- Do not unban

Bax was quickbanned very early with an insane margin throughout the council and community. It will have access to all of the same things and I’m not convinced the dynamic will change. If we truly identify new elements of counterplay to it, maybe a retest into a stable tier, but freeing it right now seems ill advised.

:Gliscor: -- Unban

Gliscor absolutely deserves another shot after being banned via close suspect vote during a few weeks of contention throughout the community. I can see it sticking or potentially going again, but it was an easy vote to reintroduce.

:Roaring Moon: -- Unban

Roaring Moon was another close ban via suspect last time around and it really only got one move between then and when it was fine in OU prior to DLC. I can see it still being too strong, but perhaps more priority and pressure will minimize its antics.

:Sneasler: -- Do not unban

Sneasler may have more scattered counterplay and I wouldn’t mind trying it again too much, but it never added anything to the tier besides soaking Toxic Spikes while it was a huge nuisance in the teambuilder, had games boil down to Tera timing around Unburden variants, and even occasional Dire Claw fuckery was a painful touch as well. It seems best to not have this in what we hope to be an eventually balanced metagame.

:Urshifu: -- Do not unban

Urshifus are just too potent with all they have within their arsenal between potent STAB, priority, boosting, item, ability, and so on. I do think Rapid is the less broken of the two, but even then I don’t want to see it resurface anytime soon. It was insane last time around and I do not see a ton changing. Having a tolerable speed tier can hold things down a bit, but it ravages any balance and rarely has any switch-ins.

:Volcarona: -- Unban

Volcarona absolutely deserves another shot after only being banned after a controversial quickban. Many people were glad to not deal with its antics and I am among them, but it’s only fair to see it through once more.

:Zamazenta-Crowned: -- Unban

Zamazenta-Crowned probably could’ve been a suspect like Volcarona, too. It barely got quick-banned last time and I wonder if it’ll even be that much better than Zamazenta-Hero as it lacks the item slot and a ton of immediate breaking power. It’s also a tad slower. I can see it being too much, but curious and happy to handle it aggressively if it drops.

:Darkrai: -- Unban

Darkrai I think may be insane once people optimize strategies with it and we will have to be aggressive around it, but it received substantial support in the community survey to drop and I don’t want to entirely ignore that, so giving it a shot seems appropriate. Not too sold on this vote, but we shall see.
What about Solgaleo? It got a bit of traction for a potential unban in the last couple of weeks.
Could it be?
 
Ursaluna got the lowest qualified results god bless that mon is a fucking demon that should never scrape OU again

Interesting about Kyurem coming down, I wonder how it'll fair
I'm wondering how kyurem will fare too, It could either a more broken bax, or it could be a healthy presence like zamazenta. It all just depends on what it gets this gen and what it loses
 

Welli0u

is a Top Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Two-Time Past SCL Championis a Past WCoP Champion
World Defender
No pokemon should be unbanned without a suspect test because a DLC comes out. They were banned for a good reason and it’s impossible to predict their impact on the new metagame at all. Just seems like the worst timing to ask ourselves if Darkrai has its place in current OU but maybe that’s just my opinion. Not to mention there’s a new tera we don’t know about.
 
understand but dislike Gliscor, wholeheartedly disagree on Zama-C and Darkrai, agree on all others.

I don't expect gliscor's shenanigans to be much more bearable in the future meta, and the effects of having such a great hazard-setter on a meta that can't remove hazards is thowing oil onto a looming fire. Unless DLC2 brings Defog TM or we ban Gholdengo (and that may not help enough anyway), Gliscor will prove to be too big a problem for this tier if not by its own properties, by the synergies it causes. Understand retesting it given it wasn't really a broken mon per se, but more a broken dynamic, but I don't trust DLC2 to bring much hazard removal options and that will likely make us look at the scorpion again.

Darkrai, I have little to add to Finch's comment. It looks less broken on paper and random discussions than it will prove to be, all the more when it's about as bulky as Clefable (reminder that 70/90/90 bulk is only low for Ubers standards) while almost as offensively strong as Flutter Mane. But I agree in thinking it will prove to be too powerful once people start experimenting on it, all the more with Tera. I would be more open to the idea of testing it without Tera, but I expect it to be very much broken with it.

And Zama-C, a mon with 128 Speed that can pretty much nullify all physical attackers on an opponent's team and use them as offensive/defensive setup fodder is not ok. Even Zama-Hero's ID/BP pressure can feel overwhelming on some teams, and Zama-C brings STAB Steel to make sure that Clefable and Hatterene are no longer checks into it, along with even higher special defense. Faring even worse against Moltres and Iron Moth is not enough of a downside to justify how much better this thing plays the ID/BP game and not only expect, but hope that it gets banned back to Ubers ASAP.
 
I am happy about these results, except Bax and sneasler, who are completely unbalanced and always will be.
Bax even without tera, would be completely broken and will bring back Aurora veil in the metagame.
This mon has no counterplay.
Sneasler shouldn't be unbanned, except if Tera is banned. This mon is too good with unburden + tera.
Without it, dire claw is annoying anyway.
 

CobsonYaoi

formerly Holesum420
I don't agree with the the unbans for Roaring Moon, Zamazenta-Crowned, and Darkrai but I do agree with everything else. I used to use a team with Roaring Moon and whenever I got a Dragon Dance it was all over for my opponent. I hope Gholdengo will be suspected since it's why Gliscor is so annoying to deal with.

Also who the fuck suggested that Solgaleo should be unbanned that's just plain stupid.
 
Talonflame is literally a dedicated check that succeeds at its job more often than it fails, the improving and adapting has been done, it's just that to add Talonflame and respond to Rillaboom's pressure takes up a valuable team slot that makes matchups vs other threatening breakers all the more problematic. There's also the fact that responding to Rillaboom isn't just adding a Rillaboom counter, it's also having a rock solid Heatran answer, waterpon answer, and Hatterene answer that can cover both stored power and psyshock sets, and doing that all with just 1 Tera. and if they also have another Tera required/preferable Pokémon like Ghold, Valiant, or Glowking there's very little you can realistically do

"Just play around it" is definitely easier said than done with a nuclear breaker that has the option to spam knock off, you're going to have to make a little more effort than just saying that
1702390716866.png

This checks waterpon too while also not caring at all about gambit if you play it well. It's a you issue that you can't find things to beat rillaboom, you could even go more memey and do sap sipper trapper azumarill like people were doing in SM OU for a bit when it was CG (anyone else remember when that was considered the only viable azu set?)

You people are so dumb. Genuinely. Baxcal and roaring moon and the rest are whatever, but anyone who actually voted to let sneasler down is not to be listened to on any mons related opinion ever. I don't care how good you actually are at the game, I don't care if you've won SPL 5 times in a row, letting Sneasler down is like deciding that this tier wasn't fucked enough already. There is nothing in that list of returning pokemon that I can see on serebii that even remotely handles it. Gholdengo doesn't handle it, Zaptres are fake checks at best and useless if you run Gunk Shot over CC, Dondozo is the literal only thing in the entire metagame that can deal with it, and that relies entirely on not getting crit twice by CC or dicked on by Dire Claw shenanigans if you're running a bad set. This is also while GLISCOR IS IN THE META. AKA THE FREEST DOUBLE SD YOU CAN GET. Why on EARTH would ANYONE EVER VOTE TO LET THIS THING BACK INTO THE TIER. It outspeeds the ENTIRE meta, can't be dealt with by the thing you would think deals with it in Gliscor, and the only hard wall it has is stall specific. You people are out of your mind.
 
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You people are so dumb. Genuinely. Baxcal and roaring moon and the rest are whatever, but anyone who actually voted to let sneasler down is not to be listened to on any mons related opinion ever. I don't care how good you actually are at the game, I don't care if you've won SPL 5 times in a row, letting Sneasler down is like deciding that this tier wasn't fucked enough already. There is nothing in that list of returning pokemon that I can see on serebii that even remotely handles it. Gholdengo doesn't handle it, Zaptres are fake checks at best and useless if you run Gunk Shot over CC, Dondozo is the literal only thing in the entire metagame that can deal with it, and that relies entirely on not getting crit twice by CC or dicked on by Dire Claw shenanigans if you're running a bad set. This is also while GLISCOR IS IN THE META. AKA THE FREEST DOUBLE SD YOU CAN GET. Why on EARTH would ANYONE EVER VOTE TO LET THIS THING BACK INTO THE TIER. It outspeeds the ENTIRE meta, can't be dealt with by the thing you would think deals with it in Gliscor, and the only hard wall it has is stall specific. You people are out of your mind.
I think u need to relax a tiny bit, friend
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
You people are so dumb. Genuinely. Baxcal and roaring moon and the rest are whatever, but anyone who actually voted to let sneasler down is not to be listened to on any mons related opinion ever. I don't care how good you actually are at the game, I don't care if you've won SPL 5 times in a row, letting Sneasler down is like deciding that this tier wasn't fucked enough already. There is nothing in that list of returning pokemon that I can see on serebii that even remotely handles it. Gholdengo doesn't handle it, Zaptres are fake checks at best and useless if you run Gunk Shot over CC, Dondozo is the literal only thing in the entire metagame that can deal with it, and that relies entirely on not getting crit twice by CC or dicked on by Dire Claw shenanigans if you're running a bad set. This is also while GLISCOR IS IN THE META. AKA THE FREEST DOUBLE SD YOU CAN GET. Why on EARTH would ANYONE EVER VOTE TO LET THIS THING BACK INTO THE TIER. It outspeeds the ENTIRE meta, can't be dealt with by the thing you would think deals with it in Gliscor, and the only hard wall it has is stall specific. You people are out of your mind.
Chill.
 
well, on the topic of unbanning ubers, I've got a pile more to suggest dropping:
:lugia:: It just can't do anything to defensive pokemon, anything that is immune to toxic will just straight up beat it, especially with reduced roost pp. If it gets defog back it can be a good defogger, which we are in desperate need of
:necrozma-dawn-wings: and :lunala:: crippled by their 4x ghost and dark weakness in a metagame where ghosts and darks make up 2 of the three most used pokemon in the tier. DW has no way to boost its paltry base 77 speed, limiting its offensive presense, while Lunala has less power meaning its wallbreaking isn't that strong
:groudon: :It's just great tusk, but worse hp and loses rapid spin to boost its speed. It could also enable some sun structures to become viable again, meaning the metagame has one more viable team structure, which is good. Inaccurate ground stab sucks.
:giratina:: It's dondozo minus the unaware and the great defensive typing. Defensive sets will be a great defogger that can beat gholdengo force gholdengo to go spdef. Offensive sets might seem scary until you remember that it has 5 very common weaknesses and few good resistances, which, in conjunction with its lack of a pdef boosting move, leaves it vulnerable to those aforementioned darks and ghosts.
:marshadow:: 125 attack is not the best in this meta, and 125 speed, while still good, is apparently "slow" for fellow uber darkrai. Physical ghost STAB is a lot less valuable in the generation where everything can get physical ghost stab if they so desire with Tera Blast. In addition, its typing leaves it vulnerable to premier revenge killing option(s) valiant, which isn't even ko'd by band technician sneak, and Pult.
:zygarde: (NOT :zygarde-complete:, just the regular form): 100 attack is just bad now, and with the rise of universal counterplay (i.e. encore) you have ways of checking setup sets that don't require having a typing advantage. Similar to kingambit. It's also kinda slow, needing 2 dragon dances to outrun BE valiant.
:solgaleo: :thank you for the kind suggestion apoteosis, I did neglect solgaleo in my clearly very serious post. Solgaleo struggles with having a mediocre defensive type for a defensive pokemon and having bad offensive type for an offensive pokemon. It also doesn't have any setup, which means it does no job very well. Furthermore, its utility options are lacking so much, it doesn't even have stealth rock! I fully expect it to drop to UU if we can get it dropped.
:dialga:: Gets completely folded by any defensive steels, including gholdengo, who is very good. Defensive sets have no reliable recovery, and the rocks resistance is less relevant now that the main hazard is spikes. You can't use him as a check to dragons because he is chunked so hard by all the dragon moves. For example, specs pult 2HKOs offensive sets with both draco and shadow ball, while spdef dialga can only ever switch into draco once, because it gets 2HKO'd.

If anyone disagrees with this, they must be either trolling or completely stupid, because there's no way I made any mistakes whatsoever in judging these pokemon's viability.
 
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well, on the topic of unbanning ubers, I've got a pile more to suggest dropping:
:lugia:: It just can't do anything to defensive pokemon, anything that is immune to toxic will just straight up beat it, especially with reduced roost pp. If it gets defog back it can be a good defogger, which we are in desperate need of
:necrozma-dawn-wings: and :lunala:: crippled by their 4x ghost and dark weakness in a metagame where ghosts and darks make up 2 of the three most used pokemon in the tier. DW has no way to boost its paltry base 77 speed, limiting its offensive presense, while Lunala has less power meaning its wallbreaking isn't that strong
:groudon: :It's just great tusk, but worse hp and loses rapid spin to boost its speed. It could also enable some sun structures to become viable again, meaning the metagame has one more viable team structure, which is good. Inaccurate ground stab sucks.
:giratina:: It's dondozo minus the unaware and the great defensive typing. Defensive sets will be a great defogger that can beat gholdengo force gholdengo to go spdef. Offensive sets might seem scary until you remember that it has 5 very common weaknesses and few good resistances, which, in conjunction with its lack of a pdef boosting move, leaves it vulnerable to those aforementioned darks and ghosts.
:marshadow:: 125 attack is not the best in this meta, and 125 speed, while still good, is apparently "slow" for fellow uber darkrai. Physical ghost STAB is a lot less valuable in the generation where everything can get physical ghost stab if they so desire with Tera Blast. In addition, its typing leaves it vulnerable to premier revenge killing option(s) valiant, which isn't even ko'd by band technician sneak, and Pult.
:zygarde: (NOT :zygarde-complete:, just the regular form): 100 attack is just bad now, and with the rise of universal counterplay (i.e. encore) you have ways of checking setup sets that don't require having a typing advantage. Similar to kingambit. It's also kinda slow, needing 2 dragon dances to outrun BE valiant.

If anyone disagrees with this, they must be either trolling or completely stupid, because there's no way I made any mistakes whatsoever in judging these pokemon's viability.
Poor :solgaleo: it doesn't even qualify as bait material lol
Release it #freeSolgaleo
 
Personally I’m excited for the upcoming chaos before things settle, just seems like a DLC2 tradition now.

Hoping Deoxys comes back too. Defense was always borderline unbannable in past gens and powercreep plus the bevy of ghost and dark (and U-Turn) just makes it seem much less broken than it was in the past. The others are probably all too much though (maybe not speed?)
 
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