Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[FCKNfuego]

Testing Gliscor before Ghold is like throwing bandaids at bullet wounds. Just gonna keep bleeding...

Hazards have been problematic before Gliscor and will still be problematic if it's gone.

 

[manyproblems]

OU only has a Gliscor and Ghold problem because there is an entry hazard problem. These two go, and we're back to Tusk on every team, and forever being forced to run hazards and a remover. Kingambit is likely only suspect worthy because of the tera problem. Kingambit goes and Pokemon are still checking and sweeping teams they shouldnt because of tera. Would it hurt to look at the root cause before going to the band aid well?

 

[Karxrida]

I agree that Gliscor should be tested before Gholdengo. Outside of me having to beat the "Defog is very likely a TM in DLC2 and Excadrill is coming, just wait like a month please so we don't waste time" drum again, Gliscor is strangling the meta far more. To add to what Finch said, it's pigeonholing Tusk sets, limiting its effectiveness even when Gliscor isn't in a battle and making it harder to act as a glue.

As an aside, spinblockers have been a thing since the dawn of time and Ghold is just another one of those.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Do you think that clefable will manage to survive in OU by the end of the month?

It has got competition with alomomamomomamamomola when it comes to wish passing and there are other stronger fairy types like hatterene

 

[Finchinator]

Do you think that clefable will manage to survive in OU by the end of the month?

It has got competition with alomomamomomamamomola when it comes to wish passing and there are other stronger fairy types like hatterene

The thing is that none of these are perfect comparisons due to the abilities and full movepool Clefable has to offer, which gives it a fairly distinct niche. Not going to vouch for ladder usage as honestly that’s more of a crapshoot, but Clefable is very viable.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Clefable is, like, the ultimate jack-of-all-trades.

Just a super versatile kit combined with an incredibly useful ability in Magic Guard.

 

[pika pal]

If you tailor a counter (Sub Balloon/levitate/flying, Bronzong lol) then, by forcing you to run a suboptimal set, Gliscor is generating value just by existing.

Just gonna throw this out there, but there is a Gold Standard example of a good Balloon(or Tera Flying) Mon that ignores basically everything the standard Gliscor does while using it for set-up fodder.

This makes me even more curious which should go first because Gholdengo not only exacerbates the hazard issue by making Gliscor Spikes easy to drop and hard to remove, but itself functions as a Russian Roulette check to the Scorpion depending on what moves it's running (Balloon exploits sets without Knock off while normal/Popped Balloon Gholdengo basically requires Gliscor have Earthquake) given how tight the "chooseable" moves on most sets are.

"Broken checking broken" jokes aside, it does make me wonder how much better or worse the G's are if one is lost since they simultaneously pair-up with but can also exploit the other so it may not be a strict improvement if one goes (Hazard stack goes back to worrying about both Blocker and Setter having to be wary of Tusk rather than one eating it at no effort).

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

"Broken checking broken" jokes aside, it does make me wonder how much better or worse the G's are if one is lost since they simultaneously pair-up with but can also exploit the other so it may not be a strict improvement if one goes (Hazard stack goes back to worrying about both Blocker and Setter having to be wary of Tusk rather than one eating it at no effort).

they're both worse without the other, but not by enough to prevent either one individually from being banworthy (yes, i'm finally on the ban ghold train). in my experience, gliscor can operate well on gholdless teams, even against teams with corv on them, and it's definitely the bigger problem of the two as long as they coexist. for gholdengo, we have the benefit of being able to look back to a meta without gliscor and see that ghold hazard stack was problematic back then too, though less so than it is with gliscor, and even without gliscor we'd have to deal with ribombee webs, hamurott, the resurgence of ting-lu, and plenty more hazard stacking, so they both need to go. but gliscor needs to go first—even without ghold, empoleon functions very well alongside gliscor as a defog punisher and mortal spin blocker and has the benefit of having perfect defensive synergy with it, and of course regular spinblockers still exist, so we'd still have similar problems

 

[awyp]

Clef still does everything but tera has made it less viable in the sense where it was always a barely a wall in terms of statistical comparisons to other walls. If someone offensive teras, you can usually 2HKO Clefable in any sense which kinda just makes it not as valuable as past generations in my opinon, especially with Moonlight PP dropping to 8.

Great Tusk, Valiant, Roaring Moon vs Clefable

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tera Ground Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 214-252 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Ehmcee]

I agree that Gliscor should be tested before Gholdengo. Outside of me having to beat the "Defog is very likely a TM in DLC2 and Excadrill is coming, just wait like a month please so we don't waste time" drum again, Gliscor is strangling the meta far more. To add to what Finch said, it's pigeonholing Tusk sets, limiting its effectiveness even when Gliscor isn't in a battle and making it harder to act as a glue.

As an aside, spinblockers have been a thing since the dawn of time and Ghold is just another one of those.

To say Ghold is "just another spinblocker" is the understatement of the century.

It's by far the second best spinblocker in OU history (behind Mega Sableye), with reliable recovery, an incredible defensive typing, as well as you know, blocking all forms of removal.

Gliscor's viability is a product of it's environment, with Gholdengo existing being right at the front of it. You talk about Gliscor incoveniencing Tusk's due to needing to run Ice Spinner while ignoring the fact that Gholdengo single handedly makes Corviknight, Mandibuzz and arguably Scizor unviable.

Anyway, Gholdengo>Gliscor suspect plz :P

 

[Endrism]

As a self-proclaimed mid as hell mid ladder gimmick player, heres my opinion absolutely nobody asked for:

This thing feels like Gen8 Lando with Poison Heal. Stealth Rocks, lack of 50% recovery move, no great flying stab, great pivot, its the same mon but with the added deal of Poison Heal in exchange for defog. I don't think its necessarily broken, but it is in a centralizing position in the meta. Its real problem lies in a part below.

Really talking about all of the hazards meta here. I'm very on the fence about it. On the one hand Ghold being able to stop nearly all hazard control in its tracks feels hard to deal with, but I've been playing a lot of boots so sometimes I just don't notice it. I feel like Balance teams around CM Magic Guard Clefable + Boots Support mons could end up being really nice once the big threats are banned.

Gross. Beyond gross. Tera Flying, Tera Steel, Tera BUG WOOO TERA BUG, but even without tera this thing is just gross. Incredible coverage, great speed tier. Protosynthesis. It needs to go.

This I'm also on the fence about but I'm leaning over the side of ban. Supreme Overlord is such a bonkers ability. With all 5 boosts it literally becomes Gorilla Tactics without the drawbacks. Now it can be dealt with, Dondozo means that SD sets cant do enough to beat it, Great Tusk has just enough bulk to eat its hits and threaten a smooth KO, Any pokemon that involves Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch instantly flattens it like Squidward under the steam roller. OR AT LEAST IT WOULD BE DEALT WITH IF IT WASN'T FOR..

TERASTALIZATION

This is the big kahuna. I used to be pro-tera, but I've been counter tera'd with dogwater tera types I never saw coming so many times that I've changed teams. We need to at least restrict it because it is absolutely the enabler of chaos right now. I know people don't want the Gen9 gimmick to get banned, and it is an AWESOME gimmick, but its too much. In the past smogon has always said to ban the enabler and not the abuser, so why are we now making an exception for Tera?
Espathra with Tera Fairy, Ogerpon-Hearthflame with Embody Aspect, Regieleki with Tera Ice, Volcarona with Tera Ground, and now Roaring Moon with Tera Flying and Steel (AND BUG WOOOO TERA BUG MOON) all abused tera to deal with any or all checks they have.
Annihilape defensive tera'd to get free set up and Rage Fist boosts.
Baxcalibur and Kingambit self tera to become overwhelmingly strong to the point that resists and neutrals are no longer enough to bulk hits.
Gliscor wouldn't be half as bad if you didn't get tera water'd the moment you tried to ice spinner the thing.
All of these pokemon were at least heavily aided in their rise to power and for most of them to getting banned. Why are we consistently banning the abusers and not the enabler like we always have? I'm so sick of getting counter tera'd in the most unbelievably dumb ways possible, I want a healthy metagame for gods sake.

Please OU council, retest tera, it has to go.

 

[Karxrida]

To say Ghold is "just another spinblocker" is the understatement of the century.

It's by far the second best spinblocker in OU history (behind Mega Sableye), with reliable recovery, an incredible defensive typing, as well as you know, blocking all forms of removal.

Gliscor's viability is a product of it's environment, with Gholdengo existing being right at the front of it. You talk about Gliscor incoveniencing Tusk's due to needing to run Ice Spinner while ignoring the fact that Gholdengo single handedly makes Corviknight, Mandibuzz and arguably Scizor unviable.

Anyway, Gholdengo>Gliscor suspect plz :P

ORAS Mega Sableye was magnitudes worse than Gholdengo. It was basically unkillable, had Knock Off and Wisp, completely monopolized hazards by shutting down the opponent from setting up their own in addition to its spin/Defog blocking, and warped the meta to the point where there was just The One Stall Team. Fuck that thing. Ghold can actually be dealt with and Tusk is capable of 1v1ing before spinning. It's still good, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's on the same level of Mega Sableye.

Mandibuzz has issues outside of Ghold and vanilla Scizor has been hurting since arguably as far back as ORAS due to power creep. Gliscor inconveniencing Tusk matters more imo since Tusk is an otherwise versatile glue mon that's supposed to open up teambuilding.

 

[658Greninja]

As a self-proclaimed mid as hell mid ladder gimmick player, heres my opinion absolutely nobody asked for:

This thing feels like Gen8 Lando with Poison Heal. Stealth Rocks, lack of 50% recovery move, no great flying stab, great pivot, its the same mon but with the added deal of Poison Heal in exchange for defog. I don't think its necessarily broken, but it is in a centralizing position in the meta. Its real problem lies in a part below.

Really talking about all of the hazards meta here. I'm very on the fence about it. On the one hand Ghold being able to stop nearly all hazard control in its tracks feels hard to deal with, but I've been playing a lot of boots so sometimes I just don't notice it. I feel like Balance teams around CM Magic Guard Clefable + Boots Support mons could end up being really nice once the big threats are banned.

Gross. Beyond gross. Tera Flying, Tera Steel, Tera BUG WOOO TERA BUG, but even without tera this thing is just gross. Incredible coverage, great speed tier. Protosynthesis. It needs to go.

This I'm also on the fence about but I'm leaning over the side of ban. Supreme Overlord is such a bonkers ability. With all 5 boosts it literally becomes Gorilla Tactics without the drawbacks. Now it can be dealt with, Dondozo means that SD sets cant do enough to beat it, Great Tusk has just enough bulk to eat its hits and threaten a smooth KO, Any pokemon that involves Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch instantly flattens it like Squidward under the steam roller. OR AT LEAST IT WOULD BE DEALT WITH IF IT WASN'T FOR..

TERASTALIZATION

This is the big kahuna. I used to be pro-tera, but I've been counter tera'd with dogwater tera types I never saw coming so many times that I've changed teams. We need to at least restrict it because it is absolutely the enabler of chaos right now. I know people don't want the Gen9 gimmick to get banned, and it is an AWESOME gimmick, but its too much. In the past smogon has always said to ban the enabler and not the abuser, so why are we now making an exception for Tera?
Espathra with Tera Fairy, Ogerpon-Hearthflame with Embody Aspect, Regieleki with Tera Ice, Volcarona with Tera Ground, and now Roaring Moon with Tera Flying and Steel (AND BUG WOOOO TERA BUG MOON) all abused tera to deal with any or all checks they have.
Annihilape defensive tera'd to get free set up and Rage Fist boosts.
Baxcalibur and Kingambit self tera to become overwhelmingly strong to the point that resists and neutrals are no longer enough to bulk hits.
Gliscor wouldn't be half as bad if you didn't get tera water'd the moment you tried to ice spinner the thing.
All of these pokemon were at least heavily aided in their rise to power and for most of them to getting banned. Why are we consistently banning the abusers and not the enabler like we always have? I'm so sick of getting counter tera'd in the most unbelievably dumb ways possible, I want a healthy metagame for gods sake.

Please OU council, retest tera, it has to go.

I would rather wait for DLC2 to retest Tera cause this mechanic is extremely controversial and divided, it would take lot of support from the community to get it suspected. Also the fact that there is such limited time and other elephants in the room like Gambit and Ghold, I feel it is better to wait for DLC2, otherwise we end up making an entire thread of us doing absolutely nothing but repeating the same arguments in a loophole.

 

[Endrism]

I would rather wait for DLC2 to retest Tera cause this mechanic is extremely controversial and divided, it would take lot of support from the community to get it suspected. Also the fact that there is such limited time and other elephants in the room like Gambit and Ghold, I feel it is better to wait for DLC2, otherwise we end up making an entire thread of us doing absolutely nothing but repeating the same arguments in a loophole.

If we ban the enablers first then we'll just end up in DLC2 with people requesting like 7 different mons get retested now that teras gone, along with any new mons that are also busted with tera, and even once DLC2 is a thing, its not going to change the mons that are already busted because of tera's influence. I see no reason to keep it around.

 

[Ehmcee]

ORAS Mega Sableye was magnitudes worse than Gholdengo. It was basically unkillable, had Knock Off and Wisp, completely monopolized hazards by shutting down the opponent from setting up their own in addition to its spin/Defog blocking, and warped the meta to the point where there was just The One Stall Team. Fuck that thing. Ghold can actually be dealt with and Tusk is capable of 1v1ing before spinning. It's still good, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's on the same level of Mega Sableye.

The biggest issue with Gholdengo isn't necessarely that it can be beat by Great Tusk, but the fact that it can entirely block hazard removal, multiple times per game if it has Air Balloon as well.

Gholdengo alone is the reason webs has become such an issue, you wouldn't find Ribombee being used this much without it.

The main problem is once Tusk gets in, it's unable to remove hazards if Gholdengo still exists, players will sack Gholdengo in a heartbeat if it means keeping hazards up, which then allows them to head into their sweeper that also beats Tusk, forcing you to switch out and get a safe opportunity to get it back in. This sequence is entirely too common.


While i can't necessarily hypothesize how good Mandibuzz and Scizor would become in a Gholdengo-less meta (Corv would def be great), they'd sure be a hell of a lot more useful then they are now.

 

[cyclonez_]

If we ban the enablers first then we'll just end up in DLC2 with people requesting like 7 different mons get retested now that teras gone, along with any new mons that are also busted with tera, and even once DLC2 is a thing, its not going to change the mons that are already busted because of tera's influence. I see no reason to keep it around.

Tera getting banned would almost certainly result in an unban wave of several Pokemon that are made worse by Tera. There's no reason to suspect test Tera-less Eleki back into the tier, for an extreme example. Without Tera, Regieleki is in no way too broken or overcentralizing for OU.

This is speculation, but it would basically be a hard-reset of the meta to the point where it is reasonable and feasible to free some of the Ubers, with the knowledge that they're going to be watched closely to see if they do the same things they did to get banned. We'd almost certainly get Eleki and Volc back (as much as I hate the moth), and I think there's a few others that could be worth looking at to see how they'd fit in a Tera-less DLC2 meta, such as Espathra, Annihilape, and Palafin (side note since some people might get mad at me: Ape and Palafin probably go back to Ubers but, imo, they're worth a shot since we haven't seen them since the first couple months and the first week respectively, and at that point we'll have had Home and 2 DLCs worth of content, and a year's worth of innovation, and the generational mechanic banned--it's barely even the same metagame they got banned from).

Obviously, this is assuming Tera gets banned in the suspect, which is not a guarantee.

tl;dr the council wouldn't waste our time re-testing eleki and friends into the tier

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

In the past smogon has always said to ban the enabler and not the abuser, so why are we now making an exception for Tera?

this isn't actually true. modern tiering action tends to target abusers first in the case of entire mechanics. the only examples of blanket bans or clauses like this that i can think of are:

• dynamax in gen 8, which would have required multiple entire types to be banned to even start resembling a balanced mechanic and which was subsequently banned from ubers too
• gems in gen 5, which i think they might have gone about all wrong
• whatever the fuck they were doing with weather in gen 5, which they definitely went about all wrong

 

[658Greninja]

If we ban the enablers first then we'll just end up in DLC2 with people requesting like 7 different mons get retested now that teras gone, along with any new mons that are also busted with tera, and even once DLC2 is a thing, its not going to change the mons that are already busted because of tera's influence. I see no reason to keep it around.

The difference is there is much more time for a Tera suspect compared to the few months we have atm. It would also be good to test Tera in the most recent as possible iteration of Gen 9 OU, so we aren’t doing so in an ever-changing meta.

Also the 19th Tera type.

 

[Morkal]

The difference is there is much more time for a Tera suspect compared to the few months we have atm. It would also be good to test Tera in the most recent as possible iteration of Gen 9 OU, so we aren’t doing so in an ever-changing meta.

Also the 19th Tera type.

I'd like to second this - we still have the undisclosed 19th Tera type coming in via the next DLC; as much as I'm pro-tera (for obvious reasons), waiting until the second DLC drops is the best course of action here before a suspect imo.

 

[UnusualBoy]

It'd be so iconic if Gliscor gets banned for doing basically what he's been doing since gen 5 while other OU staples have fallen out even with new tools. I for one think he's really good but he's a menace when paired with Gholdy but I don't want any of them to go, they've become good pals, leave their friendship alone!!!

 

[Magcargo]

Something I noticed while grinding and failing to get reqs on multiple accounts is that Fire / Ghost types are extremely strong rn due to their generally positive MUs vs many meta staples such as Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, Cinderace, and Zamazenta. Dirge and Ceruledge have been making a lot of waves recently (and for good reason) but even picks on the lower ladder like Chandelure and Typhlosion have been somewhat annoying to deal with. Chandelure is a bit like quaquaval, where it is packing that one random tech to screw you over. The most common variant of Chandelure I've seen on low ladder is Tera Grass Scarf with Trick, which has very few switch-ins outside of Roaring moon. Energy Ball blows past most mons that resist Chandy's STABs like Samur-H and Garg. All of its abilities are quite troll. Infiltrator lets it match up well vs screens, Flame Body makes attacking into it with Kingambit or Zama risky, and flash fire can give it a nasty MU vs Iron Moth with various Teras in its belt. Typhlosion-H, I have seen less of, but Tera Fire Eruption under sun is nasty. I think these Pokemon will get more common if Roaring Moon is banned.

 

[cosmogii]

It'd be so iconic if Gliscor gets banned for doing basically what he's been doing since gen 5 while other OU staples have fallen out even with new tools. I for one think he's really good but he's a menace when paired with Gholdy but I don't want any of them to go, they've become good pals, leave their friendship alone!!!

i dont play the meta as much anymore, but i vote to have gliscor and gholdengo separated to spite this user in particular

 

[CheesyBrie]

View attachment 564972

The biggest issue with Gholdengo isn't necessarely that it can be beat by Great Tusk, but the fact that it can entirely block hazard removal, multiple times per game if it has Air Balloon as well.

Gholdengo alone is the reason webs has become such an issue, you wouldn't find Ribombee being used this much without it.

The main problem is once Tusk gets in, it's unable to remove hazards if Gholdengo still exists, players will sack Gholdengo in a heartbeat if it means keeping hazards up, which then allows them to head into their sweeper that also beats Tusk, forcing you to switch out and get a safe opportunity to get it back in. This sequence is entirely too common.


While i can't necessarily hypothesize how good Mandibuzz and Scizor would become in a Gholdengo-less meta (Corv would def be great), they'd sure be a hell of a lot more useful then they are now.

Just want to necro-bump my own called shot from March (pre-DLC SV OU Metagame Discussion. I don't really know how to pin it, sorry. But it's post #8,323 and it's a pile of dumb words) where I said that something was wrong with the tier when and had 30%+ usage for three consecutive months. was a problem back then, and was the best reasonable solution. I was trying to make this point months ago, but I'm glad to see that the conversation and use of still is mentioned in the same breath as . Again, I'm not advocating for any action on Old Man Donphan. I just hate lol
But the usage of every pokemon and this tier, from teambuilding to gameplay, is contingent completely around finding a way to play around .
I'd love to see more and , or Defiant pokemon like Gapdos switch into the defog, or other spinblockers like or maybe even the new .

I'm not saying that any of these will rise to OU specifically because pushed them out or anything silly like that. I'm just saying that there will be more options and maybe some other interesting tier shifts.

So, I'm curious on two folds, one a stupid degenerate thread of "Okay, but what are the major checks and counters to ?" I almost think it should be pinned to the "Simple Questions, Simple Answers" forum. It's basically mandatory knowledge for playing this meta of OU.

And a far more interesting question: What heat and non-OU mons have people been using that have really excelled this past month?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It'd be so iconic if Gliscor gets banned for doing basically what he's been doing since gen 5

ah yes, how could we forget the infamous spikes gliscor sets of gen 5 fame

 

[woodgoldtwo]

Clef still does everything but tera has made it less viable in the sense where it was always a barely a wall in terms of statistical comparisons to other walls. If someone offensive teras, you can usually 2HKO Clefable in any sense which kinda just makes it not as valuable as past generations in my opinon, especially with Moonlight PP dropping to 8.

Great Tusk, Valiant, Roaring Moon vs Clefable

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tera Ground Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 214-252 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Moonlight and Morning Sun always had 8 PP