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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Gouging Fire is banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
So I watched a Pinkacross stream where he won 3 games in a row with an Electric Terrain team. It's still kinda like playing a 5 v 6 because Pincurchin isn't a real pokemon. That said, Iron Crown cooked on that team. I don't know if e-terrain can be good, but maybe there is a little bit of hope for it.
Either way, I definitely get the sense now that Iron Crown is gonna start skyrocketing in the viability rankings soon. I find myself a bit surprised to be finally thinking that with all the damn Dark types in the tier, but I am now convinced it is about more than just a particular set or two like AV and maybe a BE set on HO. The thing has a lot more versatility than I realized. It also just so happens to cover for all of Zama's weaknesses. Kinda a nice little core starting to form there.
And for the record, I did catch Pinkacross saying he would prefer a Roaring Moon ban. Make of that what you will. I'm just saying...
Either way, I definitely get the sense now that Iron Crown is gonna start skyrocketing in the viability rankings soon. I find myself a bit surprised to be finally thinking that with all the damn Dark types in the tier, but I am now convinced it is about more than just a particular set or two like AV and maybe a BE set on HO. The thing has a lot more versatility than I realized. It also just so happens to cover for all of Zama's weaknesses. Kinda a nice little core starting to form there.
And for the record, I did catch Pinkacross saying he would prefer a Roaring Moon ban. Make of that what you will. I'm just saying...
Not statistically significant amount of data to draw any conclusion from. All matches were also lower elo. Yes I created an account to be a hater.
I mean, technically yes, but it shows that top player can at least make it somewhat work.
Also, respect for creating an account just for that.
imo no, not really. it can hardly make any significant progress against bulkier teams and there are plenty of faster pokemon that can either cripple or revenge kill it before it gets out of hand. zamazenta is a very versatile and generally elite pokemon rn but i don't see how it's banworthy, especially when all of its sets generally tend to suffer from those issues. choice band is a bit better into fatter teams but i'm not sure if that set is still viable in this new metagame, and the other sets are absolutely held back by everything i mentioned above
This has been bugging me, but can you like back up any of your claims instead of effectively saying
"You're Wrong. I'm Right."
Usually when we're talking about if a Pokemon is worthy of a suspect, or if they're too much for the metagame the onus is on the Pro Ban side to prove themselves right. When it comes to Waterpon people just kinda cross their arms like it's obvious why it is a problem. I'm not even saying I'm better than anyone on this forum. I'm about as mediocre, and ineloquent as it gets. Me saying I'm open to be proven wrong. So, prove me wrong. How is Ogerpon-W overcentralizing? Why is it worthy of a suspect? Why should it be banned?
Don’t mind me, just dropping a funny calc.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom in Grassy Terrain: 156-185 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring in Grassy Terrain: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Standard offensive Rillaboom can’t switch into Waterpon and win the matchup if both mons are at full and rocks are up.
I’ve won a few games thanks to this.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom in Grassy Terrain: 156-185 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring in Grassy Terrain: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Standard offensive Rillaboom can’t switch into Waterpon and win the matchup if both mons are at full and rocks are up.
I’ve won a few games thanks to this.
One thing that makes games fun for me is, if I constantly improve as a player. Used to be a random 1700 shitter. I had a poor mentality whenever I lost, either lashing out or having a defeatist attitude like "why should I even bother with this game if I can't get any better". I had those thoughts even though I managed to beat high ranked players on the ladder some who are even tourney vets. But a couple of losses is all it took to let me go on a downwards spiral.
Btw I apologize to anyone I raged on. There are a lot of strong players on this ladder that I have learned from and I should be grateful to be facing them.
Slowly, I have reached the 1800s, and I was really happy. Haven't been in the 1800s since gen7 OU(my favorite btw). It became my new standard then.. Now I have finally reached the 1900s and I gotta say, it makes me really happy to see my improvements. I even did it with a team I build myself so that makes me extra happy since I feel like building a strong consistent team is really hard this gen.
Shout out to Pinkacross vid
. Watched it and reached the 1900s after. A lot of people will laugh, cause they can reach the 1900s as easily as turning their hands around but for me it is nice to know that I am a capable player atleast.
Also one tip for all of you, don't play when you are sleep deprieved. I remember I had my tilt session whenever I had poor quality sleep. My poor mentality isn't completely fixed since stuff like that will take time but I hope I can continue to make improvements.
Btw I apologize to anyone I raged on. There are a lot of strong players on this ladder that I have learned from and I should be grateful to be facing them.
Slowly, I have reached the 1800s, and I was really happy. Haven't been in the 1800s since gen7 OU(my favorite btw). It became my new standard then.. Now I have finally reached the 1900s and I gotta say, it makes me really happy to see my improvements. I even did it with a team I build myself so that makes me extra happy since I feel like building a strong consistent team is really hard this gen.
Shout out to Pinkacross vid
Also one tip for all of you, don't play when you are sleep deprieved. I remember I had my tilt session whenever I had poor quality sleep. My poor mentality isn't completely fixed since stuff like that will take time but I hope I can continue to make improvements.
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Getting to 1900s isn't easy. That's already high ladder and you should be proud. Well, I'm proud of my UU shitmons that got me to peak 1600s lol yeah you're right to be proud I don't think anyone would be such a bitch as to laugh at it
Thanks for the insightful post. The feeling of improvement, especially with self-made teams, is what always inevitably beings me back to this game.
1900s is a hell of an accomplishment and puts you among the top players on the ladder.
I’ve not yet hit 1900s and have huge respect for that. I am happy to say I’ve improved this gen. This is the first gen I’ve considered myself an 1800s player. And I feel inspired to try for higher once my work and life commitments ease up a bit.
Keep us updated on your journey mate.
Ironically, despite being a mod and taking some games against a couple top players on the ladder, I’ve never gotten to the 1900s. The closest I’ve gotten was 1896 on an alt.
I tend to throw important games and tilt, just a reminder that yes, it happens to even those in the mid-to-high ladder. Sometimes I have self-doubts as a player. I’ve been working to change that mentality for the better. I highly encourage others to do the same. If you’re a 1300s player and made it to the 1500s? Celebrate it. Progress is progress, and since I’m able to consistently get to the 1800s, I am currently on my next step as a player.
Congrats.
see thats the trap. i love to play this game and love enjoying it, but sometimes the right circumstances hit and you go "one more game cuz i'm mad" and suddenly you're down like 300ELO. Lost to a fucking Powertrip Corviknight and well buddy, you won't believe where I am now
it's 1300. I don't like it here because people just stay in on moves that will kill and it scares me
Tilt happens to even the absolute best and most accomplished players, that is true. One thing you can do is not to tie your self worth to your rankings. Pinkacross mentioned it in his vid too. We all improve at different rates. Whether you have a shiny badge or not shouldn't be an indicator or an obligation to get a certain rank. The fact that you can hang in the 1800s means you are in the higher part of the ladder and are knowledgeable. Just gotta get used to the ladder games being very swingy sometimes but that is the nature of the game. I will probably tilt in the future too but my goal is to do so at a smaller rate and work my way from there.
And you know what, taking a break is also important to refresh your mindset. Don't force yourself to play every day, otherwise your mentality will suffer when shit goes wrong, and you will be attracting negative energy. Who cares about decay, just do what is actually important in life and take care of yourself.
And thank you
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My best advice to anyone trying to climb the ladder is play 6 games a day. Six will make it so you don't decay, and something that a lot of people don't realize is stamina. Without several years of high/top level experience, you naturally will play worse after the first 5-8 games. More often than not grinding until you "get your desired rank" is just gonna make you lose elo, you'll play about 3x worse on your 15th game when compared to your 5th game. It's very easy for your mind to just lose itself in the game and you begin to start clicking shit without any real reasoning. If you want to play more games than 6, play on an alt for fun and keep your ladder grind to a more serious account where you are deeply focusing and only playing up until your limit. Final thing also but this is more obvious, PLEASE USE 1 TEAM IF YOU WANT TO CLIMB LADDER. I shouldn't have to explain why this is the case, this issue is more prevalent below 1800's tho.
EDIT: Doing this for reqs is also very good, I cannot tell you how many people have lost reqs or made it way harder for themselves by trying to do a whole 20 games straight past the 1400 elo mark. For example in volc reqs I loaded stall and played 5 games a day. I literally cruised to reqs playing I'd say almost perfectly every game, ending 32-1 (1 loss was hax crit that I after reviewing the replay had no way to deal with at any point of the match).
EDIT 2: just to clarify this doesn't apply as much to top players with several years of experience, like Finchinator for example can probably play 15+ games straight without a noticeable decline in playing quality, but the average 1800-2000 player is gonna play worse after their first 5-8. Just to give you an idea of how true this is: for anyone in 1800's+, have you ever found the same guy multiple times in 1 session and won every time vs them even though the MU isn't even that bad for the opponent? They are playing worse because they are just spamming games and are probably on game 25, yes that is why you can just farm them lol. Last thing but spamming games =/= improvement, but that's for another post entirely...
EDIT: Doing this for reqs is also very good, I cannot tell you how many people have lost reqs or made it way harder for themselves by trying to do a whole 20 games straight past the 1400 elo mark. For example in volc reqs I loaded stall and played 5 games a day. I literally cruised to reqs playing I'd say almost perfectly every game, ending 32-1 (1 loss was hax crit that I after reviewing the replay had no way to deal with at any point of the match).
EDIT 2: just to clarify this doesn't apply as much to top players with several years of experience, like Finchinator for example can probably play 15+ games straight without a noticeable decline in playing quality, but the average 1800-2000 player is gonna play worse after their first 5-8. Just to give you an idea of how true this is: for anyone in 1800's+, have you ever found the same guy multiple times in 1 session and won every time vs them even though the MU isn't even that bad for the opponent? They are playing worse because they are just spamming games and are probably on game 25, yes that is why you can just farm them lol. Last thing but spamming games =/= improvement, but that's for another post entirely...
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I got an update on my anti-lead builds. Hamurott, Glimmora, and Ribombee are like the axis of evil. For everything I can come up with that hits one or two of them, the third one always will have something that stops it. Toxic Debris procs passively, Ceaseless Edge bypasses Taunt, Shield Dust stops Fake Out, Dark type counters Prankster, and seems like nearly every multi-hit move will be resisted enough by one of them to prevent a 1HKO. Like Iron Crown would be the perfect anti-lead with BE, Taunt, and Tachyon Cutter if Hamurott didn't resist it.
A minor breakthrough happened when I realized I could use fast Taunt for everything except Hamurott. This means you don't have to worry as much about multi-hit moves on Ribombee and Glimmora. Just for sash Hamurott and maybe Kleavor. I mean, it's not as clean as just KOing them all. But at least you can deny hazards on more things, allowing you to cover for more bad matchups. Like a common problem for my old Normal Gem Hitmonlee set was the bad Lando-T matchup. I fixed this by adding Taunt, although it still gets walled and misses having Poison Jab for fairies. At least you deny hazards. The problem is Shield Dust on Ribombee still denies Fake Out, so you don't get to proc Unburden to move before it with a faster Taunt. But because of Shield Dust, Hitmonlee wasn't going to be able to anti-lead Ribombee anyways.
Also, I have found a substitute for my Sableye build...
This was dead before it even started because of Dark types like Hamurott being immune to Prankster. However, I was able to find one pokemon with the same combination of the first 3 moves and BE: Iron Valiant.
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Protect
- Disable
- Moonblast
So this theoretically works now. Is it good? I don't know. You are still reliant on the Hamurott player to click Ceaseless Edge into your Protect in order to deny it. But you are at least good against that typing, and theoretically, could still deny it to one spike at maximum just by attacking. It does feel bad to only have one attacking move on I-Val, though. It almost feels like a waste of such a good mon.
I don't know if it would ultimately be better to have a fighting move in the 4th slot to hit stuff like Gambit and maybe even lead Iron Treads. It might also be more optimal to have more special attack EVs or something for the AV Hamurott set.
None of this has reached anywhere near ideal levels, but it is something. One of the biggest issues I ran into was, when searching for BE mons with multi-hit moves, there really aren't as many as you might think. Like how does Iron Leaves not get Bullet Seed? Iron Boulder does get Rock Blast, but it doesn't 1HKO Hamurott with BE speed and no setup move. Iron Jugulus does gets Dual Wingbeat, but it hardly matter with 80 base attack.
Another idea I had was Fling flinching on D-Speed as a substitute for Fake Out. The problem there is both King's Rock and Razor Fang are banned. I thought maybe Razer Fang wasn't banned, but no dice.
However, there was a Meow related idea. Meowscarada could be made to work with Bullet Seed, but you cannot ensure outspeed Choice Scarf Hamuorott and Glimmora without Choice Scarf. Nor can you outspeed Ribombee without scarf. This makes fast Taunt kind of impractical, but I believe it would technically still work on a Choice Scarf set to deny all hazard leads. You would just have to switch out immediately after.
A minor breakthrough happened when I realized I could use fast Taunt for everything except Hamurott. This means you don't have to worry as much about multi-hit moves on Ribombee and Glimmora. Just for sash Hamurott and maybe Kleavor. I mean, it's not as clean as just KOing them all. But at least you can deny hazards on more things, allowing you to cover for more bad matchups. Like a common problem for my old Normal Gem Hitmonlee set was the bad Lando-T matchup. I fixed this by adding Taunt, although it still gets walled and misses having Poison Jab for fairies. At least you deny hazards. The problem is Shield Dust on Ribombee still denies Fake Out, so you don't get to proc Unburden to move before it with a faster Taunt. But because of Shield Dust, Hitmonlee wasn't going to be able to anti-lead Ribombee anyways.
Also, I have found a substitute for my Sableye build...
New Anti-hazard lead:
Sableye @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Taunt
- Disable
- Foul Play
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Taunt
- Disable
- Foul Play
This was dead before it even started because of Dark types like Hamurott being immune to Prankster. However, I was able to find one pokemon with the same combination of the first 3 moves and BE: Iron Valiant.
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Protect
- Disable
- Moonblast
So this theoretically works now. Is it good? I don't know. You are still reliant on the Hamurott player to click Ceaseless Edge into your Protect in order to deny it. But you are at least good against that typing, and theoretically, could still deny it to one spike at maximum just by attacking. It does feel bad to only have one attacking move on I-Val, though. It almost feels like a waste of such a good mon.
I don't know if it would ultimately be better to have a fighting move in the 4th slot to hit stuff like Gambit and maybe even lead Iron Treads. It might also be more optimal to have more special attack EVs or something for the AV Hamurott set.
None of this has reached anywhere near ideal levels, but it is something. One of the biggest issues I ran into was, when searching for BE mons with multi-hit moves, there really aren't as many as you might think. Like how does Iron Leaves not get Bullet Seed? Iron Boulder does get Rock Blast, but it doesn't 1HKO Hamurott with BE speed and no setup move. Iron Jugulus does gets Dual Wingbeat, but it hardly matter with 80 base attack.
Another idea I had was Fling flinching on D-Speed as a substitute for Fake Out. The problem there is both King's Rock and Razor Fang are banned. I thought maybe Razer Fang wasn't banned, but no dice.
However, there was a Meow related idea. Meowscarada could be made to work with Bullet Seed, but you cannot ensure outspeed Choice Scarf Hamuorott and Glimmora without Choice Scarf. Nor can you outspeed Ribombee without scarf. This makes fast Taunt kind of impractical, but I believe it would technically still work on a Choice Scarf set to deny all hazard leads. You would just have to switch out immediately after.
Here’s a set I cooked up for glim ribombee and sash Sam:
Deoxys-Speed @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Naughty Nature
- Taunt
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Stealth Rock
You have the fast taunt for glim and ribombee and superpower into rocky helmet will kill sam (I’m almost positive this denies ceaseless edge even tho you also get KO’d)
Technically you only need an attack boosting nature with 212 atk to kill 4hp sam after rocky helmet, but if they’re somewhat invested in hp for whatever reason you have a better chance of getting the kill going 252. Also if they’re not sashed (eg scarf, which you outspeed even with a neutral nature) you have a better shot at a OHKO.
I guess you trade even with sash sam and don’t outright beat it like you wanted, but with taunt + SR you still have good lead matchups in general outside of those three while not losing to them.
Rocky Helmet is a good idea that I definitely overlooked. This changes the need to deal with Focus Sash Hamurott with Fake Out or multi-hit moves and allows you to mostly just worry about Fast Taunt. Unfortunately, it isn't compatible with BE speed leads. So this unfortunately limits it to D-speed due to the constraints of worrying about outrunning scarf Hamm and Glimmers. I checked Pult and even Electrode, but sadly they aren't quite fast enough to do so.
It might be good to modify the D-Speed to something like Tera Fighting so that it doesn't lose to Hamurott or lead U-turn mons. You don't spin block, but you do then resist Gambit Sucker Punch.
And if you care more about denying hazards than getting up your own, you could swap rocks for something like Knock Off, Ice Beam, or maybe even Stomping Tantrum. Tera Dark Knock Off is also a decent option that tends to keep value if you can keep D-Speed past the suicide lead stage. It might be better to keep rocks, but it is at least something to consider.
i use a similar set with 3 atks (psyboost, icebeam/superpower, knock off) then spikes or rocks. i also think running max spatt is always the move for the improved rkilling it gives psyboost, not to mention that most targets of spower are weak to it. at least use enough to ohko max hp glimm at lead (72 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Glimmora: 372-438 (100.5 - 118.3%))
We're in the kitchen and it smells delicious today. I FUCKING love Okidogi!
EDIT:
I FUCKING hate Zamazenta.
a top player at low ladder can make literally anything work. in fact, just out of spite, i'm thinking of building a shitpost team and passing it to, like, mimikyu stardust or someone to see how far they can get on ladder with it, just to show how meaningless this electric terrain nonsense is. any volunteers?
I'm not volunteering. It's just that Iron Crown and Valiant are pretty good on E-Terrain. I don't know if that makes up for having to essentially play 5 on 6, but there is maybe potential there for a team that isn't complete trash.
It's true and somewhat makes me sad we don't got no Koko this gen (I also miss Fini and to some extent Bulu, who would be useful in curbing Wellspring). Crown is great both on and against Electric Terrain teams (or teams with Electric Terrain of some kind). It's honestly one of the most interesting and unique additions I think from the Indigo Disk and I'm glad it's been getting its recognition.
koko would probably be too much. It was a top choice before we had real serious abusers of e-terrain. Youd be forced to run terrain of your own just to nullify it. it felt like a similar position a few months ago when sun teams and gouging fire was at its peak, id run physdef boots pelipper just to counter it.
Also, i had a weird encounter earlier today... assault vest alomomola. Was at about 1680 elo which the guy was calling low ladder then tried to convince me his AV set with play rough, aqua jet, mirror coat and flip turn was the most viable and prevalent set on high ladder where he usually plays. Idk if that was a gaslighting attempt or what but it was probably mvp on his team against me, it got 3 kills (i still won). is that a real thing?? i have NEVER seen that before. it got the drop on me because of shock factor.
Meow has been fairly effective at one shooting the bee with Triple, but yea it needs the scarf, and it isn't guaranteed, because depressing reasons.
Ehhh I wouldn't say you ever had to do that for sun back then. There were ways around it. Specifically for Koko I wouldn't agree. Natdex player here and we have it, but it's not really broken. Very good standalone, and ETerrain teams are good options but they aren't really an issue because there's a solid amount of overlapping counterplay found for members on these teams.
Definitely don't know about "most viable" but I know a few people have used AV mola at high level before, at least high ladder and it is viable. Surprisingly good at catching some stuff by surprise expecting to slam it hard. Solid surprise punisher of special attackers.