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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I don't post much, but I felt this appreciation post was needed and coming.
First of all, I would like to thank the Devs, Mods, Admins, Support Staff + + for letting us enjoy Indigo Disk DLC 2 on Pokemon Showdown.
Secondly a Huge Thanks and Appreciation to The OU Council for maintaining the Indigo Disk Tier so well.
Personally I am enjoying OU more than I had ever before, even my friends say the same.
I think although early, but this is a time when OU has so many Pokemon after many Gens including some powerhouses and yet it still feels balanced.
Initially I thought that some Pokemon like Darkrai and Kyurem would be too much, but after playing for a few more days, I think they are perfectly fine.
I spoke with some friends like PokeaimMD regarding the same, even he said that Darkrai was not overly broken and stuff.
But my post is about about these Pokemon at all.
After quite a few Gens, playing OU with just only 5 Pokemon....It's either Pex vs Cleff, Pex vs Pex, Rillaboom + Unburden, Samurot + Gholdengo always, OU gets very boring.
But this Indigo Disk meta just feels different. The broken Pokemon just feels balanced and people are adjusting to broken stuff really well.
Finally we have an OU Tier with surplus Pokemon and Strats. OU really feels fun to play.
Huge shoutout to the OU Council, Finch and friends for creating this scenario.
I know its too early to judge but great job regardless.
Additionally an experiment to free more Ubers in the OU tier won't be bad either, but that is up to you guys to decide, as I am sure your decision will be correct. Just at the end an open OU Tier with a lot of Pokemon is always fun than a 5 Pokemon Pex Pex Cleff Cleff Rilla Rilla Tier.
Once again ,Thanks to everyone.
Have a Great Day & Thank You for Reading!
First of all, I would like to thank the Devs, Mods, Admins, Support Staff + + for letting us enjoy Indigo Disk DLC 2 on Pokemon Showdown.
Secondly a Huge Thanks and Appreciation to The OU Council for maintaining the Indigo Disk Tier so well.
Personally I am enjoying OU more than I had ever before, even my friends say the same.
I think although early, but this is a time when OU has so many Pokemon after many Gens including some powerhouses and yet it still feels balanced.
Initially I thought that some Pokemon like Darkrai and Kyurem would be too much, but after playing for a few more days, I think they are perfectly fine.
I spoke with some friends like PokeaimMD regarding the same, even he said that Darkrai was not overly broken and stuff.
But my post is about about these Pokemon at all.
After quite a few Gens, playing OU with just only 5 Pokemon....It's either Pex vs Cleff, Pex vs Pex, Rillaboom + Unburden, Samurot + Gholdengo always, OU gets very boring.
But this Indigo Disk meta just feels different. The broken Pokemon just feels balanced and people are adjusting to broken stuff really well.
Finally we have an OU Tier with surplus Pokemon and Strats. OU really feels fun to play.
Huge shoutout to the OU Council, Finch and friends for creating this scenario.
I know its too early to judge but great job regardless.
Additionally an experiment to free more Ubers in the OU tier won't be bad either, but that is up to you guys to decide, as I am sure your decision will be correct. Just at the end an open OU Tier with a lot of Pokemon is always fun than a 5 Pokemon Pex Pex Cleff Cleff Rilla Rilla Tier.
Once again ,Thanks to everyone.
Have a Great Day & Thank You for Reading!
Glalie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Switcheroo
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Spikes
Your mistake was assuming that I didn't already have an Inner Focus OU Glalie set
Yeah I'm really not in favor of the "flash ladder" idea either - if a threat could be so potentially polarizing that people can't agree on putting it on the base ladder, it's generally not going to be worth testing. As Carl_the_turtle stated, Darkrai was directly tested in OUPL and had a vast amount of community support for an OU retest (myself included in that support) and it was found both in OUPL/OU to be balanced and even a little underwhelming.
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I honestly don't know why you folks are still discussing whether we should unban some of the crappy Ubers. They created Uber UU for that specific purpose. In addition to that, we already unbanned Darkrai, meaning that we are already testing the idea of dropping Uber to OU. Right know I feel that the metagame is playable despite all of the new addition, and I think we should move forward in order to further developing the meta. Despite all of this, I think I'll my opinion of all of the mons we have been discussing at.
I honestly don't get the idea, on why people here think that this will be balanced in OU. You have a mon with great tusk's defenses but with very good special defense, to be more precise, basically latias's spedef on taking special hits. Good typing, with all of the psychic types running around. Oh but wait, you actually hit harder than tusk and latias if you take in consideration their best attacking stat. Finally, you have perfect coverage on both sides of the spectrum, set up moves and recovery. So basically you have a mon that whatever it wants and do it well, not to mention that has tera to make sure that those massive stats overwhelm you.
Sure it's passive, but in Uber. When you lower the power level these kinds of mons, can easily adapt their set, to basically to fullfil whatever it wants.For example, calm minds sets with tera sounds unkillable. Sure, just like solgaleo it doesn't get stored power, but you can make up for that with defense higher that cresselia's ones. Not to mention that it could get creative and use whirlpool to basically trap any sort of mon. Even passive sets with whirlwind sounds like a pain in the ass
Really, I mean faster than the majority of the tier, amazing signature move great ability. "But pult can revenge kill it behind a sub", TERA.
So, to conclude with my analysis, if you want play with Arceus bug or some crappy Uber. Uber UU is for you. I wouldn't mind welcoming the idea of trying some Uber mon in the future, but please, a 1-week old meta
, really. But we there it goes
I honestly don't get the idea, on why people here think that this will be balanced in OU. You have a mon with great tusk's defenses but with very good special defense, to be more precise, basically latias's spedef on taking special hits. Good typing, with all of the psychic types running around. Oh but wait, you actually hit harder than tusk and latias if you take in consideration their best attacking stat. Finally, you have perfect coverage on both sides of the spectrum, set up moves and recovery. So basically you have a mon that whatever it wants and do it well, not to mention that has tera to make sure that those massive stats overwhelm you. Sure it's passive, but in Uber. When you lower the power level these kinds of mons, can easily adapt their set, to basically to fullfil whatever it wants.For example, calm minds sets with tera sounds unkillable. Sure, just like solgaleo it doesn't get stored power, but you can make up for that with defense higher that cresselia's ones. Not to mention that it could get creative and use whirlpool to basically trap any sort of mon. Even passive sets with whirlwind sounds like a pain in the ass Really, I mean faster than the majority of the tier, amazing signature move great ability. "But pult can revenge kill it behind a sub", TERA.So, to conclude with my analysis, if you want play with Arceus bug or some crappy Uber. Uber UU is for you. I wouldn't mind welcoming the idea of trying some Uber mon in the future, but please, a 1-week old meta
, really. But we there it goes
have you considered running explosion or memento to generate momentum while either inflicting a big chunk of damage or giving a setup opportunity to whatever you bring in? glalie's kind of a free 10% boost for childish gambito even when optimized, so why not lean into that and make it a literal suicide lead? not sure what i'd run it over, though
Glalie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Switcheroo
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Spikes
Your mistake was assuming I didn't already have an OU Glalie set.
you can pry my hypnosis sets from my cold dead hands, i refuse to run anything else, no matter what the radical anti-sleep woke mainstream media says is "optimal"
Question for the chat.
What are your thoughts on the idea of
dropping into the tier? A 100 BP Ghost Type move coming off of a 157 Special Attack stat is absolutely nuts, but is sorely lacking in both the defensive and even offensive department. 97/109/127 bulk is let down by a terrible defensive Typing, plaguing it with common weaknesses to Ghost and Dark, two immunities in Fighting and Normal and being smacked neutrally by just about everything else (Psychic and Poison are hardly relevant attacking options). 77 Speed is downright bad, especially so with as many weaknesses as this guy. Its movepool is colorful, but it lacks any means to hammer past Dark Type Pokemon. Especially considering that they're often faster than it (
being the one exception, but there's no shot in Hell it's getting past that).
I think Tera is what would push over the edge, since it would be free to shed its horrendous Defensive Typing for something like Fairy or Fighting, allowing it to finally muscle past Dark Types and fully make use of Prism Armor, which would otherwise be downright useless. (120% over 160% is still an OHKO).
I'm not advocating for a drop-- not yet anyways, till Tera's dealt with-- but I wanna see what y'all are thinking about this guy. I've never seen it talked about, which is especially strange considering it makes the likes of
look like B+ material in Ubers.
What are your thoughts on the idea of
dropping into the tier? A 100 BP Ghost Type move coming off of a 157 Special Attack stat is absolutely nuts, but is sorely lacking in both the defensive and even offensive department. 97/109/127 bulk is let down by a terrible defensive Typing, plaguing it with common weaknesses to Ghost and Dark, two immunities in Fighting and Normal and being smacked neutrally by just about everything else (Psychic and Poison are hardly relevant attacking options). 77 Speed is downright bad, especially so with as many weaknesses as this guy. Its movepool is colorful, but it lacks any means to hammer past Dark Type Pokemon. Especially considering that they're often faster than it ( being the one exception, but there's no shot in Hell it's getting past that).I think Tera is what would push
over the edge, since it would be free to shed its horrendous Defensive Typing for something like Fairy or Fighting, allowing it to finally muscle past Dark Types and fully make use of Prism Armor, which would otherwise be downright useless. (120% over 160% is still an OHKO).I'm not advocating for a drop-- not yet anyways, till Tera's dealt with-- but I wanna see what y'all are thinking about this guy. I've never seen it talked about, which is especially strange considering it makes the likes of
look like B+ material in Ubers.
Has anyone been able to fit waterpon into teams rn? Beastspam and dragonspam in general has made it pretty rough to use, unless you slot play rough over something like knock which feels bad. You could run both but missing sd sucks. I wouldn't be surprised if it dropped because of this + new toy syndrome. I don't think its garbage but I'm having trouble finding a niche for it
Question for the chat.
What are your thoughts on the idea of
I think Tera is what would push
I'm not advocating for a drop-- not yet anyways, till Tera's dealt with-- but I wanna see what y'all are thinking about this guy. I've never seen it talked about, which is especially strange considering it makes the likes of
Arceus doesn't love me enough to let me die.
Please never let this nightmare drop to OU, I'm extremely against the idea more so than Lugia or any of the other suggested Ubermons. I'm pretty open-minded but I'm gonna go ahead and draw the line at OU Necrozma-Dawn-Wings. Way too much for the tier on any given day. I appreciate the willingness to experiment with a conversation about Ubermons potentially being OU material, but there are some Pokemon that are inherently too much. Necrozma-Dawn-Wings is too strong, too bulky, has a great ability, and has a great movepool with insane attacking and utility options.
The problem is that so many new threats check Waterpon at every turn - one of my favorite new mons (Archaludon) is as close to a Waterpon counter as one can get. Water/Grass is just not particularly a good offensive STAB combination in this Dragon-heavy meta. Rockerpon on the other hand is quite good right now, Grass/Rock STAB is pretty gnarly and Sturdy is a phenomenal ability.
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Its funny how the better form swapped because of meta changes. rockpon seems to be a great sun and rain check with power whip + ivy cudgel hitting a bunch of abusers and all setters super effective. Archaludon still gives it trouble but I might try out a rockpon with a rain team for a gouging fire check while suns up
Sun is another reason that Waterpon is doing so terribly right now - mons like the mentioned Gouging Fire feast alive on it, and its Water Absorb ability is aggressively situational right now (given that Water is more used defensively at the moment rather than offensively). Not to mention the continued domination of Dragon types is the bane of Waterpon's existing, and Raging Bolt is another common mon that reams Waterpon
Primarina is supremely underrated this gen. Psychic Noise, Alluring Voice, Flipturn. She ruins stall's day.
This shit is honestly getting out of hand.Question for the chat.
What are your thoughts on the idea of
I think Tera is what would push
I'm not advocating for a drop-- not yet anyways, till Tera's dealt with-- but I wanna see what y'all are thinking about this guy. I've never seen it talked about, which is especially strange considering it makes the likes of
Unbanning a whole handful of box art tier legendaries just because Darkrai was unbanned. Darkrai was unbanned because because it was fine in OU, not because it was bad in Ubers.
Besides the fact that Necrozma-DW has Prism Armor with access to Tera, having only a handful of Pokemon be able to threaten it without Tera only makes the metagame worse. No one wants to play games where you're required to have Ting-Lu/Umbreon or Kingambit at all times.
It hasn't even been that long, a few days even and somehow the meta has completely changed. At first we all thought there was like 3 completely broken things and everyones 3 were different and suddenly it feels... oddly balanced? Like it feels like some stuff is busted, but at the same time they are still beatable. Deoxys Speed isn't keeping up with the meta getting bulkier and bulkier. Gliscor is finding more things to beat it with DLC being a thing. Volcarona gets whooped by the new Robo Terrakion. Robo Terrakion can actually be stopped by defensive walls like Alomomola, and risks getting burned by a super effective scald, and in general doesnt have a good defensive typing. Serperior also isn't keeping up well in the bulkier meta, and can get phased or just killed with its low defenses.
The only ones I still see as OP is Enamorus for being the most braindead unstoppable strat ever, and Kyurem being Baxcalibur 2. Overall I like this meta, and think this could be one of my favorites in a long time at this rate.
edit to prevent double posting, but it reminded me of BW in a way. Latios and Tyranitar feeling super busted and yet, felt beatable and fun to play. Different strategies still viable despite the looming threats because those strategies had ways of overcoming them.
The only ones I still see as OP is Enamorus for being the most braindead unstoppable strat ever, and Kyurem being Baxcalibur 2. Overall I like this meta, and think this could be one of my favorites in a long time at this rate.
edit to prevent double posting, but it reminded me of BW in a way. Latios and Tyranitar feeling super busted and yet, felt beatable and fun to play. Different strategies still viable despite the looming threats because those strategies had ways of overcoming them.
Primarina
I honestly think we should all start considering Primarina an actual part of OU, and not just a niche option. It's incredibly common right now and it's really good. It needs further exploration because it's dismantling multiple archetypes right now when combined with some of OU's most potent threats. Kingambit + Primarina is also a brutal combination.
Also, Archaludon is one of the coolest OU Pokemon I stg I love him so much
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While it's true that necrozma dawn win can't get past through ting lu, it's still have tool outside tera to annoy the with the checks it can't deal with, like knock off, while the typing is bad on the defensive side, it is not horrendous and thanks to it's ability, it can take hits from mons like gholdengo if needed. In the case of zamazenta hero, with can look forward it in the near futureQuestion for the chat.
What are your thoughts on the idea of
I think Tera is what would push
I'm not advocating for a drop-- not yet anyways, till Tera's dealt with-- but I wanna see what y'all are thinking about this guy. I've never seen it talked about, which is especially strange considering it makes the likes of
UUbers and its consequences have been disasterous for OU discussion.Question for the chat.
What are your thoughts on the idea of
I think Tera is what would push
I'm not advocating for a drop-- not yet anyways, till Tera's dealt with-- but I wanna see what y'all are thinking about this guy. I've never seen it talked about, which is especially strange considering it makes the likes of
Not every Pokemon has to be viable somewhere. The reason these Pokemon are Uber in the first place is because they are TOO GOOD in the "top" format. The WHOLE POINT of Ubers was to be an OU banlist for years. It took an entire Mega Rayquaza to establish Ubers as a tier in its own right. But there's been a renewed sense of "if it's bad in Ubers, it might be good in OU!" Which is both never, ever the point of tiering, and just another way of saying "we can't ban this Pokemon from OU, it'll be bad in Ubers!" The goal should never be "every Pokemon is usable somewhere", because then you end up with tiers for the BL mons; pointless, and not fun to play.
And I get it right, it sucks that Genesect hasn't been "usable" for close to a decade now. But we've tested Genesect in OU quite a few times, and it hasn't worked. That should be the sign to leave it be. But every generation, we get people saying it's worth a shot! What harm could it do! And here we are again in a metagame with Deoxys Speed unbanned where it very clearly does not belong in the tier- because more players insisted "it wouldn't be that bad this time".
Darkrai has absolutely not helped this discussion. I almost wish it was far too good, like people feared it would be. But because it's mid, more and more people are coming out with this kind of mentality. "Unban Solgaleo, it'll be fine!" "We really should test Giratina and Lugia, it'll help in the hazard wars!" Go lobby for RUbers and stop wasting this tier's time.
The endless cycle of Ubers discourse has really progressed to the point where we're out here imagining moves onto mons that don't learn them.
That survey cannot come soon enough jesus h tapdancing christ.
Of all Tidy Up mons which has the biggest surviveability? Hazards are annoying.
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You know I have a simple thought about Tera. Doesn't Stellar proof that the defensive Tera was the "broken" aspect after all? I remember in the past people claiming the 2x power would be busted.
Honestly and hypothetically if Stellar was the only allowed Tera Type... what would happen to OU?
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You know I have a simple thought about Tera. Doesn't Stellar proof that the defensive Tera was the "broken" aspect after all? I remember in the past people claiming the 2x power would be busted.
Honestly and hypothetically if Stellar was the only allowed Tera Type... what would happen to OU?
None.
I was actually thinking about using smeargle as Tidy Up user solely for the purpose of removing hazards, but with the bonus of boosting your speed.
I think that would be a perfectly fine trade off for hard countering two of the most oppressive mons for defensive playstyles to handle (Garganacl + Skymin)
I'm currently 1841 with Hypnosis Darkrai as the star of my team.
I could go higher, but the nature of Darkrai (high variance) means it takes a lot of games to catch up when I inevitably lose 5 in a row because Darkrai does nothing. But 60% of the time he just flat out wins the game.
I actually don't like Darkrai in the meta... but the logic you guys are using to justify Darkrai while opposing Skymin is insane to me. They're basically the same. High variance mons that beat many teams singlehandedly when things go right, but also have a few hard counters that stop them.
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formerly DynamaxBestMeta
In a horribly unrelated way, I sorta want playable BLs, that are just whatever tier and its bl. it shouldnt and ideally wouldn't mean a rats ass about tiering, but it would be nice to have these underappreciated mons be top dog for once.
Now, for something a bit more OU, how's Skeledirge doing? It's unique combo of a damaging move that boosts its own stats and unaware should be nice, right? Helps out against the physical walls and physical boosters, i hope.
i don't even think we can make the definitive judgement that it's mid yet, just that it wasn't immediately and catastrophically flutter-mane-level broken. hell, there's a non-zero chance that it'll still turn out to be broken and it has a secret best set or ideal group of teammates that haven't surfaced yet. and this is the reason why i'm wary about dropping any ubers, much less box legendaries; i'm honestly still looking sideways at zamazenta even
I want to point out that saying Ting Lu/Blissey/Dondozo walls something isn't, well, honestly, valid when it comes to dropping Ubers. My man Quagsire historically has been used in Ubers to check Arceus here and there and man the day God himself starts throwing hands in OU this format is truly done lmao
I just wanna really emphasize this post here: There is a gap between "Bad in Ubers" and "Good in OU". Sliding off the former does not immediately put you within distance of the latter. The difference in power level between OU and Ubers is much bigger than UU and OU, for example. Any environment where Dialga and Ho-oh and Deoxys-Attack are allowed to run off-leash is going to have a power floor that's a lot higher than OU's power ceiling of like, Kingambit and Latios. Being bad in Ubers has literally no bearing on if something is good in OU because up there base 90 Attack is unusably bad and down here it's enough to work with just a few boosts, hence why NP Deoxys-Speed is top tier viable right now. Do you want Palkia-Origin in this tier? No? Why not, when it's legal in UUbers? Because even if it's not good enough for Ubers, it's way too good for OU.
Fact of the matter is, Ubers it not a "real" tier. It exists, and you can play it, but its purpose is not to be a balanced metagame. It is OU's banlist. If it is a playable metagame, so much the better, but that's not why it exists. There's a reason Ubers' qualifications for banning something are so stupidly high that they've only banned like, three things ever. There is absolutely zero point in looking at usage or viability in Ubers as a way of seeing what would be good for OU because they're operating on fundamentally different scales here.
I'm not against hearing out posts about why Giratina or Lugia or Solgaleo would be balanced in OU. But I want those posts to be about how they would actually have decently splashable checks and wouldn't run roughshod over the entire metagame, not about now it's unviable in Ubers, because only one of those points means anything.
I feel like the only Uber currently that has some merit to dropping is Annihilape.
It was banned very early on, and with the new additions to the tier I could see it return. We now have a lot more Pokemon that returned to work with, new moves, new mechanics, and new Pokemon.
After a while I think it should be retested for OU, but not now as every one is playing with the new toys.