Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [OLT HYPE]

I'll give a hint. It's been very cold in the Northern Hemisphere lately. During cold times, there are 2 options we have:

1) Crank up the heat with your favorite Fire-type Pokemon like Chi-Yu
2) Get rid of the cold so you stop feeling frozen
Clearly will be both dropping Chi-Yu and banning snow

It's a shame to see Ninetales-Alola go, but snow is clearly overpowered and needs to be gotten rid of. /s

as long as its not TOO cold…
As long as its not under-20c, its fine really.
 
I don't feel too strongly either way about sleep going, I feel bad for amoongus but as I understand he can still spore in UU? Is that correct or is his poor ass going to NU? Before dlc2 I argued a lot that darkrai would be too much for OU and while it wasn't broken immediately, I'll take this as minor confirmation. We had to kneecap it to keep it competitive. Sleep is his whole thing it'll never be broken now.
 
I don't feel too strongly either way about sleep going, I feel bad for amoongus but as I understand he can still spore in UU?
No, Spore is banned in all of OU's standard usage-based tiers, so there's no more Spore Amoonguss unless you want to use it in the Uber tier or something, but I wouldn't use Amoonguss there.
 
back in the chi-yu days i legitimately saw people defending this calc because "but it has to be a crit!!!!!" when the problem is the fact that the calc is possible at all. no special move should be able to ohko a fully invested blissey, ever, under any circumstances that don't involve some sort of stat stage change. no way in hell is that mon coming back
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Samurott Hydro Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain on a critical hit: 699-823 (97.8 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Unovan Samurott suspect incoming. Thank Arceus.

Also, before it gets suspected and likely booted from OU: what is everyone's favourite Kyurem set? DD with Tera Ground Tera Blast, Scale Shot, Icicle Spear with loaded dice is fun because it can end games on the spot.
 
Ah I stand corrected then, usually this isn't how it's done but then again this isn't really a simple matter of a mon or move being banned.
the current gen always applies bans from the highest tier (not counting ubers) down to every lower tier, which makes sense because it doesn't make much sense for mons to have radically different viabilities in different tiers when tiers are defined by current usage.

once the gen becomes an old gen, and tiers no longer become defined by usage, this rule drops and lower tiers can have their own bans
 
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Samurott Hydro Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain on a critical hit: 699-823 (97.8 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Unovan Samurott suspect incoming. Thank Arceus.

Also, before it gets suspected and likely booted from OU: what is everyone's favourite Kyurem set? DD with Tera Ground Tera Blast, Scale Shot, Icicle Spear with loaded dice is fun because it can end games on the spot.
Kyurem @ Throat Spray
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Noble Roar
- Freeze-Dry
- Dragon Pulse
- Earth Power
I used to run hyper voice on this gimmick set and it's kinda alright. I didn't use kyurem at all because I believed it would get banned at some point, which is now most likely correct. I've been testing out some noble roar sets on different mons and it is interesting, lowering both offensive stats is quite good.
 
Is it possible to get a Yawn suspect in the future? It doesn’t induce sleep (the status it induces is separate) so I think it is fair game to consider as it has competitive use and doesn’t seem broken. I didn’t like the sleep ban but if it’s what people wanted then that’s fine - we should play the game that we for the most part agree on playing. But in reading a lot of the prior and current discussion on this I think Yawn may have more support to not be banned than to be lumped in with the rest.

Dire Claw should also probably just be banned outright without sleep clause, if anything that’s super rng fishy now without sleep clause and definitely not competitive.
So the problem stems from the fact that Sleep Mod is gone, and Yawn can multisleep now.

So...I send in a Torkoal and Yawn whatever's in front of me. Either the opponent switches out, or now they're sleeping and I have a free turn. So far, so good, no big problem, they switch out and Torkoal gets a turn to click something, but he's slow and the switch in should be able to deal with a Torkoal.

But what if I have hazards up and click Yawn again on the switch? Now the options are:

1) Run a Superman team and ignore the hazards.
2) Run HDB on at least two mons that don't fear Torkoal's attacks, and switch back and forth between them.
3) Have a Sleep Talk mon who can absorb the Yawn and beat Torkoal.

That's really stressing team building, but it's not quite broken; after all, plenty of things can take a hit from Torkoal, and HDB are good anyway.

Yawn's well distributed, though, so there's no way you can counter Yawn + hazards with just two mons; what can switch into Torkoal might not be able to handle Kingdra, Skeledirge, and Ursaluna (just for three mons suited for entirely different team builds). What if it's a Curse Donzodo running Yawn and you only have one HDB special attacker? Every other turn you're either taking hazards chip or sending in something that Dondozo can set up against.

Yawn + Knock Off + Hazards would be a brand new, obnoxious play style, and there's enough Yawn users (and the other two elements are good enough) that you can splash it onto a team as a backup plan.
 
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So the problem stems from the fact that Sleep Mod is gone, and Yawn can multisleep now.



So...I send in a Torkoal and Yawn whatever's in front of me. Either the opponent switches out, or now they're sleeping and I have a free turn. So far, so good, no big problem, they switch out and Torkoal gets a turn to click something, but he's slow and the switch in should be able to deal with a Torkoal.



But what if I have hazards up and click Yawn again on the switch? Now the options are:



1) Run a Superman team and ignore the hazards.

2) Run HDB on at least two mons that don't fear Torkoal's attacks, and switch back and forth between them.

3) Have a Sleep Talk mon who can absorb the Yawn and beat Torkoal.



That's really stressing team building, but it's not quite broken; after all, plenty of things can take a hit from Torkoal, and HDB are good anyway.



Yawn's well distributed, though, so there's no way you can counter Yawn + hazards with just two mons; what can switch into Torkoal might not be able to handle Kingdra, Skeledirge, and Ursaluna (just for three mons suited for entirely different team builds). What if it's a Curse Donzodo running Yawn and you only have one HDB special attacker? Every other turn you're either taking hazards chip or sending in something that Dondozo can set up against.



Yawn + Knock Off + Hazards would be a brand new, obnoxious play style, and there's enough Yawn users (and the other two elements are good enough) that you can splash it onto a team as a backup plan.
Alternatively you can run lum/ chesto and boost twice into torkoal while it expects you to sleep then obliterate the opposing team. Maybe you have to run yawn mons with unaware mons, which is pretty passive itself and becomes more of a stall/ phsaing team which has limitations itself. I think "yawn teams" will be manageable
 
Alternatively you can run lum/ chesto and boost twice into torkoal while it expects you to sleep then obliterate the opposing team. Maybe you have to run yawn mons with unaware mons, which is pretty passive itself and becomes more of a stall/ phsaing team which has limitations itself. I think "yawn teams" will be manageable
Or maybe lum/chesto berry sets will only be common when yawn is common, and when yawn sets fall to the wayside, so will the lum/chesto sets, which will then produce a wave of yawn sets again, causing a bad cycle. I think "yawn teams" will be harmful to meta development.
 
I think Yawn would likely be too strong, but I would personally not oppose a suspect test. Unlike other sleep where if you land it, the mon is just unusable for a random number of turns, yawn could be seen as a roar/whirlwind that has the option to sleep instead. I once again say I feel it'd ultimately still be too strong, I just feel its at least worth considering a suspect test
 
Before sharing my thoughts, I would apologise if I talked to aggressively here.



Like I stated earlier, I do think sleep is problematic. What I felt like being the problem here however, is the fact that this is big enough of a change, alike dynamax in gen 8. We all knows dynamax is unanimously banned, however it still scheduled to a suspect test due to the significance it has to the tier. Obviously Gen 8 Dynamax is way more broken than Gen 9 Sleep (I think that most of you could agree with that statement) and it is not directly comparable, but what I want to state is that Gen 9 Sleep is in a similar position as dynamax, where it is overpowered but the significance of it should warrant a suspect test no matter the rating it gets in the survey.



An issue I always had is that more 'casual' players opinions to be ignored. Another game that I have played in the past make balance changes not just regarded to top players, but also 'mid ladder' players. I understand that competitive is the major view when regarding to smogon tiering, but it really doesn't mean ignoring more casual players. In the last year, smogon removed Natdex AG and I hate it because it is ignoring casual player's request to just have fun and messing in the game. I really don't want OU to follow it's footsteps at becoming a tier that is disposed by casual players. I hope that comments and complaints are actually read, not just arguing against the idea because the community manager doesn't like it. Again, no offense, but I just want our views to be addressed, not by ignoring it.



Personally, I felt like pushing sleep into a quickban itself is a problem, knowing that it will be extremely controversial. I suggest pushing the quickban minimum in OU to 3.8 or 4 out of 5, because most of the community do felt like quickban happens too much in non-edge cases where a suspect would be more proper. Obviously we can quickban things like flutter mane and iron bundle, but sleep? Sure I do want it banned, but is it really a good decision to not let the community decide? Sorry if I outraged too hard lol.
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
I hope Kyurem’s suspect song isn’t either Baby it’s cold outside or ice ice baby. Cold as Ice by Foreigner would be much better as a song choice imo. Please finch you robbed me of Bad Moon Rising twice as the suspect song when we had two moon Pokémon tests in a row.

Real quick, suspect songs for every single survey mon.

:kyurem: Cold as Ice - Foreigner

:gouging fire: Fire -The Crazy World of Arthur Brown (goated 60s rock song if you haven’t heard it, hit top 2 only held off by the Beatles when it came out) if not that, Beds are Burning by Midnight Oil

:roaring moon: Bad Moon Rising - Credence Clearwater Revival

:kingambit: Royals - Lorde

:Gholdengo: Money - Pink Floyd

:Deoxys speed: Gas Gas Gas - Manuel

:archaludon: Riders of the Storm - The Doors

:raging bolt: Thunder Road - Bruce Springsteen
(Yeah it wasn’t on the survey but it got a lot of write ins)
 
Hell yeah i fucking love ubers discussion in fact let's discuss unbanning ho-oh considering it has all the weakness Lugia has + a 50% sr weakness, terrible offensive typing that get's checked by the entire metagame and middling bulk it would add tons of defensive value to the tier.
Tbh it's not that bad of idea. Ho oh can't run pressure cm as well as Lugia. It adds stability to the tier. We had stronger mons. It cant be more broken than palafin flutter mane last respects shed tail teal mask bax.
 
Praying that the council takes matters into their own hands and suspects archaludon despite its low survey score in a surprise upset. Sometimes the plebes need a strong hand to guide them to the right destination, and this is becoming more and more clear me after deoxys speed scored higher than arch (even in the qualified vote like wtf is going on is rain that elo inflated that all the goons spamming it to top 250 cant imagine needing skill again??!?!??)
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
There have been a lot of questions about the sleep ban including why action was needed, why we specifically decided to ban sleep moves, and why a council vote was selected over a public suspect. I answered all of these questions in an expanded justification of our ban here. I am posting a copy of this below for reference as this was discussed to death here and I am hoping this marks the end of discussion as we pivot into the new metagame!

Post below:

It is important to provide sufficient justification for our tiering actions. It is also important to be as communicative about our process as possible. Our playerbase takes their time to play our metagame and many take their time to discuss it, so I owe my time as leader to them during situations like this. Moreover, this post will be aimed towards providing clarity and explanation in one singular placed rather than it being scattered throughout countless unique forum posts between this subforum, policy review, and even other spaces like Discord, Twitter, etc.

I feel like the initial ban post included mentions of everything, but a lot of this was done by reference rather than through direct statement. For example, I dropped the below quote, but I did not touch on every unique point within the post, instead hoping that hyperlinking these separate posts would suffice.

This is ultimately insufficient for tiering action that changes a longstanding institution of our metagames such as the Sleep Clause mod. I should have explained the points made in all 8 of these posts and the various others that council members made, but I had a deadline to meet with OST and SPL going up that night, IRL people were over, and I had my own tournament games later that night, so instead I just hyperlinked them. I apologize for not budgeting my time sufficiently enough to expand on them. I do not apologize for the ban itself as it is based off of proper application of our tiering system, which I will get more into later, but any ban should be accompanied by a thorough explanation after all.

We are going to cover some major points:
  • Why was action needed on this topic after Sleep Clause was in effect for many years prior?
  • Why sleep moves were chosen over the alternatives such as banning Pokemon or banning individual moves?
  • Why was this done via council vote as opposed to defaulting to a suspect test?
Why was action needed on this topic after Sleep Clause was in effect for many years prior?

Sleep has been manageable under Sleep Clause in every generation besides BW, which had unique mechanics. In SV, it was contained until DLC2 when Darkrai was unbanned after receiving substantial public support and subsequent unanimous council support. People began using Darkrai with a Focus Sash and Hypnosis to generate free turns and force progress earlier in games. This set had such a wide array of outcomes ranging from useless upon missing to netting substantial progress (often in the form of multiple kills) if it connected.

However, people began to use other sleep based strategies frequently after this was showcased. For example, Iron Valiant began using a set with Hyponosis, Calm Mind, Moonblast, and Hex with Tera Ghost, which allowed it to surpass every individual counter with enough fortune. Council member Aislinn posted a detailed report of her findings with this set here. Opposing Pokemon like Volcarona, Toxapex, Slowking-Galar, Moltres, and other would-be checks suddenly had to dodge Hypnosis or wake up promptly to remain checks. Beyond this, we also saw an uptick in things like Sleep Powder on Sun abusers such as Lilligant-Hisui.

With multiple abusers proving to be problematic, we knew there was potential for action. It is our job to stay on-top of the metagame and handle pressing issues aggressively, but also with attention to detail and process -- it is important we are timely, but also considerate. The most appropriate way to handle the situation was to discuss it with our playerbase, which we did through an active Policy Review thread and a timely OU subforum discussion.

Both of these threads showed far more support for action than not; to go a step further, the supermajority of the Policy Review thread and the majority of the OU thread requested action on sleep moves themselves as opposed to anything else (more on this in my next point though). In order to get formal data on the matter, the council announced its intention to hold a community survey here despite being close to a consensus internally; we let people know this multiple days in advance to make sure they knew, too.

Finally, it was included in the survey and received 3.7 out of 5, which shows a noteworthy majority of people supporting action on this specifically. Typically this is on the borderline between a suspect and a quickban vote, so we opted to have a council vote that included both options rather than one or the other -- more on this later as well.

Why sleep moves were chosen over the alternatives such as banning Pokemon or banning individual moves?

A lot of people understand why action had to be taken after playing our metagame, but preferred we ban Pokemon like Darkrai and Iron Valiant or moves like Hypnosis. I can absolutely understand these points, especially when it comes to the former. However, the most ideologically consistent position to take was banning sleep moves. In addition, the selection that fit best with our current tiering policy (which anyone can access here).

As for banning Pokemon like Darkrai and Iron Valiant, this was the second most desirable outcome to me and I resonate with people taking this stance. The main thing it boils down to is that it would take banning multiple Pokemon on top of a clause that is a major outlier just to preserve a handful of sleep moves that would have an even smaller handful of users. Given that we never tier with collateral in mind, preserving these moves vs. preserving the other users is never a debate we will engage in -- any debate between the two camps is entirely arbitrary. This makes the primary differentiator the fact that the current Sleep Clause mod is ineffective and needs to be reformed in some capacity.

The cleanest and most sound way to do that is to simply shift it to a sleep moves clause, which bans every sleep move and removes the "mod" component to it -- a simple ban is easy to implement in-game, but the Sleep Clause mod is not something that can be repeated within the games at all. Pokemon Showdown shows a prompt with every single time someone attempts to sleep a second Pokemon, but this is not in place in SV. While you can agree to not click a second sleep move, there are various situations where it may be forced to come up such as Encore, predicting wake-up turns, PP stalling situations, misclicks, and so on. You cannot just have these avenues left entirely unaccounted for, so when one side of the spectrum includes a full solution to the problem in the metagame (meaning no future sleep abusers can stir-up trouble either and the current ones are mitigated) and a full solution to the issue people take with current policy (with it not being repeatable in-game), it is the default among the two.

As for the option of banning a move like Hypnosis, which is a common thread between Darkrai and Iron Valiant, we did not regard it as an option akin to the above two. For starters, Hypnosis being banned does not solve the problem -- Darkrai can run the same exact set with 10% less consistency (or more variance) with Dark Void, for example. If you want to then say to ban Dark Void, then we are taking multiple more weeks and potentially another discussion, survey, and ban just to reach the same conundrum we did above where we cannot pick between different forms of collateral and it leads us to the same discussion as the last paragraph: the only way to differentiate is to go with the cleaner and more consistent side ideologically, which is to reform the clause rather than add onto it on an as-needed basis while remaining incompatible with the game SV itself.

Given all of this, a tough, but accurate and justified, decision was made to focus on sleep moves. Please note that if no action was elected, we would have maintained the longstanding status quo of the Sleep Clause mod, but that was not the case as you can see. We also made it clear both in the survey and posts such as this one that any action taken would be specifically on sleep moves, not anything else.

Why was this done via council vote as opposed to defaulting to a suspect test?

I wrote a detailed post specifically on this topic here, so feel free to read this first. You do not have to though as I will lay it all out again in this post.

Suspect tests are intended to give the playerbase a chance to determine if something is broken or balanced in the current metagame. Frequently we see Pokemon being discussed within this context, but deeper policy issues like this do not fall under the same umbrella -- sleep moves were banned due to being uncompetitive, which is different from broken and the difference has been referred to in aforementioned posts and is laid out explicitly here. There is a major difference between tiering broken and tiering uncompetitive things; there has been a track record for this over many years, too.

BW OU had a "suspect" on sleep, but the only people who could vote were longstanding players with results over time, for example. This vote resembles a larger council vote much more closely than it resembles an SV OU suspect. However, a more recent BW OU suspect had a ladder component for those who did not qualify through other means, which specifically was left out of the sleep move vote. In addition, other things like evasion moves have not had a modern suspect, oftentimes being banned at the start of the generation or on an as-needed basis from the tiering council.

For someone to ladder 30-50+ games in SV OU and achieve a high enough ELO to get requirements, this proves they are competent in the current metagame, giving them capability to rule on if a Pokemon is broken or balanced in their opinion. However, this does not include any components that pertain to policy. There is no mandate to know tiering policy, historical precedent, what is actually legal within the games, and a whole slew of other things that can pertain to deeper policy decisions. Given this, trying to suspect something like sleep moves or evasion, which fit under the umbrella of uncompetitive, would be akin to trying to fit a square object within a round hole: the qualifications for a suspect do not cover this area, in my opinion. I also stated my desire to handle things internally prior to the survey went up or the council voted here and nobody objected to it at the time whatsoever.

So when sleep moves received a 3.7 out of 5 on the survey, this score can typically mean two things (for a Pokemon): a vote for a potential quickban or a suspect test. The council had an unconventional vote that included three options given the circumstances: ban, suspect test, or no action -- this gave both a quickban and a suspect test a chance depending on the support of people whose job it is to enforce the tiering policy -- the SV OU tiering council. We ultimately determined to quickban sleep moves, but the vote itself was the most appropriate way to handle a complicated situation on a topic that does not match the contents of a normal tiering discussion.

I hope people read through this and it addresses the questions they have on this topic. It is my job to provide clarity on matters that are important to our players, so I am always happy to expand when possible.
 
There have been a lot of questions about the sleep ban including why action was needed, why we specifically decided to ban sleep moves, and why a council vote was selected over a public suspect. I answered all of these questions in an expanded justification of our ban here. I am posting a copy of this below for reference as this was discussed to death here and I am hoping this marks the end of discussion as we pivot into the new metagame!

Post below:

It is important to provide sufficient justification for our tiering actions. It is also important to be as communicative about our process as possible. Our playerbase takes their time to play our metagame and many take their time to discuss it, so I owe my time as leader to them during situations like this. Moreover, this post will be aimed towards providing clarity and explanation in one singular placed rather than it being scattered throughout countless unique forum posts between this subforum, policy review, and even other spaces like Discord, Twitter, etc.

I feel like the initial ban post included mentions of everything, but a lot of this was done by reference rather than through direct statement. For example, I dropped the below quote, but I did not touch on every unique point within the post, instead hoping that hyperlinking these separate posts would suffice.

This is ultimately insufficient for tiering action that changes a longstanding institution of our metagames such as the Sleep Clause mod. I should have explained the points made in all 8 of these posts and the various others that council members made, but I had a deadline to meet with OST and SPL going up that night, IRL people were over, and I had my own tournament games later that night, so instead I just hyperlinked them. I apologize for not budgeting my time sufficiently enough to expand on them. I do not apologize for the ban itself as it is based off of proper application of our tiering system, which I will get more into later, but any ban should be accompanied by a thorough explanation after all.

We are going to cover some major points:
  • Why was action needed on this topic after Sleep Clause was in effect for many years prior?
  • Why sleep moves were chosen over the alternatives such as banning Pokemon or banning individual moves?
  • Why was this done via council vote as opposed to defaulting to a suspect test?
Why was action needed on this topic after Sleep Clause was in effect for many years prior?

Sleep has been manageable under Sleep Clause in every generation besides BW, which had unique mechanics. In SV, it was contained until DLC2 when Darkrai was unbanned after receiving substantial public support and subsequent unanimous council support. People began using Darkrai with a Focus Sash and Hypnosis to generate free turns and force progress earlier in games. This set had such a wide array of outcomes ranging from useless upon missing to netting substantial progress (often in the form of multiple kills) if it connected.

However, people began to use other sleep based strategies frequently after this was showcased. For example, Iron Valiant began using a set with Hyponosis, Calm Mind, Moonblast, and Hex with Tera Ghost, which allowed it to surpass every individual counter with enough fortune. Council member Aislinn posted a detailed report of her findings with this set here. Opposing Pokemon like Volcarona, Toxapex, Slowking-Galar, Moltres, and other would-be checks suddenly had to dodge Hypnosis or wake up promptly to remain checks. Beyond this, we also saw an uptick in things like Sleep Powder on Sun abusers such as Lilligant-Hisui.

With multiple abusers proving to be problematic, we knew there was potential for action. It is our job to stay on-top of the metagame and handle pressing issues aggressively, but also with attention to detail and process -- it is important we are timely, but also considerate. The most appropriate way to handle the situation was to discuss it with our playerbase, which we did through an active Policy Review thread and a timely OU subforum discussion.

Both of these threads showed far more support for action than not; to go a step further, the supermajority of the Policy Review thread and the majority of the OU thread requested action on sleep moves themselves as opposed to anything else (more on this in my next point though). In order to get formal data on the matter, the council announced its intention to hold a community survey here despite being close to a consensus internally; we let people know this multiple days in advance to make sure they knew, too.

Finally, it was included in the survey and received 3.7 out of 5, which shows a noteworthy majority of people supporting action on this specifically. Typically this is on the borderline between a suspect and a quickban vote, so we opted to have a council vote that included both options rather than one or the other -- more on this later as well.

Why sleep moves were chosen over the alternatives such as banning Pokemon or banning individual moves?

A lot of people understand why action had to be taken after playing our metagame, but preferred we ban Pokemon like Darkrai and Iron Valiant or moves like Hypnosis. I can absolutely understand these points, especially when it comes to the former. However, the most ideologically consistent position to take was banning sleep moves. In addition, the selection that fit best with our current tiering policy (which anyone can access here).

As for banning Pokemon like Darkrai and Iron Valiant, this was the second most desirable outcome to me and I resonate with people taking this stance. The main thing it boils down to is that it would take banning multiple Pokemon on top of a clause that is a major outlier just to preserve a handful of sleep moves that would have an even smaller handful of users. Given that we never tier with collateral in mind, preserving these moves vs. preserving the other users is never a debate we will engage in -- any debate between the two camps is entirely arbitrary. This makes the primary differentiator the fact that the current Sleep Clause mod is ineffective and needs to be reformed in some capacity.

The cleanest and most sound way to do that is to simply shift it to a sleep moves clause, which bans every sleep move and removes the "mod" component to it -- a simple ban is easy to implement in-game, but the Sleep Clause mod is not something that can be repeated within the games at all. Pokemon Showdown shows a prompt with every single time someone attempts to sleep a second Pokemon, but this is not in place in SV. While you can agree to not click a second sleep move, there are various situations where it may be forced to come up such as Encore, predicting wake-up turns, PP stalling situations, misclicks, and so on. You cannot just have these avenues left entirely unaccounted for, so when one side of the spectrum includes a full solution to the problem in the metagame (meaning no future sleep abusers can stir-up trouble either and the current ones are mitigated) and a full solution to the issue people take with current policy (with it not being repeatable in-game), it is the default among the two.

As for the option of banning a move like Hypnosis, which is a common thread between Darkrai and Iron Valiant, we did not regard it as an option akin to the above two. For starters, Hypnosis being banned does not solve the problem -- Darkrai can run the same exact set with 10% less consistency (or more variance) with Dark Void, for example. If you want to then say to ban Dark Void, then we are taking multiple more weeks and potentially another discussion, survey, and ban just to reach the same conundrum we did above where we cannot pick between different forms of collateral and it leads us to the same discussion as the last paragraph: the only way to differentiate is to go with the cleaner and more consistent side ideologically, which is to reform the clause rather than add onto it on an as-needed basis while remaining incompatible with the game SV itself.

Given all of this, a tough, but accurate and justified, decision was made to focus on sleep moves. Please note that if no action was elected, we would have maintained the longstanding status quo of the Sleep Clause mod, but that was not the case as you can see. We also made it clear both in the survey and posts such as this one that any action taken would be specifically on sleep moves, not anything else.

Why was this done via council vote as opposed to defaulting to a suspect test?

I wrote a detailed post specifically on this topic here, so feel free to read this first. You do not have to though as I will lay it all out again in this post.

Suspect tests are intended to give the playerbase a chance to determine if something is broken or balanced in the current metagame. Frequently we see Pokemon being discussed within this context, but deeper policy issues like this do not fall under the same umbrella -- sleep moves were banned due to being uncompetitive, which is different from broken and the difference has been referred to in aforementioned posts and is laid out explicitly here. There is a major difference between tiering broken and tiering uncompetitive things; there has been a track record for this over many years, too.

BW OU had a "suspect" on sleep, but the only people who could vote were longstanding players with results over time, for example. This vote resembles a larger council vote much more closely than it resembles an SV OU suspect. However, a more recent BW OU suspect had a ladder component for those who did not qualify through other means, which specifically was left out of the sleep move vote. In addition, other things like evasion moves have not had a modern suspect, oftentimes being banned at the start of the generation or on an as-needed basis from the tiering council.

For someone to ladder 30-50+ games in SV OU and achieve a high enough ELO to get requirements, this proves they are competent in the current metagame, giving them capability to rule on if a Pokemon is broken or balanced in their opinion. However, this does not include any components that pertain to policy. There is no mandate to know tiering policy, historical precedent, what is actually legal within the games, and a whole slew of other things that can pertain to deeper policy decisions. Given this, trying to suspect something like sleep moves or evasion, which fit under the umbrella of uncompetitive, would be akin to trying to fit a square object within a round hole: the qualifications for a suspect do not cover this area, in my opinion. I also stated my desire to handle things internally prior to the survey went up or the council voted here and nobody objected to it at the time whatsoever.

So when sleep moves received a 3.7 out of 5 on the survey, this score can typically mean two things (for a Pokemon): a vote for a potential quickban or a suspect test. The council had an unconventional vote that included three options given the circumstances: ban, suspect test, or no action -- this gave both a quickban and a suspect test a chance depending on the support of people whose job it is to enforce the tiering policy -- the SV OU tiering council. We ultimately determined to quickban sleep moves, but the vote itself was the most appropriate way to handle a complicated situation on a topic that does not match the contents of a normal tiering discussion.

I hope people read through this and it addresses the questions they have on this topic. It is my job to provide clarity on matters that are important to our players, so I am always happy to expand when possible.
I understand the problem here. But I still had the issue of why bother choosing quickban at all. This is a major change to the metagame like banning dynamax /tera does.

In depth version of my opinion is postest here:
Before sharing my thoughts, I would apologise if I talked to aggressively here.



Like I stated earlier, I do think sleep is problematic. What I felt like being the problem here however, is the fact that this is big enough of a change, alike dynamax in gen 8. We all knows dynamax is unanimously banned, however it still scheduled to a suspect test due to the significance it has to the tier. Obviously Gen 8 Dynamax is way more broken than Gen 9 Sleep (I think that most of you could agree with that statement) and it is not directly comparable, but what I want to state is that Gen 9 Sleep is in a similar position as dynamax, where it is overpowered but the significance of it should warrant a suspect test no matter the rating it gets in the survey.



An issue I always had is that more 'casual' players opinions to be ignored. Another game that I have played in the past make balance changes not just regarded to top players, but also 'mid ladder' players. I understand that competitive is the major view when regarding to smogon tiering, but it really doesn't mean ignoring more casual players. In the last year, smogon removed Natdex AG and I hate it because it is ignoring casual player's request to just have fun and messing in the game. I really don't want OU to follow it's footsteps at becoming a tier that is disposed by casual players. I hope that comments and complaints are actually read, not just arguing against the idea because the community manager doesn't like it. Again, no offense, but I just want our views to be addressed, not by ignoring it.



Personally, I felt like pushing sleep into a quickban itself is a problem, knowing that it will be extremely controversial. I suggest pushing the quickban minimum in OU to 3.8 or 4 out of 5, because most of the community do felt like quickban happens too much in non-edge cases where a suspect would be more proper. Obviously we can quickban things like flutter mane and iron bundle, but sleep? Sure I do want it banned, but is it really a good decision to not let the community decide? Sorry if I outraged too hard lol.
Also, if there is any room of increasing the requirement of survey support of voting a quickban?
 

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