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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Gliscor suspect]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Playing devil's advocate here, but back in ORAS and Gen 7 Mega-Rayquaza was banned. But not normal Rayquaza even though the option to mega evolve is always present in an ingame battle in the actual game.
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Well would you look at that
It is interesting how decisions were made based on the desire of the community (strictly sticking to the survey results), but I wonder if that same standard will be held here. If a large amount of the community want Terapagos' forms tiered separately, will that desire be ignored because of the traditional tiering process?
ah, that's where the disconnect is. you assumed any of us here have a sound mind
I agree wholeheartedly - Darkrai's got some issues, he's a great offensive mon but comes up short in a lot of situations and is very setup reliant (and even with setup still falls short in a lot of areas). 4MSS sucks, and his 70/90/90 bulk feels like wet paper right now.
Why give Iron Boulder Booster Energy if you’re gonna name it Archaludon? Kind of obvious if you use Booster Energy on a Pokemon without booster energy ability.
Gonna give my opinion on darkrai after a few games. I think with lifeorb 4 attacks this guy is really strong in the current ho fest meta. It functions as an amazing revenge killer much like boots/lo 4 zama, and a lot of offensive mons can’t take life orb darkrai attacks. It’s usually always good for 1 plus massive chip on something else, which is all that a lot of ho builds need it to do. Once balance comes back though and people start using stuff like tingothy again I think boots nasty plot will become a lot stronger, but atm it doesn’t get really any opportunities to set up on account of all the offensive threats and it’s frailty
>Grr! Too many quickbans!!!! Look at how many have become the quickest quickban in history!!!!
*two minutes later*
>This turtle should have been banned second one, basically a dereliction of duty by the Council!
This meta has existed for less than 24 hours. let them do their work.
*two minutes later*
>This turtle should have been banned second one, basically a dereliction of duty by the Council!
This meta has existed for less than 24 hours. let them do their work.
Wait for the meta to settle before doing any action. Quick banning it would seems hypocritical without letting some time to cook.
Complex ban for Terapagos would be ridiculous, and I'm surprised to see people are even bothering to argue for it.
To keep this pokemon OU legal, we would need to ban its ability to tera. It would be the only mon that is banned from using tera. Terapagos is the legendary mascot of terastallization. It has exclusive abilities and moves built around the tera mechanic. Making the tera pokemon the only pokemon in OU that can't use terastallization would be ironic and silly.
Is it really worthwhile to introduce complex tera bans in order to keep one bulky spinner legal?
Additionally, if this complex ban happens it sets a precedent and opens up a whole new can of worms. The immediate example, which has been brought in this thread, is Ogerpon-Heathstone. If you banned tera on Ogerpon-Hearthstone it would be OU legal. The stat boost from tera is the element that pushes it over the edge into Ubers. If we remove the tera option from Terapagos, why not remove the option from Ogerpon-H and let it be legal? There are other mons that could be OU legal without tera, like Regieleki or Annihilape (or Volc), so why not ban their ability to tera and free them from ubers? Obviously these scenarios aren't all excatly the same, but they follow the same line of logic, and I just don't see why a complex ban here is beneficial to the tier.
This isn't like Urshifu, Deoxys, or Rotom where the forms are locked in and can be tiered seperately. Terapagos is a transforming pokemon, with changing forms, and removing that ability would be altering its core mechanic. Terapagos is Terapagos, plain and simple.
Hopefully this thing gets quickbanned soon and we can stop debating complex bans. OU just got a ton of new threats, some of which will likely require action, which are more worthy of debate than Terapagos.
To keep this pokemon OU legal, we would need to ban its ability to tera. It would be the only mon that is banned from using tera. Terapagos is the legendary mascot of terastallization. It has exclusive abilities and moves built around the tera mechanic. Making the tera pokemon the only pokemon in OU that can't use terastallization would be ironic and silly.
Is it really worthwhile to introduce complex tera bans in order to keep one bulky spinner legal?
Additionally, if this complex ban happens it sets a precedent and opens up a whole new can of worms. The immediate example, which has been brought in this thread, is Ogerpon-Heathstone. If you banned tera on Ogerpon-Hearthstone it would be OU legal. The stat boost from tera is the element that pushes it over the edge into Ubers. If we remove the tera option from Terapagos, why not remove the option from Ogerpon-H and let it be legal? There are other mons that could be OU legal without tera, like Regieleki or Annihilape (or Volc), so why not ban their ability to tera and free them from ubers? Obviously these scenarios aren't all excatly the same, but they follow the same line of logic, and I just don't see why a complex ban here is beneficial to the tier.
This isn't like Urshifu, Deoxys, or Rotom where the forms are locked in and can be tiered seperately. Terapagos is a transforming pokemon, with changing forms, and removing that ability would be altering its core mechanic. Terapagos is Terapagos, plain and simple.
Hopefully this thing gets quickbanned soon and we can stop debating complex bans. OU just got a ton of new threats, some of which will likely require action, which are more worthy of debate than Terapagos.
Genuinely curious, how is this more complex than banning a Mega Evolution? As was pointed out earlier on this page, the item Gengarite is not banned on Pokemon Showdown, only Gengar transforming into Mega-Gengar. Therefore, to argue there is no precedent is false.
The difference is that in Gengar's case, it's a teambuilder restriction. This isn't applicable to Terapagos since there are no equivalent restrictions that can be put on it in the teambuilder.
oh that is delectably evil, i love it
funnily enough, i can see merit in both sides of the argument:
on the one hand, yes, it would be prudent to wait until everyone is finished the "slapping 4-6 new mons on a team and going to town" phase of the meta to do any tiering action, since counterplay could crop up in the form of mons nobody is using right now due to new-toy syndrome. it's also important to note that we're not nearly as limited by time as previous metas—pre-home was around six months, post-home was only two and a half, dlc1 was almost exactly three months, but this meta will be around for nearly two years. and it's christmastime, so maybe we should relax and let people live their lives instead of demanding they immediately balance the meta according to the whims of a community that constantly screams at them to do better even though they've been doing better than they ever have before by leaps and bounds.
on the other hand, fucking look at the thing
Would the same not have been true at the time with regards to how Megas were handled? It is likely I just don't know how exactly Showdown functions, but that seems like a teambuilder restriction which would have not existed before whichever Mega was the first to necessitate it.
This is my current SV OU team:
(6th slot currently is Raging Bolt. Will experiment with other options)
I have been playing some SV OU, and by some, I mean 11 games. I kinda reset my win loss record and decided to ladder for a lil bit, see what the meta is like. I went 9-2 in the process only losing to a rain team, and a serperior sweep. By the looks of it, it seems as though my call was correct. But here's what I think about this meta:
#1:
The Stellar Snakes. The Stellar Tera Contrary duo of Enamorus and Serperior can snowball games way too quickly. These 2 FORCE YOU into using something that outspeeds them, because Tera Stellar Blast is neutral against... well, everything actually. I will adapt and adjust to this, but something tells me that this isn't going to end well for either of them. The speed and power is just... too much to handle effectively.
#2:
The Lego Kids. Ok jokes aside, we all know the pain of stepping on a Lego piece barefoot (it REALLY hurts if you didn't step on one). And the fact that these guys get Stealth Rock, but more importantly Spikes, means that maneuvering around hazards feel just like that pain. I'm glad I got Taunt to stop it... a little bit anyway. But Deoxys opens up the possibility for Skill Swap to beat Magic Bounce, tera dark to beat Prankster Taunt (which is what I'm using) or Mental Herb. This is mid 1300s ladder however, so there's always the possibility of higher level gameplay being a lot more challenging (not to say it isn't already a challenge even down here). For THE SAKE OF THE TIER and not my personal opinion, we probably need to get rid of Deoxys Speed ASAP. Deoxys Defense and Gliscor are fine, but Deoxys Speed is too tedious to face.
#3:
The Sweepers. Hazards make the threat of these guys extremely scary to face. You have GOT to be able to maneuver around these dudes or else you will lose the game. No one really likes the hazard game, and no one likes any of these extremely threatening sweepers either. Deoxys Speed's departure is one step towards handling this hazard metagame.
Though my team looks bad, it's not actually that bad. Screens with my super bulky team is most likely enough to dish our pretty powerful counter damage to the standardized stuff going around, but this is going to change very fast and very soon. I probably might swap Great Tusk for a Rapid Spin Terapagos (maybe with Rest) and Raging Bolt for something to handle my teams currently bad matchups. No team paste yet -- I wanna make sure I have the skills to match what my team can do before sharing it. But you could pretty easily deduce what I'm using with the given Pokemon. Hopefully I can give my personal future insight on the likes of Terapagos and the sweeper pokes and a better take on Deoxys Speed's effect on the metagame. I'm sticking to my word. I will actually try to play OU competitively this time.
(6th slot currently is Raging Bolt. Will experiment with other options)I have been playing some SV OU, and by some, I mean 11 games. I kinda reset my win loss record and decided to ladder for a lil bit, see what the meta is like. I went 9-2 in the process only losing to a rain team, and a serperior sweep. By the looks of it, it seems as though my call was correct. But here's what I think about this meta:
#1:
The Stellar Snakes. The Stellar Tera Contrary duo of Enamorus and Serperior can snowball games way too quickly. These 2 FORCE YOU into using something that outspeeds them, because Tera Stellar Blast is neutral against... well, everything actually. I will adapt and adjust to this, but something tells me that this isn't going to end well for either of them. The speed and power is just... too much to handle effectively.#2:
The Lego Kids. Ok jokes aside, we all know the pain of stepping on a Lego piece barefoot (it REALLY hurts if you didn't step on one). And the fact that these guys get Stealth Rock, but more importantly Spikes, means that maneuvering around hazards feel just like that pain. I'm glad I got Taunt to stop it... a little bit anyway. But Deoxys opens up the possibility for Skill Swap to beat Magic Bounce, tera dark to beat Prankster Taunt (which is what I'm using) or Mental Herb. This is mid 1300s ladder however, so there's always the possibility of higher level gameplay being a lot more challenging (not to say it isn't already a challenge even down here). For THE SAKE OF THE TIER and not my personal opinion, we probably need to get rid of Deoxys Speed ASAP. Deoxys Defense and Gliscor are fine, but Deoxys Speed is too tedious to face.#3:
The Sweepers. Hazards make the threat of these guys extremely scary to face. You have GOT to be able to maneuver around these dudes or else you will lose the game. No one really likes the hazard game, and no one likes any of these extremely threatening sweepers either. Deoxys Speed's departure is one step towards handling this hazard metagame.Though my team looks bad, it's not actually that bad. Screens with my super bulky team is most likely enough to dish our pretty powerful counter damage to the standardized stuff going around, but this is going to change very fast and very soon. I probably might swap Great Tusk for a Rapid Spin Terapagos (maybe with Rest) and Raging Bolt for something to handle my teams currently bad matchups. No team paste yet -- I wanna make sure I have the skills to match what my team can do before sharing it. But you could pretty easily deduce what I'm using with the given Pokemon. Hopefully I can give my personal future insight on the likes of Terapagos and the sweeper pokes and a better take on Deoxys Speed's effect on the metagame. I'm sticking to my word. I will actually try to play OU competitively this time.
Gonna give a big WHO CARES to all the "banning a Mon from Teraing is different this time because the stats change," the council already said what's going to happen, they probably can't even really do anything about it given they're subservient to site admins, and we've had this Mon for less than a day, it's really not like essential that we keep it around. Let's please discuss other new Pokémon instead of hemming and hawing about a relatively unimportant decision that's already been made
Should have made Terapagos Ubers first lol. I wonder how they didn't think 160/110/110 bulk with a 120bp omni tera would be legal in ou
This is poor argument to me. Yes, in a previous gen, they implemented Gengar's ability to mega by banning the mega and not the item. However, in effect this didn't make any difference. No other pokemon can use Gengarite, so it doesn't change anything. If you put Gengarite on a Pikachu, you are just wasting the item slot.
Tera, in this case, is not the same. If you ban tera on Terapagos, it is the only pokemon in the game that can't use the mechanic. It would be the single exception out of hundreds of pokemon.
If you ban Gengar's ability to use Gengarite and mega, you still have Gengar, a pokemon that exists in the game. If you ban Terapagos' ability to tera, you now have a new pokemon, the tera-less Terapagos, that does not exist in the game. Typically, the council does not want to create a pokemon that you can't actually have in the video games.
I think a more apt comparison would be if the solution to Mega-Gengar was to ban Gengar from using its item slot at all.
see, that comparison doesn't really work either, because gengar can hold other items. the only thing terapagos can do with its tera is change into the form, there's no other option. so it's like banning gengar from using its item slot if it was hard-coded to only be able to hold gengarite
Appreciate the explanation, though I'll agree to disagree while shelving the matter, since, as said, without such weirdly massive support for a bulky spinner that it recreates Volcarona drama, nothing will happen. For me, I'm more interested in the nitty gritty like this and the interpretation of policy when the status quo is challenged. That said, from reading it, it seems like twisting things a few degrees to fit not being called a Clause when it functionally acts as one. This case is basically as admitted, functionally the same as the above, only with the necessity to be called a Clause. By sheer technicality, Sleep Clause is not a cart mechanic, and we (rightfully) did what was needed to be done.
Then one thinks on the matter for about as much time as it takes to write this post, that it probably isn't worth making a Clause that will be received, at best, divisively, to save Teralesspagos, which really doesn't add that terribly much on its own to remedy any of the problems in the tier. I kneel.
I don't get the mega evolution comparison at all. Not all pokemon can megaevolve, while all pokemon can tera, it has not the same implications. If anything it's more like banning a Z move, which has not only never happened i think, but a pokemon being too good of a Z user being a reason for its ban happened a lot in NatDex
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2012742720-qazkwkeial36hq2toxze7ndmdz7azawpw
Worthless 1400elo game but it showcases 2 interesting concepts :
View attachment 580566
Vs, blocked rapid spin --> temper flare is an OHKO. Might render balloon dengo worthless.
(I encourage all dengo haters to try it out at least once, it's better than therapy)
View attachment 580568
Alluring Voice is absolute bonkers on him. He shuts down fighting types, and Tera fairy completely turns the table around VS dragons types and especially dark types. Even Darkrai has to respect him.
Managed to get top 20 with the same team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2012984041-r7voqouixkyndrrsj9reetr7u6y0h44pw
+ + 
(Singer squad) is the ultimate anti-cheese combo, case in point in that game.
Personally, I think an even more apt comparison to banning T-Stellar would be how in lower tiers of generations past, some pokemon would be de facto banned due to all of their abilities being banned. Im almost certain it happened with sand veil and/or snow cloak mons, but i wish I could find a proper example so im not talking out of my ass. Nothing says on paper that the mon is banned, but it isnt usable because all of its abilities are banned. The same would be said if only T-stellar was banned, because while it wouldnt ever say that it cannot tera, it would in practice be unable to, just as in practice the banned ability mon wouldnt be able to be used.
This is grasping at straws but ive felt this for a good bit