Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Eeveeto]

Well, personally I'd say it's moreso "manageable" over "healthy". No tera meaning it can't tera fairy past gambit/ting-lu is useful, yeah, but what else does the ostrich do? It genuinely just contraints teambuilding, forcing unaware/phasing + darks to make sure it doesn't get too far into it's stored power shenanigans, which really isn't something we need as of well, any metagame state. It's not healthy imo, cause a cheap wincon remains a cheap wincon, no matter if it requires a click of a button or a click of multiple buttons (few spike layer chip rounds and even +1 dgleam's damage starts getting ting dangerously close to dying, gambit even moreso. Now, may I ask, else from being a stored power wincon, what does it even do?

It doesn,t do anything else, but it doesn,t look that dangerous as a Stored Power sweeper either. You are mentioning hazards, but take into account Espathra is ALSO affected by them. The opponent knows there is an Espathra and it has enough sure, 100% counters regardless of the set:
1. Alolan Muk.
2. Skeledirge with enough Sdef and Shadow Ball.
3. Roar + Roost Empoleon. Espathra won,t be able to get past it. At +0, Espathra doesn,t threaten anything, so regardless of the Mon that it will appear vs later in the match, it won,t be that hard to beat.
4. Excadrill.
5. Scizor.
6. Kingambit.
7. Metagross.
8. Jirachi.
9. Throat Chop Ting-Lu (better if it also has WW).
10. Scream Tail. It won,t be beating Espathra, but it will use Encore so that something else kills it.
11. Tyranitar.
12. Heart Swap Manaphy.
13. Haze Milotic.
14. SD Necrozma. This is notable and viable in OU since Photon Geiser ignores Dondozo. Vs Espathra it will obviously use Knock Off.
15. Iron Boulder. Resists Psychic too and attacks from the physical side.
16. Ceruledge.


I purposely left many Mons that are currently considered non viable in OU, all of these are to some degreee. I could have mentioned Incineroar, Araquanid, Snorlax, etc.

Hopefully the discussion dies here, won,t be answering more posts about Espathra. We are still in Tera OU regardless.

 

[j0nathan]

So what seems to be the go-to bulky cores for balance teams in the current state of the meta? Is it mostly just Skarmory and Ting-Lu or has other options been explored yet?

The few i faced always had a bulky water type like alomomola or dondozo

 

[Dragonair Bot]

I'm not high on the ladder at all (1400-1600) but my hot take is tentacruel is actually an interesting rapid spinner now that it got flip turn to maintain momentum. It has amazing special bulk and I've been switching back and forth between boots and assult vest and it feels really fun. Used to be one of my favorites in black in gen5 ubers rain stall and it might be back. Probably not, but more fun than I've had in a while with it.

 

[Funkytown]

Just wanted to post my thoughts here as well since I've now got the chance to play 15 games or so:

I've ran both rain and sand teams, and both of them feel nice. Rain I think is the better archetype since you have a better setter in Pelipper, as well as some good abusers like Barraskewda. It felt a little limited while the turtle was still around, but now that it's gone, rain is very very good. Sand on the other hand is just fun. Excadrill is surprisingly good? Getting an SD up, then clicking either iron head or EQ is easy, and it doesn't take too much to get it into position.

Archaludon is probably my favourite new addition to the game, it's just so consistent. I have tried both the set Morkal posted earlier, as well as one I cooked up for the Rain team, which really benefits from Alomomola wish passing to it since it suffers from no recovery aside from leftovers.

I haven't seen too much Deo-S to comment on it, but I have seen a ton of Stellar-Tera Serperior, which turns into a guessing game of which coverage it has. I feel lucky whenever I come out of that interaction with only one or two mons gone, but Skeledirge really really helps in that match up.

 

[CobsonYaoi]

I'm not high on the ladder at all (1400-1600) but my hot take is tentacruel is actually an interesting rapid spinner now that it got flip turn to maintain momentum. It has amazing special bulk and I've been switching back and forth between boots and assult vest and it feels really fun. Used to be one of my favorites in black in gen5 ubers rain stall and it might be back. Probably not, but more fun than I've had in a while with it.

Would you mind posting your Tentacruel in a Pokepaste?

 

[Lightniong]

Last night was a ride, with just constant people just arguing and arguing about terapagos, and then the whole “OU Monarchy” shit went down, but I don’t really want this community to go. Sure, we’ve had some bickering, but I think we can come back from this and be a community again. Sure, last night may have driven us apart, but we are a community, and if we don’t care for each other, then the community will fall.

 

[YubelVT]

I know that 99% of the time the wider playerbase's opinions shouldn't matter in terms of game balance, but good lord game freak why did you take away defog. Like even in ubers (which isn't entirely relevant but I'm annoyed) there's a defog issue because ZERO new things got it, which means grimmsnarl screens HO can just run 6 taunt mons and do whatever they want. That's not as much of an issue down here but it's still a fucking problem because there's still very little hazard removal, even if some of the spinners DLC 2 gave us were very good.

What exactly does Deoxys-S do that's so awful? Be a good lead? I mean sure it's a big hit to Glimmora's viability but at the end of the day I really don't care which Pokémon is vomiting up hazards or screens turn 1 then dying, they all do the same thing, this one just does it better than most. I don't think the metagame is old enough to declare that this makes HO overbearing because almost everyone (me included) is running HO right now. Making a couple Pokémon (glimmora and Ninetales being the most apparent imo) less reliable picks is not a banworthy thing, and neither is being spammed on ladder week one. I've heard alarms raised about nasty plot or other offensive sets, but this seems to be all theorymon from my observation, and I've not heard of anyone having notable success running this over a real offensive Pokémon, like the many booster sweepers or breakers in the tier, or some of the excellent new setup sweepers that arrived or were unbanned, and the calcs are not particularly impressive, especially given that the tier is absurdly fast right now with booster speed Boulder being a pretty notable benchmark and straight up priority being a lot more important to respond to it, along with scarf becoming more common. I really do not think this Pokémon should be quickbanned and honestly do not understand peoples drive to, please do a suspect if anything is done (and I don't see a reason for anything to be done)

I know that ubers viability isn't a 1:1 representation of a pokemon's banworthiness (otherwise skeledirge would have been ubers for most of the gen), but saying Deo-S is a good lead is the understatement of the millennium. It has been tried and banned in Gen 4, where it's the best lead in the ubers metagame; Gen 5, where it is an incredible lead; and Gen 6, where it kinda fell off due to Ubers becoming more bulky and focused around primal groudon (and even then I've heard that it was an incredible lead in XY Ubers). It likely would have been insane in Gen 7 as well but thankfully the council never tested it. Magic Bounce wasn't even the main factor in it not being as good in gen 5, because the magic bouncers both kinda sucked to an extent. So yes, it being a "good lead" is the reason it's banworthy. It's a fantastic pokemon in current gen ubers, and again, while that's not a 1:1 representation of the banworthy factor, Deo-S ostensibly makes every single OU tier it is in worse. Related, I do remember you complaining about rillaboom and how it's "more banworthy than Chi-Yu" but the fact that you're defending Deoxys-Speed just means that you have zero clue about what the one thing that "balanced" Deoxys-S was, Priority. If they have a Hatterene you just lead something else. On a final note, Deoxys-S chunks stuff way harder than a lead that fast should thanks to the absurd power of Psycho Boost

 

[ausma]

Last night was a ride, with just constant people just arguing and arguing about terapagos, and then the whole “OU Monarchy” shit went down, but I don’t really want this community to go. Sure, we’ve had some bickering, but I think we can come back from this and be a community again. Sure, last night may have driven us apart, but we are a community, and if we don’t care for each other, then the community will fall.

Realistically speaking posts like that are 1/100 and get clowned into oblivion like it ended up being. I’m happy to see so many people so passionate and also the wide majority of the community being grateful, but I don’t think it’s harmful to point out terrible posts like that to put into perspective how much positive change there has been this generation and so people don’t take things for granted.

We appreciate you all lots though, let’s get that record straight! But we also appreciate putting yourselves in our shoes just as we’ve been trying to do with the wider community, if that makes sense! It’s good for us all to exercise kindness and open mindedness so we can all get the most of our experience here and actually work together to get the best possible metagame while having a good time doing it.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Last night was a ride, with just constant people just arguing and arguing about terapagos, and then the whole “OU Monarchy” shit went down, but I don’t really want this community to go. Sure, we’ve had some bickering, but I think we can come back from this and be a community again. Sure, last night may have driven us apart, but we are a community, and if we don’t care for each other, then the community will fall.

i agree with the sentiment, but… come back from what, exactly? this wasn't really a contentious decision. the "how to tier the forms" discussion was contentious but largely died down after it became clear that it wasn't going to immediately change what the council was planning to do and required a bigger discussion that would be out of place here. there wasn't much dissent over the result aside from one guy screaming about it and a couple people saying "maybe the ban was too fast but yeah this thing was broken as shit", and the one screaming guy had the entire forum lining up to meme on him in what was actually an inspiring display of unity. in fact, there was more criticism of the decision to allow it in at all—my personal opinion is that it shouldn't have been if we'd had all the information at the time of the decision, but we can't fault anyone for that because we hadn't yet found out about how the stellar boosts worked on terapagos specifically and we couldn't have known for certain that it'd be as much of a tera hog as it ended up being. the decision had to be made that quickly because, well, there needed to be an initial banlist

 

[Notily]

Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot

between hazard lead, expert belt 4a, and np, this is the deo-s set that i've found to be most consistent. tera'd psycho boost ohko's most mons that dont resist and +2 tera'd psycho boost kills resists like gholdengo and physdef corv. i think superpower is better than ice beam on this set since psycho boost just kills all the mons ice beam would anyways. superpower lets you 2hko blissey, catch gambit on the switch, and gives a chance to kill roaring moon after 2 layers of hazards. i like grass knot > energy ball for a stronger hit on ting-lu. with mild instead of hasty you lose out on outspeeding some stuff like scarf lando, +1 gouging fire / volcarona / kyurem, but i think the higher damage output is worth

 

[fluff!!]

Last night was a ride, with just constant people just arguing and arguing about terapagos, and then the whole “OU Monarchy” shit went down, but I don’t really want this community to go. Sure, we’ve had some bickering, but I think we can come back from this and be a community again. Sure, last night may have driven us apart, but we are a community, and if we don’t care for each other, then the community will fall.

why are you saying that like Smogon was on its deathbed lol, the OU monarchy thing was 1 post from an obvious troll about a ban that is not controversial in any way, shape or form. Leave it to the smogon forums to create controversy out of Zygarde-200%'s ban from OU.

I'm also noticing that Stored Power is starting to become a common denominator among problematic mons. Sure, Zygarde-200% would have been banned regardless of stored power's presence in its movepool, but Espathra, Manaphy , Turtle, all abuse the move to brokenness. Obviously, this may be more because of the mons themselves than the move, but I wonder what it would look like if we didn't have a plethora of broken Darks the exact same gen where everything learns Stored power. (YOU WERE BANNED FOR POSTING ABOUT STORED POWER)

 

[NotDaProGamer]

Does one of my fav mons have any niche? If so, please tell me a set or something. Thinking of sash acrobatics shell smash due to spikes immunity maybe?

 

[YubelVT]

Does one of my fav mons have any niche? If so, please tell me a set or something. Thinking of sash acrobatics shell smash due to spikes immunity maybe?

If you can kill all of the priority users and scout any potential rocky helmets, you can do a really funny shell smash thing. It's definitely really bad but you can do funny stuff with it and if that's what you're looking for, go for it! Otherwise just wait for it to drop to a lower tier and use it there

 

[NotDaProGamer]

If you can kill all of the priority users and scout any potential rocky helmets, you can do a really funny shell smash thing. It's definitely really bad but you can do funny stuff with it and if that's what you're looking for, go for it! Otherwise just wait for it to drop to a lower tier and use it there

Thanks! I mean, this is from the guy who used while was still running around so I use anything with a semblance of viability haha. (also smacking with tera dark aura wheel when they think I have to switch because funny mechanics is funny )

 

[MasterPlayer]

On the topic of low-tier getting OU usage, I do think some lower tier mons might potentially have a small niche once the meta starts to settle, mainly with some movepool additions from the 2nd DLC. I'm not saying which ones, but I'm sure some will eventually find a niche

 

[Sheerluck Holmes]

On the topic of low-tier getting OU usage, I do think some lower tier mons might potentially have a small niche once the meta starts to settle, mainly with some movepool additions from the 2nd DLC. I'm not saying which ones, but I'm sure some will eventually find a niche

That's the most nothing-burger post I've ever seen. Can you elaborate which ones you think have a place?

And to pad out my post a bit more, here's a discussion point - with the addition of Flip Turn and the buffs to their signature moves, are the Lati Twins back?

 

[Spheal boi]

Alr, I'm finally back after my days of playing the DLC on-catridge with friends, and I want to know if there is something that I have to know about the meta, also what happened during the last night if I can know it?

 

[Alternator]

Should have made Terapagos Ubers first lol. I wonder how they didn't think 160/110/110 bulk with a 120bp omni tera would be legal in ou

The initial vote to start it in OU was based on incomplete information about Stellar tera and its unique interaction with the mechanic.

160/110/110 bulk is crazy fat, and 130 SpA is excellent, but 85 speed is only 'good' and lacking instant recovery means it can't perfectly wall or exploit Better Multiscale to an oppressive extent. Combine that with being a tera hog and it's in that 'probably too much, but maybe not' realm, like Deo-S.

Then the way it uniquely abuses terastalization became known and hooo boy does that make it cracked. Base form can use its ability to ensure at least one round of setup, and sheer bulk plus lack of weaknesses makes it really hard to take down before it can either set up again or start smashing things. There's a few effective counters so it can't steamroll the entire tier, but forcing one of a very few mons is a problem in itself.

How many pokemon have been banned due to stored power and is there ever a time we look at it as the problem?

Would that save the turtle? Would it have saved espartha or magearna? End of dlc1 people mentioned manaphy set using stored power. Any others?


Or does it need to be centralizing on every user meaning we would need the weakest unevolved user of it to also be OP before we look at it? I'm guessing there are baton pass users that wouldn't be top OU threats with baton pass too.

Espathra is the only mon that was clearly banned specifically because of Stored Power, though the move has factored into other bans before.

The standard for a move ban is, roughly:

If it's a signature move, the user is banned instead of the move.
If it has limited distribution, it needs to be broken on (almost) every user.
If it has wide distribution, it needs to be broken on a bunch of different users.

 

[Real Pikachu]

160/110/110 bulk is crazy fat, and 130 SpA is excellent, but 85 speed is only 'good' and lacking instant recovery means it can't perfectly wall or exploit Better Multiscale to an oppressive extent. Combine that with being a tera hog and it's in that 'probably too much, but maybe not' realm, like Deo-S.

This mon would've 1000% been banned even without the ability to Mega Evolve, it's Mag 2.0 with better Multiscale. Guess the set or lose.

 

[Prophet]

This mon would've 1000% been banned even without the ability to Mega Evolve, it's Mag 2.0 with better Multiscale. Guess the set or lose.

No, it most certainly would not have. Kinda curious how much info some of you making posts like this even have on this mon.

 

[Magcargo]

This mon would've 1000% been banned even without the ability to Mega Evolve, it's Mag 2.0 with better Multiscale. Guess the set or lose.

Not even close. The fact this mon can be Toxic'd and is forced to Rest is a massive disadvantage compared to Magearna.

That being said, part of me thinks Magearna wouldn't be too bad to have in this current metagame.... But there is a reason I am not on the council lmao.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

Anybody know when pecharunt will appear?
Avoiding a one liner, which I swear there would be too many offences (myself included) if it was strictly policied, how are london bridge mega- and the wet bird with the fast feesh & doing together in the wet 8 turns which is Britannia?

This mon would've 1000% been banned even without the ability to Mega Evolve, it's Mag 2.0 with better Multiscale. Guess the set or lose.

On the , bros called haze and whirlwind and exist (please can we stop chatting about stored power)

 

[marriedtothedancer]

I love using Blaziken in this meta so far, and it's been quite fun to utilize Grassy Seed alongside Rillaboom to provide some EQ protection from Grassy Terrain to help guarantee at least one SD. Super fun!

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

Not even close. The fact this mon can be Toxic'd and is forced to Rest is a massive disadvantage compared to Magearna.

That being said, part of me thinks Magearna wouldn't be too bad to have in this current metagame.... But there is a reason I am not on the council lmao.

Without stored power both would be completely manageable- top mons but manageable and worth consideration at least. Stored power cracks both.

 

[Alternator]

This mon would've 1000% been banned even without the ability to Mega Evolve, it's Mag 2.0 with better Multiscale. Guess the set or lose.

Those stats are after Mega Terastal. Beforehand it's just a bulky 600 BST mon with no reliable recovery and unimpressive attacking stats, but a Gen 1 Normal type movepool.