Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Magcargo]

With Sceens taking over as seen by Vert's incredible OLT run, and with uses from the likes of Ewin, Giannis, and ABR... Which screen setter do you prefer and with what set?


I very much prefer it, and the option to run hazards as last slot is great, as you do not need to put another mon like Iron Treads or Samurott-Hisui somewhat awkwardly. Psycho Boost is still great ofc, and I have also seen other options like Thunder Wave and Teleport.


Poor winrate but part of the earlier screens, around WCoP. With the option to run STAB moves, Veil, Encore, but also Snowscape and Roar. Blizzard is another option, as is running max SpA rather than HP


Still very well disguised, and we have seen it do great while running a variety of moves such as Steel Beam, Roar, Heavy Slam, Close Combat


Dying down again after the initial boom during OLT, but still somewhat around

I really enjoyed using the Nasty Plot Tera Blast Ground set Storm Zone made for Ninetales-A. Freeze Dry + TB Ground is pretty scary even off of base 81 Special Attack and that set is good at luring a lot of its standard checks like Gholdengo,

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I really enjoyed using the Nasty Plot Tera Blast Ground set Storm Zone made for Ninetales-A. Freeze Dry + TB Ground is pretty scary even off of base 81 Special Attack and that set is good at luring a lot of its standard checks like Gholdengo,

i wonder if tb fire wouldn't be better. the coverage is decidedly worse and the rocks weakness is bad but the steel resist gives you an even bigger edge over ghold, scizor, and iron crown, while also letting you snipe corv. thoughts?

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

i wonder if tb fire wouldn't be better. the coverage is decidedly worse and the rocks weakness is bad but the steel resist gives you an even bigger edge over ghold, scizor, and iron crown, while also letting you snipe corv. thoughts?

I assume it has something to do with Heatran's flash fire hindering tb fire Atales perhaps but I think the viable ground types available like Great Tusk or Lando-T could help ease the situation but then again, I assume will first set up rocks and that would hurt Atales a lot if it switches in again both pre and post-tera (assuming was spinblocked by Pecha or Ghold and the switch mu games begins after that).

 

[EpicGuy321]

i wonder if tb fire wouldn't be better. the coverage is decidedly worse and the rocks weakness is bad but the steel resist gives you an even bigger edge over ghold, scizor, and iron crown, while also letting you snipe corv. thoughts?

I assume Ground is used specifically for Gking as it resists Poison, hits it SE, and is immune to twave. Also Heatran which is now OU, and potentially to catch Thunderclap.

 

[CatsForGold]

Ground also makes it resist rocks, allowing it to switch in more throughout a match to re-establish screens

 

[658Greninja]

some meta thoughts


+ Ting-Lu is still a top tier mon but pain split Hatt being top 10 in usage and higher usage of grasses (Tealpon, Apple, Rilla) does tank its performance in the meta.


+ NP aren’t as good rn lacking defensive utility other plotters have (Torn, Rai, etc) but it’s the best screens setter and the extra utility puts it above Ayy Tales. Screens is trending upwards again with how many cracked ass abusers exist.


+ Not sure why Pecha dropped last slate, it checks the big 3 physical mons (Zama/Dnite/Waterpon) and NP re-gained traction during OLT and SCL.


+ Hydrapple is legit A- material. Walls every Wellspring lacking Play Rough and sees frequent usage on Sand which has seen an upwards trend. It’s a fantastic breaker and Tera abuser that’s feeds off of Zama/Ting/Ghold BOs.


+ Booster SpA Wake is super slept on. A lot of offenses drop to it after an Agility and still puts in work against bulkier structures.


+ Lots of Sand on the ladder. Will it last? Idk, but Ttar’s defensive utility coupled with its impressive progress making capabilities (Knock + Sand) has been looked at more. CB nearly 2HKOs everything, even Dozo drops to CB 2 Stone Edges with Tera Rock.


+ Tealpon is rly good rn despite the spam of birds and Kyurem. A particular set I’ve become fond of is SD Encore.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

+ Hydrapple is legit A- material. Walls every Wellspring lacking Play Rough and sees frequent usage on Sand which has seen an upwards trend. It’s a fantastic breaker and Tera abuser that’s feeds off of Zama/Ting/Ghold BOs.

I always feel like every SD Wellspring runs Play Rough, and the 4-attack ones can Knock its Boots off and chip it with U-Turn.
Hydrapple feels like B or B+ for me.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

+ Hydrapple is legit A- material. Walls every Wellspring lacking Play Rough and sees frequent usage on Sand which has seen an upwards trend. It’s a fantastic breaker and Tera abuser that’s feeds off of Zama/Ting/Ghold BOs.

i'd put it at a proper right now even. so many of the top mons just give it a signed invitation to switch in and eat something. personally, i'd keep my eyes on body press, which neatly folds gambit and ttar in half and gives apple the ability to break blissey without needing to futz around with setup wars and crit fishing. seems like it could be a dangerous option in the right hands

i also have a hunch that sand is not done yet and we're going to see it do something spectacular in the next couple months

 

[FCKNfuego]

i agree with you on some level, but you also have to remember that an unban or clause change is a change in the status quo, the same way a ban is. if someone wants the status quo to change, they should provide some sort of reasoning as to why their new paradigm is better in a meaningful way, and nobody has done that for species clause.

I don't really care either way for species clause but changing the status quo regarding bans has never been about proving why "a new paradigm" is better nor how it helps or what it adds to a metagame.

Bans have primarily always been about whether something is actually broken or not. Pretty straightforward.

Discussion on things like what's it's adding to a metagame as a means to validate whether it's uber or not just adds more subjective complexity that people tend to never agree on anyway.


Anyways...sharing a fun Gambit set to mess around with that I haven't seen used at all. Primarily I use Iron head but going mono Dark is decent. Tera Ghost for the Body Pressers.

Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Iron Head / Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

 

[Estradiol5mg]

I don't really care either way for species clause but changing the status quo regarding bans has never been about proving why "a new paradigm" is better nor how it helps or what it adds to a metagame.

Bans have primarily always been about whether something is actually broken or not. Pretty straightforward.

Discussion on things like what's it's adding to a metagame as a means to validate whether it's uber or not just adds more subjective complexity that people tend to never agree on anyway.


Anyways...sharing a fun Gambit set to mess around with that I haven't seen used at all. Primarily I use Iron head but going mono Dark is decent. Tera Ghost for the Body Pressers.

Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Iron Head / Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

encore dnite hard counters this but it hard counters any other gambit set, but anyway i feel like in situations where you would sub with gambit you can just attack so its not rlly worth giving up the cowtow or the iron head

 

[U_Quokka]

I don't really care either way for species clause but changing the status quo regarding bans has never been about proving why "a new paradigm" is better nor how it helps or what it adds to a metagame.

Bans have primarily always been about whether something is actually broken or not. Pretty straightforward.

Discussion on things like what's it's adding to a metagame as a means to validate whether it's uber or not just adds more subjective complexity that people tend to never agree on anyway.


Anyways...sharing a fun Gambit set to mess around with that I haven't seen used at all. Primarily I use Iron head but going mono Dark is decent. Tera Ghost for the Body Pressers.

Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Iron Head / Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

Don't most IPressers still beat this? W/O KTC Corv can still stall you out and chip you to death with helmet and Zama can still Crunch/Roar to beat this.

 

[Morkal]

Hi everyone! Sorry for my long absence as of late, life pretty much hasn't stopped moving for me (and probably won't slow down for a bit until later next year). I've only been able to play a bit here and there, but a Pokémon that I've been enjoying quite a bit in OU is Wo-Chien.

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 188 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Taunt / Foul Play
- Leaf Storm​

96 Speed EVs put Wo-Chien at 200 speed, letting it outspeed neutral 252 Kingambit, Ursaluna, Iron Hands, and Azumarill, along with non-scarf Glimmora, 0 neutral bulky Heatran, and 0 neutral bulky Raging Bolt. With 188 Special Attack and Leaf Storm, Wo-Chien can pull off impressive feats like OHKOing physical Dondozo and Azumarill, along with having a 33% chance to OHKO bulky Tera Water Gliscor. Knock Off, Leech Seed, and Taunt provide an incredible utility trifecta, but if you think having an actual hard-hitting Dark-type attack would be more helpful here, you could run STAB Foul Play. Additional movepool options for different set variants that you could use with Wo-Chien are Body Press, Ruination, Giga Drain, Dark Pulse, Light Screen, Reflect, Zen Headbutt, and Power Whip.

Damage Calculations

188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 504-594 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 428-506 (125.1 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 314-372 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hi everyone! Sorry for my long absence as of late, life pretty much hasn't stopped moving for me (and probably won't slow down for a bit until later next year). I've only been able to play a bit here and there, but a Pokémon that I've been enjoying quite a bit in OU is Wo-Chien.

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 188 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Taunt / Foul Play
- Leaf Storm​

96 Speed EVs put Wo-Chien at 200 speed, letting it outspeed neutral 252 Kingambit, Ursaluna, Iron Hands, and Azumarill, along with non-scarf Glimmora, 0 neutral bulky Heatran, and 0 neutral bulky Raging Bolt. With 188 Special Attack and Leaf Storm, Wo-Chien can pull off impressive feats like OHKOing physical Dondozo and Azumarill, along with having a 33% chance to OHKO bulky Tera Water Gliscor. Knock Off, Leech Seed, and Taunt provide an incredible utility trifecta, but if you think having an actual hard-hitting Dark-type attack would be more helpful here, you could run STAB Foul Play. Additional movepool options for different set variants that you could use with Wo-Chien are Body Press, Ruination, Giga Drain, Dark Pulse, Light Screen, Reflect, Zen Headbutt, and Power Whip.

Damage Calculations

188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 504-594 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 428-506 (125.1 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 314-372 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

time is a flat circle

Ladies & Gentlemen
I would like to talk to you about the Pokémon Wo-Chien

The Pokémon Wo-Chien has been put in the UU Tier.
I feel an error has been made with Wo-Chien.

I feel Wo-Chien is a OU Tier Pokémon.
Am I the only one who feels this way?

I would like to share with you a Wo-Chien Game.
The game is low quality so forgive me if you see any errors or mistakes.
The game is also very unusual as my opponent seems to have been using a team I’m not familiar with.

My team is Bulky Offense Team with Skeledirge or Donzdo
My opponent team is a Stall team with PP reduction & Disabling moves.

I don’t want to spoil to much, but let me say my opponent ran a Tanky Cursed Body DragonPult with Disable.
We can all agree not many people run a Dragonpult like that so it was a very interesting and unusual team set up.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1734569584

I will admit the battle was long.
It took over 100 rounds.
The reason why is due to my style of Play.

In Chess, The terminology people use to describe my play style is Positional.
I am a positional player.

Some people in chess are aggressive.
They like fast attacks and sacrificing pieces to win in blaze of glory.

We would call Hyper Offense aggressive.
It’s like someone taking a Gun and shooting a person in head.
It’s aggressive and fast.

Positional Play would be like putting a person in a Big oven and slowly turning the temperature from low to medium to high.
A person in an oven will die.
It’s going to be slow, painful and methodical.

Pokémon Death by thousands Spike entries cuts!
I’m play in a way which forces you to switch and when you do you will take hazard damage.
I’m keep chipping you down.
I’m keep the pressure on you.
I’m slowly turn up the heat, until your position cracks or you boil over inside and make a mistake.

My opponent resigned in this game.
The reason she resigned is because she did a defensive Terra to save her Pokémon.
The problem is the Terra she did opened the flood gates for my true sweeper.

The match winner in this battle was going to be Skeledirge.
My opponent had a counter to my Skeledirge, but I positionally kept pressuring my opponent with some of my other Pokémon.
My opponent felt the pressure and Terra her Pokemon to save it from fainting, but in the process it caused my Skeledirge to become unchallenged.

NOW RETURNING BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND:
Skeledirge might have been Match Winner!

HOWEVER, IF WE WAS TO GIVE AN MVP (MOST VALUEABLE POKÉMON) AWARD, IT WOULD HAVE TO GO TO WO-CHIEN!
Did you see Wo-Chien in that battle?

My opponent said NOTHING, BUT YOU CAN TELL IN THE BATTLE SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED BY THAT WO-CHEIN.
She threw every Pokémon she had to kill my Wo-Chien.

She tried to faint him 6 times with 6 different Pokémon.
My Wo-Chien looked like a cat with 9 lives.

Their is no way Wo-Chien is UU Pokémon.
Wo-Chien is to insane to be in UU.
Wo-Chien has OU all over him.

You know my style of play ladies and gentlemen!
Death by thousand Spike Entry Hazard cuts!

- Imagine Spikes on the field.
- A Tanky Wo-Chien staring you down
- Wo-Chien moves throwing Leech Seed at you

WHAT DO YOU DO?
Do you stay in and let the Leech Seed suck the life out of your Pokémon?
or
Do you switch out and fall right into my deadly strategies Trap?

Do those options even sound good?
I’m telling you this Pokémon is to powerful for UU.

I am going to show you the build I used in the above Pokemon Battle.

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Dark Pulse
- Energy Ball

WARNING: I STILL DON’T KNOW WHAT MOVES I WANT TO RUN ON WO-CHIEN.

Wo-Chien move pool is so insane I struggle trying to figure out what I want to run on him.
I’m like a little kid in a candy store.

I went with a standard bare bones set up.
He has little bit more Special Atk vs. Atk.
He is Dark & Grass.

I went with 1 Dark move & 1 Grass move which are Special Atk that have 100% accuracy.
My strategy is about wearing enemy down with consistent damage and pressure.

I went with Leech Seed & Protect.
It is a set up I have ran in the past which I love.

These 4 moves caused all the devastation in the PokéMon Battle.
They are not even the tip of the iceberg.

He has so many more moves which can be used in addition to the ones I already used.
- They gave him Knock off.
All the players trying to counter my strategy with Heavy Duty Boots
”Oooppss” Knock off says Good Bye

- They gave him Taunt.
It can stop set ups against him as well as Pokémon who may try to recover health against him

- They gave him both Screens
If you thought he was tough to kill WITHOUT screens, Wait, until he puts them up.

- They gave him Crippling moves
He can paralyze & toxic

I am like fat kid in candy store so many moves to try so little time.
Image the following set up:
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Reflect
- Light Screen

THE GREAT WALL OF CHINA BROUGHT TO YOU BY WO-CHEIN DYNASTY!
His name even sounds like Chinese Emperor are you kidding me?

A UU Pokémon?
I don’t believe it
I look at this Pokémon and think he is Ferrothorn on Steriods.

but in seriousness, i do think wo-chien has niche potential here. as ting-lu already demonstrates, literally nothing likes switching into ruination, and almost nothing likes switching into knock or leech seed either. it's a fantastic way to force progress. there is the minor issue that it doesn't actually force switches because it matches up poorly against almost everything in the tier, but i'm sure the right set with the right support could take advantage of bootspam and other momentum-heavy teams

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Hi everyone! Sorry for my long absence as of late, life pretty much hasn't stopped moving for me (and probably won't slow down for a bit until later next year). I've only been able to play a bit here and there, but a Pokémon that I've been enjoying quite a bit in OU is Wo-Chien.

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 188 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Taunt / Foul Play
- Leaf Storm​

96 Speed EVs put Wo-Chien at 200 speed, letting it outspeed neutral 252 Kingambit, Ursaluna, Iron Hands, and Azumarill, along with non-scarf Glimmora, 0 neutral bulky Heatran, and 0 neutral bulky Raging Bolt. With 188 Special Attack and Leaf Storm, Wo-Chien can pull off impressive feats like OHKOing physical Dondozo and Azumarill, along with having a 33% chance to OHKO bulky Tera Water Gliscor. Knock Off, Leech Seed, and Taunt provide an incredible utility trifecta, but if you think having an actual hard-hitting Dark-type attack would be more helpful here, you could run STAB Foul Play. Additional movepool options for different set variants that you could use with Wo-Chien are Body Press, Ruination, Giga Drain, Dark Pulse, Light Screen, Reflect, Zen Headbutt, and Power Whip.

Damage Calculations

188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 504-594 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 428-506 (125.1 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 314-372 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

I've been running a defensive (may have to try this variation?) Wo-chien on a sand team and its actually... functioning well?? A bulky grass that isn't 2x weak to ice is weak (u-turn weakness hurts though.....) actually feels pretty goated. Ruination/foulplay/leech/leafstorm feels good.