Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[JackRG]

This set is fantastic. +2 Ghost Sneak can prevent a lot of revenge killing if you’re still +0 speed and Polter just hits so hard that you’re usually forcing progress early if you’re not cleaning late.

The only cautionary tale is that it mandates hyper specific support and only really works on a limited scope of archetypes, but I do feel like the metagame right now is making the most of Ceruledge’s profile.

This post outlines LO Ceru's strength and weaknesses very well, and I'm curious to see how to the metagame will adapt to it. Maybe Ting-Lu will start running more physdef to handle this set better, and/or faster revenge killers like Dragapult will experiment with different Teras to be able to live +2 shadow sneak. Having a revenge killer that can live +2 Tera Ghost LO Shadow Sneak is very important, especially on balance. As an example, I've been liking Grasspon on balance already to handle wellspring, and it actually isn't too difficult to EV it to live this:

Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Def / 140 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Spikes

Ceru def isn't broken though lol, and it is honestly one of the better offensive Pokémon designs from this gen, as despite its strengths it has drawbacks like mediocre bulk and a reasonable speed tier, especially when you compare it to the many heinously designed mons from this gen like Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire. If there's any aspect of Ceruledge that is arguably unhealthy/broken, it's screens, but I digress.

Name a single broken pokemon in OU - that's right there's none.

Alomomola is another sitting duck that very often needs to be killed last and i would personally love to see that bs mon suspect tested.

Don't these two statements completely contradict each other?

 

[CooolTrainer]

The meta going back to HO spam is sort of a hummer tbh. Feels like nothing is really changing.

 

[Finchinator]

The meta going back to HO spam is sort of a hummer tbh. Feels like nothing is really changing.

I definitely don’t think the metagame’s progression is this linear or just “HO spam” at all

 

[cat111ca]

The meta going back to HO spam is sort of a hummer tbh. Feels like nothing is really changing.

If you feel that way maybe use !
If you don't feel that way maybe use !
Please use cobalion or talk about y not

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If you feel that way maybe use !
If you don't feel that way maybe use !
Please use cobalion or talk about y not

my main question here is, what does cobalion have over treads as an early-game lead or utility pivot? treads has a similar speed tier which it can bolster significantly using booster energy, plus rapid spin for opposing hazard leads, knock off for utility sets, and just a generally better anti-lead matchup spread. it also has very similar bulk to cobalion, albeit a little less in the physical department. cobalion's use cases in uu are plentiful, but up here it seems like it would overlap with treads enough that i'm iffy about using it. i can definitely see it doing something here, though—it has a fantastic matchup against non-low-kick gambit, it packs thunder wave and taunt which iron treads notably lacks, and the stab body press gives it a solid damage output without having to invest in an attacking stat. but is that enough? i think this warrants some discussion

 

[Eeveeto]

my main question here is, what does cobalion have over treads as an early-game lead or utility pivot? treads has a similar speed tier which it can bolster significantly using booster energy, plus rapid spin for opposing hazard leads, knock off for utility sets, and just a generally better anti-lead matchup spread. it also has very similar bulk to cobalion, albeit a little less in the physical department. cobalion's use cases in uu are plentiful, but up here it seems like it would overlap with treads enough that i'm iffy about using it. i can definitely see it doing something here, though—it has a fantastic matchup against non-low-kick gambit, it packs thunder wave and taunt which iron treads notably lacks, and the stab body press gives it a solid damage output without having to invest in an attacking stat. but is that enough? i think this warrants some discussion

Leave the Body Press stuff entirely to Zamazenta and use Specs Cobalion. 90 Special Attack might be too low, but unlike Iron Crown you don't have to Tera as often and have Vacuum Wave too vs more offensive teams.

 

[Karxrida]

Leave the Body Press stuff entirely to Zamazenta and use Specs Cobalion. 90 Special Attack might be too low, but unlike Iron Crown you don't have to Tera as often and have Vacuum Wave too vs more offensive teams.

I feel like if you're using Cobalion it's probably due to weird role compression where your team doesn't want Zamazenta for some reason, so Body Press is fine. tbh if I was using Cobalion I'd probably stick with Leftovers since it takes like no damage from SR, plus you can still leverage Taunt and/or T-Wave. Though Vacuum Wave is a cool tech option.

 

[cat111ca]

my main question here is, what does cobalion have over treads as an early-game lead or utility pivot? treads has a similar speed tier which it can bolster significantly using booster energy, plus rapid spin for opposing hazard leads, knock off for utility sets, and just a generally better anti-lead matchup spread. it also has very similar bulk to cobalion, albeit a little less in the physical department. cobalion's use cases in uu are plentiful, but up here it seems like it would overlap with treads enough that i'm iffy about using it. i can definitely see it doing something here, though—it has a fantastic matchup against non-low-kick gambit, it packs thunder wave and taunt which iron treads notably lacks, and the stab body press gives it a solid damage output without having to invest in an attacking stat. but is that enough? i think this warrants some discussion

It isn't ground type. It's able to take ivy cudgels like a champ. It resistaces ice. Has taunt and Twave. And body press for. damage.
If you don't need knock off or rapid spin it's a combination of the best parts of tusk and treads. Also talk about a knock off absorber. It's like if you took kingambit's defensive utility and replace damage with momentum and utility

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It isn't ground type. It's able to take ivy cudgels like a champ. It resistaces ice. Has taunt and Twave. And body press for. damage.

honestly, these are good points, and i think there's probably some hyper-specific comp out there that would benefit from all these in the same slot. but cobalion is going to have to really stand out to justify using it over tusk, treads, or zama in any areas where any of those overlap, and i don't know whether these tools distinguish it that much, especially with the opportunity cost

If you don't need knock off or rapid spin it's a combination of the best parts of tusk and treads.

Also talk about a knock off absorber. It's like if you took kingambit's defensive utility and replace damage with momentum and utility

i really don't think this comparison makes sense to make, and i don't really think cobalion is that good of a knock absorber. sure, it double resists rocks, but it still takes normal damage from spikes and that's not really something you want in a knock absorber. and the attack boost it gets from tanking a knock doesn't really matter when cobalion's standard damage options are body press and volt switch

 

[Rekka's Backend]

What are some of your favorite Hydrapple spreads or sets? I've been enjoying sticky hold rocky helmet physdef set but I'm curious if any of y'all have workshopped any spreads for more offensive specific comp ones. This is the one I've been enjoying a lot:

Hydrapple @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fickle Beam
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Body Press

Body Press for steel types (team has ghold answers so its less stressful on Hydrapple) or Blissey, Giga Drain for some modest recovery in physhit exchanges (Largely Samu and Tusky tho), with enough HP to live a 2X ice hit from Tusk that isn't booster attack. I prefer Fickle beam because I like to leave it in to take a hit or two and the SPA loss from Draco hurts a bit.

 

[cat111ca]

I don't get it. I understand that rapid spin is a major reason these are good. But there are teams who don't need more hazard control. If you use for example.

 

[soupeater]

I don't get it. I understand that rapid spin is a major reason these are good. But there are teams who don't need more hazard control. If you use for example.

Gweezing Teams almost always benefit from some form of additional hazard control, due to the fact that they're usually built around pokemon/sets that rely on it and the fact that some mons threaten Gweezing too much for it to defog into them.

Also theres the "If you don't need knock off" part, which like, knock off is just one of the best moves in the game. Even if you don't use it with Hazard Stack, removing leftovers/AV/Rocky Helmet/Covert Cloak/etc is still an extremely easy way to make progress.

 

[Estradiol5mg]

I really want to talk about 's potential. It can deal good damage with body press, pivot, set rocks and is practically immune to stealth rock. It's like a diet great tusk that's a steel type instead of ground. I want y'all to think about it's potential

I like coballion a lot the main problem with it is imo the ground weakness in its role, it makes it a bit harder to send it as a rocks lead with lando t, tusk, and glim around maybe balloon or tera grass could alleviate that but atp just use a lando t, the steel type is very nice for glim, but it struggles a fuck ton into birds plus corv cause of the fire weakness lack of electric resist and fighting weakness, additonally its pivoting move being volt switch doesnt help if it was uturn it would be a lot better tho

 

[Aminal]

I'm not jumping at the chance to use Cobalion here either, but we're only talking about it as a defensive mon, where I agree its completely overshadowed by the P-Donphans. But I think that it has value as an offensive mon: switch into a Knock Off or Kowtow Cleave, and all of a sudden +1 off 90 base attack with good bulk and decent speed isn't too bad. Unfortunately, its only good physical coverage move is Stone Edge, but it does get access to Taunt to shut down stall, T-Wave, Roar, the aforementioned Stealth Rock, and Quick Attack (lol). With a Booster Energy, the P-Dons have better offensive stats (in fact, 0 Atk EV GT > 252 Atk Jolly Cobalion), but Cobalion can instead come in throughout the battle and soak up Knock Offs and hit back a little hard and pretty fast.

With all that said, I tried it out with 252/252 Jolly with Stone Edge and Taunt and even on the lower ladder it is ass. 90 base attack does not cut it in this day and age and there are far too many powerful fighting and ground types around for a player to be switching this guy in and out without Boots or Leftovers. It also just cannot do anything against most common Knock Off users, such as Great Tusk/Gliscor (too bulky), Ogerpon (usually outsped by it), Meow (U-turns out), etc.