Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[1LDK]

(btw your post has Maushold as "viable hazard removal" but the mon is not a good mon in the tier at all so it really is fringe at best as a remover).

Okay so i did the math and

252 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Maushold: 336-396 (116.2 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO (make it rain also OHKO if its not -1)
252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 144-170 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO (it only has a chance to OHKO if +2)

Tidy is not blocked by GaG, so Maus goes from viable to shaky (instead of unviable) because maus DOES outspeed non scarf dengo by a country mile, im gonna change it, but the maus its still semi viable, trust me bro i swear

 

[Troubadour1]

I've been trying to make Slither Wing work in OU. What are some good sets for it? Also, what are some good partners for Slither Wing?

 

[Max op boy]

I've been trying to make Slither Wing work in OU. What are some good sets for it? Also, what are some good partners for Slither Wing?

Choice scarf choice,band that’s it maybe life orb first impressio is a good move to run band and scarf

 

[awyp]

I've been trying to make Slither Wing work in OU. What are some good sets for it? Also, what are some good partners for Slither Wing?

Slither Wing @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug / Steel/ Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz / Tera Blast


Slither Wing @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug / Steel / Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Morning Sun / Will-O-Wisp / Flame Charge
- Leech Life
- Close Combat / Brick Break


In OU I think a good partner would be Clodsire or Gastrodon, a defensive wall in general might be needed in order to switch into certain weaknesses

 

[zantaRay]

Slither wing loves sun. The boost makes its first impression truely insane. It's also not bad at switching into ground moves.

 

[MeddlinKidz]

After having played around with it in this and a few other formats, Revival Blessing feels like it is not broken. Bringing a mon (usually a frail one) back at 50% can be dealt with in a lot of situations. The two users of this move are fringe viable as is, with Rabsca strictly on TR and Pawmot having offensive utility with Mach Punch and its coverage.

However, I think the move is fundamentally uncompetitive. I expect to go into OU games playing 6v6 or going into VGC playing a 4v4. Suddenly, the other guy has an extra .5 mons I need to worry about? There are ways to abuse it more with RestTalk and that wild Assist strategy in NatDex. Overall, I just do not think this move should have ever been made and it is a very good thing that it is not on any higher tier mons.

 

[Parrot6632]

I've been trying to make Slither Wing work in OU. What are some good sets for it? Also, what are some good partners for Slither Wing?

I haven't been able to find a sit that really clicks with me yet, but i've had the most success running 252 hp 252 atk with AV. moves are first impression, close combat, earthquake, and then a flex slot for flare blitz/leech life/u-turn/brick break/wild charge. Alternatively his utility movepool is actually really solid, so you could run something like 252 hp 252 def with u-turn, morning sun, will o wisp, close combat/brick break/earthquake and HDB or leftovers. It feels like he has the potential to be a really good pokemon, but its hard to find the right combination of factors that pushes him over the edge.

 

[ryangregory78]

I'm going to expose my overall scrubness here, since I don't actually play OU and just casually watch from the sides... but is that Iron Jugulis placement justified? Is it actually good?
I took a look at its decent stats (122SpA, 108Spe), but what else? It doesn't get Nasty Plot or even Calm Mind, it doesn't get hazards or Roost, it's not particularly bulky, its best STAB move is Dark Pulse and the ever unreliable Hurricane.
It's the one Paradox I really cannot think up a niche for. At best a Specs U-Turner but I feel Iron Moth already does that way better.

Am I wrong? Is there some strat I'm not seeing?

No, you're fine. It just that Finch (in my opinion, at least) ranked Jugulis WAY higher than it ever should be, if it even belongs in a rankings discussion period.

Everything you brought up about this Pokemon is essentially what makes it so awful. Having to rely on Air Slash, only having so much SpA, and while the speed tier is really nice, you really don't get anything out of it. I just think it's crazy that anyone would rank Jugulis higher than shit like Skewda, Iron Hands, Torkoal (!!!), and Hatterene when all of those mons are leaps and bounds better than Jugulis could ever be. It's sad, honestly - what could've been a really cool robo-Hydreigon reskin turned out to be a fucking joke of a Pokemon.

 

[Taka]

After having played around with it in this and a few other formats, Revival Blessing feels like it is not broken. Bringing a mon (usually a frail one) back at 50% can be dealt with in a lot of situations. The two users of this move are fringe viable as is, with Rabsca strictly on TR and Pawmot having offensive utility with Mach Punch and its coverage.

However, I think the move is fundamentally uncompetitive. I expect to go into OU games playing 6v6 or going into VGC playing a 4v4. Suddenly, the other guy has an extra .5 mons I need to worry about? There are ways to abuse it more with RestTalk and that wild Assist strategy in NatDex. Overall, I just do not think this move should have ever been made and it is a very good thing that it is not on any higher tier mons.

Now although it isn’t on any gamebreaking mons, Pawmot is usable in OU. It’s not the worst thing to run and certainly is decent offensively. The handicap of running pawmot is never more than the value from revival blessing, especially paired with chi yu or Chien pao

 

[ryangregory78]

I haven't been able to find a sit that really clicks with me yet, but i've had the most success running 252 hp 252 atk with AV. moves are first impression, close combat, earthquake, and then a flex slot for flare blitz/leech life/u-turn/brick break/wild charge. Alternatively his utility movepool is actually really solid, so you could run something like 252 hp 252 def with u-turn, morning sun, will o wisp, close combat/brick break/earthquake and HDB or leftovers. It feels like he has the potential to be a really good pokemon, but its hard to find the right combination of factors that pushes him over the edge.

IMO the best way to run Slither is to just slap on a Band on a Sun team and go the fuck to work. Sure, it's slow and not necessarily bulky, either, but that doesn't matter when Tera Bug First Impression hits like a freight train. Definitely not a consistent Pokemon by any stretch of the word, but it's a lotta fun and can pull shifts from time to time given how offensive the current meta is.

 

[Athyestic]

Slither Wing @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug / Steel / Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Morning Sun / Will-O-Wisp / Flame Charge
- Leech Life
- Close Combat / Brick Break

Alternatively, something far more sinister to pair with this:
Slither Wing @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 11 Atk
- Bulk Up
- Morning Sun
- Leech Life
- Brick Break
11 Attack IVs and no EVs gives you a Speed Boost with Protosynthesis, removing the need for Flame Charge and the extra bulk allowing you to set up a couple more Bulk Ups, which might be curtains for teams ill equipped to deal with the slither.

 

[Moyashi]

You first said only the Dons. Now you say only Cyclizar, except Sun teams. So this is already getting less and less absolute from your original assertion.

I'll be real. I don't think about Zar as a spinner almost ever so it escaped my thought process.

Running torkoal off of sun teams is a big ask given it doesn't really do much as a non sun mon that others don't do better and its flaws make it hard to fit beyond sun.

I legitimately don't understand why certain people seem to be so self restrictive when dealing with Gholdengo if they find it to be such a problem.

No one is being self restrictive. The meta is quite restrictive as is and fitting more fringe picks is pretty difficult as those mons aren't doing much to justify their slot over better pokemon.

 

[Napoli Burns]

S tier is what i would ban if tera will stay in OU

The ape is a brainless bulky stallbreaker very hard to play around until u don't scout is tera, lot of utility moves like taunt, awesome starting typing and coverage and it makes so frustating playing balanced.

Chi-yu is another insane pokemon with godly coverage and can wallbreak, clean and get a kill everytime it enters. Maybe if tera will be banned it would get even stronger since it would be harder to "bait" by changing your typing.

Gold makes impossible clean hazards, making the presence of maushold vital in this metagame. Also very good typing + based moveset + bulkyness and lmao that ability.

c tier isn't really a c tier, they are simply pokemon that can fit in almost any team to give insanely good support by only investing a slot, most of times offensively and defensively

But again the only real problem for me is tera, is a mechanic that nintendo made for VGC and for cool appealing marketing. I am currently playing doubles (6 vs 6) and it feel a lot more balanced even if still very good.

 

[awyp]

I just had my first experience on the ladder (where I did win the game but really annoyed) where I witnessed Revival Blessing Sleep Talk. My opponent is using Rabsca which is one of the two Pokémon that can learn Revival Blessing. So I take 2 Pokémon of my opponents out, I'm in the driver seat cool. Rabsca comes out and I setup Stealth Rocks, Revival Blessing is used on my opponents side. Cool, no big deal. I go to chip down Rabsca, it rests up. Sleep Talks into Revival Blessing again....revives the 2nd Pokemon that I had killed off.

This is uncompetitve, I stated here a couple of days ago that I don't think Revival Blessing warrants a ban alone but it being used more than 1 time in game in conjunction with Sleep Talk is straight up ridiculous. If there can't be a conjunction ban rule on Revival Blessing + Sleep Talk because it becomes too complicated, Revival Blessing the move needs to be banned outright.

People are becoming creative with Revival Blessing, we also now have Leppa Berry (10 PP to the first of the holder's moves to reach 0 PP. Single use.) + Revival Blessing which confirms what I thought which is people are always going to find ways to abuse Revival Blessing if it's legal. Which means Revival Blessing needs to banned outright.

 

[Athyestic]

Just for fun, I’ve compiled spreads for every (legal) paradox Pokémon that allows them to get a speed boost from Protosynthesis/Quark Drive.
Roaring Moon
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
This one might be genuinely alright, since you’re not sacrificing much to get it. Though I’m unsure what you’d actually do with this set, I suppose it could be a good cleaner but with Dragon Dance it probably won’t need it.
Great Tusk
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
This one’s just the “Fast Bulky Support” sample EVs, which is incredibly hilarious. This one is more for the funny than anything else, Rapid Spin + attack boost from protosynthesis does this but better.
Sandy Shocks
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
This one is the first one that looks genuinely good, Sandy Shocks can just as easily run Magnet or Life Orb to boost its power, serving as a powerful attacker, potential offensive rocker/spiker, and overall cool mon. 48 HP EVs aren’t a lot, but they are a bit of bulk.
(just dont put more than 216 EVs in spd) (Scream Tail)
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 40 HP / 216 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
As long as you follow the nickname, Scream Tail is easy to EV for a speed boost. I don’t know when youd want it, but it could be useful and this spread is still pretty good at tanking hits.

not possible D: (Brute Bonnet)
Ability: Protosynthesis
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
Unfortunately Brute Bonnet comes 5 attack points off from being possible. It’s still Brute Bonnet though, and you will ABSOLUTELY hate losing the damage if you can help it, so it’s fine.
Slither Wing
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 11 Atk
I’ve made a post on this already.
not possible D: (Iron Hands)
Ability: Quark Drive
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
The metal Hariyama is far too slow for this to work, and I doubt anyone is surprised. You don’t even want the speed boost.
Iron Jugulis
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 120 HP / 136 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
This one is pretty reasonable for specs sets, but it’s not like Iron Jugular is any good so. Maybe the extra bulk helps with taking a hit in a pinch?
Iron Moth
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 124 HP / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
This one we’ve seen a little bit here and there, its certainly a fine set but nothing too crazy. Mostly paired with Fiery Dance for offensive sets, and defensive sets can do all sorts of things.
Iron Thorns
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 23 Atk
So this is possible. I was really surprised to see this, and it’s actually a little bit more reasonable than Kartana, but it won’t serve any purpose. Iron Thorns isn’t too good, it has dragon dance to boost its speed, and misses the power greatly.
Iron Treads
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 56 HP / 200 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Iron Treads, thanks to being faster than it’s counterpart Great Tusk, can actually invest much of its EVs into attack and still have a speed boost. Again, Rapid Spin +atk boost is probably better anyway, but it’s certainly something.
no modifications needed (Iron Valiant)
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Yeah so this Pokémon can run max max jolly and get a speed boost, incredibly stupid ik but that’s mons I guess.

That’s all of them

 

[1LDK]

speaking of iron hand, has someone tried trick room this gen with him as a conqueldur esque rol?
pincurchin also is slow as fuck, meaning in trick room is going nuts, i tried to make trick room once but i really dont have any idea on how to do it, but it defently has potential for disaster

 

[Critaquil]

speaking of iron hand, has someone tried trick room this gen with him as a conqueldur esque rol?
pincurchin also is slow as fuck, meaning in trick room is going nuts, i tried to make trick room once but i really dont have any idea on how to do it, but it defently has potential for disaster

It has potential, thats for sure, but it suffers from losing a ton of its primary abusers/setters, namely, alolawak, cressellia, melmetal, porygon-2, crawdaunt, and glastrier, the lack of abusers is somewhat mitigated by new abusers in iron hands and kingambit, but the lack of good setters really stings, losing p2 was a huge hit, as it was a much needed ghost immunity that also served as a general defensive utility mon that could set trick room and teleport for free switches, and as gen 9 didn't exactly give any good new setters the only reliable options are slowtwins (namely king) and hatterene, which while not horrid is also a pretty limited pool of good tr setters.

 

[Finchinator]

Dragapult is hands down one of the mons that deserve more respect in the current meta. But what's Finchinator's argument for dragapult being top 3? Why is dragapult tiered higher than the likes of Roaring moon, Dragonite, Cyclizer, Chien Pao, Annihilape? Does Finchinator say his reasoning for dragapult's tiering placement relative to the aforementioned group of mons in the video by any chance? Being who he is, I'd love to hear out his thoughts on this.

I don’t believe he makes any comparison between pult and those pokemons you mentioned in his reasoning for placing dragapult so highly. At least, not in the video. Also, I'll screenshot the top half portion of Finchinator's tier list.

View attachment 472235

I'm going to expose my overall scrubness here, since I don't actually play OU and just casually watch from the sides... but is that Iron Jugulis placement justified? Is it actually good?
I took a look at its decent stats (122SpA, 108Spe), but what else? It doesn't get Nasty Plot or even Calm Mind, it doesn't get hazards or Roost, it's not particularly bulky, its best STAB move is Dark Pulse and the ever unreliable Hurricane.
It's the one Paradox I really cannot think up a niche for. At best a Specs U-Turner but I feel Iron Moth already does that way better.

Am I wrong? Is there some strat I'm not seeing?

No, you're fine. It just that Finch (in my opinion, at least) ranked Jugulis WAY higher than it ever should be, if it even belongs in a rankings discussion period.

Everything you brought up about this Pokemon is essentially what makes it so awful. Having to rely on Air Slash, only having so much SpA, and while the speed tier is really nice, you really don't get anything out of it. I just think it's crazy that anyone would rank Jugulis higher than shit like Skewda, Iron Hands, Torkoal (!!!), and Hatterene when all of those mons are leaps and bounds better than Jugulis could ever be. It's sad, honestly - what could've been a really cool robo-Hydreigon reskin turned out to be a fucking joke of a Pokemon.

The list — like any list — is going to change plenty over time since it’s so early in the metagame. I really enjoy good discussion on the different opinions on viability of a Pokemon though, so I’m glad people are weighing in and picking it apart.

Personally I think Iron Jugulis is cool since it has access to Knock Off unlike many other things and Taunt+Cane+EPower is pretty hard to swap into. This coupled with good speed is awesome, but it lacks durability and it relies on Hurricane, so lower in B/C ranks is fitting for me. I do believe it is viable, just very limited.

 

[awyp]

The list — like any list — is going to change plenty over time since it’s so early in the metagame. I really enjoy good discussion on the different opinions on viability of a Pokemon though, so I’m glad people are weighing in and picking it apart.

Personally I think Iron Jugulis is cool since it has access to Knock Off unlike many other things and Taunt+Cane+EPower is pretty hard to swap into. This coupled with good speed is awesome, but it lacks durability and it relies on Hurricane, so lower in B/C ranks is fitting for me. I do believe it is viable, just very limited.

As someone who uses Iron Jugulis in UU, it's a fantastic Pokémon definitely upper echelon of the tier and I can see it moving up tier. Not a lot of Pokémon have Knock Off in Gen 9, it also has the ability to Taunt / Tailwind, where you can put out multiple versatile sets like a Utility set or even just a HO set. 346 Max positive speed is pretty damn good especially in conjunction with U-Turn.

 

[Troubadour1]

Personally I think Iron Jugulis is cool since it has access to Knock Off unlike many other things and Taunt+Cane+EPower is pretty hard to swap into. This coupled with good speed is awesome, but it lacks durability and it relies on Hurricane, so lower in B/C ranks is fitting for me. I do believe it is viable, just very limited.

Yeah, I think part of the reason Iron Jugulis feels so weak to some people is that we're so used to every other Paradox mon being pretty bonkers. This set seems like it could have a nice niche though

 

[Ketchup2]

Sandy Shocks
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
This one is the first one that looks genuinely good, Sandy Shocks can just as easily run Magnet or Life Orb to boost its power, serving as a powerful attacker, potential offensive rocker/spiker, and overall cool mon. 48 HP EVs aren’t a lot, but they are a bit of bulk.

Just out of curiosity, did I happen to influence this one? Ran this exact spread on my sun team with specs long before this was posted and holy fuck it slaps. Underrated gem in OU

 

[pika pal]

As someone who uses Iron Jugulis in UU, it's a fantastic Pokémon definitely upper echelon of the tier and I can see it moving up tier. Not a lot of Pokémon have Knock Off in Gen 9, it also has the ability to Taunt / Tailwind, where you can put out multiple versatile sets like a Utility set or even just a HO set. 346 Max positive speed is pretty damn good especially in conjunction with U-Turn.

I think another part of it is that save for Scream Tail, who's rather niche in OU, and Iron Treads to a much lesser extent, every Paradox Pokemon has a very offensively inclined stat spread so that's what we're pre-disposed to look at them doing, whether or not it's their best role. Jugulis does have some decent support moves and (considering its speed tier) pretty reasonable bulk, so I could see a Support/Stallbreaker set having some success rather than pushing it to the much more competitive Attackers the other Paradoxes serve as.

It definitely misses Roost in this respect, as G-Moltres last gen can attest to Dark/Flying being a fairly competent defensive typing in a Ghost, Dark, and Ground heavy Meta.

 

[Bug Maniac Aydon]

How good is the car? It has Filter+a decent typing on defense and Shift Gear offense

Wish it had overall better statistics

It also gets parting shot (or Spin Out + Eject Pack, maybe you could also use Spin Out with that one new necklace?)

 

[KamenOH]

Hydreigon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Nasty Plot
Thoughts? It comes in via Shed Tail and, through Tera, only becomes weak to Psychic type attacks, which it is EV'd to withstand because the only physical psychic attack i know of is psyshock. Of course, screens from Grimm are rather helpful, and can allow it to set up and wreak havoc.
I know its UU currently but its god damn Hydreigon it can work.

 

[Athyestic]

Just out of curiosity, did I happen to influence this one? Ran this exact spread on my sun team with specs long before this was posted and holy fuck it slaps. Underrated gem in OU

Nah, I didn’t find any of these sets anywhere online. I just manually went in and modified EVs in the builder until I got the stats I wanted, then dumped the rest into HP (besides Scream Tail, but that one has a purpose)
Sandy Shocks is very awesome in OU though, I agree!