Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Why do we gotta wait 100 pages to complain about Garg having no counters? I'm ready to complain about that at this very moment...

Seriously though, I think Chi-Yu, Cyclizar, and Ape are QB worthy but aside from that all the semi-controversial stuff like Gholdengo, Dnite, Volc, Chien, etc. could probably use a little more time in the oven following those three being removed and maybe individual suspects after that. But for those three in particular, I don't think a QB at this point would be overly reactionary or conservative. A majority of the council voted for Cyclizar to be banned last slate anyway
 
Sources say Chi-Yu will also be on the radar.
Top Ten plot twists in smogon history, for certain [/sarcasm]
---

So, recapping and commenting on the problem pokemon that now can, at last, be treated:

*:*Chi Yu: Chi Yu: Quickban worthy, no one likes this and we're all waiting for it to be gone.

* :*Annihilape: Annihilape: Could be quickbanned without many objections and, if it isn't, will most likely be the first mon to be suspected this gen.

* :*Cyclizar: Cyclizar/Shed Tail: Ban the mon or ban the move, also a case of "could be QB, but will certainly be suspected at least". Cyclizar is by far the bigger problem here and will no doubt be the one banned/suspected, with banning Shed Tail becoming a point only after Cyclizar is banned in case Orthworm were to raise back to OU and prove to be problematic.

+ :*Dragonite: Dragonite: surprised to see so few people comment on this beast, I definitely think it deserves a suspect and with reasonably high priority. Sure, many top tier mons are decent against EKiller Dragonite (Corvinight, Great Tusk, Dondozo, kinda Skeledirge), but its combination of high firepower, unrivaled +2 priority and ridiculous Multiscale-enhanced bulk (+bulky EV Spreads, it's not like you need Spd all that much) is crippling for pretty much any team. And with Roost, it can use pretty much any mon as set-up fodder.
For weaknesses, it's true that it struggles against the above counters without running niche, unreliable Special attacks like Hurricane (Great Tusk) or Thunder (Corviknight/Dondozo). It also seems to rely on Shed Tail, so it would be understandable to wait until Cyclizar gets banned... but I don't think it needs it as much as it's just it's greatest exploiter (cuz y'know, Substitutes are also affected by Multiscale)

+ :*Chien Pao: Chien Pao: While often compared to Chi-yu, Chien-Pao is not as broken as it has bad bulk and a terrible defensive typing that makes it harder to come in and lacks the firepower in both stats and BP that make Chi-Yu broken (who also has decent Special Bulk and defensive typing). Still, it's firepower when Banded, Tera-Ice/Dark or both is still extremely powerful at a higher speed tier, and said Speed Tier also lets it be a better Set-up sweeper with SD than NP Chi-Yu was.
Definitely suspect-worthy.

+ :*Gholdengo: Gholdengo: an odd entry for this section, Gholdengo is not inherently broken. He just warps the meta around it with a very broken and unheard of Ability. Defog, Thunder Wave and to a lesser extent, Parting Shot are just some of the moves that he just casually CANCELS all-together. Now, if this trait were to be on some random, low BST mono-Rock type mon, there would be no problem, but he is also a perfectly servicable mon with: a good typing both offensively and defensively in Steel/Ghost, access to a 120*STAB BP exclusive move, support moves like Thunder Wave or Trick, Set-up in Nasty Plot, recovery in... well, Recovery, and a stat-line that is screaming old-school Scarfer (with, again, Trick). And that's before we even talk Tera options, like the Tera-Elec + Air Balloon that was popular a while back. It's "broken" aspects are very specific, but the fact that he has ALL of these traits at the same time is what really pushes it too far.
Definitely Suspect worthy.

- :*Espathra: Espathra: too predictable (50% read on Fairy or Fighting is the only "surprise" it may have, and Fighting is usually the scary one), too time consuming to set her up and too reliant on Shed Tail to stay on the field, only to still get shredded by priority and have bad bulk before setting up, becoming only decent if HB EV spread and +2.... By no means a bad pokemon, but she starts to feel too much like a one-trick-pony that isn't all that spectacular, and I figure she'd be even less so without Cyclizar. Still could understand running a suspect on her if need is felt, but her usage fell out of favor for a reason (to the point of making her stay in UUBL for the month) and don't think it's a priority or that she should be banned at all.

- :*Garganacl: Garganacl: surprised to see people talk about suspecting this, and even finch mention it may be in the radar... although I soft-agree. It has very good traits with high bulk, natural immunity to all status and a crazy move in Salt Cure that allows it to be threatening while being passive and set SR or Iron Defense to become very hard to kick out. But the problem is how it can Tera out of its only weakness in his Rock type and switch to Water, Grass, Fairy, Steel, Ghost... It is in an awkward position where almost all the good defensive typing share a weakness with Rock (Grass for Water, Steel for Fairy, Ground for Steel and Elec...), but that's a very small issue compared to how well it does its job. Still, needing to go Tera to fully work brings more problems than benefits on defensive pokemons IMO, and while I agree it's a good mon, I don't think it needs to be suspected, let alone banned.

- :*Roaring Moon: Roaring Moon: another mon I'm surprised no one mentioned, this mon's problems are all solved by Tera. In a meta with Tera, this thing can run a very wide variety of viable tera types, use them to fix it's middling defensive typing, get a free turn to set-up DD and then sweep entire teams. Tera-Elec is excellent with Tera Blast to reverse most of its would-be checks and counters (Corvinight, Dondozo, any random Tera-Water mon), where he also has access to moves like Earthquake, Acrobatics, STAB Jaw Lock and Iron Head to pick and choose its counters. It can also just be an offensive pivot with U-Turn, or a defensive one with high Special Bulk and Roost on top of its offensive capabilities. But I think Tera DD sets are what may push it to the point of a Suspect and I encourage people to test different Tera types on it to see for themselves. Admittedly, not a priority right now, but definitely can see it getting suspecting in the relatively near future.



Maybe Iron Valiant or Dragapult can be added to the list as more stuff gets kicked? Don't really think they're problematic right now, but could be.
 
Actually so fucking wild I went to bed 10 minutes before Finch dropped the results...and the resulting meltdown, literally what the heck guys? Games with multiple stray crits are less salty than this.

That aside, I do think it's actually really interesting how the result went down: largest suspect test in history, enough qualified with 80 GXE voters picking to keep the tier intact as well is a very interesting read of the (qualified) playerbase. I've said multiple times whatever happens with this result sets a wild precedent going forward and I'm curious if the next time tera gets suspected (April?) will break the voter count again. Anyway, as someone who gave up on getting reqs but was firmly no action, thank y'all but I do also think team preview would've been an interesting shift in dynamic.

Anyway, can't wait for the bans and suspects coming in, let's keep moving forward and please be nicer to your fellow community regardless of where y'all stand <3
 
Man this was a fun morning read, like sorting reddit by controversial. Anyway, I'm slightly surprised by the result. I expected that Action would win by virtue of Ban and Restriction being in that same camp. Also interesting is how easily Team Preview would've won otherwise.

As I expect there will be future suspects, would those have the same choices or is there the option for different ones? Because both STAB and Team Captain options hardly garnered any support, and there's been extensive discussion on how they could potentially make the meta off worse.
 
So over 200 voters supported action on Tera and found out that their votes didn’t count because their voices were drowned out by a vocal minority, and now competitive is dead until the Council decides to retest it. Perhaps it’s time to make our voices known through more effective means. I suggest that anyone who voted for tiering action should boycott OU until a retest happens. The meta isn’t worth playing in its current state anyway, so you won’t lose anything of value by not playing it.

bro pulling some jan 6 bullshit here
 
Pov you make a valid argument about tera and some guy comes out of his hole to say this
 

Attachments

  • 60E3D260-B773-4E8D-8918-93CC662960F3.jpeg
    60E3D260-B773-4E8D-8918-93CC662960F3.jpeg
    462.4 KB · Views: 184
Wait... suspect is over?
I went on holiday thinking I had 3 more days to meet reqs but came back to this? Though I'm not too dissatisfied with the results tbh.

I was initially pro-ban, hoping that using TR of all things to meet reqs will only serve as more proof it's broken, but my time laddering with TR was some of the most fun I've had this gen, and TR as a playstyle is single-handedly enabled by Tera allowing the best abusers to avoid the common Dark and Ground weaknesses. (Thank you Chi-Yu so much for one shotting most Tera-less TR cores from full) I would still want a tera-less meta some point in the future, but keeping Tera currently might just be a necessary evil at the moment to enable some team structures to function given our limited pool of mons.

Some things are clearly broken now that Tera is still around, but I wonder if Tera will feel more manageable after they get the boot.
The bigger question for me is that if Tera gets suspected again and restricted in the future, how will mons that are primarily banned because of Tera be resuspected into the tier, since it might be a really time consuming process to test things down one at a time.

I'm not gonna elaborate on my reasons much, but the mons that to me feel most problematicat the moment are: Chiyu, Annihilape, Cyclizar, Chien Pao, Garganacl in that order. The rest can wait, because the removal of any of these 5 will certainly cause a significant change in how the game is played for everything else that might feel unbearable currently.
 
Last edited:
So over 200 voters supported action on Tera and found out that their votes didn’t count because their voices were drowned out by a vocal minority, and now competitive is dead until the Council decides to retest it. Perhaps it’s time to make our voices known through more effective means. I suggest that anyone who voted for tiering action should boycott OU until a retest happens. The meta isn’t worth playing in its current state anyway, so you won’t lose anything of value by not playing it.
You mad bro?
 
Wait... suspect is over?
I went on holiday thinking I had 3 more days to meet reqs but came back to this? Though I'm not too dissatisfied with the results tbh.

I was initially pro-ban, hoping that using TR of all things to meet reqs will only serve as more proof it's broken, but my time laddering with TR was some of the most fun I've had this gen, and TR as a playstyle is single-handedly enabled by Tera allowing the best abusers to avoid the common Dark and Ground weaknesses. (Thank you Chi-Yu so much for one shotting most Tera-less TR cores from full) I would still want a tera-less meta some point in the future, but keeping Tera currently might just be a necessary evil at the moment to enable some team structures to function given our limited pool of mons.

Some things are clearly broken now that Tera is still around, but I wonder if Tera will feel more manageable after they get the boot.
The bigger question for me is that if Tera gets suspected again and restricted in the future, how will mons that are primarily banned because of Tera be resuspected into the tier, since it might be a really time consuming process to test things down one at a time.

I'm not gonna elaborate on my reasons much, but the mons that to me feel most problematicat the moment are: Chiyu, Annihilape, Cyclizar, Chien Pao, Garganacl in that order. The rest can wait, because the removal of any of these 5 will certainly cause a significant change in how the game is played for everything else that might feel unbearable currently.
i agree that terra is broken, really broken. however you gotta respect the vote even if it was really close, besides it will most likely be tested again in the future.
 
The date the suspect ended has been firm since it began, so I’m not too sure what the cause for confusion was here.
I told myself when it began that it ends on the first Sunday of the new year, conveniently forgetting that 1 Jan was a Sunday.
I also counted "3 weeks" wrongly (did it from Sunday to Sunday instead of Thursday to Thursday)
 
Last edited:
So, I took some time out of my days to compile the top option of each vote. It's probably not the way the actual voting was counted but I had some time to waste. I counted a "No Action" vote for ... well No action, while an Action vote would count toward the first option listed, hope I didn't make any mistake lol.


Out of the 351 eligible voters, 346 voted (348 if we counted the 2 that were made after the results).

Coming in dead last : Stab-only Tera got 2 votes, or 0.58% of the votes.

After that is the One Tera by team (the lead), or "Captain option", with 20 votes or 5.78%.

Now, the last 3 categories are a bit closer : Ban amassed 76 votes, or 21.97% of voters.

Reveal at team preview got 107 votes, or 30.92%.

And finally, the "winner" of the poll, No Action got, as said earlier, 40.75% of the votes : or exactly 141 votes.

Captain and Stab-only didn't even made an impact on the vote, tho the formatting of the votes might have influenced it (as some people wanting team preview to be used might have voted No Action to be sure it wasn't banned), but if we only take the first vote into account, No Action is still the winner.
If you want to take a look at it (or don't believe me), I made a google doc with all the top votes, ordered : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TtC69Fpf7io5TMRnsE-9JlyIQSg4kA0y6znK1OtMzNk/edit?usp=sharing

Friendly reminder that if you do not like the results, train and prepare yourself so you can have the req for next test, probably when Home drops.
 
So, I took some time out of my days to compile the top option of each vote. It's probably not the way the actual voting was counted but I had some time to waste. I counted a "No Action" vote for ... well No action, while an Action vote would count toward the first option listed, hope I didn't make any mistake lol.


Out of the 351 eligible voters, 346 voted (348 if we counted the 2 that were made after the results).

Coming in dead last : Stab-only Tera got 2 votes, or 0.58% of the votes.

After that is the One Tera by team (the lead), or "Captain option", with 20 votes or 5.78%.

Now, the last 3 categories are a bit closer : Ban amassed 76 votes, or 21.97% of voters.

Reveal at team preview got 107 votes, or 30.92%.

And finally, the "winner" of the poll, No Action got, as said earlier, 40.75% of the votes : or exactly 141 votes.

Captain and Stab-only didn't even made an impact on the vote, tho the formatting of the votes might have influenced it (as some people wanting team preview to be used might have voted No Action to be sure it wasn't banned), but if we only take the first vote into account, No Action is still the winner.
If you want to take a look at it (or don't believe me), I made a google doc with all the top votes, ordered : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TtC69Fpf7io5TMRnsE-9JlyIQSg4kA0y6znK1OtMzNk/edit?usp=sharing

Friendly reminder that if you do not like the results, train and prepare yourself so you can have the req for next test, probably when Home drops.
Thank you for compiling. Yes, even if there WAS some bias, the stats shows that, not factoring additive votes, people wanted No Action than really anything else.
 
So, I took some time out of my days to compile the top option of each vote. It's probably not the way the actual voting was counted but I had some time to waste. I counted a "No Action" vote for ... well No action, while an Action vote would count toward the first option listed, hope I didn't make any mistake lol.


Out of the 351 eligible voters, 346 voted (348 if we counted the 2 that were made after the results).

Coming in dead last : Stab-only Tera got 2 votes, or 0.58% of the votes.

After that is the One Tera by team (the lead), or "Captain option", with 20 votes or 5.78%.

Now, the last 3 categories are a bit closer : Ban amassed 76 votes, or 21.97% of voters.

Reveal at team preview got 107 votes, or 30.92%.

And finally, the "winner" of the poll, No Action got, as said earlier, 40.75% of the votes : or exactly 141 votes.

Captain and Stab-only didn't even made an impact on the vote, tho the formatting of the votes might have influenced it (as some people wanting team preview to be used might have voted No Action to be sure it wasn't banned), but if we only take the first vote into account, No Action is still the winner.
If you want to take a look at it (or don't believe me), I made a google doc with all the top votes, ordered : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TtC69Fpf7io5TMRnsE-9JlyIQSg4kA0y6znK1OtMzNk/edit?usp=sharing

Friendly reminder that if you do not like the results, train and prepare yourself so you can have the req for next test, probably when Home drops.
Here's the 'cool version that you can show your friends to make them mad for nothing':
1672931393628.png
 
You know, I've seen A LOT of Tankchomp going around and punished each of them. What's the allure of them without reliable recovery? Just racking up recoil damage through helm + skin?

Been very curious about it, and was thinking about maybe trying one with a set like this:

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Rough Skin / Tera Steel
Impish/Bold Nature
244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Speed
Dragon Claw/Draco Meteor
Earthquake/Earth Power
Stealth Rock
Swords Dance/Tera Blast/Fire Blast?

I could use Spikes as the last move as well, but I'm not a fan of setting up multiple hazards. Stealth Rocks is all I really need and then I go to town. The idea behind this is either a Tankchomp with SD to put on pressure, or Tankchomp with Draco/EP/Fire Blast to catch normal checks off guard.
 
You know, I've seen A LOT of Tankchomp going around and punished each of them. What's the allure of them without reliable recovery? Just racking up recoil damage through helm + skin?

Been very curious about it, and was thinking about maybe trying one with a set like this:

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Rough Skin / Tera Steel
Impish/Bold Nature
244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Speed
Dragon Claw/Draco Meteor
Earthquake/Earth Power
Stealth Rock
Swords Dance/Tera Blast/Fire Blast?

I could use Spikes as the last move as well, but I'm not a fan of setting up multiple hazards. Stealth Rocks is all I really need and then I go to town. The idea behind this is either a Tankchomp with SD to put on pressure, or Tankchomp with Draco/EP/Fire Blast to catch normal checks off guard.

On TankChomp, the idea is to have the enemy kill themselves as they try to kill you. You don't go for sd, draco or dragon claw on this because you're gonna invest in speed and bulk. It's actually one of the best ways to brutally punish Cinderace spamming u turn given that Chomp resists pyro ball and can also make life for Annihilape really miserable. It's also not that safe to setup on Chomp because tank sets run dragon tail. Usually, the set goes

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera: Steel / Water / Ghost
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

It's basically a hazard machine but the nature and evs are customizable and you can move speed evs to defense based on what you want to outrun. However, I'm not too sure how hazard stacking teams hold up because of Cinderace's threat of court change. Soccer bunny turns it to a game where both teams would suffer from hazards. I don't know if that is true as I'm not gonna play the game until Nemo gets banned
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top