This really mirrors the "just allow Gigantamax only" discussion from last generation. I'm not involved in this in any way, but the council try to generally look at pokemon holistically, and the same is largely true for mechanics. Preserving a heavily altered version of the generation's core mechanic just for the sake of doing so isn't worth it unless they have reason to believe the game would strongly benefit from it. The complications of designing the perfect nerf package for Terastal would overshadow everything else and make other tiering decisions incredibly complicated to figure out; we try one Tera Clause and it's still broken, so we add another one in, it's still not enough, and so on, and the whole time it's difficult to evaluate pokemon bans because a lot of them are dependent on the specific way we're currently allowing Tera to be used. If it's broken and you just ban it, you can move on and focus on the other unhealthy elements that exist. I'm not saying Tera is definitively broken, but you can understand how wrangling over the perfect Tera nerf package is not a good use of the next however many months it takes.
-
The moderators of this forum are Finchinator, Ruft, ausma, 658Greninja, kd458, FayaWizard, Srn, TPP, and viivian.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
Next on the Radar (Hopefully)
Iron Bundle is an incredible threat as of now, as Flutter Mane is just banned so a major competition that was better than Iron Bundle was lost. Its coverage is just perfect, between Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump and Ice Beam you hit to the entirety of metagame. This is yet another threat that doesnt need that much of a support and also doesnt need Tera to be threathening.
This thing has next to no real answers, as Taunt Bulk Up is just enough to shut down slower things such as Toxapex. Its hard to come up with defensive solutions against this thing, but I must say I had somewhat of a decent success with Rocky Helmet Amoonguss as I just effortlesly clicked Giga Drain and Wo Chien is bulky enough to handle unboosted / +1 dolphin just with Giga. The minus attack from ability is very handy to tackle this issue.
That being said, people are very much so used to the comfort. All I ever saw was Palafin using Terra Water to further boost Jet Punch so you get rid of the offensive threats, but as Quziel put above you can go into a type such as Steel where Grass-types cannot touch you and that leads to an entirely diffent winpath.
I am never comfortable around this thing and came as a shock that nobody in OU council wanted it gone. Its just insanely fast and hits hard, even harder thanks to its ability. Has prio, sufficient coverage and great Terra applications and just as Iron Bundle it also lost somewhat of a competition so Im curious to see how metagame will resolve.
This thing is a crazy cleaner and just as Chien Pao I expect this thing to take off with some competition removed. Its offensive stats allow it to run both special and physical, this allows up some variation in sets this thing can run and has a great typing too.
and Shed Tail
A lot of mixed opinions about this one but I feel like just quoting myself here.
This speaks for itself. At this point it is known that Cyclizar is good at abusing slower and defensive Pokemon excellently. But it is also known as not being able to take many hits due to its subpar bulk. Do I think its unhealthy tho? For me the answer is yes. The reason for that is the further we progress into the metagame, the more we will get rid of stronger Pokemo which I believe will lead us towards balanced / stall (Its not dead lol) which will result in Cyclizar finding more targets to abuse. We will reach to a point that this mechanic is intolerable and will likely get yeeted.
Iron Bundle is an incredible threat as of now, as Flutter Mane is just banned so a major competition that was better than Iron Bundle was lost. Its coverage is just perfect, between Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump and Ice Beam you hit to the entirety of metagame. This is yet another threat that doesnt need that much of a support and also doesnt need Tera to be threathening.
This thing has next to no real answers, as Taunt Bulk Up is just enough to shut down slower things such as Toxapex. Its hard to come up with defensive solutions against this thing, but I must say I had somewhat of a decent success with Rocky Helmet Amoonguss as I just effortlesly clicked Giga Drain and Wo Chien is bulky enough to handle unboosted / +1 dolphin just with Giga. The minus attack from ability is very handy to tackle this issue.
That being said, people are very much so used to the comfort. All I ever saw was Palafin using Terra Water to further boost Jet Punch so you get rid of the offensive threats, but as Quziel put above you can go into a type such as Steel where Grass-types cannot touch you and that leads to an entirely diffent winpath.
I am never comfortable around this thing and came as a shock that nobody in OU council wanted it gone. Its just insanely fast and hits hard, even harder thanks to its ability. Has prio, sufficient coverage and great Terra applications and just as Iron Bundle it also lost somewhat of a competition so Im curious to see how metagame will resolve.
This thing is a crazy cleaner and just as Chien Pao I expect this thing to take off with some competition removed. Its offensive stats allow it to run both special and physical, this allows up some variation in sets this thing can run and has a great typing too.
and Shed TailA lot of mixed opinions about this one but I feel like just quoting myself here.
This speaks for itself. At this point it is known that Cyclizar is good at abusing slower and defensive Pokemon excellently. But it is also known as not being able to take many hits due to its subpar bulk. Do I think its unhealthy tho? For me the answer is yes. The reason for that is the further we progress into the metagame, the more we will get rid of stronger Pokemo which I believe will lead us towards balanced / stall (Its not dead lol) which will result in Cyclizar finding more targets to abuse. We will reach to a point that this mechanic is intolerable and will likely get yeeted.
I wanted to add on Houndstone ban by comparing it rather with Volcarona instead of Vish
Volc last gen was a wincon that was achieved once the opposing Tran was removed (if there was one) and once a QD is successfully performed. From there onwards, there is very little chance for the opposing player to win. This was fine and was considered so too
Houndstone is a similar but more situational wincon. You need to get off the opponents normal (if they have one), set up sand (which isn't hard but require Ttar or Hippo), need to opponent either not to have something that can outspeed and revenge kill Hound like Dragapult if you are running boots or need hazards to be gone if you are running Scarf, need to remove priority attackers (especially those with Sucker Punch, a move that's quite widely distributed among OU viable mons atm), need atleast half of your team dead to be strong enough to do anything and even then, something like normal type tera which hasn't been super niche the last few days can ruin your day
This Mon shouldn't be banned. The situations it's useful in are situations where something like Pult or Meows could do its job better. Yes it takes effort during the game to play around it, but so does every good offensive Mon to varying degrees
In my humble opinion, I don't think this Mon would've ever been banned if we looked beyond the ridiculous BP of LR and understood the context of Hound and the move
Volc last gen was a wincon that was achieved once the opposing Tran was removed (if there was one) and once a QD is successfully performed. From there onwards, there is very little chance for the opposing player to win. This was fine and was considered so too
Houndstone is a similar but more situational wincon. You need to get off the opponents normal (if they have one), set up sand (which isn't hard but require Ttar or Hippo), need to opponent either not to have something that can outspeed and revenge kill Hound like Dragapult if you are running boots or need hazards to be gone if you are running Scarf, need to remove priority attackers (especially those with Sucker Punch, a move that's quite widely distributed among OU viable mons atm), need atleast half of your team dead to be strong enough to do anything and even then, something like normal type tera which hasn't been super niche the last few days can ruin your day
This Mon shouldn't be banned. The situations it's useful in are situations where something like Pult or Meows could do its job better. Yes it takes effort during the game to play around it, but so does every good offensive Mon to varying degrees
In my humble opinion, I don't think this Mon would've ever been banned if we looked beyond the ridiculous BP of LR and understood the context of Hound and the move
Btw, is there any reason to suspect test BU Palafin? I don't see any outcome where it's not unanimously voted to be banned. Just wondering if there might a suspect test for the next waves of ban
Would appreciate a council member's response
Would appreciate a council member's response
Last edited:
I can't blame council for being told that they should focus on banning the mon, but I fear the pushback against banning LR because legion with it was speculative was a bit too strict. Sure, competitive players tend to fall on the "loool bro this mon is gonna be soooo busted" (the mon drops and it's PU), but LR being even more threatening on legion feels more speculation that has good footing on.
I wished the tiering was done in reverse: ban LR, and once legion drops, maybe retest to see if its broken on it. If yes, keep LR banned. If not, reverse the ban and kick the dog out. It would have led into a similar result post-home meta, but let us play with houndstone (which offers a lot off fun stuff, and while maybe not ou, would have been a fun mon for lower tiers).
Oh well, time to rework my wannabe sand team u_u at least I won't have to deal with flutter mane ever again
I wished the tiering was done in reverse: ban LR, and once legion drops, maybe retest to see if its broken on it. If yes, keep LR banned. If not, reverse the ban and kick the dog out. It would have led into a similar result post-home meta, but let us play with houndstone (which offers a lot off fun stuff, and while maybe not ou, would have been a fun mon for lower tiers).
Oh well, time to rework my wannabe sand team u_u at least I won't have to deal with flutter mane ever again
Played on the ladder and:
Booster Energy: Is in my opinion banworthy.
(
)
Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Iron Jugulis are often the mons that receive free boosts (Atk or Speed) with this item when entering the field.
--
I honestly think that without this item they would be more balanced in the meta (especially Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon) and that it would allow them to stay in OU without having to make several suspects.
Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Iron Jugulis are often the mons that receive free boosts (Atk or Speed) with this item when entering the field.
--
I honestly think that without this item they would be more balanced in the meta (especially Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon) and that it would allow them to stay in OU without having to make several suspects.
Last edited:
Sleep clause was a cartridge mechanic until gen 5, not a mod that we conceived.
Won't comment Houndstone but what you are saying about Volcarona isn't true in the slighest. It was not just Heatran what stopped Volcarona but also:
-Rain as playstyle.
-Blissey (unless the terrible Safeguard set).
-Tyranitar.
-Dragonite. After seeing that my SPL Opponent brought Heatran 3 times in a row, I correctly predicted that he wouldn't do that for 4th time. Unfortunately I was met by a Dragonite which made my moth totally useless.
-Physical Dragapult.
-Sdef Chomp with Rock Slide.
-Victini (OHKOs defensive versions).
And many more.
I am not entirely sure banning Houndstone was the right decision, but comparing it to Volcarona is not the way to argue that, Volca had a lot of checks and was way harder to use before late game than Houndstone.
Iron Jugulis seems plenty balanced even with the item. I haven't seen anybody finding it broken, or particularly difficult to handle.
Maybe they're afraid of Legion not actually getting Last Respects when it's officially released. I mean, Chandelure never ended up getting Shadow Tag in the end, so who knows.
That’s exactly what happened and I’m confused as to why everyone is so up in arms about this ban.
The council is basically flat out telling you guys houndstone got banned on a technicality due to former precedents and the second any other Pokémon gets last respects the move is being banned and houndstone is getting unbanned.
I can now imagine the higher councel looking at us like some fucking SCP´s on a manchild containment zone lmao
Now, i havent really got time to play all that much, but how do you guys feel about Specs Goldieboy
Gholdengo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
I mean, you cant really outspeed anything anymore really but bah gawd look at that instant ramen noodle damage ma man, i know it drops special attack, but this is literally a recharge cannon, also you can tera steel to gain mooore damage, as i said i havent really tried this but seems fun
Alright Palafin is pretty op right now so I'm gonna suggest some ways of countering it.
Meowscarada can use banded flower trick to guarantee a ko but it fears getting hit by drain punch and boosted jet punch. Not really reliable.
Toxic spikes can be good to make sure it gets chipped, ending leftovers recovery and hurting him while it tries to setup, giving enough room to try to ko, this however, has the problem of many poison types being in the tier right now. Toxic is unreliable since many palafins are running taunt.
Keeping a tera to brute force through is an option, but this limits teambuilding and gives you a disavantage when playing, since you can't waste your tera on another mon.
Defensive gyarados with thunderbolt is a set, but being real it kinda feels weird using it and it isn't rly good as a mon like this.
Clodsire either runs water absorb or unaware so he isn't really a lot option, specially with many running ice punch now.
Defensive dragonite can deal with it, but suffers from ice punch variations.
Pokemon with anti priority abilities can try to hope for a taunt/no ice punch variation and tera ghost in order to beat it, but once again, uses the tera.
Grass knot azumarill can counter it pretty well but gets chipped down hard in the process and if it already hard boosted it might beat azumarill.
Iron hands if power booster can brute force through it pretty well.
Hazards can help a lot against it.
Strong first impressions can take on a chipped down palafin.
Tauros water can try to wild charge on him but it's kinda bad.
Scarf rotom wash with will-o-wisp
Noivern can deal with it if it hasn't boosted too much.
Yeah there isn't anything here that can't be countered or isn't bad at the same time lmao
Meowscarada can use banded flower trick to guarantee a ko but it fears getting hit by drain punch and boosted jet punch. Not really reliable.
Toxic spikes can be good to make sure it gets chipped, ending leftovers recovery and hurting him while it tries to setup, giving enough room to try to ko, this however, has the problem of many poison types being in the tier right now. Toxic is unreliable since many palafins are running taunt.
Keeping a tera to brute force through is an option, but this limits teambuilding and gives you a disavantage when playing, since you can't waste your tera on another mon.
Defensive gyarados with thunderbolt is a set, but being real it kinda feels weird using it and it isn't rly good as a mon like this.
Clodsire either runs water absorb or unaware so he isn't really a lot option, specially with many running ice punch now.
Defensive dragonite can deal with it, but suffers from ice punch variations.
Pokemon with anti priority abilities can try to hope for a taunt/no ice punch variation and tera ghost in order to beat it, but once again, uses the tera.
Grass knot azumarill can counter it pretty well but gets chipped down hard in the process and if it already hard boosted it might beat azumarill.
Iron hands if power booster can brute force through it pretty well.
Hazards can help a lot against it.
Strong first impressions can take on a chipped down palafin.
Tauros water can try to wild charge on him but it's kinda bad.
Scarf rotom wash with will-o-wisp
Noivern can deal with it if it hasn't boosted too much.
Yeah there isn't anything here that can't be countered or isn't bad at the same time lmao
Thank you for the reply. I was there during the Dynamax discussion, and I do mostly agree with the reasoning. But I believe two things are slightly different this time.
1. Most people seem to agree that Terastallize is not as overpowered as Dynamax.
2. I think there is actual potential for the game to strongly benefit from Terastallize. It allows for more diversity, more creative strategies, and adds another layer of depth to the team building process that we have never seen before. And there's also the fun factor.
I do acknowledge that it may end up being unhealthy, and it may cause many months of frustration. I just personally think the potential reward of a much more enjoyable metagame is worth the risk.
Currently you can just wall it forever with Ghost Tera Clod/Quag, until they realize this and drop drain punch for Terra or Acrobats or something.
I don't even know if you win the PP war tbh cuz you're clearly not killing it. Maybe we'll find an answer. My guess is there isn't one.
Max HP/ Max Def Iron Hands also does a decent job handling it, but I ultimately think it’s gonna prove to be too much for the tier and probably get QB’d in the next wave. It also does a decent job checking some things like Chien pao or Baxcalibur, I’ve been having fun with it.
I want the move banned. I could not get agreement on the move ban from admin. because it is only used on a single Pokemon and you cannot differentiate it with the logic you just posted, yes. I understand their loigic, but wish the circumstances could bend it. The day Basculegion is released, it will likely lead to the move being banned rather than the Pokemon (which will also unban Houndstone). This is all theoretical now though
My thoughts on terrastalisation
After playing the last couple of days, I don't believe terrastalising to be as broken as initilly thought. I have seen alot of discussion around the power of terestalisaiton type on offensive mons. The early meta always tends to be more offensive and once the meta stabilises i believe we may see it more of a defensive utility. The increase from 1.5x STAB boost to 2x STAB boost is a 33% power increase not a 50% power increase as i initially thought. After running some balance teams with varying success i have found changing the tera type to provide a key resistance or remove a weakness (50% power reduction) to particular threat on the enemy team. it would defiantly be worth waiting for removal of the Unbalanced mons before forming a strong opinion. It would be a shame to see core mechanic banned and the decision should not be rushed.I personally don't believe it is anyway comparable to the uncompetitiveness of dynamax.
After playing the last couple of days, I don't believe terrastalising to be as broken as initilly thought. I have seen alot of discussion around the power of terestalisaiton type on offensive mons. The early meta always tends to be more offensive and once the meta stabilises i believe we may see it more of a defensive utility. The increase from 1.5x STAB boost to 2x STAB boost is a 33% power increase not a 50% power increase as i initially thought. After running some balance teams with varying success i have found changing the tera type to provide a key resistance or remove a weakness (50% power reduction) to particular threat on the enemy team. it would defiantly be worth waiting for removal of the Unbalanced mons before forming a strong opinion. It would be a shame to see core mechanic banned and the decision should not be rushed.I personally don't believe it is anyway comparable to the uncompetitiveness of dynamax.
I think we are seeing the defensive utility a fair bit. I use it defensively on my Slowking to handle Ghost types, I see other plays use it defensively on stuff like Iron Bundles to get rid of their weaknesses while getting Tera Blast as a strong coverage option (a cool combo I saw was Electric Terrain + Tera Blast Electric, giving it bolt-beam coverage), and I see other players use Tera Flying to get rid of their EQ weakness, mainly on stuff like Iron Treads and Thorns.
It is hard for me to say whether Tera itself is broken or the paradox mons / legendaries, since most of them are busted as hell on their own. I think Great Tusks is extremely busted since it can just 6-0 teams after getting a Rapid Spin speed boost. Chien-Pao is also pretty busted, as is Iron Bundles due to their speed being way too high + Chien-Pao getting really strong priority. Booster Energy on all these mons makes them goober threats too, since stuff like Iron Tusk gets a free CB boost while being able to get a +1 boost via Rapid Spin and just sweeping the opponent, while stuff like Iron Bundles becomes impossible to revenge kill.
Don't think banning Booster Energy would even solve the problem since people would run Sun or E-Terrain, which would automatically get counter-teamed by the opponents Paradox mons. Its kinda like Gen 5, where people would run stuff like Swift Swim Kingdra on Sand, or Sand Rush Excadrill on Rain to counter team the opponent w/ an Uber level threat, except the mons here are arguably even more potent.
Doing that would remove the point of using tera on some pokemon. Let's say you have a tera flying steel- fire- or rock-type pokemon with the intention of using tera to avoid a flying type move. If tera types were shown before battle that would make that strategy null and void. If you use tera to double down on a STAB, this solution would do nothing to fix tera. The only time I see this solution being balanced is when you use tera to gain a third STAB, this would tell your opponent what that extra STAB would be and they would be able to plan accordingly, without making it any less possible for you to use that strategy.
This would be a bandaid, and a bad one at that. Removing tera from competitive is, in my opinion, the right move but I see where you're coming from.
Does that not imply it would solve the problem?? Field effects can be abused by both sides, which means they’re far less of an issue! Plus, Sun aside, Pincurchin is a terrible mon and shouldn’t be run on any serious OU teams, so I think dropping Booster is a HUGE help for a tier struggling to handle these 570 BST nightmares.
On the flip side of that, just because you know the Tera types of the other team doesn’t mean you know what mon or what time they’ll get Tera’d. there’s still plenty of room for creativity without the perceived randomness that people are complaining about
- Status