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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
fixed
Corv is not a check at all. It can't threaten Espathra and just gets used as set up fodder. Kingambit loses to tera fighting, Hatterene gets into a calm mind battle and will lose without nuzzle, Dragonite cannot timely pressure Espathra as unboosyed attacks don't even 3HKO the ostrich. Scarf Gholdengo does work, and Skeledirge and Ting-Lu are genuine answers, but past that...In a Cyclizar-less meta Espathra has far less opportunities than it did before, if it wants to replicate its former glory it would have to be paired with the high risk/high reward Orthworm who can only set up one Shed Tail per game (twice if you’re lucky or using Healing Wish). Alot of things can 2HKO Espathra in this meta and not worry about an unboosted Stored Power. When that isn’t plausible, Espathra has notable checks that are splashable AND not a full-on requirement on teams. What checks? These for example.
As for set up opportunities, aside from the obvious examples of defensive pokemon who are forced to recover, examples like -2 dragapult after a draco meteor, choice locked iron valiant into fighting coverage and other similar examples.
Espathra won't be the most consistent pokemon, but it's also an obnoxious match up fish which can snatch wins fairly effortlessly against teams who lack sufficient counterplay. While it's not something on most people's radar right now, it isn't something to be ignored as it's potential is very volatile.
Isn't that every set up mon? Personally I never feel pressured when I see an Espathra in the other team, while stuff like Volc or Dragonite makes me want to play super safe.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Thank you very much for including that last paragraph, because it completely encapsulates how I feel about Espathra and you worded it better than I did. I don’t think that anyone could claim that Espathra is as potent or “broken” (I really feel like that word is used too generally and often to hold much meaning anymore though) as something like Chien-Pao. However, I feel like Espathra introduces an unhealthy matchup fishing aspect into the tier and I don’t think its inclusion offers much benefit to the health of the tier at all, although I understand that some people believe that everything except for the most demonstrably detrimental mons should remain in a tier, so they are more willing to disregard the potential values a mon contributes. I doubt that too much action will be considered against Espathra because it reminds me a lot of Volcarona in previous gens (Volc has never truly been considered overpowered and has had counterplay, but its threat to 6-0 matchups and sometimes just sweep off of hax has never sat right with me) and Volc was never suspected. Also, Volc is still probably just the “new Volc” anyway because all of what I said is still true and applies to Volc, and Tera makes Volc even scarier, but Volc at least provides more utility and value to the tier than Espathra that either just sweeps or doesn’t contribute much. I still really don’t like Volc though so I guess that Espathra just joins Volc and Sub Serperior to form an unholy triumvirate of my three least favorite and “cheap” feeling mons ever.
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This may sound weird but Espartha reminds me of baton pass. If you get unlucky or predict badly it can get ugly really quickly.
Also what is the first impression of Greninja? Does it provide something useful in OU?
Edit: wtf I tried Greninja and Specs or LO IS really good. I am shocked feels like using offensive Starmie in the past gens.
Also what is the first impression of Greninja? Does it provide something useful in OU?
Edit: wtf I tried Greninja and Specs or LO IS really good. I am shocked feels like using offensive Starmie in the past gens.
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With a damage boosting item looks like the best protean for offense teams, what differentiates him from Meow or Cinderace is that the current meta struggles a bit with strong special attackers with good coverage as good as Gren's, said movepool makes Grean easy to fit on your teams because you can just give the coverage your team needs.
Scarf Gren looks like is on his worst moment, the damage without LO or specs simpply isn't enough in this meta.
It's 5 am here and I am at the airport trying not to sleep. Good moment to put some thoughts about some Mons of the Tier, especially since not many people will be enraged at my usually controversial opinions
Has some defensive and offensive counterplay, it for sure isn't Annihilape. The counterplay is not useless without him in the Meta, Paldean Water Tauros checks Kingambit, Floatzel, Cinderace, Great Tusk (outside of BU and Band) , Normal Dragonite, some Baxcalibur and Scizor among others. Pdef Quaquaval is the same, but with worse bulk, trading it for Roost, U-Turn and some sweeping potential. Fire Tauros can spread burns and check Meowscarada and Breloom. Iron Hands can be a win condition for some teams, same for BD Azumarill. Tera Pex, Alomomola (Fairy + Play Rough) and Dondozo are good Mons. Pdef Volcarona burns others Mons, not only Chien Pao. Lokix is bad vs balance and Stall, but very good vs offense regardless of Chien Pao. Slither Wings is another First Impression user. Weather sweepers exist to RK and Torkoal itself is quite bulky. Tinkaton puts Rocks vs Hatterene, paras Gholdengo and sometimes sweeps. Chien Pao shouldn't be Quick Banned, but suspected instead.
Now, if it is suspected, I will still vote Ban, it's just not a super obvious one like Annihilape, we should give him a chance. I would vote Ban because Band + Tera Dark is not the only set to account for and it has enough moves, items and Tera options to overwhelm every single check, combined with enormous speed and power. Despite not considering it Quickban worthy, I still consider it broken enough.
Greninja: Didn't have the opportunity to play with it in the Meta (got released yesterday and I am traveling) but Specs set alone is A+ Rank for me and very close to being broken with that infinite movepool, high speed and power (+ option to run hazards). Of course, not to the degree of Chien Pao and this veredict might change when I actually play with it, but from Theorymon perspective, it's almost as strong as in SM ( and I considered Protean Greninja broken in SM, unlike Ass variant) despite the nerf. This is mainly due to recovery nerf and some former checks (Magearna, Tan growth, Toxapex, Kyurem, Blissey, Primarina) either not being present or being worse than in SM.
Garganacl: Yes, new sets are being discovered with this guy, but so is new counterplay. Very annoying Mon, but not problematic for the Tier.
Espathra: SS Poltergeist but actually good. It will sweep some teams and will do 0 to others. Match-up fishing is not a reason for me to Ban a Mon and this one requires a lot of support + commit to Tera to work. Some teams aurolose to it, but others autowin without even preparing specifically for it. Not a problem for the Tier.
Volcarona: Very good Mon, but far from broken. We already had this Mon in DLC1 Meta of SS, with Boots and no Heatran. It was very far from broken there. With Tera, is better than DLC1 SS one, but there are still sure counters and very solid checks. Every physical Tera Fire Mon (there are a lot viable ones, explore them) . Toxic Clodsire. Skeledirge except the very niche Tera Water. Pex vs no Psychic. TW Pult. Flash Fire Mons. Facade Mons (seen some Dragonites with that).
Dragapult: Tera Water and Electric on Specs are good.
Iron Treads: I still consider this guy a good alternative to Tusk. Tusk is better as offensive Mon, but Treads is better as Rocks + Spin Mon with some good role compressions and better defensive typing.
Kingambit: I predict this guy to be a B rank at most in like 6 months when people realize how easy it is to prepare for it due to that speed. Right now it's still good and it will always be, but it will end up very far from a dominating force.
Corviknight: Pdef=big trash. Sdef=Good, Defog or BU. Won't elaborate.
Iron Valiant: Just like Greninja, might become banworthy in the future due to Specs alone, but has many amazing sets. One of the hardest to check Mons in the Tier. Not broken yet.
Ting Lu: Standard set= Bad. Weird innovations (Band, Restalk, trap + Taunt, etc.) = great potential.
Garchomp: Unironically great when offensive, be it SD or Mixed Tera Fire. Extremely hard to avoid losing a Mon to it, unless using Stall.
Glimmora: Just like the 2 guys above, offensive sets are way better on this.
Hippowdon: Along with Tusk (who is a little worse at the task due to lack of recovery), it's the one guy that prevents Band Pawmot from being one prediction away from destroying everything slower than it.
Baxcalibur= Band>>>>>DD.
Iron Moth and Slither Wing: Lots of unexplored Tera and moveset potential here, this will increase usage in the future.
Eeveelutions: Will keep them to myself for now, but I see niches for every single of them (including Glaceon of course). This didn't happen even in early SS.
Has some defensive and offensive counterplay, it for sure isn't Annihilape. The counterplay is not useless without him in the Meta, Paldean Water Tauros checks Kingambit, Floatzel, Cinderace, Great Tusk (outside of BU and Band) , Normal Dragonite, some Baxcalibur and Scizor among others. Pdef Quaquaval is the same, but with worse bulk, trading it for Roost, U-Turn and some sweeping potential. Fire Tauros can spread burns and check Meowscarada and Breloom. Iron Hands can be a win condition for some teams, same for BD Azumarill. Tera Pex, Alomomola (Fairy + Play Rough) and Dondozo are good Mons. Pdef Volcarona burns others Mons, not only Chien Pao. Lokix is bad vs balance and Stall, but very good vs offense regardless of Chien Pao. Slither Wings is another First Impression user. Weather sweepers exist to RK and Torkoal itself is quite bulky. Tinkaton puts Rocks vs Hatterene, paras Gholdengo and sometimes sweeps. Chien Pao shouldn't be Quick Banned, but suspected instead. Now, if it is suspected, I will still vote Ban, it's just not a super obvious one like Annihilape, we should give him a chance. I would vote Ban because Band + Tera Dark is not the only set to account for and it has enough moves, items and Tera options to overwhelm every single check, combined with enormous speed and power. Despite not considering it Quickban worthy, I still consider it broken enough.
Greninja: Didn't have the opportunity to play with it in the Meta (got released yesterday and I am traveling) but Specs set alone is A+ Rank for me and very close to being broken with that infinite movepool, high speed and power (+ option to run hazards). Of course, not to the degree of Chien Pao and this veredict might change when I actually play with it, but from Theorymon perspective, it's almost as strong as in SM ( and I considered Protean Greninja broken in SM, unlike Ass variant) despite the nerf. This is mainly due to recovery nerf and some former checks (Magearna, Tan growth, Toxapex, Kyurem, Blissey, Primarina) either not being present or being worse than in SM.
Garganacl: Yes, new sets are being discovered with this guy, but so is new counterplay. Very annoying Mon, but not problematic for the Tier.
Espathra: SS Poltergeist but actually good. It will sweep some teams and will do 0 to others. Match-up fishing is not a reason for me to Ban a Mon and this one requires a lot of support + commit to Tera to work. Some teams aurolose to it, but others autowin without even preparing specifically for it. Not a problem for the Tier.
Volcarona: Very good Mon, but far from broken. We already had this Mon in DLC1 Meta of SS, with Boots and no Heatran. It was very far from broken there. With Tera, is better than DLC1 SS one, but there are still sure counters and very solid checks. Every physical Tera Fire Mon (there are a lot viable ones, explore them) . Toxic Clodsire. Skeledirge except the very niche Tera Water. Pex vs no Psychic. TW Pult. Flash Fire Mons. Facade Mons (seen some Dragonites with that).
Dragapult: Tera Water and Electric on Specs are good.
Iron Treads: I still consider this guy a good alternative to Tusk. Tusk is better as offensive Mon, but Treads is better as Rocks + Spin Mon with some good role compressions and better defensive typing.
Kingambit: I predict this guy to be a B rank at most in like 6 months when people realize how easy it is to prepare for it due to that speed. Right now it's still good and it will always be, but it will end up very far from a dominating force.
Corviknight: Pdef=big trash. Sdef=Good, Defog or BU. Won't elaborate.
Iron Valiant: Just like Greninja, might become banworthy in the future due to Specs alone, but has many amazing sets. One of the hardest to check Mons in the Tier. Not broken yet.
Ting Lu: Standard set= Bad. Weird innovations (Band, Restalk, trap + Taunt, etc.) = great potential.
Garchomp: Unironically great when offensive, be it SD or Mixed Tera Fire. Extremely hard to avoid losing a Mon to it, unless using Stall.
Glimmora: Just like the 2 guys above, offensive sets are way better on this.
Hippowdon: Along with Tusk (who is a little worse at the task due to lack of recovery), it's the one guy that prevents Band Pawmot from being one prediction away from destroying everything slower than it.
Baxcalibur= Band>>>>>DD.
Iron Moth and Slither Wing: Lots of unexplored Tera and moveset potential here, this will increase usage in the future.
Eeveelutions: Will keep them to myself for now, but I see niches for every single of them (including Glaceon of course). This didn't happen even in early SS.
Yea but you can’t reflect rapid spin with magic bounce because rapid spin is an attack. Gholdengo is immune to spin
Yes. Gholdengo is good because of a combination of traits. I've just always thought of Good as Gold as being the best status prevention ability, and have only just reconciled with the fact it isn't really.
The tier needs knock off absorbers, found one.
Flamigo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Roost
- Taunt
Flamigo can repeatedly come into knock despite its below-average physical bulk thanks to resists and investments. It can then unleash its attacks, roost or taunt to cripple a mon. It also is immune to spikes and toxic spikes, while also not being weak to stealth rock, which is a key factor in coming in repeatedly to absorb knock off in a hazard infested meta game.
The speed EVs are used to out speed max speed Great Tusk. It walls great tusk (other than the rare Play Rough) and can check Iron Threads and threaten a strong STAB attack against both elephants. Additionally, scrappy is a bonus to check Gholdengo lacking Scarf and prevent Pult from ever coming in.
Flamigo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Roost
- Taunt
Flamigo can repeatedly come into knock despite its below-average physical bulk thanks to resists and investments. It can then unleash its attacks, roost or taunt to cripple a mon. It also is immune to spikes and toxic spikes, while also not being weak to stealth rock, which is a key factor in coming in repeatedly to absorb knock off in a hazard infested meta game.
The speed EVs are used to out speed max speed Great Tusk. It walls great tusk (other than the rare Play Rough) and can check Iron Threads and threaten a strong STAB attack against both elephants. Additionally, scrappy is a bonus to check Gholdengo lacking Scarf and prevent Pult from ever coming in.
In a vacuum, Magic Bounce is effective against more things. Good as Gold has a different interaction with Parting Shot, blocks Memento and Trick on top of Defog obviously. Magic Bounce however bounces back hazards, being in this way the opposite side of the same coin in that it makes hazards hard to place instead of hard to remove, and is arguably more effective against the things that both block because it bounces them back instead of just blocking them. The point is that Gholdengo is far superior stat wise to any Magic Bounce user currently available, even if its ability could be argued as inferior, and its Ghost type makes the Defog blocking perk particularly effective because otherwise it would just be getting spinned on.
AAA has banned Magic Bounce but not Good as Gold, so make of that what you will.
Extrasensory
I hate toxpaex - yes . I never fought with Finch , but well yea your prediction would definately be correct if I would do so [ except the 6 toxapex counter - feels kinda stupid to do so] .
arguably the most splashable mon in the meta is a physically bulky fighting-type who's also the tier's most consistent hazard remover and often runs an item it consumes immediately, and there's like a single-digit number of knock off users on the vr. i really don't feel like we're desperate for knock off absorbers right now. that said, good set, flamigo's a pretty based mon. i also think
is a pretty good knock off absorber—it shares a lot of defensive traits with flamigo and can come packing unburden + acrobatics to make knock off users really suffer, as well as defog to remove hazards on its ownUnburden boost only activates once per battle and you lost the boost if you switch, so it is very situational.arguably the most splashable mon in the meta is a physically bulky fighting-type who's also the tier's most consistent hazard remover and often runs an item it consumes immediately, and there's like a single-digit number of knock off users on the vr. i really don't feel like we're desperate for knock off absorbers right now. that said, good set, flamigo's a pretty based mon. i also think
suspect in a little over 20m
Bye Bye Chien Pao
ive walked 20m and touched grass, where is my suspect test
Chien-Pao is being suspected in SV OU! For more, check out: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-sv-ou-suspect-process-round-2-munch.3715256/
+4 252+ Atk Weavile Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 482-570 (111 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKOWeavile returning to OU after Pao gets banned like:
+6 252+ Atk Weavile Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 430-507 (106.4 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Weavile Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 410-486 (112.9 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
goat mon is unwallable fr bro will dominate