Finch ma man, try Grass Knot, you're gonna love it
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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imagine using memento instead of eject pack make it rain, smh my head
I've seen it before over Grimmsnarl, I see it working but I like Prankster so it's just a good suprise set.
I've been enjoying Gren quite a bit. Specs 4 attacks is what I'm mostly using, and it's on the team I was using to climb for reqs. Good mon, 8/10.
Also, I've been seeing some REALLY weird-ass Espathra sets recently. One was Tera Fairy Speed Boost Lumina Crash, seemingly without Calm Mind. The other was what I think to be Scarf Opportunist with Lumina Crash. It keeps catching me off guard and hitting my Dirge excessively hard.
Greninja doesn't wholely compete with Ace and Meow as the former is more a utility/offensive pivot and Meow is a physical breaker. Greninja fills its own niche and is a special breaker and one of our last remaining options for special water offense.
As for how I feel, I've been loving it. Specs is a great breaker that takes advantage of a lot of common structures running around, and if you want you can have it also function as a spiker since it forces so many switches. Despite the early predictions from some people that Greninja would be underwhelming or even drop, it actually feels like one of the better pokemon in the metagame right now.
Also specs Gren on rain is quite fun.
I honestly feel bad for finch and the rest of the council, this next month of the meta they’re basically moving blind. I feel like the best course of action would be a quick ban immediately following this current suspect test with assumption one of two things happens.
1. Home’s is released with in the next 3 or so weeks and everything is unbanned anyway.
2. anything quick banned gets a suspect test Knowing that Home is at least a month and a half away
On to the actual Pokémon
Pao is getting banned it’s no point in talking about it
Espthra is broken, almost solely because of Tera, but when we refused to ban Tera we basically committed to banning multiple Pokémon because of it.
Garg is very annoying, I’ve had less problems since I started running grassknot greninja who pretty much OHKO’s him regardless of his type. Even if I think he might be broken, I don’t think he’s broken in a home meta so I’m not too worried about making him a priority.
Im also totally onboard with (almost) unbanning everything in a home meta. It’s so many meta defining Pokémon coming at once i think it’s extremely reasonable to see how everything interacts.
1. Home’s is released with in the next 3 or so weeks and everything is unbanned anyway.
2. anything quick banned gets a suspect test Knowing that Home is at least a month and a half away
On to the actual Pokémon
Pao is getting banned it’s no point in talking about it
Espthra is broken, almost solely because of Tera, but when we refused to ban Tera we basically committed to banning multiple Pokémon because of it.
Garg is very annoying, I’ve had less problems since I started running grassknot greninja who pretty much OHKO’s him regardless of his type. Even if I think he might be broken, I don’t think he’s broken in a home meta so I’m not too worried about making him a priority.
Im also totally onboard with (almost) unbanning everything in a home meta. It’s so many meta defining Pokémon coming at once i think it’s extremely reasonable to see how everything interacts.
Looks like another espathra drops to dragapult tera ghost in the first SPL for this week. :)
Uh, I can't tell if you're trolling, but didn't the Espathra just sweep if it didn't get crit? Here is the replay for those that haven't seen it. On turn 12, the Tera Fairy Espathra gets crit but a Tera Ghost, presumably Specs Shadow Ball from Pult. We don't know the full spreads, but even if the Espathra is just max HP, no SpDef, here's the calc:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Espathra: 220-260 (55.8 - 65.9%)
So, if the Espathra doesn't get crit, it gets to +2 Speed and then it can Protect the next turn to get to +3 Speed, all while also getting Leftovers recovery. From there, it can CM again and live a second Shadow Ball (again, baring crit) with this roll:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Espathra: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%)
Luthier needed to crit the Espathra on one of two turns, otherwise he would have been facing a likely +2 SpA, +2 SpDef, +4 Speed Espathra still behind a sub. It could get up to +5 Speed after one more Protect, so if Luthier went with Gholdengo after the Pult dropped to try to break the Espathra's Sub and then have a last hope of revenge killing it with Extremespeed from Dragonite, the Gholdengo would be coming in at 76% after the Spike damage and this would be the roll from a +2SpA, +2SpDef, +5 Speed Espathra:
+2 0 SpA Tera Fairy Espathra Stored Power (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 233-275 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO from 76%
Obviously, I don't know the spreads so those calcs may not have been exactly how the game would have turned out, but regardless, if the Pult didn't crit the Espathra, Luthier would have need to try to take down a heavily boosted Espathra behind a sub that would have either just ended the game on the spot, or it would have at least left Beraldinho in a commanding position to finish the game.
You'd be correct, but I wouldn't bother arguing with them since they haven't really been engaging in constructive discussions regarding Espathra's brokenness (arguably trolling).
I think with Espathra seeing use more and more, and more experimentation with different tera types, it only shows how much a lot of counterplay to it feels very circumstantial and dependant on having the right mons for the right specific tera type. Very little true counterplay to it overlaps for all of its sets and it feels like dealing with it in battle is akin to walking on eggshells to avoid giving it that one turn.
that particular user has been wrong 100% of the time about the brokenness of various things and has been engaging in bad-faith arguments since day 1. if they say something isn't broken, you can be sure that it is. i can't tell if they're trolling, but that's honestly the more charitable interpretation in this case
What are you talking about? Georgie said those mons aren't broken though, so there's no way they are!
I haven’t seen around in a while but this post looks quite tame. Appreciate you being nicer this time around.
It's a bit of a side tangent, but in regards to all the players who dismiss the importance of the casual player base like they would something unpleasant on their shoe:
No, tiering decisions should not be dictated by casual players, who are neither informed nor invested enough to be making those calls.
But what's even worse is actively disparaging them, and actively refusing to consider their opinions. "Hardcore" / "serious" / (preferred adjective here) players do not emerge fully-formed from the depths of the internet, stepping out into the ranks of the 1800 ELO player base. They develop from either cartridge play or casual online play, enjoy themselves enough to get hooked, and stay with the game. One of the few constants in gaming is that failing to acknowledge the importance of 'new' players leads to stagnation at best, and a slow death at worst.
The OU Council is doing a remarkably good job this generation of soliciting their opinions and making sure that casual players have their chance to provide feedback, without letting that dictate their choices. Demanding fast, unilateral action for everything runs contrary to the long-term health of the metagame.
No, tiering decisions should not be dictated by casual players, who are neither informed nor invested enough to be making those calls.
But what's even worse is actively disparaging them, and actively refusing to consider their opinions. "Hardcore" / "serious" / (preferred adjective here) players do not emerge fully-formed from the depths of the internet, stepping out into the ranks of the 1800 ELO player base. They develop from either cartridge play or casual online play, enjoy themselves enough to get hooked, and stay with the game. One of the few constants in gaming is that failing to acknowledge the importance of 'new' players leads to stagnation at best, and a slow death at worst.
The OU Council is doing a remarkably good job this generation of soliciting their opinions and making sure that casual players have their chance to provide feedback, without letting that dictate their choices. Demanding fast, unilateral action for everything runs contrary to the long-term health of the metagame.
you mean you don't know about the big machine finch keeps in his basement that generates hardcore competitive pokemon players? it can even customize stuff like how much grass they touch (default: 4 blades per year) and how good their rng is (default: close to perfect, but only against you in particular)
But you can use UU and UUBL mons in OU anyways? There are legitimately decent mons from UU and below in OU
Garg and Pao are not banned yet and even if they are gone i feel like breloom is still really good! It is also not explored to its fullest potential yet. So just use it! :)
I see what you're saying, but there is a degree of rigor we should expect from people who engage in these topics. Many people play competitive mons at varying degrees of engagement and still only contribute to these threads when they have something to say and have considered as much as they can whether they're repeating old arguments etc.
The thing is the only way people can find out what's appropriate for these discussions is from other people in them. This thread has been posted in a LOT to the point that archives of discussion on a topic are borderline inaccessible and the main thing keeping us in check is each other. People might feel dismissed by this drive to get to the point but I think it's more important to protect the process than it is to protect peoples' feelings.
I get the drive to include people but no two "casual" players look the same in how they engage with the game, the time it takes to analyse this to include them is a discussion that could happen but in another thread imo. There's already a place for people to air whatever thoughts they have without having to put much thought into it, PS rooms are live chats after all.
Agree wholeheartedly.
Breloom realistically only works ""well"" against a team with no resists to Spore. It's the fastest Spore user in the game, and outside of that it is too frail and too slow to really do much. It loses to Chien-Pao Ice Shard of all things lmao. It actually loses to a lot of things, come to think of it.
Breloom has never been a "mach punch go brr" pokemon. It has always required some thinking to use, but that doesn't detract from it being good. And the possible ban of Pao doesn't change that.
There are two good resists to Breloom's spore, being Amoonguss and Gholdengo, and Loom is far from helpless against the former. Saying that outside of its fast spore it's too frail to really do much is really down playing how strong it is, and can be, because the potency of its own offense in conjunction with spore can be quite tough to dance around when its in. Yes Pao's ice shard can beat Loom, but generally speaking shard is found most often on band sets (at least from my experience), meaning a choice locked Pao is chased out by Loom (and unless banded, ice shard won't KO a healthy Breloom).
And I have to ask, you say it loses to a lot of things, but what are those? Because stuff it does do well against includes many bulky Garchomp variants, defensive Great Tusk, several Garganacl variants, Kingambit, Dondozo, Hatterene, RotomW, Ting-Lu, Toxapex, Clodsire, Slowking, Azumarill...
Pao can kill it with shard and Garganacl can switch in on spore and tera + ID on it (unless its tera type is water) so I wouldn't call those its best matchups.
It also benefits from Espa leaving the tier, so I don't see what you're on about.
okay I guess that cores with breloom are impossible so I am just going to delete my past posts.
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