Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

Long time player, first time poster (at least on this account, which itself is old lol, I can't remember what my actual used one was) going to throw in a few cents since even I'm a little surprised by the current state of opinions on the meta/gen overall:

I'm seeing a few arguments in favor of compromising on tera: I understand the reasoning and logic behind banning, and while I'm personally against a ban (happy to provide detailed insight on this later), I do not understand the arguments behind not providing a fair compromise because it wouldn't fit cartridge mechanics. While Showdown is meant to be an accurate simulation, that is simply not true internally. Tiering, formats, etc. and exceptions to cartridge rules already make it stray away from that purpose.

Now while staying true as possible may be the intent why not give room to allowing further exceptions to be made? As it stands, we're now 9 generations in and the game is not holding up to how past policies were conducted. Power creep is real and everything appears to be 'busted' as it can be, why not allow the meta to develop and adjust in terms of this upscale? By that I don't mean don't ban obviously broken things (cough Flutter cough), or suspect when reasonable...but it seems like Smogon's policies on banning more offensive concepts versus GameFreak's ideals of making competitive more offensive are at too much of an odds now to not have some internal review to compromise. I fully do not believe defensive playstyles and what not are invalidated and will present itself once the meta stabilizes however it does, but I do think the way opinions are presented in this thread make it seem like the tier itself should just be pushed altogether upwards.

Ultimately, what I'm asking here is what are the odds of an internal policy review in regards to how the metagame is being assessed? The Houndstone vs Last Respects argument also makes me think there might be room here for pushing forward compromising on creating some way to keep tera in, and how current OU threats are assessed. Personally, I'd love tera to stick because it adds an interesting dimension and is fun — regardless of whether you find it broken or not — and I'd love to see an idea like the OU (tera) and OU (tera free) form, or altogether allow competitive to adjust to recognizing that we're only going to find new complex situations develop with each generation and power creep.

 

[Breadboy]

So what's the consensus as of now on Dudunsparce?

 

[bogglywoods]

So what's the consensus as of now on Dudunsparce?

Not sure of the general consensus but it performs a lot better than I expected it to, but still not great. Was really hoping it'd be Dunsparce's big break but I guess not :(

 

[Msousa]

Here's a team I've been using.

https://pokepast.es/a766d84b1a4b94ce

I'd say Palafin-H is the number one threat I consider when team-building right now, even more so than Flutter Mane was. Having normal types on your team, even just one, was enough to deal with Houndstone. But Palafin, that guy is just bonkers.

The team looks pretty cool, and for dondozo I like the idea of body press, but being real, I never felt the need of running def instead of spd. That thing suffers from special attackers and being able to survive their attacks is a huge plus. It's still walled by clod aswell, but I liked the idea of dropping sleep talk. Perhaps quake or zen headbutt might be better, I'll try later today to see how it can break through.
Edited cause didn't specify which mon I meant

 

[Karoshi]

So what's the consensus as of now on Dudunsparce?

Tried Dudunsparce; exactly the same as old Dunsparce. Fun and can do stuff with Serene Grace shenanigans but not reliable, gimmicky and dead weight alot of the time. Same goes for Eviolite Dunsparce but moreso. Hope one or both find a niche in the lower tiers.

 

[Clas]

I think flutter mane should go, but not houndstone
sure it’s fluffy set is good I don’t think it’s good enough to get banNed tho
if your gonna ban houndstone you might aswell Ban kingambit

the sand rush set is the broken one my guy, not fluffy (which sucks). its pretty much a 1-move darm-g that has set variety to back it up.

 

[GraylyHen94]

A Tera Preview mod would still allow the mechanic to enable busted up sweepers and would lead to some really awkward 50/50s which really aren’t particularly good for a metagame. A good rule of thumb is; if a mechanic is so busted you have to mod the game to nerf it, it should probably just be banned outright. Is Terastalizing really that compelling of a mechanic that we need to bend over backwards to let it stay? I don’t think so.

And before you say it, Sleep Clause has precedent as an official Nintendo rule. HP% mod just does the math legwork for you, it doesnt drastically give you information you wouldn’t otherwise be privy to.

A good rule of thumb as moderators of a game is to hear people out and work to tame something instead of claiming that it's "bending over backwards". "Hey bro my DNite is a Fire type" which is answerd by "Yeah bro". Wording it as compelling is also dishonest, it's the fact that it can be worked with rather than DMax which was just plain absurd. Sleep Clause had, not has btw. No one looks to 97 or Stadium as the standard for play, especially when you see sleep in ORAS BSS or BW as a whole

 

[rosesscythes]

Can I ask how definitive these early meta bans are? Are they gonna be retested or reconsidered later or are they banned until enough members of the community agree and ask to unban them?

Most bans of this era will be retested later on when Home and DLC drop as the metagame has new things introduced. It's also been stated that if Terastilizing is banned, most Pokemon banned beforehand will also be retested. I imagine a few exceptions will be put in place, depending on how consensus shakes out.

I'm seeing a few arguments in favor of compromising on tera: I understand the reasoning and logic behind banning, and while I'm personally against a ban (happy to provide detailed insight on this later), I do not understand the arguments behind not providing a fair compromise because it wouldn't fit cartridge mechanics. While Showdown is meant to be an accurate simulation, that is simply not true internally. Tiering, formats, etc. and exceptions to cartridge rules already make it stray away from that purpose.

At this point I also have to disagree with the notion that a so-called "Tera Reveal" clause would even violate cartridge mechanics. By nature, Smogon rules are something of a gentleman's agreement, especially when brought to cartridge (as was more possible in the days before the accursed 20-minute timer). "Tera Reveal" is no more changing the game than agreeing with an opponent on cartridge to just naming your Pokemon to their Tera Type as a form of reveal, much as you can agree not to bring Evasion or not to Dynamax. It's certainly less changing the game than Sleep or Freeze clause, clauses that on cartridge are effectively impossible due to the potentially random nature of both.

 

[Clas]

A good rule of thumb as moderators of a game is to hear people out and work to tame something instead of claiming that it's "bending over backwards". "Hey bro my DNite is a Fire type" which is answerd by "Yeah bro". Wording it as compelling is also dishonest, it's the fact that it can be worked with rather than DMax which was just plain absurd. Sleep Clause had, not has btw. No one looks to 97 or Stadium as the standard for play, especially when you see sleep in ORAS BSS or BW as a whole

doesnt keep tera from still being broken. sure you know what can come now but...thats it? the breakers will still be broken, adapt goes crazy, and all of a sudden u have to play around something that you usually wouldnt have to all because tera as a gimmick is so restricting. this isnt almost any ability where adaptability is common but so is intim/fur coat, this is just adaptability in a metagame built around regular power levels, and this is excluding the other side which is changing ur type entirely to still be overpowered (see roaring moon where it commonly runs steel yet is still broken bc of said tera type).

 

[Cautiousduck]

Booster energy great tusk doesn't have a reliable switch in. For example dondozo can take both it's stabs and 1v1 it rocky helmet rest talk, however it will loss to electric tera blast. Dondozo would have tera itself to bug/fairy to stop this behemoth.

Corvi can also play some mind games on predicted headlong rush and attempt to stall out closecombat but it will similarly loss to electric tera blast. Corvi also has to tera to even think about taking any hits.

Defensive Dragonite can beat it will icebeam, however if it has ice spinner you are kinda toast.

It can also be a sweeper with rapid spin without much counter play as it's very hard to revenge with what's available in the meta right now. You are guaranteed to loss a pokemon once it's in and it's not hard to get this thing going at all.

This brings back shades of sub mega heracross but even better as it can sweep. Maybe I'm overlooking some stuff, correct me if anything is wrong.

 

[GraylyHen94]

doesnt keep tera from still being broken. sure you know what can come now but...thats it? the breakers will still be broken, adapt goes crazy, and all of a sudden u have to play around something that you usually wouldnt have to all because tera as a gimmick is so restricting. this isnt almost any ability where adaptability is common but so is intim/fur coat, this is just adaptability in a metagame built around regular power levels, and this is excluding the other side which is changing ur type entirely to still be overpowered (see roaring moon where it commonly runs steel yet is still broken bc of said tera type).

Then in the case of double STAB you make it so you cannot Tera into your own type. This took two seconds to think of and has been suggested by others already

 

[Dive Missile]

Then in the case of double STAB you make it so you cannot Tera into your own type. This took two seconds to think of and has been suggested by others already

this is why people call it "bending over backwards". if tera is so broken we need to introduce industrial levels of restriction on it then how about we just ban it and perhaps make it a separate metagame if enough people are interested in using it in an ou environment. it's just a massive waste of time that could be spent developing an actual metagame.

 

[Local Dog]

I have still not seen a single argument for why tera would be broken I can agree with. The abusers of it are already strong and possibly problematic by themselves without tera. I see no reason to ban one of the most interesting mechanics we've had in 10+ years

 

[Clas]

Then in the case of double STAB you make it so you cannot Tera into your own type. This took two seconds to think of and has been suggested by others already

and then theres still the issue of adapt-boosted mons literally everywhere. are you going to ban every good breaker/setup mon because they abuse tera in a way that puts them over the edge when they otherwise would be fine? because in regular tiering u ban the centralising force, not the abusers.

 

[The Funky Reason]

Now that pokeaim said he wants to keep tera there will be people coming out of the woodwork defending it. There just is no way tera is balanced or competitive in anyway.

It is a stupid swing factor that adds so much stochasticity to the game for very little value. Yeah it's cute that you can use some creative sets but overall it makes so many sweepers get away with murder. Setting up my dark or fighting weak mon as opponent switches breloom or kingambit etc just to tera fairy to now resist priority and go for game is so dumb. Even if I don't go for game eliminating any of those can open the game out for other sweepers. Tera supporters, answer me, was my opponent bad for not predicting the tera and not mach/sucker punching? What if they predict tera and I don't and now they lost there prior user. Was he bad for not running sciz too to catch sweepers tera typing to avoid sucker and mach punch, the two most common forms of priority right now? ow BKC has a really good video about how most 50s/50s aren't, but these are true 50/50s and if the non tera player gets it wrong they nearly always lose the game. I know people in here say "that's good, it's more offensive" but I would argue that tera is both great for offense and sucks for offense. When I was playing balance, my defensive back bone was generally strong enough to weather the storm of a tera sweeper. On offense, one turn of resisting a priority move, followed by triple stab can be lights out very quickly. Once again, what is the point of keeping this crazy stochastic element? If you could sus out an item that let you tera it would likely be okay but nearly every turn until your opponent teras is a guessing game. This isn't even fixed by announcing teras, since until your opponent clicks that button any of there mons can tera at any point (doesn't make sense every turn but usually around half.) Tera is absolute trash and needs to go. People are way to attached to cartridge. Game freak does not balance the game with competitive in mind, let alone VGC. Final plea to tera supporters, do you want to see the many offensive threats that abuse it banned, or keep all of those mons and lose tera?

I want to talk about something actually interesting, because the tera typing is a bunch of people coping about keeping it.

Chein pao is incredibly misunderstood right now. People don't understand the ability interacts multiplicatively with boosts. Someone else pointed it out on the leak thread with some nice calcs, that it works out that swords dance is quite a bit stronger than weavile while neutral isn't. It means don't do the boots shit. Pair it with one of the donphans that very reliably remove hazards and run life orb or band. Life orb off the rip is incredibly strong because of math and swords dance compounds this further. He is very, very strong. I have been spamming the shit out of that on balance. Sorry if saying "balance" made anyone in this thread vomit not everything in this game is offense (:

 

[bogglywoods]

People wanting to ban the Pokemon that benefit most from a broken mechanic instead of the broken mechanic is baffling. You really would take a type change that typically invalidates skillfulness and playing smart over having and getting to use new Pokemon? It's so insane to me that I genuinely can't wrap my head around the thought process. That isn't even mentioning how much it leaves room for sloppy team building succeeding because you have an insta-coverage button.

 

[Local Dog]

Now that pokeaim said he wants to keep tera there will be people coming out of the woodwork defending it. There just is no way tera is balanced or competitive in anyway.

There have been plenty of people defending it from day one...

Honestly I just hate when discussions are done like this. This doesn't invalidate any of the points that are made for tera and just tries to invalidate the people that argue so

 

[bogglywoods]

To be completely honest (could be the sleep deprivation so sorry if this is completely wrong) but based on my participation here and at the very least lurking since the start of the gen, most arguments in favor of tera just fall along the lines of "this is the most good/fun/interesting/positive adjective gimmick since (arbitrary amount of time)" or "I think it's fun" and the few and far between justifications I see outside of that do nothing to convince me of the virtue of keeping it in the main tier. Hell, I think it's a fun mechanic myself, but it's incredibly uncompetitive and I really hope it gets sent off to its own metagame upstate soon.

 

[Finchinator]

Can I ask how definitive these early meta bans are? Are they gonna be retested or reconsidered later or are they banned until enough members of the community agree and ask to unban them?

Well Flutter Mane is for sure staying Ubers unless something fundamentally changes. It just has no place ever in an OU metagame with how strong and fast it is. Houndstone is likely to come back for Home after some procedural matters though.

Anyways, I personally am highly against further bans at this point. I am very much against the Houndstone ban and believe that by taking certain new mons, the game will be less interesting

With all due respect, what makes the game “interesting” for you and the next guy can be entirely different. Personally, I find the game most “interesting” when there’s a competitive product. I know others who find it most “interesting” when every playstyle is viable. And so on.

Given this, we done tier to cater to individual interests as that is quite literally impossible. We tier to find a competitive metagame and consistently playable product. That is going to require more bans as there are some restrictive Pokemon remaining. I feel that Houndstone as it was already was obscenely broken and made games awkwardly focused on a single sequence, so I implore you to keep an open mind on quality control matters.

A lot of the top tiers are highly dependent on how they are positioned, requiring both skill from the player that uses them and the opponent. Palafin for example, you can't just go in. You have to find an opportunity to switch out, then switch in again, whilst having to consider different sets that all have their own opportunity costs. Non hero Palafin is very weak and can be either OHKO'd or heavily weakened by non super effective moves, if you don't run HBD you also get extra rolled over by hazards. Whilst we are on HBD, Palafin has several sets with different use cases and as said, each of those has opportunity costs. Non scarf Palafin gets outsped and revenge killed from Pult with minimal chip, non HBD Palafin suffers from hazards, LO Palafin adds recoil damage on top of the hazard damage...

I mean all of this is true about Palafin, but the entire Paladin discussion has began to revolve around the Bulk Up set, which many people honestly lead with and just pivot out to avoid liability status. Obviously this sets you back a single turn in some match-ups, but the reward and near uncounterability tends to be well worthwhile from there. Amoonguss? You beat with Taunt + Tera Steel. Revenge killing? It’s going to be hard around a potentially doubly boosted priority STAB with 60 BP. And so on. Unless you’re facing Slowbro, it’s going to be a challenge.

You see the Mon on team preview and you know that you gotta consider it, which is possible. Again, it takes effort from both parties in switching in and reacting to it. The conditions were it rolls over teams are dependent on these efforts and their effect. It's skill based and not like Vish or Spectrier last gen

What you’re describing applies to Pokemon like Vish and Spectrier though — taking effort to use, having a barrier to entry, and so on. Neither of these Pokemon were immune to that. All of the entry-level issues apply universally, including to these Pokemon, new Pokemon, and their potential defensive answers. There has not exactly been a mention of actual checks or counters, which is really what is needed for a semblance of balance.

Shed Tail is similar. You see Cylizar in preview and you know that it will come. According to the rest of the team you see and have yourself, you can act on it. Hazard stacking, keeping the mons in the back that are able to deal with Shed Tail or the set up Mon behind it

I just want to point out that given the power creep and how many strong presences reside on Cyclizar offenses still, it’s not possible usually to switch to something that covers both Cyclizar and the multiple possible Shed Tail recipients, so I find this point to be especially idealistic and unrealistic.

To adapt and understand to these mons once you perceive them in preview and to position in accordance to it seems to be the most important skill in this new meta and frankly, I love it. It makes them game actually feel fresh and rewards analytical skills, unusual team building and long term strategy

I feel those skills apply to any metagame and are largely dwarfed compared to more playable metagame states with all the guesswork around Tera timing and top offensive threats having such a limited pool of checks. Also, teambuilding is more limited than ever if you want to actually cover things — the main thing is that we are still in the “new toy” phase, which allows everyone to just try what they want and allows us to keep some of the more broken things as we progressively tier rather than aggressively tier. There are probably a half dozen possible bans, but we really only tackled the first couple and maybe will only tackle another one or two down the road in the immediate future, but that’s not exactly because the metagame is some picture of health — it’s very much not.

I hope I don't sound like an asshole when I say this, I guess most people here who ask for bans than me random smuck and I don't want to attack or degrade anyone's take on the meta, but I think that people are too hasty to judge on the new mons and oftentimes didn't manage to adapt to the new threats. I also don't want to say "just adapt" to everything, I understand that threats like Mane can't be easily adapted too and warp team building too much around them, but I don't see any other threat atm that is at that point

I am curious how you consistently find a pool of checks/counters to things like Palafin and Iron Bundle then, which are both approaching Houndstone levels Imo.

I think that bans on mons such as Houndstone, Palafin or Cylizar will make the game a lot more like gen 8's meta and I don't want the fourth gen that's mechanically and gameplay wise like gen 6. The current meta is extremely interesting and mons that seem broken on paper (but are still adaptable to in game, unlike for example Flutter Mane) are part of the reason for it

Generation 8’s metagame is absurdly different than 6 or 7 — boots alone warp so much, but the abundance of hyper offense, the surge of Teleport and Future Sight, and the slew of new Pokemon (or Ubers dropped down like Blaziken and Aegislash) make it entirely different. Add this to the fact that it was quite literally received very well by the community for the second half of the generation (see the survey scores if you would like) and I find this to be really, really off-base.

Please abstain from bans the next few weeks. We have years to figure out this meta and I agree with banning something when it becomes problematic, but I don't agree with sniffing out interesting aspects of the new meta before they can fully develope

If another ban or two on things that impede upon a competitive metagame is seen as a bad thing by you, then I implore you to shift perspectives.

There are dozens of interesting, unique aspects of the tier. But there is no true, playable tier without a semblance of competitive balance. It doesn’t have to be perfect and it surely should not be overdone at this point, but some bans are needed when there are so many overpowered Pokemon.

 

[5camp]

The counter to "ban tera because it means sweepers can invalidate counterplay by changing their type" is that Pokemon has always had hidden elements that invalidate counterplay and let Pokemon beat their counters. It's just we are so used to these elements that it becomes second nature to prepare for these unknown elements. Salamence is about to get revenged by ice shard Weavile, until it reveals Yache Berry. Salamence is outsped by Weavile, until it reveals it has a choice scarf. Salamence dies in one hit to ice shard, until you discover it has an extremely defensive EV spread to account for that. Salamence...ok I can't keep thinking of Salamence Weavile examples, but Tangrowth can wall Crawdaunt, until it reveals it has Sludge Bomb.

These are all hidden information from us at the start, but ones we can account for while examining their team. Tera is new. We haven't had a chance to really examine what the game looks like with it in place. We're just used to these other hidden elements so take them as normal parts of Pokemon.

I'm not even opposed to banning tera to be honest, haven't decided yet. I unfortunately don't think it can stay in its current form. The problem it has is the same inherent problem dynamax had, in that it so massively helps sweepers compared to anything else that every time you try to ban one tera sweeper, another one takes its place. I think gamefreak fucked up by both having mons keep their original stabs AND granted super-stab to the same type. Without those elements, I think it would be perfectly fine.

(plz ban same type tera, it's so fucking dumb and not even an interesting part of the mechanic, it just makes everything spam their overpowered stabs urgh I hate it so much)

 

[rosesscythes]

I think Tera is ultimately uncompetitive for mainline Smogon play. The nature of it, in contrast to Dynamax's straightforwardness as a wincon, is a variability that goes beyond what's typical for any preceding OU. But that's also what makes it fun to play. Unlike Dynamax, there's actual creativity to Terastalizing and a huuuuuuge wealth of potential that it'd be a shame to have to completely burn out of the game with the exception of AG, a tier that may not even have any actual Pokemon exclusive to it this gen and will always predicate itself on things far worse than Tera such as Baton Pass and Evasion, the latter of which will be worse than ever with neither Z-Moves or Dynamax to hit through it. (And note: mark my words that if Tera is seen as uncompetitive in OU, it'll be seen as uncompetitive in Ubers and get banned there too. Sending it up there is inevitably, like Dynamax, just taking the real problem and pushing it to another set of Pokemon, as limited as that set may be at the moment).

I really wouldn't mind an individualized Tera meta ala DW OU, with or without clauses. It's not something that should be played in major tourns like SPL or OLT, nor do I think it even deserves a properly mandated ladder, but I do think unlike Dynamax's sheer overwhelming force there's enough room that it is still PLAYABLE in a more casualized environment without sinking to being exactly like cartridge 6v6. Furthermore, I think the argument that it "splits the playerbase" is Tauros-spit when you consider that those who'll hate this meta either for the choice to ban Tera or for the merits of the meta itself won't be playing the main ladder anyways, so why not give them their own option? It's better optics, at the very least, optics that actually encourage people to play Showdown in some form instead of furthering their fear and hatred of competitive Pokemon as complete fun-hating ban hell.

Think along the lines of the difference between Ranked game modes and Social game modes in FPS games like Halo. OU and other metas without Terastilizing are the former, where weapons that just aren't right for proper competition as the Hydra (a rocket launcher with lock-on) or the Cindershot (a grenade launcher where the grenade follows the player reticule) never show up, while a "Tera OU" is the latter where you get to use those fun guns, even if it means sometimes getting dunked on or dunking on too easily. In the former, you have actual rank division and it's a true test of skill. In the latter there's some SBMM to prevent constant curbstomps by good players but mostly it's there to just chill out and play with less stress. Do those really utterly divide players, or do they give different types of players different options while still getting people into the game?

TLDR; if we can agree that Terastilizing is broken for competition but we can also agree that Terastalizing is fun and fresh and actually creative unlike Dynamax, then it'd be a shame to just discard it to the realm of Things Both More Broken And Less Inventive rather than giving it its own limelight that's not overshadowing the main game we're here for. It keeps players of all kinds, keeps Showdown active and gives it ad revenue, without disrupting the more core principle play of true Smogon competitive Pokemon.

(Also as an aside unrelated to mainline OU itself, I think giving Tera a space of its own to really flesh out its potential would inevitably lead to some pretty fun OMs! With exploration of its mechanics, creativity will start whirring not only in the minds of teambuilders and battlers, but also those who make metagames of their own. If nothing else, I'd want an individualized Tera OU as a petri dish, to see just how it'd evolve in its own space.)

 

[bogglywoods]

The counter to "ban tera because it means sweepers can invalidate counterplay by changing their type" is that Pokemon has always had hidden elements that invalidate counterplay and let Pokemon beat their counters. It's just we are so used to these elements that it becomes second nature to prepare for these unknown elements. Salamence is about to get revenged by ice shard Weavile, until it reveals Yache Berry. Salamence is outsped by Weavile, until it reveals it has a choice scarf. Salamence dies in one hit to ice shard, until you discover it has an extremely defensive EV spread to account for that. Salamence...ok I can't keep thinking of Salamence Weavile examples, but Tangrowth can wall Crawdaunt, until it reveals it has Sludge Bomb.

I think what isn't being understood is that those are things that can be accounted for in a reasonable capacity, especially since those options are weighed over other options. If that Salamence has a Choice Scarf and defensive EVs, it's at the cost of a more offensive EV spread and item that would let it work more effectively. If Crawdaunt has sludge bomb, it's there instead of another move that could serve it better in other niche scenarios. With Terastalizing, it's just a free bonus. You literally lose out on nothing by giving yourself a tera type that benefits you defensively because that's also going to give you better offense anyway, and there are 18 types you can choose from, even if some obviously wouldn't benefit you in that regard depending on the Pokemon and what tends to counter/check it. It gets even worse when it's something that's already solid defensively that can just give itself a free boost to already existing STAB, and both options just completely benefit the user for genuinely no investment or cost.

 

[Punchshroom]

The only new abuser Will be the basculegion male and female form, that are just the same Pokémon

There is actually another abuser; Basculin-White-Stripe . This, in my opinion, is the biggest reason why Last Respects should not be banned entirely first. If Basculin-White-Stripe ends up not being broken with Last Respects, then we lose the precedent to ban the move since it is not broken on all of its available users.

Edit: HOLY FUCK this is the most disgusting snipe that I have ever been sniped with.

 

[Smashburn]

I haven't really been into this thread that much, but realistically, how likely is it that Terastalization is banned from tiering altogether this generation? We're in an extremely offensive metagame (and even then I think that's an understatement), and even if it isn't banned by the relative end of the majority of tiering action, the ability to just change your typing or add an additional STAB boost on top of something that is already strong seems a bit broken and uncompetitive.

If it is inevitable that we see Terastalization get banned, speculatively, when would that be?

 

[chimp]

The counter to "ban tera because it means sweepers can invalidate counterplay by changing their type" is that Pokemon has always had hidden elements that invalidate counterplay and let Pokemon beat their counters. It's just we are so used to these elements that it becomes second nature to prepare for these unknown elements. Salamence is about to get revenged by ice shard Weavile, until it reveals Yache Berry. Salamence is outsped by Weavile, until it reveals it has a choice scarf. Salamence dies in one hit to ice shard, until you discover it has an extremely defensive EV spread to account for that. Salamence...ok I can't keep thinking of Salamence Weavile examples, but Tangrowth can wall Crawdaunt, until it reveals it has Sludge Bomb.

These are all hidden information from us at the start, but ones we can account for while examining their team. Tera is new. We haven't had a chance to really examine what the game looks like with it in place. We're just used to these other hidden elements so take them as normal parts of Pokemon.

I'm not even opposed to banning tera to be honest, haven't decided yet. I unfortunately don't think it can stay in its current form. The problem it has is the same inherent problem dynamax had, in that it so massively helps sweepers compared to anything else that every time you try to ban one tera sweeper, another one takes its place. I think gamefreak fucked up by both having mons keep their original stabs AND granted super-stab to the same type. Without those elements, I think it would be perfectly fine.

(plz ban same type tera, it's so fucking dumb and not even an interesting part of the mechanic, it just makes everything spam their overpowered stabs urgh I hate it so much)

The problem with your Salamence analogy is that all of those instances require some sort of trade-off. Yache Berry means you aren’t running a better boosting item, Choice Scarf means you can’t set up, etc. If it has defensive EVs then its not going to be as fast or as powerful. Besides, each of those examples can be discovered by the player through normal gameplay. If I see your Mence is faster than Pokemon its not supposed to be then I know its scarfed. I can look at damage rolls to know what item you may be running. Etc etc. There is no way to adequately predict which of the 18 Tera types your opponent may be running or which of the 6 Pokemon on their team they may activate it on. It requires no sacrifices on the team-builder side, unlike your examples. Surprise and prediction are part of Pokemon but certainly we agree it can go too far.

Also you say that you are unsure if Tera should be banned but then say that same-type Tera should be banned. Seems to me you’re on the ban side! Same-Type Tera is part of Tera, and dont think its a good idea to start splitting up a mechanic and picking and choosing what aspects we want and what aspects we dont.

For the record, I am all for keeping Tera if it can be demonstrated that it adds a layer of competitiveness and strategy but so far I have not seen any arguments to that point, and so far it has shown to add nothing but guesswork and unpredictability, far beyond any mechanic we’ve seen in the game so far.