Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Harmless said:
I doubt it. Shed tail isn't cyclizar's signature move and has clearly proved to be problematic as a move, rather than being a cyclizar exclusive issue. I don't think it's anything to lose sleep over, it's not like they're gonna start banning thousand arrows to keep zygarde legal, or rage fist to keep ahnillape legal or anything like that.
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To be fair, Pika Pal already suggested that Smeargle shouldn't be a factor for damaging moves, not saying that it is a bad opinion perse, but that is exactly what Empress wants to avoid, start making exceptions even when the distribution is low.
 
M24 said:
You can quite literally, already do this.
I don't see any need to introduce OTS when a gentleman's agreement to !showteam can just be done.
It not hiding the EV's is quite frankly the least important part of any set, you'll be able to guess 90% of pokemon's EV's based off of moves and items alone.

Pokemon, wether it's been in singles or doubles has historically been a game of information gathering, OTS entirely removes this element as a poor man's solution to an unrestricted metagame with Tera. Frankly the "we can't know until we try" is not true at all, ask your opponents on the ladder if they'd like to agree to an open sheet match, I can guarantee you 90% won't want to.
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okay so I am really behind I know, but to be clear:

open team sheet is at this point really well liked by a lot of top VGC players

and some are even questioning why open team sheet hasn't been standard for a decade

it is probably a thing in tournament VGC due to tera, but OTS also can make some more consistency against random techs, which require new sets to be genuinely good even without the surprise factor

that being said im not saying add it to OU, but open team sheet isn't just "a poor man's solution to an unrestricted metagame with Tera", it's just actually pretty good for a tournament setting like VGC which is Pick 4 (meaning you already still don't know what team will actually be brought to the battle), and almost every turn makes huge progress
 
Mega Breloom said:
To be fair, Pika Pal already suggested that Smeargle shouldn't be a factor for damaging moves, not saying that it is a bad opinion perse, but that is exactly what Empress wants to avoid, start making exceptions even when the distribution is low.
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My proposition there was based on the fact that when it comes to a move/ability being uncompetitive across multiple users, there needs to be a point where some amount of human judgement does factor in compared to something simply being stupidly powerful as the crux of its suspecting. It's kind of the opposite of the slippery slope with not letting in knee-capped Ubers (EX: Kyogre without EVs or Mewtwo with a fixed nature or such deliberately absurd hypotheticals): does the move suddenly prove itself competitive vs all the users just because we put it on something that is designed in as inefficient as possible a way to use it? Does Last Respects become a competitive move if it does not make Smeargle OP such that the other two users are banworthy for having otherwise-normal Kits?

Like, this rule if no human-input is done would basically only ever result in stupid Status moves being suspected. Plus if the point of how most suspect/bans are handled is for the sake of simplicity and consistency, is it not more of a headache to have to explain a swath of individual bans vs the ban of a move that makes all-but-1 of the Mons that can learn it a problem?

I also kind of have my brain on this because when Home comes there's probably going to be some thought (if not any actual action) about Sneasler's Dire Claw and its effective 1/6 chance to just give free Sleep on a switch-in.
 
Ast0rga said:
¿Qué responderías al argumento:

"Baton Pass está prohibido, Shed Tail es Baton Pass con esteroides, debería desaparecer"
[/CITA]
It's not the same because batton pass passed the status increases. admit that the movement is not broken, annoying because it forces you to attack for breaking it and tox+protect is not enough
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pika pal said:
My proposition there was based on the fact that when it comes to a move/ability being uncompetitive across multiple users, there needs to be a point where some amount of human judgement does factor in compared to something simply being stupidly powerful as the crux of its suspecting. It's kind of the opposite of the slippery slope with not letting in knee-capped Ubers (EX: Kyogre without EVs or Mewtwo with a fixed nature or such deliberately absurd hypotheticals): does the move suddenly prove itself competitive vs all the users just because we put it on something that is designed in as inefficient as possible a way to use it? Does Last Respects become a competitive move if it does not make Smeargle OP such that the other two users are banworthy for having otherwise-normal Kits?

Like, this rule if no human-input is done would basically only ever result in stupid Status moves being suspected. Plus if the point of how most suspect/bans are handled is for the sake of simplicity and consistency, is it not more of a headache to have to explain a swath of individual bans vs the ban of a move that makes all-but-1 of the Mons that can learn it a problem?

I also kind of have my brain on this because when Home comes there's probably going to be some thought (if not any actual action) about Sneasler's Dire Claw and its effective 1/6 chance to just give free Sleep on a switch-in.
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I feel like most Unburden sets will tend to run gunk shot for the immediate power, but poison point sets could be annoying with dire claw spreading status+hex user.
 
pika pal said:
My proposition there was based on the fact that when it comes to a move/ability being uncompetitive across multiple users, there needs to be a point where some amount of human judgement does factor in compared to something simply being stupidly powerful as the crux of its suspecting. It's kind of the opposite of the slippery slope with not letting in knee-capped Ubers (EX: Kyogre without EVs or Mewtwo with a fixed nature or such deliberately absurd hypotheticals): does the move suddenly prove itself competitive vs all the users just because we put it on something that is designed in as inefficient as possible a way to use it? Does Last Respects become a competitive move if it does not make Smeargle OP such that the other two users are banworthy for having otherwise-normal Kits?

Like, this rule if no human-input is done would basically only ever result in stupid Status moves being suspected. Plus if the point of how most suspect/bans are handled is for the sake of simplicity and consistency, is it not more of a headache to have to explain a swath of individual bans vs the ban of a move that makes all-but-1 of the Mons that can learn it a problem?

I also kind of have my brain on this because when Home comes there's probably going to be some thought (if not any actual action) about Sneasler's Dire Claw and its effective 1/6 chance to just give free Sleep on a switch-in.
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I do think you've raised some important points here, but it's important to remember that we don't really have a strong precedent for suspecting moves, whether they are a "stupid status move" (apt description though lol) or otherwise. Banning a move outright is still exceedingly rare. Even in the case of Baton Pass it took many generations of workarounds and individual bans before it was determined that there was really no way to address the degenerate strategies it enabled without banning the move entirely. While preference has generally been given to banning mons over moves, there was really no way to do this without banning so many mons that it would seriously warp the tiering of all usage based tiers. We don't have the same issue here.

I suppose Shed Tail, potentially being inherently uncompetitive, could have the case for being banned simply for that alone. But I do hope this doesn't result in a cascade of offensive moves being put up this way, and tiering shifting to just nerfing mons with limited distribution moves until they settle into whatever tier they fit into with a restricted moveset. You're correct with your examples that these mons' kits could be reasonably dealt with outside of these moves, but we don't evaluate brokenness based on subsets of Pokemon's movesets.
 
ayevon said:
Gonna disagree here. Orthoworm is plenty good enough to faciliate shed tails, and gets hazards and a ground immunity as to not be entirely deadweight on a team (a la the Revival Blessing mons as an example). With Tera still around, the Shed Tail sub + Tera gives you opportunity for two easy free turns. Combine that with mons that abuse things such as booster energy, or block phazing with their abilties, Orthoworm Shed Tail strats are just as uncompetetive as Cyclizar ones. I think the key word here is uncompetetive. Cycilzar is clearly broken becuase of it's ability to Shed Tail ad infinitum, but the ability to baton pass substitutes in one move still facilitates uncompetetive strategies and I think the council would be doing the playerbase a big disservice by overlooking this just because Cyclizar so obviously more broken. There's tons of top ladder teams using Orthoworm Shed Tail over Cyclizar, but the broken strategies they facilitate remain the same.
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if anyone would like the best, most correct opinions 4 months in advance dm me
 
Ast0rga said:
Is it real or meme post?
I'm still able to use Shed Tail and it's also not in the " Players cannot use the following moves: " list
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Takes a couple of hours, but you're probably going to still be able to use until the server resets.

I'm glad Shed Tail is banned, thanks very much for the councils timely and very quick response to the survey (MUCH APPRECIATED!)
 
If there is a problem that i dont speak on it means i truly believe it is broken, hence, no shed tail post, it is self explanatory that a substitute + baton pass is uncompetitive even with a 50% health penalty, unable to be defended even with restriction, it shoulda happened sooner, think i speak on behalf of all council members and community members aswell.

Happy cyclizar building, great utility mon, pivot, spin , knock, speedy, has some cool moves, and may be useful, i def will try to make a good team around it.
 
worm.png


Good bye my friends, I'll miss winning in less than 10 turns with my brain half ON half OFF.
Tho guess it's back to dual screens or Glimmora lead for HO.
So it's only one good bye

Good Bye Champ, thank you for everything wormy boi :Orthworm:
 
No more Shed Tail?

7D1ED14B-EE50-4B6B-8459-2C16F8661411.jpeg


Memes aside I’m very excited to build with Cyclizar. It will probably be one of the best scarfers in the tier. Draco Meteor, Rapid Spin, U-Turn, Overheat, Knock Off, etc sounds like a great pivot option and I’m thankful we’ll have another good Rapid Spin user.

One of the biggest casualties is Roaring Moon, which imo isn’t a very significant threat outside of Shed Tail teams. However, Tera Flying Acrobatics will survive on screens and maybe Choiced sets will become more relevant, which only really exist on sun teams currently.
 
JTD783 said:
One of the biggest casualties is Roaring Moon, which imo isn’t a very significant threat outside of Shed Tail teams. However, Tera Flying Acrobatics will survive on screens and maybe Choiced sets will become more relevant, which only really exist on sun teams currently.
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I disagree a lot with this. Dondozo slipping in viability (super passive into a lot of teams honestly) and Orthworm mostly fading from relevancy now outside specific structures, means there aren't as many super fat stops to it as before. You can still break down certain bulky cores with taunt too, or even incorporate taunt into DD to stifle haze and status attempts. Choice Band is a good offensive pivot and should be used way more outside sun than it gets used... My point is, it's still notable and something you have to respect in the builder.
 
Not that ST is gone, what pokemon will be the most affected by this? Dnite? Roaring Moon? Volcarona? I think those were the main set up sweepers that enjoyed ST.
 
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