The problem with this calc is Garg almost always wants to tera out of its weaknesses.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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The problem with this calc is Garg almost always wants to tera out of its weaknesses.
Flutter Mane in this offensive ghost spam meta would be the definition of too much. It's the reason why Kingambit(while it is a good mon with checks) is S in this meta. Dark stab in a meta where like 3 mons get knock(one being tusk) is invaluable.
u must have forgotten this guy
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 462-546 (114.3 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
not even modest kek
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 308-366 (76.2 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - in case y'all were thinking of covert cloak/scarf dengo
only tera water garg deals with garg and if they tera water then that's a tera wasted
What are currently good stall breakers? I struggle to find ways to break through the unaware cores. I guess Breloom and Meowscarada are good but are there are other good choices? CB Baxcalibur maybe?
Edit: okay I have the craziest idea: Choice Specs Sandy Shocks
2HKO or one hits the unaware walls, Corv, Alomomola, Garg and Hatterne all drop to Shocks. Blissey completely stops it and it does have a bad matchup against Tusk, but still, I think this could work in conjunction with Breloom or Meow
Edit: okay I have the craziest idea: Choice Specs Sandy Shocks
2HKO or one hits the unaware walls, Corv, Alomomola, Garg and Hatterne all drop to Shocks. Blissey completely stops it and it does have a bad matchup against Tusk, but still, I think this could work in conjunction with Breloom or Meow
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You literally said it. CB Bax totally destroys defensive cores, forcing them to Tera at the very least.
the irony of the salt pokem
i think banded dragonite and bax are both quite good. dnite is easier to get on the field and has more overall bulk with multiscale, and can do espeed shenanigans. but NOTHING compares to the power of banded baxcalibur, cause holy fuck he goes wild. eats stall mons for breakfast.
Idk, stall is going to use tera fairy anyway, blocking GR makes Bax kinda easy to deal with if you got a good defensive core.
Calm mind+stored power Hatt can 6-0 stall if the rival tries to play too safe.
here's a different change of pace for questions:
what's one pokemon from gen 9 you wish got into the game sooner? as in baxcalibur being in gen 8, espathra being gen 3, etcetera etcetera.
i dont like hearing what people dislike about the current meta and whatnot, so lets look at something a bit more fun :)
what's one pokemon from gen 9 you wish got into the game sooner? as in baxcalibur being in gen 8, espathra being gen 3, etcetera etcetera.
i dont like hearing what people dislike about the current meta and whatnot, so lets look at something a bit more fun :)
I agree with all of the above, but like I already admit, cloak is suboptimal outside of answering garg.
I've used this set before
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Discharge
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Discharge
This is true, but using a tera to get a surprise kill has been a widely accepted part of this generation. I hate it, but I recognize the problem is tera and not garg.
Furthermore, you can CR (Chilly Reception) into your, for example, scarf meowscarada and then u-turn right back into slowking at very little cost to you just to scout their response. You definitely have room to mess around before committing.
This is true, but not all counterplay can be prediction-free. You have an out, and in this meta, that's all you can really afford anyway.
When I say "yall gotta learn how to play around bulky teams," I am referring to what is imo a pretty well known trend. Less experienced players often struggle to play patiently vs fat teams. I don't want to be condescending, because I was once that person too. Having a sink for passive damage, preserving your wallbreaker, and nowadays learning to force their defensive tera are all important things to keep in mind. I did not intend to be dismissive when I typed the part you quoted.
I still do stand by my belief that garg is not a problem. Tera+garg is a problem, I agree, but that's because tera is the root cause of the issue.
I'll link my previous arboliva analysis, because a lot of what I said is still relevant, but the metagame has definitely changed a lot since then. In the land of AV toxapex and amnesia clodsire, the Sub 3 attacks set isn't as scary as it used to be. However, I believe that all you need to do is run leech seed and you can still perform quite well.
Arboliva @ Leftovers
Ability: Seed Sower
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 220 SpA / 32 SpD / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Tera Blast / Earth Power
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
The given HP and spdef are for living 2 tera water specs hydro steams under the sun from Walking Wake (proto speed)
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 248 HP / 32 SpD Arboliva in Sun: 171-202 (47.6 - 56.2%)
With leftovers+grassy terrain recovery, you will survive 2 max rolls and after a giga drain you'll live a 3rd.
Given speed will let you leech seed AV pex as it switches in and spam sub until it's weakened or they give up and switch. Even if amnesia clodsire walls, you can stay in long enough that they will eventually recover, and they are unlikely to toxic when you are behind a sub, so you can hard switch into your tusk to get some healing and force it out.
I think choice specs is worth another shot too, but even with the downturn of protect rotom-w/protect garg, it is still prediction reliant, and 2 specs leaf storms doesn't even kill av pex:
220+ SpA Choice Specs Arboliva Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 245-290 (80.8 - 95.7%)
As for partners, I think skeledirge is a great ally for the same reasons that ceruledge is. You definitely want something for corv, because it often switches into you, and you're not making progress vs it without spending your tera. Your own helmet relaxed corv can help, and it also provides a check to offensive tusk, as arboliva can only beat defensive tusk. Another cool partner is specs gholdengo, who takes advantage of corv and amoong to fire off disgusting hits. Grassy terrain can also weaken eq's for it and provide some healing. Finally, arboliva can comfortably take advantage of slowking too, so you can partner up with mons that struggle vs slowking such as iron moth, garg, Walking wake, etc. There's one more really cool partner, but I'm keeping that in my back pocket as it may be an RMT in the future
Hisuian Zoroark would have been sick in gen 7 or 8
As generic as it sounds, I would have liked the playstyle of a lot of Paradoxes in previous gens like 7 or 8. Walking Wake for example feels like it would have been what we were trying to balance with Gen 5 Rain, a mon that is nuclear enough to make a playstyle viable but also not so devoid of counterplay to make it take over. I also think some of the Future Paradoxes (absurd ones like Bundle not withstanding) would have curtailed the Tapus a decent amount by virtue of making Terrains an advantage to the opposing player as much as the user: Tapu Koko has to be wary of throwing free-momentum U-Turns out if its Electric Terrain could turn an opposing Iron Valiant into a pseudo-Uber, Iron Moth at a then-great 110 Speed would make them wary with Poison STAB while also tearing into common Bulky mons like Clefable, and the Booster Energy playstyle would heavily punish team members who only make real progress via Knock Off (the infamous Gen 8 Weavile would be checked pretty well by Iron Hands for example).
That said I also think we have quite a few mons this Gen that feel like past-Gen stuff but a bit less obnoxious in execution: Kingambit's ability to blanket check large amounts of the game reminds me of Melmetal, Great Tusk has already been discussed as an alt Lando-T Glue, and Gholdengo feels like a reigned-in version of Gen 6-7 Aegislash (i.e. Flexible with really good typing and longevity, but without the same degree of stifling centralization the Sword-Shield exhibited).
Alright bro, im gonna admit, you killed me with kindness, we frens now
Honestly, on the overall tera discussion, I have mixed feeling
WARNING: NONE OF THIS POST IS FACTUALLY CHECKED, I'm BIASED, PLEASE UNDERSTAND
On one hand, the arguments that
-you get bullshit
-you cannot prepare for everything
-makes stupid mons more stupid
-the power creep generated is too much
It is kinda true, you might like it or not, but all of this has some veracity to it, just playing a bit will land you in situations where "fuck, could have won if it wasn't for that" and also situations where "damm, I was gonna lose if it wasn't for that"
But you know what? Its fucking fun
I know fun is subjective, some people love it, some people don't, some people love gen 7, others gen 8, nothing is written when it comes to fun (except gen 4 my beloved) and I know that fun should not be an argument to consider when we need to consider the state of the meta, but there's some people who like tera, I like tera, I like building it with it in mind, I like having options, I like being able to bring lower tier mons and pull whack shit with it, and I would love for it to stay. Even if it means having to potentially perma lock the ceiling on what is "the most balanced tier possible" because bro, it draws the ratings brother
There are 2 things that I love and hate, how unique can the offensive teams be, and how fair is to play against defense, and while sure, I have my problems with Garganacl, is that it really, pex is not a problem anymore, the 3 unawere trio are balanced. The only thing sad about defense is that when it comes to defog, you only have tflame (corv is ass and I have made up my mind on that front). Sure, I have been emotionally crushed by the stall empire teams, but then I just look at the teambuilder, do some changes to have a better matchup against defense, and then never encounter defense again bro why is my luck like this. And offense had a problem named shed tail, which is gone, and people are now trying different stuff
The more the day passes, the more I'm getting into the "tera at team preview" argument, but for better or worse, there are some compromises to be done, and I hope that at the end of the day, everyone is at peace with what you believe. As for me, I'm gonna sell tissues that day, the economy is kinda bad and the university won't pay itself soooooo uuhhh
These are the only hard pro-tera opinions that have any merit for me, personally.
Like there's no need to try to use logic or try to mental gymnastics around being pro-tera.
Anti-tera side legit has everything.
Srn's original post when tera first dropped and the points therein still haven't been refuted in any meaningful, good-faith capacity.
Basically, Tera is objectively broken, but subjectively fun for many players, especially casuals.
You literally can't prove a subjective opinion wrong so there's really no discourse to be had at this point.
These days, (after some soul searching lol) I'm legit cool with anyone who says, "idc it's fun" I'm like bet, that's a valid opinion king.
Anyway, I spent a week swearing Garg was broken, I lost R1 of that charity tour thanks to this calc:
+3 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Tera Water Garganacl: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's like 1370ish attack coming off STAB and Garg doesn't even need max defense lmao.
These days I get kinda hyped when I see garg cuz it just feels like dead weight.
It doesn't fit on stall.
It doesn't fit on offense.
It loves balance and BO but a good HO rn will just steamroll, idk.
It's still an amazing mon in a lot of ways, but it's not that splashable, and it needs to be used correctly, and often it takes up your tera.
It can be a solid win-con and really shines in certain MU like balance vs balance if their team lacks the moves/items needed.
Either way, it's far, far from broken, especially when compared to mons like King and MU Moth that just cheese wins.
Tera is great because it means I can kill toxapex even harder whenever thundurus-therian comes back to the game
In general SV OU feels like a tier of “wow, this isn’t broken, but damn do I hate playing against it.”
Garg isn’t a problematic mon to the point of needing a ban, but playing against it makes me want to replace the blood in my veins with salt water.
Iron Valiant isn’t broken, I don’t think anyone truly thinks it’s broken, but it is perhaps the most mindfuckery a Pokémon can do bar Mew. If it activates booster energy you wonder if it’s physical or special, if it has x coverage move (stuff like Thunderbolt/Psyshock/SBall et cetera), is it running some niche bullshit (Poison Jab, Energy Ball, Shadow Sneak), is it setup, what tera does it have, et cetera. And if it doesn’t activate booster energy, it’s sort of the same debacle except fuck you it’s sash taunt destiny bond and you just traded your answer to some other special breaker with it.
Kingambit isn’t broken, I don’t think, but losing when you’re up 4-1 because it got an SD and reverse swept you feels terrible.
Tera is the biggest thing in this vein since as fun as it is to use it’s really frustrating to play against. Of course it is also broken, but I don’t think I know a single person who thinks it’s both not broken and doesn’t get frustrated, even slightly, when they lose to some cheap Tera that ran away with a game.
Garg isn’t a problematic mon to the point of needing a ban, but playing against it makes me want to replace the blood in my veins with salt water.
Iron Valiant isn’t broken, I don’t think anyone truly thinks it’s broken, but it is perhaps the most mindfuckery a Pokémon can do bar Mew. If it activates booster energy you wonder if it’s physical or special, if it has x coverage move (stuff like Thunderbolt/Psyshock/SBall et cetera), is it running some niche bullshit (Poison Jab, Energy Ball, Shadow Sneak), is it setup, what tera does it have, et cetera. And if it doesn’t activate booster energy, it’s sort of the same debacle except fuck you it’s sash taunt destiny bond and you just traded your answer to some other special breaker with it.
Kingambit isn’t broken, I don’t think, but losing when you’re up 4-1 because it got an SD and reverse swept you feels terrible.
Tera is the biggest thing in this vein since as fun as it is to use it’s really frustrating to play against. Of course it is also broken, but I don’t think I know a single person who thinks it’s both not broken and doesn’t get frustrated, even slightly, when they lose to some cheap Tera that ran away with a game.
Wasted? I can't imagine terastilizing one of the strongest defensive pokes in the meta into one of the strongest mono defensive types in the game to be a waste of tera. Especially when Garg turns Ghold into set up fodder.
This, water Garg is a top 3 mon after shed tail ban, you see unaware mons on most of the teams so tera volc or dragonite aren't as good rn. I would say that Valiant, Gambit and Garg are the most consistent tera users since they will do something in 99% of the match ups, the rest are more situational.
After nearly 13 years, I'm still not used to people coming on to a site dedicated to finding a balanced competitive metagame and saying "Fuck your ethos, I'm playing a video game."
It’s probably because the anti Tera crowd has a habit of framing the debate as “fun vs. competitiveness” which is not what the pro Tera crowd is arguing for. (Besides, if competitive Pokémon wasn’t fun to at least some capacity, it wouldn’t exist as it does today. Enjoyment is subjective, but it’s important for the health of a community.) I and many others dropped off last gen because even though the meta was relatively balanced, it just was not fun to play.
Posting to say I’ve been having so much fun with the block + ghost type garganacl set.
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Block
- Curse
- Recover
- Salt Cure
people with stall teams who have faced it before might even immediately forfeit when the set is revealed, lol! Rare to see high elo games with forfeits within 3 turns.
just an FYI that team is a joke team with no hazards or hazards removal, and it’s been performing like crazy due to its ability to dismantle both stall and disrupt offense
high voltage did stall it out a little longer with a ghost type alomolola adaptation. Although this comes at a price since the flying type alomolola is better in other circumstances.
Garganacl / Volcarona / Dragonite / Dragapult / Kingambit / Great Tusk are all leagues ahead of the rest of the metagame in terms of viability. Especially gambit and tusk, they’re almost mandatory on a good team.
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Block
- Curse
- Recover
- Salt Cure
people with stall teams who have faced it before might even immediately forfeit when the set is revealed, lol! Rare to see high elo games with forfeits within 3 turns.
just an FYI that team is a joke team with no hazards or hazards removal, and it’s been performing like crazy due to its ability to dismantle both stall and disrupt offense
Meowscarada @ Black Glasses
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick
- Flower Trick
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Block
- Curse
- Recover
- Salt Cure
Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 112 HP / 216 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Quiver Dance
- Morning Sun
- Giga Drain
Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 88 Atk / 168 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- U-turn
Dondozo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Def
Impish Nature
- Wave Crash
- Body Press
- Curse
- Rest
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick
- Flower Trick
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Block
- Curse
- Recover
- Salt Cure
Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 112 HP / 216 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Quiver Dance
- Morning Sun
- Giga Drain
Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 88 Atk / 168 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- U-turn
Dondozo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Def
Impish Nature
- Wave Crash
- Body Press
- Curse
- Rest
high voltage did stall it out a little longer with a ghost type alomolola adaptation. Although this comes at a price since the flying type alomolola is better in other circumstances.
Garganacl / Volcarona / Dragonite / Dragapult / Kingambit / Great Tusk are all leagues ahead of the rest of the metagame in terms of viability. Especially gambit and tusk, they’re almost mandatory on a good team.
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How far you think Typhlosion will fall this Gen? Personally, I think it'll be in RU.
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