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However, I also think that if a pokemon is obviously broken with an X move, that's share with other mons that also are broken with that move, maybe it's worth taking the time to evaluate the possibility of at least thinking if banning the move would allow them to be fine. But also, that begs the question if that pokemon would even bring anything to the table. Would the ban of this move allow for the healthy use of this pokemon in the context of the meta?
I think that is an extremely slippery slope to be treading on and should really be not be entertained when it comes to generally distributed moves. Because it is extremely hard to justify what makes a move "broken" in most contexts. Using Close Combat as an example, it is a 120 BP move with 100% accuracy that has absolutely made certain mons considerably stronger in gen 8 and 9 when the move became a TM. Hypothetically, people could say things such as "I feel like I am forced to run a Ghost type all the time because most pokemon that only resist the attack get coverage moves for that type. We should limit this move because lots of pokemon have access to it and there are still lots of other strong Fighting type attacks these pokemon have access to." This example is an absolute shit argument, but you know there would be someone to say exactly this and get a small following.
What other's consider broken may not even have to deal with offense, but what the move brings to the table. Pivot Moves like Volt Switch, U-Turn, and Flip Turn all provide a powerful momentum options that can either allow for a fast mon to switch into an immunity or a slow mon to sponge an attack and bring in an unscathed answer. Volcarona is the undisputed best abuser of Quiver Dance in the history of pokemon, but saying BECAUSE it's the best abuser of the move it shouldn't be allowed to run it is nonsense. You may as well just ban the moth at that point. And we can't say Quiver Dance is Broken, because Pheromosa (yes I know its not in this gen) has access to the move but is to frail to ever use it.
We have had move specific bans in the past in various tiers and some were eventually overturned. Swagger is one example and Aurora veil in lower tiers. Moves like Double Team and Minimize are one thing as these moves simply promote unskilled set up and often create scenarios where the opponent is just unluckier that the evasion user, so it makes sense for moves like that to go. Shed Tail and Baton pass were banned because they created to much of an overwhelming presence with many different possibilities and little counterplay.
In short, opening the debate of X move is broken on Y Pokemon so we should ban the move but retain the pokemon doesn't really make for a true definition of competitive play. Because someone will complain priority is broken, or recovery is broken, and then all you get left with is a few neutered pokemon with arbitrary moves missing for a variety of reasons.
In terms of water moves, think it's a lot more likely Samurott-H runs Hydro Pump, mainly to hit the Tusk OHKO, doesn't require too many SpA EV's either.
96 SpA Samurott-Hisui Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Though I feel it has several moves to pick, between Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet for priority, Ceaseless Edge and Knock Off for utility, a water STAB, and likely some coverage like Sacred Sword. All this not counting status moves and set up like Taunt or Swords Dance.
252+ Atk Samurott-Hisui Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 162-192 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 350-414 (109 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Samurott always loses the lead match up unless you tera, can't KO Tusk and get spikes up at the same time, and if you use sash, attack first and then use Ceaseless Edge Tusk can just spin. IDK, Meowscarada still looks like the best option for spikes lead unless there is a Hatt in the other side.
I doubt tusk would switch into a samurott since it would take big damage either way and since its faster assuming tusk is offensive then samurott just gets revenge killed; imo razor shell is just infinitely better than pump on samurott-h
on the topic of ceaseless edge debate, against one samurott-h hazards team in an OU room home tourney I found going boots mold breaker hawlucha with defog roost flying press and u turn with defense and HP
going 96 EVs in speed on lucha and just dumping the rest on hp and defense pretty much lets hawlucha tank 3 razor shells
(252 Atk Choice Band Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Hawlucha: 153-181 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO)
u turn for pivot and flying press over cc/hjk because I found having that dual typing lets it deal with tusk, breloom, volc etc. whilst still hitting dark types (especially gambit) for big damage
flying press doesn't OHKO tho it does like 75-80 so use CC if you want
I think when samurott-h comes out there's gonna be ting lu samurott spam with gholdengo so I reckon having this tank hawlucha set with mold breaker defog is gonna be really nice into that meta
The set if you wanna test it out. OU room hosts Pokemon home tours quite often and if u do wanna play in it u will play vs so much hazard spam lol
Honestly, depending on the amount of hazard removal distribution and the overall sets, I think the days of running shitty mix sets just to lure tusk are finally over, this could also mean that tusk being less forced via utility, can pursue support or funky tools like fucking choice band with no knock off or spin, or stuff like trick room offensive mon and whatever, it has a lot of tools that haven't been explored yet, so not having to run rocks, spin, and or knock off as much could potentially lead to some wild fun stuff
Only thing forbidden is tera flying tera blast to lure chesnaught, i swear to god if somebody comes to me with that shit im gonna---
I doubt tusk would switch into a samurott since it would take big damage either way and since its faster assuming tusk is offensive then samurott just gets revenge killed; imo razor shell is just infinitely better than pump on samurott-h
on the topic of ceaseless edge debate, against one samurott-h hazards team in an OU room home tourney I found going boots mold breaker hawlucha with defog roost flying press and u turn with defense and HP
going 96 EVs in speed on lucha and just dumping the rest on hp and defense pretty much lets hawlucha tank 3 razor shells
(252 Atk Choice Band Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Hawlucha: 153-181 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO)
u turn for pivot and flying press over cc/hjk because I found having that dual typing lets it deal with tusk, breloom, volc etc. whilst still hitting dark types (especially gambit) for big damage
flying press doesn't OHKO tho it does like 75-80 so use CC if you want
I think when samurott-h comes out there's gonna be ting lu samurott spam with gholdengo so I reckon having this tank hawlucha set with mold breaker defog is gonna be really nice into that meta
The set if you wanna test it out. OU room hosts Pokemon home tours quite often and if u do wanna play in it u will play vs so much hazard spam lol
Here for the rebirth of Lucha, he's been very underrated this gen, hell he's even seeing very low in usage in UU when in previous gens it was UUBL or OU, at least he's not jailed this time around.
Fun fact: The only good item on h-zoro is sash (and arguably drop nasty plot for focus blast). Specs hits hard but you're dead to one hit 99% of the time and you want to switch moves if you can't switch in
In terms of water moves, think it's a lot more likely Samurott-H runs Hydro Pump, mainly to hit the Tusk OHKO, doesn't require too many SpA EV's either.
96 SpA Samurott-Hisui Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Hamurott actually is more likely to be used in the midgame than on lead, having a Gholdengo check is really good and then you also get FREE progress no matter what
You use Hydro to make sure Tusk never comes in on you without having to take a risk, or if it is anything but max speed Tusk you do just outspeed (Rott 85 vs Tusk 87)
Fun fact: The only good item on h-zoro is sash (and arguably drop nasty plot for focus blast). Specs hits hard but you're dead to one hit 99% of the time and you want to switch moves if you can't switch in
Here for the rebirth of Lucha, he's been very underrated this gen, hell he's even seeing very low in usage in UU when in previous gens it was UUBL or OU, at least he's not jailed this time around.
Honestly, I can see everyone using boots before they start to run Lucha. Mons like Heatran, Lando and Zapdos which will be switching a lot probably won't want to wait until Hawlucha gets to defog, while it also will add another ice weakness which will be a big deal because ice coverage will be a must with the home update.
No theorymon: Every Pokemon with Shed Tail is broken and wouldn't be without shed tail. Ok, but this is the same for Urshifu and Wicked Blow.
Theorymon: A lot of Pokemon would be broken if they got shed tail. Ok, but King Gambit and Roaring Moon would be broken if they got Wicked Blow.
Some weaker Pokemon would not be broken if they got Wicked Blow. Ok, but some NFEs would not be broken if they got Shed Tail.
No theorymon: Every Pokemon with Shed Tail is broken and wouldn't be without shed tail. Ok, but this is the same for Urshifu and Wicked Blow.
Theorymon: A lot of Pokemon would be broken if they got shed tail. Ok, but King Gambit and Roaring Moon would be broken if they got Wicked Blow.
Some weaker Pokemon would not be broken if they got Wicked Blow. Ok, but some NFEs would not be broken if they got Shed Tail.
Obviously moves are only as broken as the mons that they are on, but generally speaking, there's a much lower bar for status moves to accomplish their intended uncompetitive effect. This is kind of getting into "Oh but what if we allowed level 70 Mewtwo with an item that doesn't boost its offensive stats" levels of discussion.
I have been messing with this meme set, crits are funny but nothing else, I have heard that some people who have tried scarf have claimed that's also ass. Has someone tried specs?
Except it's not. Wicked Blow is a powerful move, but is extremely match up dependent and doesn't enable set up sweepers to clean up the game. Comparing a support move to a pure damage move is nonsense. Shed tail interacts with the player while Wicked Blow interacts with the opponent, so that makes for a bad argument. And let the record show, Orthworm and Cyclizar in a vaccum are not broken even with shed tail, but the opportunity shed tail provides has so much potential power that these mons are worth running. If either doesnt have a good target to pass shed tail too or even no target, they are useless relatively useless except in specific match ups. Wicked Blow isn't so good a move that I would click it on a grimmsnarl even if I had a Choice Band and was Tera Dark.
Except it's not. Wicked Blow is a powerful move, but is extremely match up dependent and doesn't enable set up sweepers to clean up the game. Comparing a support move to a pure damage move is nonsense. Shed tail interacts with the player while Wicked Blow interacts with the opponent, so that makes for a bad argument. And let the record show, Orthworm and Cyclizar in a vaccum are not broken even with shed tail, but the opportunity shed tail provides has so much potential power that these mons are worth running. If either doesnt have a good target to pass shed tail too or even no target, they are useless relatively useless except in specific match ups. Wicked Blow isn't so good a move that I would click it on a grimmsnarl even if I had a Choice Band and was Tera Dark.
Fun fact: The only good item on h-zoro is sash (and arguably drop nasty plot for focus blast). Specs hits hard but you're dead to one hit 99% of the time and you want to switch moves if you can't switch in
By leading, you get in for free. You can bluff a physical attacker or hazard setter. They go to their physical wall and/or hazard response, you get a free hit, and now they're forced to switch again.
The downside is that your opponent can correctly guess that you're leading with Zoro H, rather than whatever mon you're bluffing, and kill you... but that's extremely risky on their part.
Not great against fast U-Turn leads... but neither is sash.
Shed Tail is a problem because it so effortlessly gives set up to already dangerous pokemon in a way that mitigates risk. This is especially notable in endgame scenarios.
Wicked Blow is nowhere comparable. It's just strong, but strong BP is generally dependant on the Mon that gets it. UrshifuS wasn't even broken purely because of Wicked Blow. The strong offensive typing, good enough speed, huge attack and complementary high BP stab in CC were all big contributors.
That UrshifuS was broken because it was too strong, just fast enough, and difficult to deal with. Wicked Blow alone did not break UrshifuS. shed Tail alone broken Orthworm and Cyclizar.
Can we please fucking stop with the semantics on this shitty ass urshifu discussion
The move is strong, the ability is busted, the stabs are good, just like garganacl
it was banned in gen 8 because defensive teams needed pex and mandibuzz and abuse 50/50, and offense was fucked because Sucker Punch, its all part of the complete package, we don't need semantic discussion for this
Besides, Chesnaught can't even handle him
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 187-222 (49.2 - 58.4%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
What does this say to you all?
Anyways, lets change topic
Iron Jugulis @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Hurricane
- Taunt
- Flamethrower
I have been recently experimenting with Iron Jugulis as a stallbreaker, because people were saying it could shut down stall pretty nicely, and to be honest, this is probably THE_______Pokémon OF ALL TIME
I have never seen something so MID, so decently functional yet so unspectacular at the same time
So, any whack shit you guys been using, I'm also using arboliva from time to time, but I haven't got enough data to say if I like it or not, so I'm still testing
So, any whack shit you guys been using, I'm also using arboliva from time to time, but I haven't got enough data to say if I like it or not, so I'm still testing
as one of the resident “whack shit” users here, this is a fun set I have been using on balance
fuck we ball
Toedscruel @ Leftovers
Ability: Mycelium Might
Tera Type: Fire / Fairy / I don’t fucking know
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD (unoptimized)
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Earth Power
- Rapid Spin
- Giga Drain
there are many positives to using toedscruel, for one it has a pretty high 100 base speed tier decent hp + a solid 120 spdef. earth power and giga drain are of course reliable stabs, ground and grass coverage is pretty cool for this tier. Being able to spore safely into and is always nice. The latter is also the tiers main spin blocker and offensive sets don’t want to take chip from ep (even coming off from a low base 80 spa). Also serves as a supreme switch into which can often gain momentum/chip against the significant ground types in the tier, except when facing toedscruel
this can also serve as a sneak peak at an upcoming ou project/post, a collection of heat teams with brief descriptions so I can fit a bunch of dumb shit into it, coming soon…
is a disease in this current metagame with little to no cure. Salt Cure deals 1/8 max HP each turn; 1/4 on Steel, Water. This move has allowed Garganacl to effectively make an item that would have no usage without its presence actually have usage. That item would be Covert Cloak. Covert Cloak allows your Pokemon to ignore secondary damage Salt Cure deals. Covert Cloak isn't really practical as a measure towards Garganacl in the current metagame. Earlier in the SV metagame when Garganacls would generally only be Stealth Rock Protect Wall or Iron Defense Sweeper, it was okay for Covert Cloak Gholdengo or Toxapex to be viewed as a countermeasure as they had reliable recovery along with the ability to beat Gargancl 1v1. This was enough to keep it at bay for majority of SV OU, with it having some guest appearances on surveys & on the radar. It got multiple 3's not enough to support a suspect. Reasonably so, this tier has had larger issues, and considering Garganacls mediocre usage along with mediocre win rate in tour play, it would be hard to justify focusing on it. With monsters such as Palafin, Chien Pao, and Espahtra plaguing the tier it's tough for a rock to stand out.
Shed Tail no longer being in the metagame and its ban has been the catalyst that has led to a rock being a plague on the tier. It isn't solely Shed Tail's ban though that has led us to the point we're at now. The metagame has evolved where Rocky Helmet Corviknight is needed over Cloak, Assault Vest Toxapex is needed over Cloak, Choice Scarf/Air Balloon Gholdengo is needed over Cloak. The Pokemon listed are able to help your team with multiple threats with the items listed, whereas Covert Cloak primarily only helps with Gargancl. With Shed Tail removed the metagame has slowed down from its fast-paced overwhelming nature, overwhelming Gargancl is arguably the best way to take it down, the longer the game lasts the more opportunities it has to salt cure its way to victory.
Gargancl currently has 2 extremely viable Terastallization types, Water
and Fairy
. These 2 different types make it generally quite difficult to prep for both forms with Amoongus being the only OU Pokemon that can handle both 1v1 and even then at times it needs Covet Cloak to handle properly instead of running a more conventional item such as Heavy Duty Boots or Red Card. Now, you're able to pressure Gargancl with strong moves, force it to waste its recovers, attempt to hazard stack so you wear it down over time, and knock off its leftovers to put it on its heels...all these things are easier said than done and it may already be too late in the match by the time you accomplish. This also doesn't account for the fact offensive teams generally can't afford to take its wearing down throughout the game and still be able to handle its teammates. I feel a lot of people view Gargancl as a singularity entity and don't take into consideration what it's able to accomplish that results in the point we play this game in the first place, a W.
Water Gargancl is able to take advantage of the lack of strong electric and grass types and even if the limited options choose to switch in they have to deal with the reality that each time they switch in they could lose a big chunk of their health along with generally just forcing it to switch out as competent players are switching out from getting hit with a super effective. There is also the reality that currently most of the "viable" grass and electric types in the metagame don't have a good place in the metagame. You could make the case that shows a larger problem with the current landscape but this conversation is about a rock. Water Garg is able to run Physically Defensive and Specially Defensive based sets that are able to curse up on a majority of the metagame. The combination of Salt Cure + Earthquake leaves very few ways to handle this Pokemon. Popular counterplay to this combination is safely getting in Hydregion to sub up on it and abuse Garganacls position in the game due to Hydregions levitate making it immune to Earthquake and natural bulk allowing it to sub up on Salt Cure safely. There is also locking it into recover/salt cure with an encore from Pokemon like Scream Tail, Iron Valiant, & if you're desperate Azumarill. As I mentioned hazard stacking against Gargcancl teams (pray they don't have court change) is a popular counterplay method with the help of Ting Lu Whirlwinding although it has to get worn down by Salt Cure each time it attempts this while also handling what other threats Garganacls teammates may be.
Fairy Gargancl is another fantastic typing that takes advantage of the lack of fairy typing in the tier. A lot of teams are equipped to simply take down fairy types that lack reliable recovery not a rock with 100 HP, 130 Defense, and 90 Special Defense. It is able to take advantage of the amazing typing fairy that gives you, immunity to strong dragon types and of course resisting the power dark typing that has plagued SV from the very start. Fairy Garg is generally more so a defensive wall than the sweeper Water can become but it still can be as overwhelming. Fairy Garg is able to handle crazy threats such as Dragapult, Baxcalibur, Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, & more. It is able completely shut down current offensive archetypes once your opponent's generally easily worn down countermeasure has been removed from the game. It is able to set rocks along with cursing on removers such as great tusk making it impossible for it to remove the hazards set and ultimately if staying in losing the 1v1 battle. Countermeasures for this set are generally the same as mentioned above for Water but due to its Fairy typing in this case Gholdengo and Kingambit can also handle the job. Now for Gholdengo if it runs covet cloak it is a fantastic countermeasure for this set, if it lacks it, things get tricky. Kingambit doesn't run covet cloak generally (and if it does kinda shows the problem) as it's usually in the sweeper role or check role so you'll see it running items such as leftovers, lum, air balloon, etc all of which essentially don't prevent it from losing 25% of its health just to handle a rock.
is also arguably keeping this tier together. It is able to handle most notably Dragapult which arguably would be on radar/surveys if it weren't for Garganacl's presence in the tier. It has been a notable Pokemon in keeping the weather Sun in check and to a lesser extent Rain. It is able to handle Sun threats such as Walking Wake's powerful Hydro Steams with Water and Fairy is able to handle Great Tusk, Brute Bonnet, and Roaring Moon while also being able to pivot into Walking Wake's powerful Dracos.
Garganacl is able to break down powerful balances like the Shark 6 while also shutting down popular stalls with its block set preventing their counterplay to it being Pivoting around. Garganacl is able to be a consistent wall in this metagame and be productive in a majority of match ups where you rarely feel you're playing from behind Teraing early with it. Garganacl is able to generally handle the unaware monsters of Dondozo and Skelidirge with Salt Cure wearing down their recovery or at worse forcing a tera from them. Garganacl not being able to be statused makes it a nice switch into Willo's and Toxic's, along with it having such phenomenal bulk that even if your opponent predicts your switch in to avoid the status by attacking you can easily recover back the health loss.
Garganacl Water is generally able to handle OU threats such as:
Gholdengo
Ceruledge
Cinderace
Dondozo
Gholdengo
Greninja
Iron Moth
Walking Wake
Skelidirge
Garganacl Fairy is generally able to handle OU threats such as:
Baxcalibur
Dondozo
Dragapult
Dragonite
Garchomp
Water Gargancal
Great Tusk
Meowscarda
Roaring Moon
With each ban and with home on the horizon the OU Metagame is headed in the right direction in my opinion. I simply believe there are misconceptions about how "easy" it is to handle Garganacl and that an irrelevant item in the grand scheme of things doesn't solve this Pokemon. I'm sure players will figure out how to adapt to the current problem that Garganacl presents and we shall see what the solution is. The goal of this post isn't to advocate for a Garganacl suspect, I've listed simply what stands out to me with its presence in the metagame and how the meta could start to revolve around a rock.
Iron Jugulis @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Hurricane
- Taunt
- Flamethrower
I have been recently experimenting with Iron Jugulis as a stallbreaker, because people were saying it could shut down stall pretty nicely, and to be honest, this is probably THE_______Pokémon OF ALL TIME
I have never seen something so MID, so decently functional yet so unspectacular at the same time
So, any whack shit you guys been using, I'm also using arboliva from time to time, but I haven't got enough data to say if I like it or not, so I'm still testing
I actually think Jugulus is an underrated rain wall breaker with choice specs. Good stab combo and you can use uturn to pivot on bad match ups.
Iron Jugulis @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Hurricane
- Hydro Pump
- U-Turn
You could probably slap knock off over hydro if you want to cripple switch ins like RotomW, Pex, Kingambit, and Toxapex if you don't need the coverage of hydro. Alternatively, perhaps you could use it with Booster Energy to sweep lategame on rain too. Jug has some really interesting qualities and I feel it has a small, justifiable niche in the tier.
Thank u bro
I have done many anti garganacl post, and I'm glad more people are joining the cause
this fucking rock is causing this much discussion, and you lads just toss it aside because "bro just put cover cloak" or "just use sub" or "just learn to play", its time to admit that whether ban worthy or not, its a problem to acount for, in builder and battle. And a top 3 titan, alongside tusk and kingambit, really fucking goat post
Anyways, lets change topic
Iron Jugulis @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Hurricane
- Taunt
- Flamethrower
I have been recently experimenting with Iron Jugulis as a stallbreaker, because people were saying it could shut down stall pretty nicely, and to be honest, this is probably THE_______Pokémon OF ALL TIME
I have never seen something so MID, so decently functional yet so unspectacular at the same time
So, any whack shit you guys been using, I'm also using arboliva from time to time, but I haven't got enough data to say if I like it or not, so I'm still testing
it tries its best. Sometimes it gets up 3 layers and Gholdengo spinblocks and then something like Scarf Meowscarada or specs Dragapult no longer can be switched into since everything drops after spikes.
Sometimes it does literally nothing. Still my goat mon though <333 love
set:
Knoll (Sandy Shocks) @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
is out, it's kinda ass on the grand scheme of things
we ball
and 
is always nice. The latter is also the tiers main spin blocker and offensive sets don’t want to take chip from ep (even coming off from a low base 80 spa). Also serves as a supreme switch into 
which can often gain momentum/chip against the significant ground types in the tier, except when facing toedscruel
