Hazards are not inherently a problem, they have counterplay. Gholdengo just removes one huge part of it. Caveat: I don't think Gholdengo hazard stack is problematic.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
Corv can't even do anything when Gholdengo comes in, at best Corv could take Gholdengos hits. Although nasty plot easily overwhelms Corv, and not much can switch into Gholdengo, so Corv has to u-turn out so another mon can revenge kill it.
While the idea of banning spikes technically works, it's just a round-a-bout way of dealing with the issue just to keep Gholdengo in the tier. It's much easier to get rid of Gholdengo so we have more removal options that aren't threatened by a single mon. Our viable spin blockers other than Gholdengo are annihilape and pult, two mons that are far easier to put pressure on and lack the insane utility Gholdengo has that basically allows it to solo balance. Gholdengo invalidates removal options while being a mon incredibly hard to switch into while banning spikes is just getting rid of part of Gholdengo teams gameplan.
Any ghost can block rapid spin but how many can block defog too? An issue people have with Gholdengo is that it can switch into both freely since depending on the set Goldengo can handle both the mons with spin as well as defog.
Guys there's literally a host of spinners and a defogger currently in the game that force out Gholdengo. Torkoal, Iron Treads, Great Tusks, and a Talonflame defogger (Granted, probably never being used) all can win this fight. Glimmora can even threaten Gholdengo from switching to block Mortal Spin if it wanted to.
There's also still an item that literally invalidates all this.
And lastly you all have refused to accept the Mormon Mouse itself, Mausfeld, who yet sanctifies the ground beneath their many feet.
There are options. There is also a refusal to use said options.
There's also still an item that literally invalidates all this.
And lastly you all have refused to accept the Mormon Mouse itself, Mausfeld, who yet sanctifies the ground beneath their many feet.
There are options. There is also a refusal to use said options.
The big issue with using all of the spinners that you had mentioned is that they lose to the two most powerful mons in the tier: Palafin and Iron Bundle.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Actually, why are we even talking about Gholdengo when we still have the issues of Iron Bundle, Palafin, Roaring Moon, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Shed Tail, Revival Blessing eventually, possibly Iron Valiant and Great Tusk, and potentially Terastallization in general to worry about?
Gholdengo is a frustrating thing because it should be an extremely good but manageable presence if we had some of the gen 8 deffogers (lando, zapdos, torn). I wouldn't wanna be the one who has to make a tiering decision. (also inb4 definat annihilape if/when gholdengo goes)
In the mean time though, everyone tusk/treads should be running knock (or at least ice spinner i guess) to pop balloons. I think phys def Iron Tusk is such an insanely good mon right now. Boots seems kind of underutilize right now somehow as well, Dragapult and Chi-Yu with boots are insanely good ways to punish Gholdengo after a Corviknight u-turn.
In the mean time though, everyone tusk/treads should be running knock (or at least ice spinner i guess) to pop balloons. I think phys def Iron Tusk is such an insanely good mon right now. Boots seems kind of underutilize right now somehow as well, Dragapult and Chi-Yu with boots are insanely good ways to punish Gholdengo after a Corviknight u-turn.
Boots, which of course if you're running Gholdengo, you're committing to some level of hazard wincon.
oh I thought you were going to say something constructive or something, being forced to run 6 boots pokemon because you just have to fucking accept hazards are going to stay up does not sound healthy at all!
also nice 3 mons OHKO'd by Gholdengo lol
Do you not understand the relationship between a spinner and a spinblocker on which has to switch in? Because I can spell it out:
A spin blocker needs to SWITCH IN to the spinner. Not the other way around.
Gholdengo can run air balloon to switch into Great Tusk stabs so it would always have to go for knock off(or whichever it's four move would be) and Glimmora is usually used as a suicide lead so it's probally not in the game for long. Torkoal and Iron Treads could have a better chance at threating Gholdengo but they aren't prefect. Torkoal could be a hindrance to a team if the opponent has past mons (like Great Tusk) and it's not too popular. Iron Treads might be the best spinner against Gholdengo since it's a good mon overall but Gholdengo could wear Treads down to have another mon to revenge kill and keep up hazards.
okay so air balloon gholdengo forces you to play 50/50's just to pop the balloon and Torkoal only fits on a specific teamstyle anyway? The pool of hazard removers is already microscopic why would we keep the Pokemon that completely shits on all of them
Because Goldengo's ability to block hazard removal could be a bigger issue later on, yes there more clearly domaining part of the tier right now but that doesn't mean Goldengo should be ignored.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I have it on good authority that Zapdos, Lando and Tornadus are all coming back once Home support drops, so it really just depends on whether this “Home transfers remove all moves from past games” leak was BS or not (which I still think it very well could be, since there is literally no way to know whether it’s true or not and anyone claiming to know is lying).
Typing checks do not really matter in this Gen. Yes, in theory those are good against Gholdengo... until it terastalizes into any random type and changes its weaknesses entirely.
The problem is that, even base Gholdengo is problematic to deal with. You can't use Poison/Toxic due to typing, can't directly Status it due to ability. Heck, it even blocks phasing moves (I wanted to remove it, so I tried a Maschiff with Roar before I realized how his ability really worked), which is especially a problem is said Gholdengo is boosting his stats D:
Because 'shits on all of them' is a hell of a way to put it especially when that '50/50' is "does gholdengo want to eat 75%+ of its health bar to a knock off on an expected switch". And if you lose that bet to Gholdengo coming in, you're pivoting out to play the game again. It's exactly one mon that is causing this at all, which conveniently there also happens to be a mechanic introduced this generation that helps you obliterate specific counters on mons that may otherwise struggle. I do not think Gholdengo, being basically the only viable hazard protection tool, will be able to successfully accomplish that job when it again is the ONLY one. Especially not as we optimize teams down... Just dark tera and this thing dies every time to great tusk for example.
Like... this thing is having to be a bulky pivot into mons with super effective moves on it. It isn't getting to threaten natively, and it gets outsped by the one it can nearly one-shot.
Yes. And the spinners can do that back, as stated. And unless Gholdengo is keeping his ghost this discussion becomes irrelevant. And type change STILL will not benefit you when the spin blocker has to come in to the hit, and you can't type change until turn start, after the move by the spinner was used. In this case, Tera is a far more spinner-favored mechanic.
he's definitely at least uu
alright so before i tilted to hell and back i got to top 100 which was cool so now im gonna talk about shit
WHAT NEEDS TO GO
should i even talk about tera itself? its only slightly less brainless than dynamax, and thats sayin smth.
- broken, bu taunt is a brainless set and you should abuse it immediately. this pokemon curbstomps offense and most balances so easily its not even funny. tera water is nuclear, and ive tried shit like tera steel even to make mincemeat of broken #2:
- broken. the only reason you beat this thing is either through rkills or it missing hydro pump. ive seen games where its just an iron bundle on each side coming in after a ko from their own iron bundle. it has vertsatility via taunt/ flip turn too, just in case you think it can't mess with you more than it already is.
- behold, mega weavile. its probably gonna be broken AFTER the first two get banned, but even so, its still annoying as hell. sucker punch sets are particularly heinous if you tera dark after an SD, because palafin is dropping in one sucker, and everything else gets bombed by its brutal ice attacks and sacred sword.
MISC. MENACES TO SOCIETY
- scarf goes absolutely crazy because this thing basically has a specs on at all times, and its a ghost resist as well, which helps w dpult and gold man. unless you're thudding into hard stall you're almost never in danger to click dpulse/overheat (barring priority mons ofc) vs most mons. ive been going tera water just for the mirror and havent tried specs or np but they're likely ohko machines. if only that speed tier was better. cant believe 100 is middling nowadays.
- THE GOAT. this mon is so effective on offense its almost mandatory imo. faster than club penguin? check. beats BU dolphin? check. spinblocker? check. it does everything and does it well.
- also crazy. multiscale goes stupid, and tera normal espeed is OU's ekiller. nine times out of ten the only thing keeping this down is air balloon gholdengo, but if the scale is up? gg. easy.
- hazard stack all over your ladder? its probably his fault. air balloon is one thing, but scarf is super good, since this thing resists everything and even has trick. its like they created this mon to be the perfect offensive juggernaut. sr resist, coverage, trick, recover, nasty plot... literally its only flaw is the middling speed tier. btw try tera fighting to cheese sucker mons.
OTHER GOOD THINGS:
- this thing is on nearly every team and for a reason. its one of the only, only spinners that scares off golden man, and it has ridiculous amounts of set versatility. chien pao giving you trouble? try a yache berry. flying types doin the dash on you? ice spinner. need to pop that balloon while smacking gholdengo? knock off. tera types help as well, too. need to bust up pdef corviknight? tera fighting cc.
- supreme overlord makes this mon beyond crazy, especially w teras like fairy or even pure dark. have fun clicking sucker vs anything faster (spoiler alert: unless its valiant, you're dying)
- quad resisting sucker punch is nice, but i think the only worthwhile set is specs or cm. SD suffers cataclysmic levels of 4MSS. you want sd, cc spirit break, but also zen headbutt, shadow sneak, knock etc.
- idk chat...he do be kinda passive...
MONS THAT MAKE ME SEETHE( most of them beat my ass)
- this salt man-no-salt THING is probably one of the most annoying tera abusers. it has recovery. it has bulk. it has an effective ghost resist. and MOST EGRIGIOUSLY...a move where it chops off 1/4 health water/steel mons in tandem with 1/8 on all other mons. its the most irritiating id+bp mon and probably the biggest anti-cheese mons i see on ladder.
- another super bulky pokemon, but this time it blocks spin, and also hits ludicrously hard. i suspect blunder's ladder peak video may have to do with its rise on the ladder, but i'll give it the credit it deserves. rage fist is incredible on a mon with such lasting power, especially given that it runs a nasty bulk up set. idk if people run either taunt or rest last slot, but if i had to choose, i'd go taunt.
- donbozo. this mon is an exception to the rule because every time i see this mon it gets drain punched to death by the palafin its supposed to beat unless it wastes tera, but good luck having a reason to waste that unless you're running hard stall with clodsire and friends. donbozo.
WHAT NEEDS TO GO
should i even talk about tera itself? its only slightly less brainless than dynamax, and thats sayin smth.
- behold, mega weavile. its probably gonna be broken AFTER the first two get banned, but even so, its still annoying as hell. sucker punch sets are particularly heinous if you tera dark after an SD, because palafin is dropping in one sucker, and everything else gets bombed by its brutal ice attacks and sacred sword.MISC. MENACES TO SOCIETY
- THE GOAT. this mon is so effective on offense its almost mandatory imo. faster than club penguin? check. beats BU dolphin? check. spinblocker? check. it does everything and does it well. - also crazy. multiscale goes stupid, and tera normal espeed is OU's ekiller. nine times out of ten the only thing keeping this down is air balloon gholdengo, but if the scale is up? gg. easy.OTHER GOOD THINGS:
- quad resisting sucker punch is nice, but i think the only worthwhile set is specs or cm. SD suffers cataclysmic levels of 4MSS. you want sd, cc spirit break, but also zen headbutt, shadow sneak, knock etc.MONS THAT MAKE ME SEETHE( most of them beat my ass)
I find these debates around Gholdengo to be quite strange. Isn't it healthy to have a series of counterplay chains? You have counters to hazards like removal and the rare Magic Bounce. You have one pokemon in OU that is good that blocks multiple types of removal instead. And then you have counterplay options for that, despite what some people on here seem to think. Just don't mindlessly slap a passive Corviknight on your team expecting it to be the be all end all to hazard stack. It should be better for the meta that it's more complex than that now.
I also don't get the fixation on Corvinight needing to be the answer to everything. Other hazard removers are better suited to deal with Gholdengo. If it's that problematic to your team, use a remover that doesn't have that weakness. Or if you wanted to be tricky, you could bait Gholdengo with a Power Trip set or something. Gholdengo mainly counters the overly passive Corvinight sets. I don't see why it's a problem when there is plenty of other routes you can go with teambuilding. I've used both Corviknight and Gholdengo and Corv is still honestly fine if your team has enough other mons to threaten Gholdengo.
Furthermore, why are certain people talking about the limited Defog options without also talking about the increase in spinners? The Paradox Donphan mons in particular are both really good right now. Balloon also doesn't last the whole match. Since they have to switch into you to block your hazard clear, you can force it to pop fairly easily. People complaining about Gholdengo changing typing aren't acknowledging that A. this comes at the opportunity cost of generally bigger offensive threats and B. all non ghost type changes no longer block Rapid Spin and it stays that way for the rest of the match.
Another thing I don't understand about the hazard stacking complaining is it's fairly easy to make your teams less vulnerable to the hazards. Boots are better with less Knock Off in the meta. There are plenty of good poison types to soak up T-Spikes. How long in OU has it been where nearly every team has at least one Ground and one Steel type? There are also a lot of of good fighting types. It's really not hard to make 2/3rds to half your team resist rocks and have another pokemon with Heavy Duty Boots. And good Flying types are also common. While they are weak or sometimes neutral to rocks, they are immune to the other hazards. It's really not hard to build a team that really isn't as bothered about hazards.
And for those of us still working with teams that are vulnerable to certain hazards or hazard stacking, as I myself often do, that's the risk you take. You simply have to take that into consideration when you are making your team. But this is the way it has always been. Like I've been experiencing a lot with offensive Talonflame sets, so I often keep a backup anti-hazard measure and build the team with Gholdengho in mind. And wouldn't you know it, Gholdengo isn't the problem with my teams. It's other unrelated stuff. But I digress.
I also don't get the fixation on Corvinight needing to be the answer to everything. Other hazard removers are better suited to deal with Gholdengo. If it's that problematic to your team, use a remover that doesn't have that weakness. Or if you wanted to be tricky, you could bait Gholdengo with a Power Trip set or something. Gholdengo mainly counters the overly passive Corvinight sets. I don't see why it's a problem when there is plenty of other routes you can go with teambuilding. I've used both Corviknight and Gholdengo and Corv is still honestly fine if your team has enough other mons to threaten Gholdengo.
Furthermore, why are certain people talking about the limited Defog options without also talking about the increase in spinners? The Paradox Donphan mons in particular are both really good right now. Balloon also doesn't last the whole match. Since they have to switch into you to block your hazard clear, you can force it to pop fairly easily. People complaining about Gholdengo changing typing aren't acknowledging that A. this comes at the opportunity cost of generally bigger offensive threats and B. all non ghost type changes no longer block Rapid Spin and it stays that way for the rest of the match.
Another thing I don't understand about the hazard stacking complaining is it's fairly easy to make your teams less vulnerable to the hazards. Boots are better with less Knock Off in the meta. There are plenty of good poison types to soak up T-Spikes. How long in OU has it been where nearly every team has at least one Ground and one Steel type? There are also a lot of of good fighting types. It's really not hard to make 2/3rds to half your team resist rocks and have another pokemon with Heavy Duty Boots. And good Flying types are also common. While they are weak or sometimes neutral to rocks, they are immune to the other hazards. It's really not hard to build a team that really isn't as bothered about hazards.
And for those of us still working with teams that are vulnerable to certain hazards or hazard stacking, as I myself often do, that's the risk you take. You simply have to take that into consideration when you are making your team. But this is the way it has always been. Like I've been experiencing a lot with offensive Talonflame sets, so I often keep a backup anti-hazard measure and build the team with Gholdengho in mind. And wouldn't you know it, Gholdengo isn't the problem with my teams. It's other unrelated stuff. But I digress.
Maushold can't do anything to Gholdengo either right? It can't be spinblocked but it lets in Gholdengo either way and very much ends up stopping your teams momentum in this way. Granted, its definitely a problem built up from the lack of viable hazard removal (especially hazard removal with specially defensive viability).
The main issue is the incredibly common Gholdengo/Donphan 50/50. Gholdengo's existence means that everytime you want to spin, you have to either make the prediction that they come in and EQ on them (thus preventing the spin), or you have to spin hoping they don't come in (which if they come in, they prevent the spin) (or you knock bc they might be balloon). This whole 50/50 is invalidated by Air Balloon Gholdengos, which even beats any counterplay Glimmora might have, and in a tier with so many incredibly potent offensive threats, a couple layers of spikes over one or two switches is usually enough to put your mons in range of powerful attacks (such as Pult/Roaring Moon against a tera banded jet punch, or your Kingambit in range of Specs Iron Bundle Hydro). Not being able to spin/defog and being forced to attack bc Gholdengo exists still blocks hazard removal, even if Gholdengo gets taken out early on. The few turns that Gholdengo blocks removal are really all you need in such a meta, and this may change when the meta slows down after all the bans.
I'm really not sure how to deal with this, as Gholdengo by itself is still a potent pokemon outside of its ability, but the ability singlehandedly makes a playstyle incredibly difficult to deal with.
Now, onto another topic. I've really been feeling Kingambit recently, and I have three main sets I want to mention:
The EV spread for all of them is to outspeed Corviknight, and the rest is dumped into bulk. I really like this mon in this super Iron Bundle heavy metagame, as it switches into Iron Bundle's attacks pretty well (bar specs hydro) and then threatens it out and forces progress.
https://pokepast.es/139a3a27eea312bb
Choice Band and Sweeper are excellent progress makers, and Kingambit in general is very easy to fit on a team, as it soft checks non Specs Iron Bundle and forces progress w either a strong hit or rocks. I prefer Tera Flying over Tera Ghost on sweeper sets as you completely blank Great Tusk while still having a neutrality to Ghost and Dark. Tera Ghost on rocks sets helps blank Tusk while also blocking spin attempts, but in general I prefer not to tera with that set unless I absolutely have to.
I've also been toying with a potential Toxtricity team, as it baits in a lot of this tiers Grounds and beats them 1v1. It's more of an HO pick, but nonetheless seems to have a niche.
Toxtricity @ Life Orb
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shift Gear
- Drain Punch
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
Shift Gear + DP lets you beat Blissey 1v1, and boomburst + life orb is enough to take out a lot of the ground type switchins to Toxtricity.
Some notable calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Garchomp: 455-536 (108.3 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 372-439 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Great Tusk: 541-637 (124.6 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Treads: 346-407 (107.7 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Iron Treads: 346-407 (90.1 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sandy Shocks: 413-489 (110.4 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 486-572 (123.3 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Granted, this set has difficulty with the ghosts in the tier, such as Pult and Annihilape, and definitely isn't a top threat or anything, but its a cool set that can work if you're aiming to bait grounds in and kill them. The only real concern for these grounds is watching out for the occasional sash Chomp/Quagsire/Tusk, but if you set up your hazards as you would with your HO team, then it should be fine. It also has the advantage of absolutely dismantling slower teams by beating Pex/Clod/Blissey/Corv cores.
Last edited:
In case anyone was wondering it does not, RIP my Cyclizar Annilhilape cheese team
Torkoal: generally sun only.
Treads/Tusk: excellent mons that still can't always threaten Gholdengo if it air balloon sets. Plus both struggle to switch into it.
Talonflame: lol
Glimmora can't threaten air balloon Gholdengo and Glim being mainly a lead, is not often around to even attack or threaten Gholdengo. As for the boots remark, if you expect every team to run four to five boots yet don't see the problem with that... And Maushold is complete match-up fish garbage. The options for hazard removal are limited as is and even though Corv and the Dons are excellent mons on their own, they are quickly overwhelmed against the kind of offensive pressure Gholdengo hazard stack teams exert, plus Corv cannot beat such teams. You also have to actually get Tusk/Treads in which isn't exactly the easiest against a well built Gholdengo team.
The kind of 50/50s here are heavily weighted in the Gholdengo player's favor. If they predict right, the spinner side loses a huge amount of momentum (and also lets some variants of Balloon Gholdengo to sub up). This also is on top of the base 50/50 of even clicking EQ vs Spin because you don't yet know if the Gholdengo is even balloon. Great Tusk is also tspikes weak and its lesser defensive utility on top of guaranteed spikes damage (2-3 layers worth) means it won't get many chances to spin.
While Palafin and Iron Bundle are blatantly broken, Gholdengo has a massive influence on the tier and tye more I see it and play with and against it, the more I'm convinced it's simply an unhealthy presence. Other ghosts would be fine spinblocking replacements (Dragapult, Annihilape) and would be great, but would be far less overbearing by comparison.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Still sounds like a cheese team to me
- Status