Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Taliheim]

if you'll allow me to be slightly off-topic for a second, if you responded to TPP's prompt: What do you define "Competitive" as, relating to Q. #9?

I'd have to imagine that five different responders would have five different interpretations of the term's application; my application, for example, would be "How fun the teambuilding and gameplay is in the highest level of tournament play," since, after all, that's kinda the point of being competitive and balanced anyway.

 

[FuzzyPckls]

From my limited experience, it's difficult to bring in given how frail it is, so having it get in twice (one to chunk Garchomp and the next to potentially sweep) would be extremely tough. Its biggest nemesis, RH Corviknight, can Roost off the Super Fang easy enough and U-Turn is doing around 2% to it, while Maus is taking 8 times that in chip damage. Not to mention losing coverage on Ghosts would really hurt.

I love how Maus looks, but I've not had much joy in using it, unfortunately. Feel you about the battling part though, I spend way too long theorying and not nearly enough time battling.

Fair point actually. I'm looking at its moveset and outside of Tera Blast Fire I don't really see anything it can use to deal with Rocky Helmet Corviknight unfortunately. I guess you'd just have to rely on an ally dealing with Corv before Maus can try to get going.

 

[TheTraininator]

Good as Gold is probably the most broken ability we've seen in pokemon.

Ok, I know that this is me being incredibly semantic, but other than its incredibly strong ability to completely shut down Defog, Good as Gold is literally a worse version of Magic Bounce, an ability that a large portion of Pokémon have had and not been banned with in the context of OU, with the notable exception of Mega Sableye. Gholdengo definitely has a solid ability, but I think it’s important for the sake of actually discussing its impact on the metagame to not act like it’s totally broken and without precedent; Gholdengo’s strengths come from that ability combined with its ability to block spin and its solid offensive + defensive prowess all in one package.

Also speaking of Mega Sableye, the comparison between it and Gholdengo is interesting because there is some overlap in that they both are spinblockers that enable their respective playstyles to maintain strong hazard advantage through their abilities and other combinations of traits, but Gholdengo is more of an offensive tank that fits on spike stacking offense whereas Mega Sableye was a true wall which enabled stall to thrive alongside assistance from Dugtrio (who was the real culprit that made stall too strong in late ORAS, don’t @ me). They both have different strengths and were also present in wildly different metagames, so the comparison I feel is mostly surface level.

 

[ayevon]

Ok, I know that this is me being incredibly semantic, but other than its incredibly strong ability to completely shut down Defog, Good as Gold is literally a worse version of Magic Bounce, an ability that a large portion of Pokémon have had and not been banned with in the context of OU, with the notable exception of Mega Sableye. Gholdengo definitely has a solid ability, but I think it’s important for the sake of actually discussing its impact on the metagame to not act like it’s totally broken and without precedent; Gholdengo’s strengths come from that ability combined with its ability to block spin and its solid offensive + defensive prowess all in one package.

Also speaking of Mega Sableye, the comparison between it and Gholdengo is interesting because there is some overlap in that they both are spinblockers that enable their respective playstyles to maintain strong hazard advantage through their abilities and other combinations of traits, but Gholdengo is more of an offensive tank that fits on spike stacking offense whereas Mega Sableye was a true wall which enabled stall to thrive alongside assistance from Dugtrio (who was the real culprit that made stall too strong in late ORAS, don’t @ me). They both have different strengths and were also present in wildly different metagames, so the comparison I feel is mostly surface level.

It's hard to divorce how good an ability is from the viability of pokemon, but generally speaking I would said denying defog is better than bouncing back status/hazards (with bouncing back hazards probably the meaningful separater between the two. In this meta and probably most others, there's way more hazard setters than effective rumors, meaning there's probably a wider pool of pokemon that can defeat your bouncer as opposed to defeating your defog blocker).

But the comparison betwene Mega Sableye and Gholdengo is obviously not how they function in the actual gameplay, moreso their ability to singlehandly enable a playstyle to be one of the most effective in the meta.

 

[alephgalactus]

It's hard to divorce how good an ability is from the viability of pokemon

Not really, just look at the AAA banlist to see the Abilities that are broken independently of the Pokémon they’re on.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Hello,

Here are some issues I have with the tier that I think are solvable:

1) If this is not a legal moveset:

Then this should not be a legal moveset:

Has nothing to do with Cyclizar, it's just an already established Smogon policy that Baton Passing a Substitute is not competitive gameplay, so a move that combines the two should not be allowed as it violates this same exact policy and in fact does it much worse. Doesn't matter if it's Cyclizar or Orthworm, and in fact it's more problematic sometimes on Worm because it's so slow so you can't break the sub the same turn. Just ban the move Shed Tail - you don't need to ban Cyclizar, the move is uncompetitive by Smogon standards on both Cyclizar and Orthworm so just ban the move and let Cyclizar be a stud in RU or something.

--

2) If this has been proven to be problematic:


252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%)

Then this should also be considered to be problematic:


252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 196-232 (49 - 58%)

There is just no way this is going to last - and same goes for Chi-Yu for the same reasons though it's not as bad:


252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Clodsire: 237-279 (51 - 60.1%) (this is the best special tank besides blob atm)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 193-228 (27.4 - 32.3%)

It's just very hard to believe that something that dramatically cuts your defenses is healthy for the metagame, and this is something much more suited for Ubers. It's basically like Soul Dew Lati@s in older gens but without the defensive boost (and not requiring the item held). Just send these both to Ubers already, I am sure they will thrive there.

--

3)
I think this guy is just a bit too strong for the meta. It's like Palafin but slightly slower but with a move that can reach 300 BP??? I'm not so sure we need moves like that in the meta. Rage Fist is also available on Primeape though, so not sure if a weird eviolite Primeape set w/ Rage Fist could also be effective - if so then maybe just look into banning Rage Fist instead of Annihilape and it's surely fine. But if not, then just ban Annihilape, can't have stuff like this in the meta.

--

That's all, I think everything else is fine for now, or at the very least shouldn't be chopped quickly. Get rid of these 4 things (Shed Tail, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Rage Fist/or/Annihilape) and then you will likely see the meta actually start to thrive and develop in a positive direction. Nobody's going to agree on what to do with Tera atm and these things transcend that anyways - I really think these are holding the meta back right now, and even though I'm sure there's other stuff people think are problematic I don't think it's quite on the same level and we'd need more time to analyze those after banning these. So I hope action is taken or at least deliberated on for these problematic elements very soon.

Thanks for reading.

 

[earl]

Hello,

Here are some issues I have with the tier that I think are solvable:

1) If this is not a legal moveset:

View attachment 469582
View attachment 469583

Then this should not be a legal moveset:

View attachment 469584
View attachment 469585

Has nothing to do with Cyclizar, it's just an already established Smogon policy that Baton Passing a Substitute is not competitive gameplay, so a move that combines the two should not be allowed as it violates this same exact policy and in fact does it much worse. Doesn't matter if it's Cyclizar or Orthworm, and in fact it's more problematic sometimes on Worm because it's so slow so you can't break the sub the same turn. Just ban the move Shed Tail - you don't need to ban Cyclizar, the move is uncompetitive by Smogon standards on both Cyclizar and Orthworm so just ban the move and let Cyclizar be a stud in RU or something.

--

2) If this has been proven to be problematic:


252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%)

Then why in the world is this not considered to be problematic:


252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. -2 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 294-346 (73.5 - 86.5%)

There is just no way this is going to last - and same goes for Chi-Yu for the same reasons though it's not as bad:


252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 325-384 (70 - 82.7%) (this is the best special tank besides blob atm)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 291-343 (41.3 - 48.7%) (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

It's just very hard to believe that something that halves your defenses is healthy for the metagame, and this is something much more suited for Ubers. It's basically like Soul Dew Lati@s in older gens except instead of +1 SpA/SpD it is just a pure +2 Spa or Att. Just send these both to Ubers already, I am sure they will thrive there.

--

3)
I think this guy is just a bit too strong for the meta. It's like Palafin but slightly slower but with a move that can reach 300 BP??? I'm not so sure we need moves like that in the meta. Rage Fist is also available on Primeape though, so not sure if a weird eviolite Primeape set w/ Rage Fist could also be effective - if so then maybe just look into banning Rage Fist instead of Annihilape and it's surely fine. But if not, then just ban Annihilape, can't have stuff like this in the meta.

--

That's all, I think everything else is fine for now, or at the very least shouldn't be chopped quickly. Get rid of these 4 things (Shed Tail, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Rage Fist/or/Annihilape) and then you will likely see the meta actually start to thrive and develop in a positive direction. Nobody's going to agree on what to do with Tera atm and these things transcend that anyways - I really think these are holding the meta back right now, and even though I'm sure there's other stuff people think are problematic I don't think it's quite on the same level and we'd need more time to analyze those after banning these. So I hope action is taken or at least deliberated on for these problematic elements very soon.

Thanks for reading.

The Ruin abilities only reduce the respective stats by 25% (approximately the Tough Claws boost), these things don’t have Pure Power lmao

Also Annihilape has 45 less attack than Palafin, so I wouldn’t call it just “slightly slower”

 

[BigFatMantis]

The Ruin abilities only reduce the respective stats by 25% (approximately the Tough Claws boost), these things don’t have Pure Power lmao.

Oh, that makes more sense then. Let me adjust the calcs.

 

[Rothj]

Anyone else sort of annoyed by the lack of defoggers/rapid spinners in the format? At this point, I'm kind of on board with a goldengo ban just because it's so impossible to remove hazards right now. I mean there are options available but a lot of stuff that you would typically expect to be able to remove hazards(rotom, cloyster, scizor), straight up don't have the move anymore. I think he would be fine with more pokemon in the game... but as it is right now it's pretty hard to actually do anything about hazards outside of a few strong options.

 

[escarlata]

Gonna put my 2 cents on some of the things currently on the radar, that probably noone cares about.
Cyclizar is honestly feeling more manageable as I have learnt to play around it. As long as you are able to position to break the Sub everytime it comes in, Shed Tail feels no different from a slow U-turn or Teleport. When playing into Cyclizar, you are reasonably rewarded by being able to force it to Shed Tail unfavorably. I can see how people want it banned because of how low risk high reward it can be but I honestly don't mind either way. (Edit: Ok get rid of this thing. Turns out the only reason I'm not having trouble with it is because the main team I was laddering with was just accidentally over-over-prepared for it)
Unpopular opinion but I don't mind hazard stacking being a thing. Maybe I'm sadistic but I was never a fan of Defog being a surefire way of removing hazards with no counterplay. Hazards in Gen 4 for example was almost impossible to remove efficiently but BO and Stall are still extremely effective strategies that could often use hazard stacking themselves to wear down HO. Honestly, I find the main reason for hazard stacking feeling more oppresive than ever is just the expanded distribution of Spikes in general. I never liked how I can just push Defog to undo what my opponent did in 2-4 turns, and I honestly don't mind losing to hazard stacking if I'm playing a team who allows the opponent 2-4 free turns to set up Spikes in the first place without having a plan to punish Gholdengo.
I can definitely see how stupid fish is oppressive, and I won't mind see him getting banned. He is just Tapu Lele but with the speed tier that could certainly have gotten Lele banned. But then again, I could see him becoming more manageable if Tera gets banned first, so I would withhold judgment on this one.
I joke about how Jumpluff can do the same thing with the same Tera typing (Jumpluff can; fight me if you disagree) and honestly I think this is the offensive threat that is most dependent on Tera right now. Similar to ^, I would withhold judgment on this one until a consensus has been reached on Tera.
Read ^
Really on the fence on this one. Certainly more manageable than Houndstone because of its low speed, and is absolute Taunt bait but also sometimes also win some matchups on its own. Another of those mons I don't care where it ends up.

Regarding Tera:
I have said earlier in this thread that I don't mind how Tera affects the matchup between archetypes (i.e. offense vs stall; offense vs balance; stall vs offense), there is still some skill expression involved in EV adjustments, positional plays and making punishes. In offense vs stall, good usage of Tera rewards you by letting you breaking through defensive backbones; in stall vs offense, you can generally afford to run multiple mons or adjust EV spreads to cover for common Tera variant etc etc.)

I do though, have a problem with how Tera affects the offense vs offense matchup. Offensive teams are still up there because offensive threats are stronger than ever, but I never feel good whenever I'm in an offense vs offense matchup because that matchup is all about making favorable trades, which Tera adds a lot of uncertainty to. There is only so much you can prepare in advance, especially when you are playing offensive. HO is matchup dependent by nature, but at least when you load into a game, you can still make a gameplan on how to win an unfavorable matchup, but Tera makes it so much less possible to form a reliable gameplan until someone commits the Tera.

YMMV, but the offense vs offense matchup feels so shitty to me because half the time I don't feel like I outplayed the opponent when I win, and I don't feel like I got outplayed when I lose. Everything having their preferred Tera typing over time is one thing, but that just adds to how off-meta Tera typings throws a wrench into the offense-offense matchup in particular. It’s their fault for not preparing for Tera Ghost Dragapult, but I don’t see why I should be allowed to steal wins with Tera Fire DD Dragapult when the opponent made the informed play to sack their Fire resist when I don’t have a Fire attacker for example.
And I emphasize, my problem with Tera is in the offense vs offense matchup specifically. There is no such thing as “just don’t sack lul”. I shouldn’t be allowed to punish an educated sack just because I have a specific Tera type that is impossible to account for.

The meta will stabilize such that each mon will have 1-2 preferred type, but it doesn’t mean having the other 10+ type actively grief your team. Reality is that there will also be a list of 4-6 rogue typings for each mon that could steal games if unprepared for, and I don’t think players should not be punished for not playing around them because that becomes completely matchup dependent, except only one player knows the matchup at any time.

 

[KamenOH]

Hello,

Here are some issues I have with the tier that I think are solvable:

1) If this is not a legal moveset:

View attachment 469582
View attachment 469583

Then this should not be a legal moveset:

View attachment 469584
View attachment 469585

Has nothing to do with Cyclizar, it's just an already established Smogon policy that Baton Passing a Substitute is not competitive gameplay, so a move that combines the two should not be allowed as it violates this same exact policy and in fact does it much worse. Doesn't matter if it's Cyclizar or Orthworm, and in fact it's more problematic sometimes on Worm because it's so slow so you can't break the sub the same turn. Just ban the move Shed Tail - you don't need to ban Cyclizar, the move is uncompetitive by Smogon standards on both Cyclizar and Orthworm so just ban the move and let Cyclizar be a stud in RU or something.

--

2) If this has been proven to be problematic:


252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%)

Then why in the world is this not considered to be problematic:


252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. -2 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 294-346 (73.5 - 86.5%)

There is just no way this is going to last - and same goes for Chi-Yu for the same reasons though it's not as bad:


252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 325-384 (70 - 82.7%) (this is the best special tank besides blob atm)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 291-343 (41.3 - 48.7%) (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

It's just very hard to believe that something that halves your defenses is healthy for the metagame, and this is something much more suited for Ubers. It's basically like Soul Dew Lati@s in older gens except instead of +1 SpA/SpD it is just a pure +2 Spa or Att. Just send these both to Ubers already, I am sure they will thrive there.

--

3)
I think this guy is just a bit too strong for the meta. It's like Palafin but slightly slower but with a move that can reach 300 BP??? I'm not so sure we need moves like that in the meta. Rage Fist is also available on Primeape though, so not sure if a weird eviolite Primeape set w/ Rage Fist could also be effective - if so then maybe just look into banning Rage Fist instead of Annihilape and it's surely fine. But if not, then just ban Annihilape, can't have stuff like this in the meta.

--

That's all, I think everything else is fine for now, or at the very least shouldn't be chopped quickly. Get rid of these 4 things (Shed Tail, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Rage Fist/or/Annihilape) and then you will likely see the meta actually start to thrive and develop in a positive direction. Nobody's going to agree on what to do with Tera atm and these things transcend that anyways - I really think these are holding the meta back right now, and even though I'm sure there's other stuff people think are problematic I don't think it's quite on the same level and we'd need more time to analyze those after banning these. So I hope action is taken or at least deliberated on for these problematic elements very soon.

Thanks for reading.

Gonna deconstruct this one by one.

Hello,

Here are some issues I have with the tier that I think are solvable:

1) If this is not a legal moveset:

View attachment 469582
View attachment 469583

Then this should not be a legal moveset:

View attachment 469584
View attachment 469585

Has nothing to do with Cyclizar, it's just an already established Smogon policy that Baton Passing a Substitute is not competitive gameplay, so a move that combines the two should not be allowed as it violates this same exact policy and in fact does it much worse. Doesn't matter if it's Cyclizar or Orthworm, and in fact it's more problematic sometimes on Worm because it's so slow so you can't break the sub the same turn. Just ban the move Shed Tail - you don't need to ban Cyclizar, the move is uncompetitive by Smogon standards on both Cyclizar and Orthworm so just ban the move and let Cyclizar be a stud in RU or something.

Baton pass was banned because it allowed the transfer of boosts that shit really shouldn't've gotten, like speed boosts on a sweeper that normally wouldn't run agility because they were too busy actually having sweeping moves, or just stored power espeon getting a leg up. Dry passing, aka literally just baton pass first thing, probably wasn't ban worthy, simply because its volt switch without the damage, but that would be a real complex ban to try and enforce, so they axed the BP altogether.
Shed Tail is just a dry pass with a sub, which yes is not dry at all (its wetter than the mod's mother), but it can't pass anything BUT the sub, which comes at a 50% HP cut to the user. If your pasee fails, youre shit out of luck. Also, the only users are frail. Yes Cyclizar is fast but it dies to priority or ice or both, and Orthworm has pitiful special defense. Burn it. It dies to an ember, probably.
This doesn't even go around the fact that we shouldn't be banning a move because its similar to another move. Rage Fist and Last Respects are quite similar, yet we didn't ban RF because LR (in effect; the dog has been beaten by many shovels at this point let it rest) was banned. We oversaw it on its own merits, and RF sorta sucks. Those that get it aren't able to really withstand enough hits for it not to be wet paper slapping a steel wall. Shed Tail is similar. Yes, Cyclizar uses it quite well, but Orthworm sorta struggles. Its slow as fuck, and as mentioned, specially frail. Often, I cant even get a tail up when I run it. Now, there are only two users who know ST, and as such we sorta have to have the move be borken on both to reasonably ban it, which it, IMO, isn't. Cyclizar might be banned because of it, yes, but I dont really see why it should. All it does is bring in sweepers.

2) If this has been proven to be problematic:


252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%)

Then this should also be considered to be problematic:


252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 196-232 (49 - 58%)

There is just no way this is going to last - and same goes for Chi-Yu for the same reasons though it's not as bad:


252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Clodsire: 237-279 (51 - 60.1%) (this is the best special tank besides blob atm)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 193-228 (27.4 - 32.3%)

It's just very hard to believe that something that dramatically cuts your defenses is healthy for the metagame, and this is something much more suited for Ubers. It's basically like Soul Dew Lati@s in older gens but without the defensive boost (and not requiring the item held). Just send these both to Ubers already, I am sure they will thrive there.

Once again, comparisons are not a reasonable way to suggest something is ban worthy. Just because Chien-Pao can smack a bird out of the sky in two moves (it dies to a body press (its x4 super effective) anyways it gets checked) doesnt mean its a ban worthy threat. Its quite similar to weavile, in which priority or a bulky fighting type will smack it between the legs. Yes, bringing a strong fighting type move is sorta weird, but many pokemon already run fighting type moves in their sets anyways. I recommend Iron Valiant to deal with it. Chi-Yu is much the same, where while it is fast, it is also a bit frail. However, there are no 4x weaknesses to exploit.
As a last note, though someone already mentioned it, halving the defenses isn't right. The Ruin abilities only lower their respective stat by a quarter, so these calcs you posted will be overexaggerating their potential. Clodsire and Dodonzo might just KO it when they tank a hit.

3)
I think this guy is just a bit too strong for the meta. It's like Palafin but slightly slower but with a move that can reach 300 BP??? I'm not so sure we need moves like that in the meta. Rage Fist is also available on Primeape though, so not sure if a weird eviolite Primeape set w/ Rage Fist could also be effective - if so then maybe just look into banning Rage Fist instead of Annihilape and it's surely fine. But if not, then just ban Annihilape, can't have stuff like this in the meta.

--

That's all, I think everything else is fine for now, or at the very least shouldn't be chopped quickly. Get rid of these 4 things (Shed Tail, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Rage Fist/or/Annihilape) and then you will likely see the meta actually start to thrive and develop in a positive direction. Nobody's going to agree on what to do with Tera atm and these things transcend that anyways - I really think these are holding the meta back right now, and even though I'm sure there's other stuff people think are problematic I don't think it's quite on the same level and we'd need more time to analyze those after banning these. So I hope action is taken or at least deliberated on for these problematic elements very soon.

Thanks for reading.

Like Houndstone, this reads as though Rage Fist is the real problem you seem to have. As such, I shall interpret it as such.
Rage fist starts off as weak (50 BP) and requires Annihilape to take actual move damage in order for it to grow in strength. As the Ape is a bit slow, it will likely take a few hits from many things. It is also weak to Ghost, Flying, and Psychic if my ghost type chart is up to date, which are all common attack types in the meta. Dragapult and Roaring Moon probaby one shot, as does Chi-Yu. It is probably just a gimmick pokemon in the end, although one that must be dealt with quickly. I don't think anyone should pay it considerable focus, given that Gholdengo is a prominent ghost, beaten by Dragapult as well, and while its ability is contentious, it isnt the focus of your post.

As for your end comment, I cant tell what you mean by "positive direction". If anything, these proposed bans would inevitably decrease the strength of Offense as a whole. Cyclizar allows a sweeper of choice, preferably Dragonite at this point, to come in, while the two chinese evils are considerable forces of their own, managable as they are.

I do appreciate the good read, though, so, you're welcome.

 

[alephgalactus]

As for your end comment, I cant tell what you mean by "positive direction". If anything, these proposed bans would inevitably decrease the strength of Offense as a whole.

Yes, they would, and that’s a good thing because offense is way too strong right now. You seem to be equating “offense” with “good meta”, which is fitting given the username, but unfortunately untrue.

 

[Blaxithan]

Wanted to take a quick second to discuss what I believe are easily the two strongest 'mons in the meta post Palafin/Bundle ban, and will likely continue to be regardless of what happens with Terastallize. I think most people who have been playing the game these past two weeks agree that Chi-Yu is currently the strongest 'mon in the tier, with very few answers, all of which having the potential to be torn apart with optimized sets. When offered a Choice between Specs or Scarf, I think both do massive amounts of work in dismantling entire archetypes of teams singlehandedly. All of this is without considering the influx of sun teams running rampant to utilize Protosynthesis on equally powerful 'mons, such as Roaring Moon or Great Tusk. I have also seen multiple people running niche options, such as Will-O-Wisp and Ghost Tera with Hex to circumvent physical attackers like Breloom and Dragonite , although I do believe it is unideal at best.

Moving along to Chien Pao, I think people are much more divided on this 'mon due to the sheer amount of physical walls prevalent in the meta atm, with Dondozo and Garganacl standing out as premier checks. While I do not wish to take away from these 'mons and their purpose in the tier, I personally believe that following any ruling on Tera, they will not be anywhere near as common. That leaves us with one of the best physical breakers in recent memory, and while I don't think the Darmanitan-G comparison is accurate, it's not entirely incorrect. Again, the sheer breaking power is off the charts, and while I've seen many differing opinions on how this 'mon should be ran, from Heavy-Duty Boots, Life Orb or Choice Band, I can't really say for certain what terrifies me more from a teambuilding perspective. All of this without even going into Tera, and all the demonic people innovating new ways to again, circumvent what few counters do exist.

I'm not sure when, exactly, my opinion changed from "Fish and Tiger really strong" to "Tera is absolutely making them banworthy" in the process of writing this, I guess that's just what happens at 3am on a Wednesday morning when trying to get your thoughts about Gen 9 OU in order. My only other contribution to this thread will be the three checks I've started splashing on teams to avoid being too weak to our Chinese animal legends, so that my fellow builders can use them in these trying times.

Hide

>

Tauros-Paldea-Fire (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Body Press
- Bulk Up
- Raging Bull

>

Ting-Lu @ Chesto Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Rest / Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ruination / Whirlwind

> both
Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Claw / Swords Dance
- Play Rough

 

[bogglywoods]

Houndstone and (potentially) Annihilape really make me wish Smogon's definitions for proving the move is the issue weren't so weird or considered a complex ban. I mean, how hard can it really be to test a Pokemon with and without a move or ability or anything else and deduce the Pokemon itself wasn't the issue? I know that isn't how Smogon usually does bans and that's why it's like this, but it always feels like a wasted opportunity, especially when it's a Pokemon like G!Darmanitan or Annihilape with an interesting typing that just isn't there outside of Ubers.

 

[Blue Sun]

Hello!
After playing for roughly a week and reading some opinions in this thread, these are some of my thoughts on the meta:

1) Hazard stacking is the face of this gen and we may have to accept it. This is a new gen and maybe a new standard needs to be set. This seems actually intended because every entry hazard has become a tm. Now spikes and t spikes are not a previledge with limited availability but rother mainstream. Hazard removal has also become more widespread with the introduction of a lot new powerfull spinners. Boots is still the best item to run if you are not settling for a more strategic one (specs, band, scarf). Gholdengo is amazing but not because he is the best blocker. Many setters and spinners absolutely destroy it and weakness to ground is a big thing (which I will talk about later). Gholdengo's best set imo is nasty plot recover and double stab. Item up to personal liking (I like spell tag on this one). It is what aegislash wished to be and Aegi was already an amazing mon. Despite being in a strong position, golden boy has a lot of things going against it namely ground and dark spam weakness.

2) Ground spam is king. Aside from corv there is literally no good ground resist/immunity that can fit into a lot of teams. Torn and Lando-T covered that spot in earlier gens but now you have to sack momentum by running the pivot crow or trying to fit a random Dragonite. Not that its a bad thing given that corvi checks have the meta, but ive seen a lot of teams even on the high ladder that have trouble soaking hits form garchomp and great tusk and that feels very weird. Band chomp is actually pretty good.

3) There is no strong special psychic. Strongest psychic stab is I believe Armarouge. Ladder is full with fat physical defensive mons that would get punished so hard but alas. Strong dark presense in the meta but bulkyness to counter it is the norm. Unaware Trio of clodsire, dondozo and skeledirge puts a lot of work most of the time.

4) Shed tail is absolutely broken and I was very surprised when it evaded the ban. Surprisingly the subs are pretty fat themselves so they serve not only as momentum gainers but outright game enders some times.

5) If i'd make a top 5 rn my choices would be Chi-Yu, Roaring Moon, Corviknight, Gholdengo and Chien-Pao. Fish is absolutely broken. Very few things can reliably switch into and that thing packs a punch even with timid scarf. Absolute monster behind a free sub. Huge weakness to entry hazards tho and limited movepool. Not a great Tera abuser. Roaring Moon is the best set up mon in the tier and can run a ton of choices depending on its tera type. Flying Acrobatics, Dark Ultra Stab and Fairy Terablast are my favorite sets. I strongly prefer the fairy one. Corvknight is the most reliable ground check in the tier. Tha alone gets it in the top 5. Surprisingly strong vs a lot of threats. Brave Bird does a lot of damage even with minimal attack investment. I find that both body press and BB are needed. Better to forgo u-turn. Most of the time you'd be roosting anyway because you want this as healthy as possible. Golden Boy is a stone cold killer. Bulky set up is AMAZING. I find the choice sets to actually hinder his effectiveness. Recover is a godsend with such a great typing and pretty decent defenses and unlike aegislash he has amazing steel stab that can utilise. NP set murders slow teams. I appreciate his spin blocking but i find that to be secondary. Mon's a true pillar of the meta for sure. Lastly ice ferret is kind of what weavile was last gen. Lack o Knock-Off is huge. A better speed tier and ability kind of make up for it. Good luck finding a good switch in on offense.

6) Tera is the most fun mechanic since Mega evolution. Absolutely impactful but a lot less broken than dynamax ...which doesn't say much because Dynamax was broken as shit. I'm enjoying Tera but i can hear the voices against it. Its bordeline broken/bordeline fair depending on your attitude towards it. Whatever is the communities approach I implore againt hasty action tho... Its this gens defining trait and deserve to be explored to the extend that it isnt absolutely uncompetitive.

Lastly, a general notion I have is that this gen shouldn't be tiered with the S/S standards. We probably shouldn't regard the state of the previous meta as the golden standard for the development of this one. The game has changed and the power level has risen drastically. What would be broken in a solved ten pokemon meta like gen 8 might not be the same now!

 

[Éric]

Houndstone and (potentially) Annihilape really make me wish Smogon's definitions for proving the move is the issue weren't so weird or considered a complex ban. I mean, how hard can it really be to test a Pokemon with and without a move or ability or anything else and deduce the Pokemon itself wasn't the issue? I know that isn't how Smogon usually does bans and that's why it's like this, but it always feels like a wasted opportunity, especially when it's a Pokemon like G!Darmanitan or Annihilape with an interesting typing that just isn't there outside of Ubers.

I think youre mixing stuff up here. Banning a move isnt a complex ban, theres nothing complex about it, and it has been done in the past (see: baton pass in most tiers, or sticky webs in lc). But for a move to be banned, you need to prove that the move specifically is whats broken, and not the mon that uses it. For example, you could say that jet punch is what made palafin broken (maybe its a dumb example i didnt play palafin meta but just to make my point clear), but jet punch itself is not really that different from other priority moves we have like aqua jet or technician bullet punch, and its worse than espeed. Its clear in this case that whats broken is palafin itself, with a billion stats *and* jet punch. Rage fist is kind of the same. Its a move thats weak at first, and you need two hits to make it really powerful (after the first turn its just an earthquake). So why is it (maybe) broken? Well, its on a mon with a typing and stats that actually allow it to take those hits and then attack w rage fist, even boosted by bulk up and provoking these attacks via taunt, while recovering w lefties and drain punch. So if we were to ban anything, it wouldnt be the move that isnt broken, but the mon thats broken with it. I totally get wanting to preserve mons if we can, but we would be kind of lying if we said its rage fist what deserves a ban, and not annihilape.
not gonna comment on last respects bc i agree w you on that one and even finch said on discord that it couldve been that way and that its gonna happen when basculegion drops

 

[Bugboy]

About chi-yu. lets compare it to Tapu Lele, who has been on the verge of being overpowered for two generations. The calcs and comparisons below will be done against kangaskhan as a vanilla canvas used to compare damage.

Raw Damage output:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan in Psychic Terrain: 399-469 (113.6 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (GEN 7)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan in Psychic Terrain: 345-406 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (GEN 8)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 444-523 (126.4 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO (BEADS OF RUIN MANUALLY IMPLEMENTED)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 364-429 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (BEADS OF RUIN MANUALLY IMPLEMENTED)

I don’t think it’s off to say that chi-yu is about as powerful as gen 7 lele based on stats + ability. Obviously something can be balanced in one meta and broken in another (without terrain nerf lele might be banned in gen 8). Now outside of raw damage output, there are a few pros and cons to each.

Tapu Lele:
Psyshock is probably the biggest thing it has over chi-yu. Meaning that lele is not actually checked by blanket spdef walls. Psychic terrain also provides significant utility to avoid being revenge killed (especially useful for scarf sets). Lele is also not as weak to hazards.

Chi-yu:
Dark & fire is so much stronger coverage than lele simply because it isn’t resisted by a singular type (psychic and fairy resisted by steel). It has a better speed tier than lele, but I’m not sure 100 in gen 9 is actually better than 95 in gen 7 or 8. It has more powerful moves than lele in fire blast and overheat. It can also be abused in sun, but it’s not like we don’t already have other things doing astronomical damage in sun/rain.

So the question is: is there enough drawback that it can fill a comparable niche in the meta as Lele? Or is it simply too powerful? The counterplay to Lele was rarely ever actually switching in a wall to sponge hits, it was more so preventing it from having opportunity. Ultimately chi-yu is more immediately threatening, but also more vulnerable than Lele. At the very least, you can’t call chi-yu a direct upgrade over the special attacking threats we’ve seen before.

whether it’s banworthy is an interesting case that I can go either way on. I think it is a more complex question than “is it hard to wall” though. (Also highly dependent on what is done with tera lol).

 

[Vastus]

Since Tera is such an important part of the meta right now, and the focus of current tiering decision discussions, I thought I'd bring up a little prompt to see how people are using it and/if the use cases have changed. So:

What are your favorite Terastallization use cases right now?

I'll start with one of my own favorites: Ghost Ting-Lu. I really like this Tera for its sheer flexibility. It's not really used as a hard counter since Ting-Lu obviously has no way to kill Fighting types outright, but the additional turn can allow it to set up hazards or phase out a threatening sweeper. It also is incredibly useful for a surprise Rapid Spin block when Gholdengho is out already (or if you don't want to risk switching it into Great Tusk). And pure ghost is honestly not even the worst type defensively, having rather few weaknesses, although Dark types are common right now.
Since it has multiple uses, I can find a use it for almost every game, which is great when other Tera uses on your team are more situational.

Initially I used a lot of 'Adaptability' Teras, but I'm starting to like defensive and utility uses of Tera more and more.

 

[mark6870]

Ok im seeing a lot of Cyclizar talk and i want to put in my two cents on the matter:
Personally, I don't think the Cyclizar should be banned. It IS omnipresent but is manageable, but if it should get banned, then Cyclizar itself should get the ban, not Shed Tail.



Cyclizar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 20 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shed Tail
- Knock Off / Taunt
- U-turn
- Draco Meteor


Cyclizar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shed Tail
- U-turn
- Knock Off / Taunt
- Rapid Spin / Double Edge / Taunt


Personally i prefer the scarf set, it's less passive and can revenge kill Dragapult and certain sweepers.
Boots gets off shed tails more reliably, however, which is what you want for your cycl 99% of the time.


I don't think Shed Tail by itself is the issue. I don't think Cyclizar by itself is an issue. The issue is Cyclizar IN CONJUNCTION WITH Shed Tail, so if either of them get banned, then Cyclizar should get banned.

Cyclizar is minmaxed to abuse Shed Tail.
Its insane Speed means it can almost always get a Shed Tail off first.
Shed Tail + Regenerator in itself is insane. Since Shed Tail procs regen, Cyclizar loses a net 17% HP. It's taking damage akin to Spikes or Stealth Rock damage for a move who's drawback is meant to be taking half its health.

It also gets Knock Off, U-turn, Rapid Spin, Taunt and other support moves for when it's not passing its teammates a free substitute.

Is Cyclizar half as good as it is with Shed Tail? Nop. It's a solid RU mon without Shed Tail, but if push comes to shove the lizard should get the boot nonetheless.

Compare this to . You could say that Dracovish was broken because of a single move: Fisheous Rend; yet Vish got banned instead of the move. Why?
It's because Fisheous Rend ON Dracovish itself was broken. Arctovish also got the move, but its low Speed, even under hail (where it is outclassed by Arctozolt anyways), kept Vish in check.
It wasn't Fisheous Rend by itself that was unmanageable, it was Fisheous Rend ON Dracovish, and Dracovish wasnt absurdly minmaxed the way Cyclizar was. It did have Strong Jaw to turn Fisheous rend into double the power of a Z move, but that's about it.

Shed Tail isn't Cyclizar's signature move. People (except the low ladder) tend to forget that Orthworm also gets the move. However, Orthworm doesn't get any way to heal and is slow (which yes, does give you the benefit of being able to get momentum, but it means you risk taking over half before you can get a shed tail/you get forced out more often), and is otherwise underwhelming.

Banning Shed Tail itself is punishing Orthworm for no reason (it doesn't really matter now but it may in the future when lower tiers are created). The instances between Shed Tail-Cyclizar and Fisheous Rend-Dracovish are almost carbon copies of each other (a single move making a single pokemon broken when one other pokemon also got the move but wasn't broken because said pokemon wasn't very good). In Gen 8, Dracovish got banned. If history is doomed to repeat itself, I believe Cyclizar should get the boot over Shed Tail.

 

[Turtlek]

If Doodle (Grafaiai's signature move) was permanent, would Grafaiai be banned? It could run Huge Power with an incredibly high Atk stat and even run things like Corrosion to bait Steels.

 

[Soiramio3000]

the "overused viability" needs to be updated.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/generation-9-overused-viability-list.3711170/

palafin and iron bundle have been banned meaning that they don't belong in the list any more.

and some pokemon in that list see next to no play since they have next to no niche in OU.
who uses toxapex any more?ever since it lost knock off and scald it is nearly useless and completely outclassed by clodsire.
also I don't know about doubles but nobody uses klefki in singles.

and let's not forget iron jugulis, this thing is bad.

abomasnow may not be great but its access to snow warning+ aurora veil gives it some niche as a low budget alolan ninetails(it still is not as good unfortunately).

 

[Eeveeto]

If Doodle (Grafaiai's signature move) was permanent, would Grafaiai be banned? It could run Huge Power with an incredibly high Atk stat and even run things like Corrosion to bait Steels.

No, since it depends on the opponent. Just don't stay with your broken abilities Mons vs Grafaiai, or stay but kill it the same turn, lol.

 

[Aurist]

Houndstone and (potentially) Annihilape really make me wish Smogon's definitions for proving the move is the issue weren't so weird or considered a complex ban. I mean, how hard can it really be to test a Pokemon with and without a move or ability or anything else and deduce the Pokemon itself wasn't the issue? I know that isn't how Smogon usually does bans and that's why it's like this, but it always feels like a wasted opportunity, especially when it's a Pokemon like G!Darmanitan or Annihilape with an interesting typing that just isn't there outside of Ubers.

I don't think that Smogon's approach to this is weird. It's important to maintain a holistic approach to balance because there is a serious slippery slope to focusing on micro issues in order to "preserve" pokemon for peoples' enjoyment or whatever other purpose they might be preserved for. Many people have argued before for such bans as "Blaziken + Speed Boost", "Fishious Rend", "Level 70 Mewtwo", "Geomancy" etc.

The justification may sound complex but at the end of the day the conclusion is simple, to focus on the pokemon themselves as they are the confluence of all of these different aspects into a singular thing. Houndstone may be broken with Last Respects but those 2 things are also combined with Sand Rush, Typing, Base Stats etc. so we ban Houndstone.

If you can seriously argue that Last Respects would be broken/overwhelming/uncompetitive on any pokemon it is on, regardless of stats, type, ability etc then I think that argument should be considered and Last Respects should be considered for a ban. Similarly if it breaks enough pokemon it should be considered for a ban. Baton Pass is an example of an individual thing which was banned due to its overwhelming problematic nature across essentially every pokemon it is on.

I think that Last Respects is being focused on because of its overwhelming base power and I would urge people to consider if we should do the same if a pokemon with Boomburst proved blatantly broken and it was as low in distribution. The overall response has been a little too reactionary for my liking and I would like people to think more about the implications on how we approach banning in general because we need to be consistent and if we're going to change what we do it should be for more reasons than "people don't like not playing with X pokemon".

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

No, since it depends on the opponent. Just don't stay with your broken abilities Mons vs Grafaiai, or stay but kill it the same turn, lol.

I think they meant if it was like Sketch where it stayed between battles. So a single AAA mon.

 

[notshadydragon]

3) There is no strong special psychic. Strongest psychic stab is I believe Armarouge. Ladder is full with fat physical defensive mons that would get punished so hard but alas. Strong dark presense in the meta but bulkyness to counter it is the norm. Unaware Trio of clodsire, dondozo and skeledirge puts a lot of work most of the time.

If I may add to that, Stored Power Espathra looks pretty strong aswell. At first glance, it may not look like much, but a psychic type with Speed Boost and acess to Stored Power can become the big deal pretty quickly as soon as there is an opportunity. Adding onto that, we all know Shed Tail is a pretty overwhelming move when paired with set-up sweepers, and what better set-up sweeper than one that automatically raises it's stats. I could be wrong, but in my experience, Espathra doesn't require as much positioning to execute either. It feels pretty solid, and can deal with most dark types with Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam, aswell as heal itself back up to optimal conditions with roost.

Though, you're right, in the end psychic types are niche, and aside from dark types, we now have Skeledirge who can hit through substitutes and win any 1v1 against a psychic type unscathed, but I do reccomend to give this one a shot either way.