Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[alephgalactus]

Only gets 40% from Extreme Speed Tera Dragonite for example.

Skeledirge actually takes 0% from Extreme Speed because it’s a Ghost-type.

 

[RaichuBestMon]

Skeledirge actually takes 0% from Extreme Speed because it’s a Ghost-type.

If you don't Tera then you'll get 60% from Dragonite Earthquake.

 

[awyp]

shed tail gotta go. it can't go on like this. it's sub bp essentially. the counterplay options are limiting. cyclizar literally gets regen and can keep resetting to pass while also being part of a regen core. i'm 100% done with this tier until shed tail is done. gotta go.

Yeah it's a matter of time. I think the main consensus from a majority of the competitive community is that it's uncompetitive and IT IS a Baton Pass Substitute. With Cyclizar having Regenerator and Sitrus Berry on almost all sets, it doesn't take a lot of skill to pass a successful substitute (multiple times) on the right Pokémon that can't do anything to break the substitute.

 

[alephgalactus]

Yeah it's a matter of time.

That’s the problem, it’s all a matter of time. We’ve got a double-digit number of bannable and suspectable things running around and the meta as it stands is becoming worse and not better, but bans just aren’t happening anywhere nearly as quickly as they should be. If something isn’t done soon, OU is going to start hemorrhaging players as more and more people refuse to play it until [insert broken thing] is banned.

 

[1LDK]

Okay so I once made a kind of a big post explaining rapid spinners and deffogers availables but im gonna do it again and with fun and explanation since im bored, so im gonna run EVERY DEFFOGGER AND RAPID SPINNER, and how it manages to stay afloat against dengo, and bonus points if that mon has something else to do, in case Gholdengo gets banned, someone please tag this post i wanna feel usefull

(everyone here is fighting and for the record, a Gholdengo answer should either outspeed him in some regard, be able to take a hit, or being able to defog in his face)

Green: Viable
Yellow: Shaky
Red: Unviable

is literally a 1 move ponny, who da fuck uses cyclizar for attacking lmaoooo, but for real, has an amazing move pool, that can really make any support work, just stop spamming shed tail and have some actual fun

and (and since by lore, they are the same) are the best options, the 3 have knock off, good damage, and good bulk, i dont think i need to explain these for you

has a hazard clean that also functions as a setup move, its not blocked by Good as Gold and outspeeds non scarf dengo by a mile, and helps in his meme population stat, it also has tecnician bite or crunch to hit dengo with, sadly, maus is too frail and cant take a hit unless its locked into shadow ball, or dengo is at -1, so even if he CAN REMOVE hazards, he cannot kill gholdengo on a normal reasonable scenario

did you guys know that he learns rapid spin? and can use it to boost his speed alongside bulk up? too bad he has no coverage and gets walled by dengo

He can make dengo unlock his secret ability, Melted Bitch, with sun boosted lava plume, but torkoal does not like running rapid spin, because torkoal has a cool collection of moves such as rocks, smog, body press, yawn, etc, but HE CAN do something against him

lol, lmao even, anyone who has played 5 minutes into OU knows how bad Gholdengo shits on him, how he stayed in OU is a mistery, and to be honest, outside of the dengo matchup, corvi is still excellent due to his defensive utility, with that being said, i do propouse ONE meme answer (EDIT: Can someone explain the power trip meme? because for what I read this only stops NP sets, which, its better than not stopping nothing but idk)

YOLO CORVIKNIGHT

Corviknight @ Charcoal
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tera Blast
- Roost
- Defog
- Brave Bird

Does anybody run defog on Scizor? dont lie to me, I know nobody does, mainly because Scizor has better things to be doing, for example LO +2 Tera steel tecnician stab Bullet Punch, he also lost Scorching sands which would have been perfect for this, but at least has Night Slash

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those are the OU mons, lets see the UU mons

Hail team restricted, does have EQ and crunch so he can do something against dengo but you better have Max spedef Max HP + AV with that abismal Spedef

he has infiltrator, so he can hit things through sub, problem is, his ghost attacks are phantom force and shadow sneak, and he is frail as his inspiration of desing

uuuuuhhhhhh, too slow, sure has some bulk but that type is SHIT

Hail related mon, has Night Slash, and good hp + special bulk, 105 speed (EDIT: im revisiting this post and just realized that he doesnt have a good option to hit gholdengo outside of tera blast, and night slash is phisical and he is special, uh oh my bad)

:Iron-Bun-Wait, he is banned, anyways heres a cool as replacement, he is just chilling (Fun fact: DOES NOT have rapid spin, meaning in this tinsy tiny particular detal, Deli wins lmao)

I disscused Forrestress before, can do something with Payback and its fucking Forretress, this hazzard stacking meta is HIS favorite meta, but he is HARDCORE EXTREME STALL exclusive, alongside heavy wish support, can work but he need support

i didnt know this little guy had spin, has really cool moves but sadly he is too slow and weak to do anything

rain related, he is supper good honetly, stabs are not resisted by anything, and he can put in work with Nasty Plot, too bad rain sucks right now, but he CAN go

can spore him, and knock him off, but a smart player will know to just sack a mon to his antics and then blow his ass with a Make it rain, but if he predicts, then at least his job will be completed and thats better than some of the mons in the pool right now, his defensive typing also fucking sucks, overall, fun meme (EDIT: It seems like i underestimated his potential, so he goes from yellow to green)

Cannot touch Gholdengo at all, BUT, has anti priority, in a meta filled with it, it has THE TINYEST of niches as a dumb priority spammer blocker, otherwise, bad

if this was then she would be a pretty good answer due to her bulkyness and ability to make shit happen, sadly, her attack stat is too low and her defenses are not impresive really

has Sheer Force Life Orb Shadow Claw, bulk is too bad and he does not outspeed dengo

Unburden Shadow Ball, cant enter on Gholdengo, but can at least outspeed him and do some damage i guess, outside of that... uuhh its driftblim for fucks sake he is gonna explode the moment he meets a rocky helmet mon, its literally a balloon

has ice scales, but not a single way to hit dengo except terra, and your not wasting your tera on this

Mold Breaker defog is a meme, but does outspeed dengo AND due to mold breaker, he can TAUNT dengo, meaning he CAN stop Nasty Plot sets, sadly he has no moves to hit him, and just like scizor, you could be doing other things like Unburden sweeps

Too slow, too frail, too weak

can outspeed dengo, melt him, infiltrator and hit hard, its the second best deffoger in the game that we have right now

and friends its a meme but can outspeed dengo and invite him to a sweet dinner in hell, revelation dance also means that you can save your tera elsewhere, and given how important is to some mons, it can be a life saver

the biggest meme of them all, I hate this meme, but Gale Wings defog + fire stab is good, is literally the third best deffoger (EDIT: I forgot about the flame body strats, sorry)

So thats EVERY SINGLE POKEMON WITH THE CAPABILITYS OF HAZARD REMOVAL we have right now, what do you think about this when i put it this way, i know Gholdengo can and should be beaten by other mons, but that means you need better positioning, and depending on the match, you might not have the resources to do so, still this was a fun excersice, im going to sleep now

 

[Moyashi]

As for the individual pokemon, that was just one of a few team building answers I suggested. A lot of the arguments lately seem involve focusing too much on what people think is OU right this second in this volatile meta instead of looking for out of the box solutions. A lot of that is still in flux.

The final thing I'll say is this: If Gholdengo is really that much of a problem to you that it is ban worthy, why aren't you willing to devote a team slot to something that counters it? If it's on like a quarter of everyone's teams and it's so problematic, constricting yourself from a pokemon because it's UU by usage and not OU seems a bit strange.

Right. This is a personal pet peeve of mine but it really bugs me whenever the topic of a potentially broken pokemon comes up and remarks like this happen. The reason people aren't willing to plunder UU is because the highly volatile meta doesn't really leave much room for people to go running super specific pokemon that would be dead weight in other important match ups.

And if you don't like Talonflame, use something else. I'm pretty sure Rapid Spinners are under explored so far.

It isn't not liking Talonflame or any other lower tier pokemon. It's that they are difficult to fit without compromising other match ups, as they don't do anything noteworthy beyond that one match up (in this case Gholdengo). People are happy to experiment and try out new things, but in a metagame like this one not only is it not exactly easy to fit more unorthodox pokemon but it also is a strain on building to do so. All made worse by double ghost cores like Ape+Ghold which make spinning even harder, to say nothing of the futility of defog at that point.

If you don't Tera then you'll get 60% from Dragonite Earthquake.

+6 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Skeledirge: 160-190 (38.8 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Ghost Croc stays winning

 

[RaichuBestMon]

+6 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Skeledirge: 160-190 (38.8 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Ghost Croc stays winning

My calcs were on max spe.def. investment (and 0 def evs). I don't think defense Skeledirge is very useful.

 

[Malonik]

Thoughts on Breloom?

 

[Cuddly]

My calcs were on max spe.def. investment (and 0 def evs). I don't think defense Skeledirge is very useful.

What about mixed bulk spread?
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 72 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
252 HP and 172 Def with Bold nature ensures that Skeledirge survives 2 hits from Jolly Dragonite’s Earthquake assuming neither Teras.
12 Speed for outspeed neutral Corviknights.
Rest is dumped into SpD.

 

[Bold School]

lol, lmao even, anyone who has played 5 minutes into OU knows how bad Gholdengo shits on him, how he stayed in OU is a mistery, and to be honest, outside of the dengo matchup, corvi is still excellent due to his defensive utility, with that being said, i do propouse ONE meme answer

YOLO CORVIKNIGHT

Corviknight @ Charcoal
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tera Blast
- Roost
- Defog
- Brave Bird

This isn't really a defog set, but if you want a good anti-Gholdengo meme you could try a Power Trip set. It would probably catch a lot of people by surprise.

Does anybody run defog on Scizor? dont lie to me, I know nobody does, mainly because Scizor has better things to be doing, for example LO +2 Tera steel tecnician stab Bullet Punch, he also lost Scorching sands which would have been perfect for this, but at least has Night Slash

I've tried it as an emergency secondary option on a Choice Band set over a coverage move. Sometimes it would work because people don't expect it. It was rarely actually clicked by me, but it was still nice to have on a team that needed a bit of extra hazard clear support.

can spore him, and knock him off, but a smart player will know to just sack a mon to his antics and then blow his ass with a Make it rain, but if he predicts, then at least his job will be completed and thats better than some of the mons in the pool right now, his defensive typing also fucking sucks, overall, fun meme

You aren't running special defense? You should straight up win verse Gholdengo if you have special defense investment.

the biggest meme of them all, I hate this meme, but Gale Wings defog + fire stab is good, is literally the third best deffoger

In the Talonflame thread, several people thought Flame Body was better for the Defog set.

.
Anyway, I suspect this could further change when Pokemon Home comes on line and we probably get more hazard clear options. If we ban Gholdengo now, we'll likely have to do another suspect after more pokemon come out. But I wouldn't personally argue to ban it now based on what I've seen.

 

[awyp]

View attachment 470842
Thoughts on Breloom?

I would take the EVs and put them toward HP or speed, Breloom doesn’t have high HP to be utilizing defensive EVs with no HP EVs Introduced. So go with 252 Attack / 252 Speed or go with 252 HP / 252 Attack. Also Close Combat over Drain Punch.

Now thoughts about Breloom in the current metagame? It gets walled hard by Gholdengo which is currently the most popular Pokémon based on usage, so until Gholdengos usage goes down Breloom will have a hard time facing teams with Dengo on it. It’s still viable but you have to take out Dengo in order to be successful.

 

[Bold School]

Right. This is a personal pet peeve of mine but it really bugs me whenever the topic of a potentially broken pokemon comes up and remarks like this happen. The reason people aren't willing to plunder UU is because the highly volatile meta doesn't really leave much room for people to go running super specific pokemon that would be dead weight in other important match ups.

I don't think a single slot is equivalent to "plundering UU" but ok. I guess all I would say is to ask you two things: How bad is your Gholdengo hazard stacking match up and at what point does it become more detrimental not to build for it?

Because everyone I've seen on here complain about Gholdengo seems to think Gholdengo hazard stack is everywhere and too hard to deal with it, but don't seem to ever find the room to build to deal with it. If it's that common and problematic, you'd think you might adapt a little more?

All made worse by double ghost cores like Ape+Ghold which make spinning even harder, to say nothing of the futility of defog at that point.

I've seen this brought up a few times now so I suppose we should address this. Is Annnihilape or Gholdengo more problematic? Or is it just that Rage Fist is problematic? To me, it's Rage Fist because you get punished for chip damage. There are not that many good natural normal types right now, either.

 

[escarlata]

Gholdengo is a great mon and all, but why are we assuming that hazard spam will be solved once Gholdengo gets removed?

Gholdengo is functionally stopping one OU viable hazard remover that other Ghosts don't. The reason why hazard stacking is so strong now is because of the increased distribution of Spikes, reduced distribution of Defog and everyone being used to clicking Defog on Corviknight as a foolproof way to remove hazards.

Even if Gholdengo is removed, the amount of counterplay we have to hazard spam only increases by literally just one (Corviknight).
Much of the spinblocking antics that Gholdengo are just going to be replicated by Skeledirge, Annhilape, and even Tera Ghost Garganacl, albeit with the addition of Corviknight as an answer. Excuse the hyperbole, but is the argument for banning Gholdengo really just so that every team weak to hazard spam can just run Corviknight?

Giving my opponent one free turn to set up SR is one thing, but if I end up giving my opponent more turns to set-up multiple layers of Spikes, then functionally I gave them 3-4 free turns. In that case, it is deserved that I had to outplay the opponent with my hazard control to remove them, instead of just using Corviknight to bail me out. On teams weaker to hazard stacking, we also already have increased options in very good spinner that have very strong ways to punish the spinblockers, HDB to ignore hazard, and just a bunch of things that can punish the setters of Glimmora and Garchomp in general.

DPPt and BW for example, had some of the best spinblockers relative to the powerlevels of their times, did not have the buff to Defog yet, and still developed in a way where hazards were largely manageable. Yet now, with more tools to combat hazards as a whole, we are whining about not being able to click Defog on Corviknight?

So honestly, why is Gholdengo the problem here?
Why not ban Ghost types from OU so nothing is here to block my Rapid Spin too?

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

This isn't really a defog set, but if you want a good anti-Gholdengo meme you could try a Power Trip set. It would probably catch a lot of people by surprise.

Can confirm, Power Trip set is actually so good if you play your cards right. A lot of people come in to it expecting to be passive and pivot, but with some SpD investment and Power Trip you can hit some annoying ghost spammers on the switch in, or target some other freaks with Body Press. Not having Brave Bird does hurt it a bit though, and it kinda lends itself to setup bait once the cat is out of the bag, but it does its job well on my sun team.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Time for the new generation of players to return to our roots and learn how to play on momentum, Corv works just fine as a Defogger against Dengo teams, U-turn+hazards of your own is more than enough to pressure a team with the myriad of offensive threats around, particularly hazards Chomper which both forces out the Dengo switch and sets the Spikes that wear it down.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Gholdengo is a great mon and all, but why are we assuming that hazard spam will be solved once Gholdengo gets removed?

Gholdengo is functionally stopping one OU viable hazard remover that other Ghosts don't. The reason why hazard stacking is so strong now is because of the increased distribution of Spikes, reduced distribution of Defog and everyone being used to clicking Defog on Corviknight as a foolproof way to remove hazards.

Even if Gholdengo is removed, the amount of counterplay we have to hazard spam only increases by literally just one (Corviknight).
Much of the spinblocking antics that Gholdengo are just going to be replicated by Skeledirge, Annhilape, and even Tera Ghost Garganacl, albeit with the addition of Corviknight as an answer. Excuse the hyperbole, but is the argument for banning Gholdengo really just so that every team weak to hazard spam can just run Corviknight?

Giving my opponent one free turn to set up SR is one thing, but if I end up giving my opponent more turns to set-up multiple layers of Spikes, then functionally I gave them 3-4 free turns. In that case, it is deserved that I had to outplay the opponent with my hazard control to remove them, instead of just using Corviknight to bail me out. On teams weaker to hazard stacking, we also already have increased options in very good spinner that have very strong ways to punish the spinblockers on a good prediction, HDB to ignore hazard, and just a bunch of things that can punish the setters of Glimmora and Garchomp in general.

So honestly, why is Gholdengo the problem here?

If anything I'd look at hazards first.

I agree gholdengo is more of a product of the times rather than the problem, and I do not see any viable defoggers but corv in the game so its basically pick your poison on who you're going to see every single draft. Oddly I think corv would centralize the meta and push out the viable spinners we do have (iron treads, great tusk) since it not only checks them itself but fills their role anyway, we may gain hazard control but ironically make things more centralizing.

If hazard stacking is that much of a problem, or everyone starts running HBDs, then probably a good sign hazards need looked at. (I don't think they do, not with boots in the game)

 

[alephgalactus]

My calcs were on max spe.def. investment (and 0 def evs). I don't think defense Skeledirge is very useful.

I dunno, walling Dragonite in the current meta is pretty damn useful. (Yes, I count taking 46% as “walling” because you can Will-o-Wisp back and then Slack Off.)

 

[Ruparajan]

Skeledirge is very useful. It can tank a ton of things you would think it cannot tank.

 

[alephgalactus]

Hail related mon, has Night Slash, and good hp + special bulk, 105 speed

The fact that we’re even discussing Night Slash Cryogonal as an option in any capacity ever means that something is deeply wrong.

 

[xyeu]

I honestly have no problem with Gholdengo. I've been trying various teams with Talonflame, generally offensive sets that need Stealth Rocks to be clear, and I've had no trouble dealing with it. Even had a team with Corv as my Defog option. Corv gets hard countered by it, but the combination of U-Turn + a couple attackers that beat or threaten Gholdengo makes it not a problem. It's really not that hard to play around and I still don't see how it is ban worthy. People need to stop crying about it and learn to account for it in the team builder.

i'd like to add to this. as someone who has been trying to make stall work this gen, i don't find gholdengo to be a problem at all. beating it just comes down to the team builder, as it is extremely predictable when it comes in.

i've been running this personally to deal with it:
Great Tusk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 232 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Close Combat
- Headlong Rush
- Ice Spinner

av great tusk basically blanket-checks everything and threatens gholdengo.

i love corv for what it does, but pressure + defog needed a nerf.

 

[CaptainDaimyo]

Dragapult @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- Tera Blast
- U-turn

I've been experimenting with Scarf Tera Flying Dragapult for some time now, and I can say that it's pretty underrated.

This set can outspeed and threaten most unboosted and +1 Speed Pokemon that would normally threaten non-Scarf sets. such as Booster Energy Iron Valiant and +1 Roaring Moon. Tera Flying allows it to OHKO the aforementioned Iron Valiant, and with a Modest nature, it can also guarantee an OHKO against Great Tusk (unless it's Assault Vest), and, it can now live one Sucker Punch from Meowscarada. The only downside of Terastalizing Dragapult into a Flying-type is that it's now susceptible to hazards, so a fast spinner like Iron Treads could make for a great partner for this mon.

Important Checks:

Without Specs, Corviknight walls Dragapult easily and can even 2HKO with Brave Bird.

Draco Meteor doesn't kill, and it dies to Dark Pulse.

(AV) Tera Blast only 3HKOes thanks to the boost to SpD, and it gets OHKOed by Ice Spinner.

Tera Normal Extreme Speed has priority and can OHKO if Dragonite gets Dragon Dances up. Multiscale also makes Draco Meteor not an OHKO.

Although Sucker Punch doesn't kill, Kowtow Cleave can kill easily, and it can wall this set.

Important Calcs (used Air Slash in place of Tera Blast)

252+ SpA Dragapult Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 362-428 (125.2 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Roaring Moon: 386-456 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Dragapult Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 398-470 (107.2 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Dragapult Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 320-378 (109.2 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Meowscarada Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 129-153 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Rothj]

I've been experimenting with full special def tank roaring moon and it hilariously walls chi-yu in the sun. It gets a boost to it's special def in sunlight which means chi-yu basically tickles it if you're fully invested. It has the stats to make a good special def wall and decent typing if you have something else to go along side it.

 

[Josh08]

Where are defensive walls?

 

[ZannaBianca]

I've seen a few posts on how underwhelming Pawmot and Rabsca may feel in the current metagame but I honestly think it's just related to the ludricrous amount of HO spam at the moment. More than anything I feel Revival Blessing is the final nail in the coffin for Balance. Nothing is more frustrating than having your Dondozo, Corviknight or even Clodsire struggle but defeat the sweeper in front of you, having Pawmot switch in, either get KOd (because say whatever but its offensive sets are still a threat), switch out or fail to OHKO and then doing that crap all over again while probably getting swept.

 

[Soiramio3000]

- Grimmsnarl and his Screens are everywhere, and for damn good reason, too. Like Shed Tail, Screens and Parting Shot are able to create situation where you really can't stop whatever stupid sweeper Grimmsnarl wants to subject you to, thus allowing to set up as it wishes and promptly win a game with little to no counterplay. I'll go into who I think the biggest offenders here are later, but what I will say is that Screens and Shed Tail are just a lethal combination. Dealing with one of them is already a pain in the ass, but both of them together is just absolutely stupid. Overall, I think that Shed Tail is way worse for the metagame, but if push came to shove, I wouldn't be opposed at all to banning Light Clay, or just Grimmsnale if we don't want any collat.

As for grimsnarl there is an easy counter:
Steel tera choice banded scyzor with bullet punch and technician ability.
It is a guaranteed OHKO on grimslarl.

As for shed tail, a mach punch from breloom can help you.