What do people mean by niche?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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A niche is a specific role that a certain mon covers in the meta. For example, while it may not be OU Tauros-Fire has a niche role as a check to mons like Chien-Pao, Scizor, Cinderace and to a certain extent Chi-Yu as well.
Not only could it work, it is actually quite good. Oftentimes, opponents will try to counterlead Cyclizar via a pivot, a faster threat, etc. To get around this, I have been using the following set (credit to lax who introduced me to it):
Cyclizar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shed Tail
- Thunderbolt
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
Essentially what this set attempts to do is punish traditional counters to lead Cyclizar like Dragapult, Booster Valiant, Chien-Pau, weather setters, and so on. It still has all the benefits of leading Cyclizar into a positive lead matchup like Amoonguss or Corviknight, it just can't do it as consistently throughout a match due to its obvious lack of bulk, limiting this set to more HO type squads. Additionally, it is amazing at scouting for scarfers like Chi-Yu, as Cyclizar is the fastest scarfer in the game; another excellent piece of its lead matchup ability. I like to pair it with Hatterene in particular to mess with Roar/Whirlwind users, completing the whole "nothing checks Cyclizar" dynamic OU's got going on right now.
Another meme-ish 
set incoming (though I swear ID/BP is not a meme)
Struggling with Unaware Walls? Walls in general? Looking for something to set manual Electric Terrain? Have I got the set for you!
Iron Hands @ Lum Berry/HDB/Terrain Extender
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric / Ice
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Electric Terrain
- Wild Charge
- Ice Punch
- Volt Switch
Electric Terrain + Quark Drive provides a 1.66 boost to your electric attacks. Not quite as good as a Swords Dance, but more than Band -- and, like Band, neither boost is ignored by Unaware. Speed EVs outrun uninvested Corv, so it can't just Defog your terrain away and force you to eat rocky helmet chip + wild charge recoil while it roosts in your face. Also has the benefit of outpacing Dirge, which, along with Lum Berry makes you not just Wisp bait, though Boots and Terrain Extender are also options to make you better at providing Terrain Support for the team at large.
Ice Punch over EQ because it has added utility against Ground and Grass types that want to switch in to Wild Charge/Volt Switch, and EQ doesn't quite OHKO Dirge even without Defensive investment. Volt Switch takes advantage of Iron Hands' absurd innate bulk to give you a slow pivot for safely bringing in other Quark Drive `mons.
It's also worth noting that Electric Terrain has the added benefit of preventing Dondozo's Rest. It also protects against Spore and isn't Haze-able, so while SD is going to be better against the non-Unaware walls overall, this set can Do Some Stuff.
Tera Ice improves those Ice Punch calcs if you find yourself in a match where Ice's terrible defensive profile is worth the added breaking power.
In a vacuum, this set is plainly worse than Band or SD, but the added support for things like EBelt
and Band 
(an under-explored set, IMO) have made it usable in some preliminary laddering.
set incoming (though I swear ID/BP is not a meme)Struggling with Unaware Walls? Walls in general? Looking for something to set manual Electric Terrain? Have I got the set for you!
Iron Hands @ Lum Berry/HDB/Terrain Extender
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric / Ice
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Electric Terrain
- Wild Charge
- Ice Punch
- Volt Switch
Electric Terrain + Quark Drive provides a 1.66 boost to your electric attacks. Not quite as good as a Swords Dance, but more than Band -- and, like Band, neither boost is ignored by Unaware. Speed EVs outrun uninvested Corv, so it can't just Defog your terrain away and force you to eat rocky helmet chip + wild charge recoil while it roosts in your face. Also has the benefit of outpacing Dirge, which, along with Lum Berry makes you not just Wisp bait, though Boots and Terrain Extender are also options to make you better at providing Terrain Support for the team at large.
Ice Punch over EQ because it has added utility against Ground and Grass types that want to switch in to Wild Charge/Volt Switch, and EQ doesn't quite OHKO Dirge even without Defensive investment. Volt Switch takes advantage of Iron Hands' absurd innate bulk to give you a slow pivot for safely bringing in other Quark Drive `mons.
It's also worth noting that Electric Terrain has the added benefit of preventing Dondozo's Rest. It also protects against Spore and isn't Haze-able, so while SD is going to be better against the non-Unaware walls overall, this set can Do Some Stuff.
Unaware 'Mons:
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 254-300 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 338-402 (67 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge in Electric Terrain: 288-340 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge in Electric Terrain: 208-246 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 368-434 (79.4 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 244-288 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Other Walls:
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 244-288 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Electric Terrain: 402-474 (100.7 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 204-240 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 254-300 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 338-402 (67 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge in Electric Terrain: 288-340 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge in Electric Terrain: 208-246 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 368-434 (79.4 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 244-288 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Other Walls:
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 244-288 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Electric Terrain: 402-474 (100.7 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 204-240 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tera Ice improves those Ice Punch calcs if you find yourself in a match where Ice's terrible defensive profile is worth the added breaking power.
In a vacuum, this set is plainly worse than Band or SD, but the added support for things like EBelt
and Band (an under-explored set, IMO) have made it usable in some preliminary laddering.
I agree with Finchinator. Even if you decide to run one of these for the surprise factor you can still easily slot Shed Tail. I think with Shed Tail slotted in these two could be potentially viable sets as outside of that niche anything that Cyclizar pulls off is just situational anyway. But there's really no downside to running the move since usually what is gained from Shed Tail (even if they know it's coming) is more valuable than what is gained by getting a single attack off from Cyclizar's generally middling attacking stats.
I honestly think Electric Terrain is heavely underexplored in this meta (because nobody likes pincurchin) and people are already strugglin to consistently counter Booster energy valiant, now with expert belt your basically god, or even specs, so that you can have scarf and specs, honeslty, valiant alone makes it worth it, but also having Threads as a spinner who gets boosted by it AND able to hold an item like AV, Boots or band is incredible
BlackKnight_Gawain
PUPL Champion
351 qualifed voters for OU tera, which I believe Finch said is the highest number of reqs ever gotten. I'm kinda curious what the record holder was previous to this, any idea Finchinator?
SM Zygarde was also above 300, but not quite this level. SS Dynamax is a not-so-distant third. Those are what I have off the top of my head
What about Zygarde contributed to it being a 300+ vote suspect? I understand Dynamax and Tera, as those are generational gimmicks, but why Zygarde? I'm pretty new to the scene, having started playing the last year of SS, so I don't really know much about the USUM metagame.
I believe it was due to it being the first suspect test in over a year since the last one for SM OU (Arena Trap)
BlackKnight_Gawain
PUPL Champion
Wow I don't remember SM Zygarde being that high in voter count, but this is also quite a while ago and I definitely skipped playing for reqs.
I'm not surprised dynamax was a close third, but with that and tera now I wouldn't be surprised if future generation gimmicks being controversial attract more reqs (but there's also just a growing playerbase to consider, more people are invested now). All around just interesting things to think about since we'll probably be seeing another suspect test soon.
Nah, Morning Sun makes Arcanine better imo though Tauros resists Dark which is nice.Honestly this isn't really bad, aside from it absorbing Chi-Yus Fire moves any other notable benefits to this?
This is more of a set I've been seeing in the mid to upper ladder:
Arcanine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Roar
Kinda does the same job as Tauros Paldea-Fire but I think Tauros does it better (slightly by a close margin) because of Raging Bull.
The Flash Fire Sp.Def set I posted above also switches into Gholdengo (its niche over Skeledirge is that it is not weak to Ghost), Special Iron Valiant, Specs Dragapult e.t.c. With Tera Fairy + Flash Fire it walls even Specs Chi-Yu (unless you get flinched). The reason I have Play Rough is to be able to punish Chi-Yu for staying in (Close Combat would work too). But it shouldn't be compared to Intimidate, they're different.
Can't wait for the next "On the radar" that the Council will release after tera suspect is finished. I feel like a lot of focus is gonna be on Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Golden Man, and Rage Fist but I feel like balance/ stall is very underrated. I'm a noob and I easily got to top 250 on the ladder with these sample teams.
I'm always curious on how good does a defensive Pokemon have to be for it to get banned. not saying we have a mon like that in gen 9 tho
I'm always curious on how good does a defensive Pokemon have to be for it to get banned. not saying we have a mon like that in gen 9 tho
NGL, there are some moments that I find Tera BS, but prematurely tera'ing does introduce some interesting limitations that I find kind of fun to exploit.
For instance, one match, I was up against a Chi-Yu. I mindlessly switched into my Garganacl only to get Specs Tera Blast Grass to the face and die. I'm like "Shit, maybe I should forfeit", as Garganacl was my SR user and only switch in to Chi-Yu. However, in terastalizing their Chi-Yu, they actually made it more exploitable for my threats in the back (I was running CB Meow and Boots Cinder). My opponent didn't have much counterplay to this core, and they could kinda just U-Turn into each other or Toxapex. While Chi-Yu would now deal a ton of damage every time it came in, the Grass-typing arguably made it more expoitable as it couldn't switch into anything on my team w/o taking a ton of damage. Even walls like Corviknight and Toxapex would be able to KO it w/ Brave Bird and Sludge Bomb which is actually what ended up happening later in the match.
If there is one thing I don't like about Tera, its not knowing what the opponent's Tera-type is. There are some key moments in the match where it is inevitable the opponent is going to Tera, so I Tera myself in as a countermeasure. However, what ends up happening is that the opponent doesn't have the Tera-type I am expecting and I just waste my Tera as a result. One notable instance of this happening is when I was up against a CB Dragonite that was slightly chipped w/ my Iron Valiant. I was anticipating the Tera Normal ESpeed, so I Tera Ghosted as a response. The Dragonite did end up Tera'ing but it went Tera... Ground? Didn't go for ESpeed and my Iron Valiant OHKOed it anyways with Moonblast. That Tera Ghost would bite me in the ass later in the match since I didn't resist Dark attacks anymore. Instances like this feel a bit common w/ Tera, which is somewhat dissappointed since I did like reading when the opponent would "pull the trigger" w/ DMax in SS and DMaxing myself to slow down their assault while taking minimal damage.
Court Change Cinderace is a bit more mid than I was initially thinking. It is a handy tool to have against screens and the ability to "clear" hazards in the face of Gholdengo is handy, but the issue is that it just does not do well vs any of the hazard setters. Its matchup against Garchomp is just bad so there is nothing just stopping Garchomp from clicking its Hazard buttons (SR and Spikes) and not giving a damn about Cinderace since it can't actually switch in. There are quite a few Garchomp players that are very overconfident against Cinderace and just setup hazards, which can be exploited w/ Wisp -> Court change, but this is hardly going to be a consistent strategy vs Chomp. Even though Corv has a horrible Gholdengo matchup, it can at least clear fields vs the key hazard setters like Chomp and Glimmora, which is very nice (Garganacl is not a fun MU tho).
For instance, one match, I was up against a Chi-Yu. I mindlessly switched into my Garganacl only to get Specs Tera Blast Grass to the face and die. I'm like "Shit, maybe I should forfeit", as Garganacl was my SR user and only switch in to Chi-Yu. However, in terastalizing their Chi-Yu, they actually made it more exploitable for my threats in the back (I was running CB Meow and Boots Cinder). My opponent didn't have much counterplay to this core, and they could kinda just U-Turn into each other or Toxapex. While Chi-Yu would now deal a ton of damage every time it came in, the Grass-typing arguably made it more expoitable as it couldn't switch into anything on my team w/o taking a ton of damage. Even walls like Corviknight and Toxapex would be able to KO it w/ Brave Bird and Sludge Bomb which is actually what ended up happening later in the match.
If there is one thing I don't like about Tera, its not knowing what the opponent's Tera-type is. There are some key moments in the match where it is inevitable the opponent is going to Tera, so I Tera myself in as a countermeasure. However, what ends up happening is that the opponent doesn't have the Tera-type I am expecting and I just waste my Tera as a result. One notable instance of this happening is when I was up against a CB Dragonite that was slightly chipped w/ my Iron Valiant. I was anticipating the Tera Normal ESpeed, so I Tera Ghosted as a response. The Dragonite did end up Tera'ing but it went Tera... Ground? Didn't go for ESpeed and my Iron Valiant OHKOed it anyways with Moonblast. That Tera Ghost would bite me in the ass later in the match since I didn't resist Dark attacks anymore. Instances like this feel a bit common w/ Tera, which is somewhat dissappointed since I did like reading when the opponent would "pull the trigger" w/ DMax in SS and DMaxing myself to slow down their assault while taking minimal damage.
Court Change Cinderace is a bit more mid than I was initially thinking. It is a handy tool to have against screens and the ability to "clear" hazards in the face of Gholdengo is handy, but the issue is that it just does not do well vs any of the hazard setters. Its matchup against Garchomp is just bad so there is nothing just stopping Garchomp from clicking its Hazard buttons (SR and Spikes) and not giving a damn about Cinderace since it can't actually switch in. There are quite a few Garchomp players that are very overconfident against Cinderace and just setup hazards, which can be exploited w/ Wisp -> Court change, but this is hardly going to be a consistent strategy vs Chomp. Even though Corv has a horrible Gholdengo matchup, it can at least clear fields vs the key hazard setters like Chomp and Glimmora, which is very nice (Garganacl is not a fun MU tho).
Looking at the current Scizor analysis for SV, what's the reasoning behind the 20 Speed EVs on the Band set and the Tera Electric options (I'm assuming bulky waters or something)?
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I think there were a couple more sprinkled throughout the lower tiers, but OU’s only had Mega Sableye and Wynaut/Wobbuffet (back before anything else got Shadow Tag and before Wynaut and Wobbuffet got anything else). Defensive mons almost never catch a ban because they’re never overtly broken like the “unga bunga click attack 6 times” mons; they tend to require some modicum of skill to play properly. Even the Mega Sableye ban was controversial, though that was partially because it happened mere days before Gen 7 came out and everyone stopped caring about Gen 6.
Funbro didn't got banned but created the infinite battles clause-
Both of them seem to be to outspeed Corviknight and nuke it with a strong SE hit.
I wouldn't call hitting Wynaut/Wobb a defensive ban when their purpose was to snipe something that couldn't escape. They don't really wall things.
You could argue Deoxys-D was a defensive ban, but it was also used on offensive teams to spread hazards super consistently.
Great Tusk is the best mon in the meta by a wide margin in my opinion (aside from Chi-Yu because he should be banned), and I think nobody even uses his best set. I feel pretty confident that bulk up Great Tusk is the single best pokemon in OU right now
Great Tusk @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Bulk Up
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Bulk Up
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
The reason I think this is the best Tusk set is because he turns his ability as one of the best defensive mons in the tier into an offensive strength; almost everyone that you switch Tusk into to check defensively he can set up on, and once he gets a rapid spin and bulk up he's one of the best win conditions possible. He has an insane matchup against sun and hyper offense in general because he can just set up alongside other set up mons. He can set up on a lot of dragonites, roaring moons, annihilape, kingambit, ting lu and so much more. The only issue with this set is that you're missing knock off, but I think that only really matters in the matchup vs air balloon Gholdengo because otherwise eq + CC is always good enough coverage. I like CC > Body Press because the base power is a lot better and by the time you're pressing your fighting move anyways you're probably already bulk up boosted and running through the opposing team. The rapid spin speed boost really puts this guy way over the edge. I like tera ground because a strong earthquake lets you set up on and get past guys like annihilape and it can also let you soak up a hit that the opponent thinks will be super effective and then spin on them and just win the game. I guess you could run tera flying or whatever people run with Tusk but I definitely prefer ground to anything. The utility from this set I believe is just unmatched from anything we've seen in pokemon; one of the undoubted best defensive pokemon that automatically turns into a win condition on the regular
Do we know if covert cloak will work on the hazard stack effects of Stone Axe/Ceaseless Edge? Seems like it might end up as a great item on something like pex or dozo as an anti-garg, anti-kleavor, anti-samurott-h tech when home drops.
Also want to give a shout to futureport (futurereception?) slowking. Been having some mild success with it around 1800 elo even though it's paired with cetitan which is a waste of a slot 9/10 games. Most of the meta right now isnt prepared for future sight + booster valiant, and fs + garg can be an annoying defensive combo to switch in to as well. Slowking does struggle to come in against some teams, although it likes switching in to torkoal, ting-lu, and defensive tusk which are fairly prevalent
Also want to give a shout to futureport (futurereception?) slowking. Been having some mild success with it around 1800 elo even though it's paired with cetitan which is a waste of a slot 9/10 games. Most of the meta right now isnt prepared for future sight + booster valiant, and fs + garg can be an annoying defensive combo to switch in to as well. Slowking does struggle to come in against some teams, although it likes switching in to torkoal, ting-lu, and defensive tusk which are fairly prevalent
I'm EXTREMELY confident that Covert Cloak won't stop Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge from laying hazards since the hazard-laying effect doesn't affect the target Pokemon but the field itself.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge have the “secondary” flag, so they’re boosted by Sheer Force. I think that also means the hazard-setting effect is blocked by Shield Dust and Covert Cloak, but that’ll have to be tested on cartridge post-Home.
Just tested it myself. It seems that Cloak doesn't stop Ceaseless Edge/Stone Axe, which I thought was the case from my experience in BH. Probably for the exact reason you stated, same way Court Change and Tidy Up don't activate GaG.
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