Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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i think you underestimate the utility of covert cloak on pex. while nacl is the primary reason to run it over other items, it has a several other applications that are actually quite nice to have on a mon like pex. for example, you are never forced out by a sdef drop from dengo/pult's shadow ball, nor are you bothered by def drops from chien-pao's crunch. you also don't have to worry about flinches from a certain fish's dark pulse. in terms of general utility it actually does better than something like payapa berry did, which was only useful in scenarios where you faced one of the specific mons that you used said item for

Still arent those like very situational cases?
 

termi

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Still arent those like very situational cases?
sure but compared to some other items defensive mons have had to run over the generations it has a lot more going for it. people used to run stuff like shed shell corviknight which is absolutely useless outside of the ability to escape magnezone. nacl seems like a really big threat and i wouldn't be opposed to a suspect test down the line but i don't think that making pex run covert cloak is necessarily a sign that it's broken, unless you want to argue that any mon that forces unconventional item choices is by definition broken or unhealthy
 
The Covert Cloak talk is definitely really interesting because I can see both sides of it. On the one hand, no, it isn’t like Shed Shell where it essentially has no use outside of one matchup, (with Gholdengo in particular getting a lot of benefit from it due to synergy with Good As Gold), and even so, running a tool such as a move or item specifically for one matchup doesn’t inherently mean that the Pokémon that the tool is being run for is broken, just extremely important for the tool user to be able to effectively take on. On the other hand, let’s be honest, it probably would be considered a really sub-optimal item on pretty much every Pokémon considering running it if Garganacl wasn’t an element of the tier, as the benefits it provides other than blocking Salt Cure are usually too niche in comparison to the near-universal benefits certain items have like Boots, Leftovers, and the Choice items. Of course, it’s not like Covert Cloak is the ONLY way one can splash some anti-Garganacl tech into a Pokémon’s moveset; just a page or so back Substitute was brought up, a move with tons of utility on a lot of Pokémon with near-universal distribution. I think the uptick in Covert Cloak usage is definitely notable and something to consider, but is also hardly a Q.E.D. that Garg is broken. Compared to something like Chi-Yu, I think Garg’s impact on the metagame and the adaptations that are being made to play around it really need more time to be observed to make a call one way or another; even a suspect right now would feel too preemptive for me, but I could see one happening down the line for sure.
 

awyp

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The idea that there is zero counterplay outside Covert Cloak or Sub is just a complete falsehood. There's plenty of strong teams that have had tons of success on the ladder that have neither of those. Specifically with Covert Cloak, you basically completely invalidate Gargancal. To continue with Volcarona example, you could easily raw psychic once early game to pop the berry, and then break through the Toxapex later on. There's absolutely nothing a Garganacl can do to Salt Cure something with Covert Cloak.
Yup but what team usually doesn’t have a Pokémon that has Knock Off to be fair? (Especially in the upper ladder)

I’ve been reading your posts you have a fair opinion about Garganacl, by looking at the positives and negatives of how good it is and what it’s weak to. As Stardust said above once Chi-Yu gets banned your only real switch-in on the physical set is Gholdengo but you have to safely switch in on a Protect / Iron Defense / Recover you can’t afford to switch in on a Salt Cure (If Gholdengo has recover yeah maybe). I’ve stated this before what makes Nacl broken is Tera, depending on the Tera it walls it’s true base counters. Running Covert Cloak for mainly one Pokémon (I understand the arguments with Chien Pao Crunch, etc. but in reality you’re mainly running it for Nacl let’s be real) is nasty metaplay for one Pokémon

I am new to this game so I did some research on Payapa Berry Toxapex and the most I found was its use for Z-Psychic Volcarona and Tapu Lele. I think there's a big difference between this tech and being forced to run Covert Cloak just to deal with 1 Pokemon. Garganacl has no counter-play outside of Covert Cloak and slapping Substitute on half of your offensive Pokemon. There is plenty of counter-play to Z-Psychic Volcarona outside of Payapa Berry Toxapex. Those builds just run it because they can't find a more solid answer / revenge killer. Also the Worry Seed Ferrothorn example is bad. Gliscor actually had splashable answers that weren't garbage like M-Latias, Keldeo, Kyurem, Weavile, or like any strong Water- / Ice-type attack in general.... Gliscor also doesn't have Salt Cure. I think the main disconnect here is I don't think you realize how ridiculous this move is. If Gliscor had Salt Cure, best believe that thing would be banned.

Agree to disagree I guess. I will personally be voting ban whenever the Garganacl suspect test goes up.
Its a matter of time to be honest if Tera stays the way it is at least a couple of months, we’re just waiting to suspect the bigger issues (Chi-Yu, Cyclizar, Ape, and Chien Pao). After that though I can see Nacl being suspect and I’ll be voting to ban as well.
 
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I dont really understand this reasoning. When you want to ban Chi-Yu but dont want to ban the same mon but physical. Like doesnt it 1-2 shot every pokemon in format with rocks/hazards up and have a far better speed tier?

Like its ok to have wallbreakers if they require at least some sort of setup, not just I have a choice band so I should sweep your entire team if my check is dead. Chi Yu just hits so hard and its obviously gonna get banned so this thing will take its place if its not banned in the same time.
Even though Adamant has been the new nature with band, sacrificing Jolly just makes it the same speed as Chi-Yu. However, a lot of Pokémon can take on Chien-Pao. Also with heavy duty boots, it is more manageable. I prefer boots since I don’t like getting chipped a quarter and meeting priority moves afterwards. Chi-Yu does impressive damage but Chien-Pao can as well but it doesn’t seem as broken as the fish.
 
Right now Covert Cloak is mainly for Garganacl, but you will certainly apreciate the item when home drops, with Ass Greninja, Galarian Moltres and Tornadus-T haxing their way through Toxapex and similar Mons.
I think this is the argument that has brought me to the "running cloak doesn't make garg broken" side. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think it's suspect worthy, and my opinion is still very open for change, but running cloak does not automatically mean it is broken. The posts about it stopping shadow ball and crunch defence drops hold a lot of merit in my mind as well. I remember near the end of gen 8, I think it was NU banned Blastoise because it was very strong and also had a very strong ability to fish for flinches. The teir deemed this rng aspect of Blastoise pushed it over the edge and made it broken. However, if covert cloak existed in gen 8, Blastoise may not have been banned and I'm sure that wouldn't have been the only thing covert cloak could have helped with. I just wasn't super active in NU, so I can't think of anything rn. It probably would've been great from stopping scald burns from other bulky waters. There, that's a big one.
On a side note: what is the exact description of covert cloak in game? Does it stop all secondary effects? Or just keep your pokemon safe from secondary effects? If it is the former, does that mean that cloak could also potentially stop rapid spin from clearing hazards? I imagine it doesn't stop this on showdown, but what about in game? I'd go and test it myself, but I don't actually have it and probably won't for at least half a month.
 
My opinion for the on the radar stuff:
:Chi-yu: Quick Ban - This has been the most oppressing pokemon in the format. Able to break even the most special of walls with east, Chi-Yu needs to go. From Tera Fire specs, to the later HDB tera grass/fairy sets that even use nasty plot, it's making this format rough.

:Cyclizar: Suspect - I don't think shed tail should be the ban choice here. Cyclizar I find OK, but it does break a few pokemon, and you need to be careful around it. However, with a lot of the high power mons around, it can struggle to achieve its potential.

:Annihilape: Quick Ban - This mon, alongside Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao are really bringing the format to its knees. Rage Fist + Insane bulk is big, but taunt, rest, etc. are sending it out of control. It completely invalidates any tanking options, leaving it only open to status from faster mons. It needs to go.

:Garganacl: No Action - Haven't had many issues with it recently, and strong special hits usually find ways to break it. After the quick bans, needs re-evaluating, but the likes of iron valiant, gholdengo and cloaked regen mons can keep it in its place.

:Espartha: Quick Ban/Suspect - Needs action. While, yeah, could have been OK outside of tera and shed tail, espartha just needs a turn or 2 and it sweeps, with little to no counters. Even Skeledirge struggles with it. Needs to go.

:Chien-Pao: Quick Ban - No need for a suspect here. Being able to break the strongest phys walls in the game makes it a massive issue for the format. While Dondozo can handle most of it, Banded and Tera variants are causing problems left right and center. Just needs to go.

:Dragonite: No Action - Even with E-Speed, I find it struggles a bit. Dondozo and Garg can handle it, and Corv can, if it lacks fire punch. There are other variants that see some play too, so I don't think action is needed.

:Gholdengo: No Action/Suspect - Gholdengo is fine imo. It's evolved the hazard game, swinging it far the other way from HDB from last gen. It has its issues, and weaknesses, so should be fine into the current format.


One Pokemon I thought would have been on there, but seems to have flown under the radar, is :Iron Valiant:. Iron Valiant is a bit problematic right now. The combination of really good STABS, Coverage, amazing mixed stats and a top tier speed stat makes this thing an absolute monster. It's got the offensive presence of weavile, but able to go either side or boost or run choice. It's got trick to cripple walls on specs sets, and, it can give itself a one time free scarf with booster energy. The mon is a menace, and very likely a future suspect.
 

1LDK

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is :Iron Valiant:. Iron Valiant is a bit problematic right now. The combination of really good STABS, Coverage, amazing mixed stats and a top tier speed stat makes this thing an absolute monster. It's got the offensive presence of weavile, but able to go either side or boost or run choice. It's got trick to cripple walls on specs sets, and, it can give itself a one time free scarf with booster energy. The mon is a menace, and very likely a future suspect.
In my personal experience, i have never had any problem with it, the CM Booster energy sets are scary but only in paper, is frail from the start so that turn from base is kinda important, and the SD sets are rare due to the balance cores of amoongus/ting lu and rotom wash starting to adapt to it in some ways, the specs one is a fucking menace ill give you that, i love that set a lot, and last time i saw band was like 10 years ago, this is where i do another shameless plugin of :Sylveon: who stops dead cold every single special variant

i asked some time ago what were your favorite ways to stop valiant and i wanna ask again, what do you guys like to use
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
i asked some time ago what were your favorite ways to stop valiant and i wanna ask again, what do you guys like to use
I just use Among Us for this. Aside from psyshock, it can barely do anything and risks getting spored nor can it boost because I always put clear smog on it. A healthy Bambi is also helpful as long as Galladevoir still has a teammate so I can get rid of that annoying speed booster energy with whirlwind and that special attack ruin ability is really handy. Outside of priority moves like Scizor, I would often use tera steel scarf Garchomp to beat it, assuming I have weakened it of course
 

awyp

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In my personal experience, i have never had any problem with it, the CM Booster energy sets are scary but only in paper, is frail from the start so that turn from base is kinda important, and the SD sets are rare due to the balance cores of amoongus/ting lu and rotom wash starting to adapt to it in some ways, the specs one is a fucking menace ill give you that, i love that set a lot, and last time i saw band was like 10 years ago, this is where i do another shameless plugin of :Sylveon: who stops dead cold every single special variant

i asked some time ago what were your favorite ways to stop valiant and i wanna ask again, what do you guys like to use
I 2nd this, Iron Valiant out of the new Pokémon that get mentioned on this thread is probably the least broken. Yes it's speed tier is pretty good with Energy Booster (546) but you have to scout out to see if its mixed, Calm Mind, special based, physical based etc. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it never gets suspect tested because I genuinely think its pretty easy to handle for the most part the biggest benefit for it is just determining what set it's running that's the toughest part for Valiant which isn't much. Iron Valiants downfall is not it's versatility but more so it can only run 4 moves maximum so you're always losing some sort of coverage especially if you're adding Calm Mind / Swords Dance.
 
Honestly, I wouldn't be against a Garganacl suspect. Even with a typing as poor as pure Rock it lives a stupendous amount of things, but it can shed that typing too with Tera. Salt Cure is the easiest and free-est button ever to click as it nearly always causes some progress (Cloak counters aside). All the other things on the radar I only see every few games, but it feels like Garg is in almost every game and it is always impactful. And unlike Tusk (to name another very common mon), it requires a lot more during teambuilding to deal with it.

*note: not to say I think this is higher prio than Chi-Yu and Cyclizar (maybe Ape) who deserve a QB, but I see merit in suspecting it.
 
Alright, so, I've been experimenting with mixed Iron Valiant sets. Special-biased seems to have been the Hot Thing so far in order to maximize Moonblast, but Physical-biased mixed seems...really good?

First up, the Choice set:
Iron Valiant @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting / Fairy / Dark
EVs: 224 Atk / 108 SpA / 176 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Moonblast
- Trick/Thunderbolt

176+ Speed outpaces 252+ Speed Iron Treads in case you trick away your scarf, need to check one that's already at +1 due to Spin, Ebooster, or Scarf (if anybody runs that). You can't speed tie other Scarf/Booster Valiant's, but who wants to bet a game on a speed tie, anyway? Stealing a few more EVs from Atk into SpA adds just enough juice to Moonblast to make it really shine:

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Turns out it doesn't take much to blow up most of the fairy-weak `mons in the game (many of whom are also weak to CC):
108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chien-Pao: 372-438 (123.5 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 350-414 (119.4 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cyclizar: 372-440 (108.4 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 332-392 (104.7 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Quaquaval: 332-392 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO through Marvel Scale

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 296-350 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 300-354 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 204-242 (48.1 - 57%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

108 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 164-194 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile, Close Combat from a heavily invested base 130 attack is just vicious in this meta (as Great Tusk has taught us), and Knock provides a more reliable mid-ground play than Shadow Ball from the Special Attacking set in the case that there are still Ghosts on the field. Thunderbolt provides a stronger option against Corv, Pex (kinda), and Dondozo, while Trick lets you cripple defensive `mons. I tend to prefer Trick on the choice set, but pick your poison.

Tera Dark helps the Gholdengo MU (nets a OHKO against Scarf and a 2HKO against max bulk) and that's about it, but that also isn't nothing. Fairy or Fighting boost your STABs to insane levels, while Steel is always an option to maximally muck up your defensive profile.

This same EV template works for Band, too, obviously, in case you need this calc in your life:
224 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 252-298 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then there's this set that I've been really enjoying In my efforts to see how bad Manual Electric Terrain can possibly be (spoiler alert: it's...weird? ):

Iron Valiant @ Expert Belt
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: It's all good (Fighting/Fairy/Dark/Ground/Steel/Poison/???)
EVs: 184 Atk / 148 SpA / 176 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Tera Blast
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt

The EV spread hits that 343 speed bench mark, then pumps enough into Atk to make sure speed gets boosted, then the rest in SpA. Very few `mons care to switch into this. Pretty much anything slower than you is a threat to be 2HKO'd by CC/Moonblast into relevant coverage. And in Electric Terrain, that's....uh...carry the one...almost everything. The big downfall is other Valiants, since you'll never out-speed them under terrain, but:

CC Targets:
184 Atk Expert Belt Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 360-425 (89.1 - 105.1%)
184 Atk Expert Belt Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 370-439 (71.9 - 85.4%)

Knockoff Targets:
184 Atk Expert Belt Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 254-300 (80.6 - 95.2%)
184 Atk Expert Belt Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 254-300 (67.1 - 79.3%)
184 Atk Expert Belt Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 245-288 (59.6 - 70%)

Thunderbolt targets, no terrain:
148 SpA Expert Belt Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 194-230 (38.4 - 45.6%)
148 SpA Expert Belt Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 233-276 (58.3 - 69.1%)
148 SpA Expert Belt Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 146-173 (48 - 56.9%)

Thunderbolt targets with terrain:
148 SpA Expert Belt Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 252-298 (50 - 59.1%)
148 SpA Expert Belt Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight in Electric Terrain: 302-358 (75.6 - 89.7%)
148 SpA Expert Belt Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 190-223 (62.5 - 73.3%)

Tera Ground makes this extra cheeky, maximizing EBelt coverage (I think), without sacrificing coverage for Dengo and Dirge while also adding Clodsire to the list of things you wreck. Tera Steel/Poison gives you something to hit tera fairies with and protects you from them in kind. But Tera Blast pushes you into a place where you need to tera to hit maximum utility (and subtracts the general purpose usefulness of knock).

Obviously, the whole thing is super-customizable. You can also forgo speed control in favor of breaking power under terrain by stealing 8 SpA EVs into Atk. You can do 252 SpA/80 Atk to maximize Moonblast/TBolt damage. The world is your oyster. Even without Terrain, this thing is a menace.

I've got too many replays to sort through right now, but I'll try to edit in some of both sets. A couple of other lessons learned from E Terrain shenanigans:

First, don't bother with Volt Switch on E Terrain Iron Hands. It needs CC in order to better dial its own number delete as many things as possible under terrain. Heavy Slam is also a strong option over Ice Punch, especially paired with Chien Pao or similar to handle Clodsire and Amoongus.

Finally, substitute is an amazing option on Iron Moth. Dodging status and endgame Kingambit Sucker Punches is a godsend. 24 Def EVs are all it takes to absorb a Salt Cure after Teraing (or a Clodsire EQ if tera grass, which is my preference). 100 EVs lets your sub survive a Sash Breloom Mach Punch before tera-ing. I've considered ditching Sludge Wave and running it with Sub + Morning Sun + Fiery Dance + Coverage, but I'd need to tweak my team a lot more to handle fairies if I go that route.
 
Burning hot take: We should begin putting a heavy emphasis on non-competitive strategies. To make things simple, I'm going to define competitiveness as the amount of importance in battle decisions have on the outcome of a battle.

I'm going to start with one example, because I think its the best one at the moment, but there's much more in the meat at the moment.

Dual screens should be outright banned. First of all, I want to clarify that I don't think that a dual screen strategy is over-powered in the same way most things that are suspected/banned are. But I DO believe it has a massive negative impact on the competitiveness in the game, especially in a meta where tera is legal.

Dual screens has always been one of the most match-up fish strategies to exist, preying on balacne/bulky offense type builds and removing their defensive options by way of making your mons unkillable by their attacks. This has been further exacerbated by the death of toxic as an option. While dual screens is largely bad against defensive teams, who are able to exploit set up mons, and can struggle against very offensive teams due to the tempo loss of setting the screens up, it remains a nightmare for balance teams to deal with, as they play the entire match on the back foot. IMO dual screens has such an insane matchup against balance, that you have to run an answer that prevents lead grimmsnarl from getting started or lend a ridiculous amount of team space to beat common screens abusers while they are under screens, these options are very specific.

A bit of history on my experience with dual screens; In gen 4, a user made an RMT on the forums and called his strategy hyper offense. The strategy was simple, but electrifyingly powerful. He ran dual screens lead (i believe it was azelf) and 5 set up sweepers. His goal was to never predict, never switch, and only to spam set up and attack. AFAIK, this was the actual origin of the term 'hyper offense' and throughout gen 4 refered strictly to this strategy, and when that team starting hitting the ladder, it was truly a painful experience. As someone who exclusively plays balance/Bulky offense, these teams would continuously thrash me. As they grew in popularity and I began understanding the strategy, I had to make major adjustments to my team building and realized I had to put in a huge amount of team space just to handle this, and it was still unfavorable. Now was that strategy overpowered? No. It was incredibly exploitable by common stall teams at the time which regularly ran 5 physical walls+blissey, the team just didn't have the fire power to beat stall. But, it was fantastic against the most common teams at the time. I really disliked the impact the matchup had on the game.

What I'm trying to say is, strategies that exist to diminish the interplay between players should be heavily looked at, matchup fishing is not competitive.

An example where I think this was done well is BP (baton pass).. I wasn't active when BP actually got banned, but was happy to find out it was. Even in gen 4, the strategy was similar to dual screens. A matchup fish. BP was very exploitable at the time, as lead smeargle was rarely able to do its thing given the prevalnce of stuff like lead taunt azelf, lum berry machamp, etc. Additionally, roar/whirlwind were incredibly common in gen 5. BP teams had to run things like mr mime with soundproof to avoid being phazed, if they weren't able to get their ingrain smeargle off. The team was pretty bad overall, but given the right matchup, it was neigh impossible to beat. Regardless, nobody liked going up against that team style.

Well, end of rant. I know most people will laugh this off, or completely disagree with my take, or possibly just call me a scrub for losing to dual screens (which is not the case mind you). But oh well
 
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Right now Covert Cloak is mainly for Garganacl, but you will certainly apreciate the item when home drops, with Ass Greninja, Galarian Moltres and Tornadus-T haxing their way through Toxapex and similar Mons.
Minor heads up from the Datamine thread, but unless there's a big patch to something, I don't think Ash-Greninja is dropping with Home due to how Battle Bond has changed. Goltres and Torn-T are still worth the mention, and some other major notes in that same Datamine I would cite include Sneasler (Poison Touch, and Dire Claw), Volcanion (Scald/Steam Eruption), and if it works on this move type, Sharpness Samurott-H (Ceaseless Edge's Spike-laying effect)
 
I've read the entirety of this thread and I have to say that, even though it's universally known that Chi-yu should be the first ban post Tera-suspect, the pro-keep Chi-yu arguments are somehow much more convincing than the pro-keep Chien-pao arguments. And honestly, I don't think I want to run Dondozo in 100% of my teams just to have an answer against mega weavile.
 
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In a meta where well timed Teras are essential to flip games around and make progress, garg leading and clicking Tera turn 1 speaks volumes about its strength.
I think it speaks to the relative lack of certain defensive answers, mostly. The fact that Garg can also be your rocks setter makes it a pretty safe turn 1 choice, and if you were going to use it to fill a defensive hole, it has to tera some time. Why not while it's doing its job?

Garg is very generically powerful, to be sure, but that's just causing it to be applied as a more universal answer - Recover on a 100/130/90 mon is a hell of a drug. If turn 1 tera is generically worth it on Garg, and Garg winds up banned, you might even see some other questionably-typed mons rise up to fill its shoes.
 
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awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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I've read the entirety of this thread and I have to say that, even though it's universally known that Chi-yu should be the first ban post Tera-suspect, the pro-keep Chi-yu arguments are somehow much more convincing than the pro-keep Chien-pao arguments. And honestly, I don't think I want to run Dondozo in 100% of my teams just to have an answer against mega weavile.
Sadly sometimes even Dondozo loses to Chien Pao (You can't switch-in if it tera types into Dark)

Calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
 
ChiYu QB is a given, but APE, CHIENPAO and CYCLIZAR are a lot more centralizing and even QB worthy/oppresing than Spartha, Spartha while it can be very powerful is kinda niche and needs some conditions or very favorable match up to actually sweep. (I still consider it might be suspect worthy, but a lot lower priority than the others.

Im even finding most people agree those 3 need to go as they are a bit too much. Same with me i love them but after this few months its clear they arent healthy.
Pao is strong but has terrible defensive typing, weak to SR, and can be RK fairly easy.
I don't think it should be suspected until we give it more time, same with Garg.
These mons might be OP, but I think more time to settle is needed before a suspect.
Cycle is nowhere near as problematic as it was a few weeks ago, and doesn't seem very centralizing atm.
 
3 bans seem likely. Potentially as early as later this weekend.
I can safely assume Chi-Yu and ape are the first two and my guess would be that Cyclizar is the third. I’m perfectly content with the council banning Chi-Yu and could be persuaded for ape too, but this seems like too many quick bans without a clear community consensus (I would say only Chi Yu has a clear ban consensus at this point). I get that suspects are time consuming and we just did one, but imo that’s a necessary evil.

I almost always support what the council does and think finch does an excellent job leading the tier, but just wanted to throw this out there.
 
3 bans seem likely. Potentially as early as later this weekend.
Cheese-Yu, Ape, and Espa are my QB guesses.
Although, I heard you confirmed that combination is incorrect by someone in chat lol

Pao and Garg suspects after that.

I mean if I had to bet money, it's Yu, Ape, and Cycle just on principle.
The meta has done a good job at adapting to Cylce, but I can see how, just as a concept, and on the principle of the thing, that shed tail is uncomp.
No one would really miss these 3 mons, and the meta wouldn't be worse without them.

QB on Pao would be very weird. We've had harder hitting mons in previous gens with literally no switch ins.
I don't even use Pao, and it feels very cheesy sometimes to vs, but it deserves a suspect, not a QB, imo.
It doesn't fit on that many teams, unlike Garg.
Both Pao and Garg are similar as in they feel broken sometimes, but with time they may just be high viability mons.
Or broken.
But the community should decide on these boys, at least give us something to do lol

Also, with Espa, please consider a QB, the MU fish is unreal and it strangles builder.
Unlike other MU fish such as Rain, there really aren't soft checks to Espa Fairy/Fighting.
You legit need a stupidly dedicated wall such as Dark Clod lol
If I have a team, I don't have to worry about auto-losing to Rain since I have mons that stop that but are also good for other MU.
It's just a v uncomp mon and really adds nothing to the meta besides hurting us in builder.
 
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