Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Finchinator]

You gonna reach a hundred days, my assumption is we're going to have to wait a while for a suspect test because from the last quickban vote, iirc Chien Pao got 0 votes for ban so if that's how the council is feeling about it 1 week ago I don't know if feelings have changed since then. There will have to be a lot of push back from the community and a potential survey maybe.

Council vote should not have too much bearing on future suspects considering that wanting a quicban, which requires an overwhelming amount of evidence, is not always the same as supporting a suspect, which only requires a desire to let the community to decide on something. We have discussed Pao and, like some other Pokemon, it will be included in the tiering survey in the near future.

For now, it is best we let things rest for a few more days and tackle this as per normal procedure come the appropriate time, of course.

 

[Dhrabb]

Y'all should try tera ground banded Tyranitar, it's not gonna push it to OU by any means but it's really fun.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Y'all should try tera ground banded Tyranitar, it's not gonna push it to OU by any means but it's really fun.

tyranitar's gonna end up back in ou somehow, i just know it. i've been playing this game for 20 years and one thing i learned is that my boy ttar always comes out on top eventually

Appreciate this and the explanations are fantastic!!! Great job here.

But also want to note that an official thread on the Tera Type Index coming (and will cover even more Pokemon) after the SPL Power Rankings are done this weekend, so probably sometime next week. I will likely keep it synced up with the VR as the generation continues, too, so each Pokemon deemed viable will have a listing and it will remain updated with the metagame's development as well.

Council vote should not have too much bearing on future suspects considering that wanting a quicban, which requires an overwhelming amount of evidence, is not always the same as supporting a suspect, which only requires a desire to let the community to decide on something. We have discussed Pao and, like some other Pokemon, it will be included in the tiering survey in the near future.

For now, it is best we let things rest for a few more days and tackle this as per normal procedure come the appropriate time, of course.

turns out dark finch also double-posts

 

[Vurnoise]

What is the likelihood some currently banned Mons will be suspect tested once home releases and there are more Pokémon which may make them manageable?

 

[Luigi Bros.]

What is the likelihood some currently banned Mons will be suspect tested once home releases and there are more Pokémon which may make them manageable?

My guess is that Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Palafin, and Chi-Yu are gonna stay banned while Annihilape, Cyclizar, and Houndstone may be tested.

 

[viivian]

tyranitar's gonna end up back in ou somehow, i just know it. i've been playing this game for 20 years and one thing i learned is that my boy ttar always comes out on top eventually

agreed, even if tyranitar isn't exactly in the best spot in the current meta, it's certainly going to make a comeback later into the generation. it happened in SS and i have no doubt in my mind that it will happen again

 

[Mega Breloom]

while Annihilape, Cyclizar, and Houndstone may be tested.

Cyclizar already was considered ban wrothy with a few viable set up mons, can't see it returning to from Ubers if the tier is going to get more set up mons.
Just imagine Magearna with a free substitute...

 

[Lectrys]

My guess is that Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Palafin, and Chi-Yu are gonna stay banned while Annihilape, Cyclizar, and Houndstone may be tested.

I suspect that Cyclizar won't be pulled back down (Regenerator Shed Tail won't suddenly just lose viability, especially since most of the best stuck-in-HOME mons are slower than Cyclizar), while the Basculegions stay for just long enough to get Last Respects banned instead of Houndstone. Annihilape will likely be pulled back down, though - Tornadus-T and especially Enamorus will give it a hard time. (And I guess Annihilape gets to waste turns like crazy against (Illusion) Zoroark-H.)

If Gholdengo gets suspect tested out the door (I actually think that the moment they're about to announce the Gholdengo suspect test (after the Chien-Pao suspect test finishes), HOME compatibility is released), it'll be pulled back down as one of the best Enamorus answers (Scarf Gholdengo outspeeds and OHKOs non-Scarf Enamo, defensive Gholdengo variants can avoid the OHKO after Stealth Rock from both Specs Enamo Earth Power and Choice Band Iron Valiant Knock Off and OHKO both back with Make It Rain, Physical Contrary Enamo ain't getting past Gholdengo). And it isn't too shabby against Torn-T, forces some funny reactions from Magearna, chips Heatran significantly, and makes Slowking-G hate being there.

If Chi-Yu picks up a few more hard checks from HOME (part of me doubts it), it might be pulled down.

 

[Finchinator]

What is the likelihood some currently banned Mons will be suspect tested once home releases and there are more Pokémon which may make them manageable?

Some will likely be back.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

I feel like I haven't seen discussion in a while that isn't home speculation or further ban/dnb calls, so let me throw out a question for y'all:

Q. People who were running Chi-Yu and/or Ape on most teams, what are you finding success in replacing them with?


Iron Moth feels like a good Chi-Yu replacement in some ways, but I can't quite see anything fulfilling the same anti-stall/scary sweeper role Annihilape had going without some extra support. Anyway, figured I'd throw that out there to see what people's thoughts are right now :)

 

[Wolf-X]

I feel like I haven't seen discussion in a while that isn't home speculation or further ban/dnb calls, so let me throw out a question for y'all:

Q. People who were running Chi-Yu and/or Ape on most teams, what are you finding success in replacing them with?


Iron Moth feels like a good Chi-Yu replacement in some ways, but I can't quite see anything fulfilling the same anti-stall/scary sweeper role Annihilape had going without some extra support. Anyway, figured I'd throw that out there to see what people's thoughts are right now :)

Ape just slap eviolite Primeape, its discount and kinda weaker mainly bc item dif but has some slight advantages i guess.

ChiYu u can use adamant CB ChienPao or Iron Moth (specs and/or sun are the closest imo) to kinda fill its role.

 

[Mewthree69]

I feel like I haven't seen discussion in a while that isn't home speculation or further ban/dnb calls, so let me throw out a question for y'all:

Q. People who were running Chi-Yu and/or Ape on most teams, what are you finding success in replacing them with?


Iron Moth feels like a good Chi-Yu replacement in some ways, but I can't quite see anything fulfilling the same anti-stall/scary sweeper role Annihilape had going without some extra support. Anyway, figured I'd throw that out there to see what people's thoughts are right now :)

I just made new teams from scratch. I was making my old teams under a different mindset, one where I had to prepare for these two + Cyclizar while also considering them as potential options. I was running stuff like mental herb toxapex + dark resist cores to deal with them, which aren't as useful anymore

 

[Soiramio3000]

Q. People who were running Chi-Yu and/or Ape on most teams, what are you finding success in replacing them with?

i tried multyple times to find a good nasty plot user for my sticky web teams.
there is not a single pokemon out there that can replace chi-yu.
the closest I could find was fire-tera zoroark and this pokemon isn't that good.

Sticky web is dead now.

 

[Ehmcee]

i tried multyple times to find a good nasty plot user for my sticky web teams.
there is not a single pokemon out there that can replace chi-yu.
the closest I could find was fire-tera zoroark and this pokemon isn't that good.

Sticky web is dead now.

"Sticky web is dea..."

Gholdengo is the best nasty plot user in the tier, and also heavily boosts webs's viability, if you weren't running one before with Chi-Yu, you definitely should've been.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Iron Moth Poison, Fire, Fairy, Grass, Flying

I've always been curious of this, why poison? Is tera sludge wave really stronger than tera fire or tera defense/coverage?

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

"Sticky web is dea..."
View attachment 483928

Gholdengo is the best nasty plot user in the tier, and also heavily boosts webs's viability, if you weren't running one before with Chi-Yu, you definitely should've been.

Yeah, I want to echo this. I feel like Webs are probably in the best place they’ve been since ORAS, at least when you only consider the OU tiers. Gholdengo is likely the biggest reason as to why, but other factors like Boots not being as prevalent as they were in SS (I actually don’t have any data to back up if this is the case but it definitely has felt that way to me, and I do think that more of the offensive threats in SV that are most affected by Webs really prefer running items other than Boots), the relative scarcity of Flying types/Levitate users, and the lower distribution of Defog. Webs still have the same problems of not impacting every Pokémon (again, thanks to Boots and Flying types/Levitate), none of the setters being particularly threatening on their own, and Gholdengo not being able to always guarantee that Webs don’t get removed, especially against something like Treads, but overall I feel like Webs are in about as good of a spot as you could expect. Masquerain is currently at C+ on the current viability rankings, and while that isn’t anything too crazy, it’s still higher than any Webs setter was in SS or SM OU (and I guess also ORAS OU but I think that Webs have been the most impactful in ORAS, and viability rankings for older gens don’t always mean much anyway).

 

[viivian]

Some will likely be back.

was about to say flutter mane could actually have answers thanks to magearna and heatran but neither of them have recovery so maybe not. so all we know for sure is that houndstone is likely going to be unbanned by then but that's really it

 

[1LDK]

Im my honest opinion, the robot maid is gonna get banned but via suspect, it still has access to like a million sets, all with different variables AND tera to shake that even more, but this time around i think is gonna last a bit more than Gen 8 Mag for the overall increse on power creep, for all the other teras, returning mons and the mons we already have, tera also helping alot in that regard, Mag is a mon im gonna enjoy a lot when it comes out

 

[MilkyWay]

tyranitar's gonna end up back in ou somehow, i just know it. i've been playing this game for 20 years and one thing i learned is that my boy ttar always comes out on top eventually

People think Big Stall drives Smogon’s bans but in reality we just ban things until Tyranitar is OU

So this isn’t a one liner I’ve been testing Golduck on rain recently to moderate success. Here’s the set I’ve been using:

Golduck

Golduck @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Fairy Psychic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot

Calcs

252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo in Rain: 274-324 (86.9 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 426-502 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 317-374 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Psychic vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 489-577 (113.1 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire (water absorb): 325-385 (70.1 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Tera Water Ting-Lu: 374-442 (72.7 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 364-429 (98.3 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Golduck: 116-136 (38.5 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fairy Golduck: 94-112 (31.2 - 37.2%) -- 83.9% chance to 3HKO

I’ve been using it alongside CB Floatzel to help break common water resists. Psychic and Grass Knot hit many of them super effectively (Amoongus, Pex, water absorb closure, Donzozo, tera water Ting, Quaquavel, Azumarill, Breloom) and LO Surf hits pretty hard even non boosted.

I’ve tried expert belt and mystic water but find the extra power from life orb to be important for Golduck to get kills early/mid game. Haven’t tried specs cuz it seems too prediction reliant.

Tera type is to surprise would be revenge killers (sucker punch chien pao and Kingambit) and surprise set up on weak super effective moves (Rotom-W Volt Switch, Amoongus Giga Drain). I’ve previously tried Tera water and grass and find fairy significantly more useful (I Tera Golduck ~1/3 of games).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1772436823-twr8sibikdglv10lbn9j9xle6ydereapw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1773647797

EDIT: If anyone has any advice for the team in the replay let me know because I’ve been struggling to get past the 1600s

PokePaste

https://pokepast.es/8b62589780cafc7b

EDIT AGAIN: changed Tera to Psychic to get the OHKO with +2 Psychic on Rotom-W

 

[Cuddly]

What is the likelihood some currently banned Mons will be suspect tested once home releases and there are more Pokémon which may make them manageable?

Most likely candidate will be Annihilape, but that’s still pretty unlikely and also because Smogon will have their hands tied with Hoopa-Unbound with a vengence, Sneasler, and Houndstone: the Prequel.
Speaking of which, can’t wait for Basculegion to make the meta unplayable for 3 days because we need to see if it’d be alright for some ungodly reason.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Sticky web is dead now.

let's be honest with ourselves, sticky web was never alive this gen. it has exactly three fully evolved setters, all of which come with a laugh track when you select them in the teambuilder

 

[Goodstyle]

Strongly reccommend CB Meowscarada in this current meta.

Flowertrick deals a devastating blow to Great Tusk, bypasses any bulkups, and outspeeds most Tusks even after a rapid spin. It crushes water and rock Gargs even after several iron defenses. In fact, it's a great answer to the all-too-common water teras in the tier.

Run thunder punch along side it to dent Corviknights that are 100% gonna switch in.

It also acts as a terrific revenge killer, scaring off Gholdengo's and even has a shot at one shotting Cinderace with a Knock Off. This thing knocks off the opponent's team like nobody's business, since everyone is too afraid to switch their Tusk in out of fear of a Flower Trick. Finally, the dark/grass typing is so great for taking at least one hit to secure kills, namely ghost/dark/ground attacks.

Don't sleep on this thing!

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Strongly reccommend CB Meowscarada in this current meta.

Flowertrick deals a devastating blow to Great Tusk, bypasses any bulkups, and outspeeds most Tusks even after a rapid spin. It crushes water and rock Gargs even after several iron defenses. In fact, it's a great answer to the all-too-common water teras in the tier.

Run thunder punch along side it to dent Corviknights that are 100% gonna switch in.

It also acts as a terrific revenge killer, scaring off Gholdengo's and even has a shot at one shotting Cinderace with a Knock Off. This thing knocks off the opponent's team like nobody's business, since everyone is too afraid to switch their Tusk in out of fear of a Flower Trick. Finally, the dark/grass typing is so great for taking at least one hit to secure kills, namely ghost/dark/ground attacks.

Don't sleep on this thing!

yeah, meowscarada's one of the only things i find consistently giving me trouble. not to the point where it needs tiering action, nowhere near it, but it's one of the only things i need to put in really serious effort to play around. also on that list are chien-pao (which needs to go), roaring moon (which might need to go), gholdengo (which probably doesn't need to go), and ting-lu (which definitely doesn't need to go)

 

[YNM]

also on that list are chien-pao (which needs to go), roaring moon (which might need to go), gholdengo (which probably doesn't need to go), and ting-lu (which definitely doesn't need to go)

Could I ask you why do you think that Moon is that much of a problem? I do think it's good, but besides some exceptions I've been able to manage it quite well in most of my teams, thanks to either Corvi, Rotom-W or Great Tusk. Revenge killers like Banded Pao with Ice Shard or Scarf/Booster Energy Valiant are also solid answers.

 

[YNM]

I can't quite see anything fulfilling the same anti-stall/scary sweeper role Annihilape had going without some extra support.

It may not be a scary sweeper, but defensive Gholdengo with Covert Cloak has been putting some good work on my latest team. The ability to check pretty much any stall or mainly defensive mon thanks to its solid stats and its incredible ability is very nice, especially against things like Pex, Garg, Amoongus, Corvi, Rotom-W, Hatterene, Grim and Scream Tail. You can always switch into these mons, and thanks to Nasty Plot + Recover you can set up extremely easily and deal massive damage. If you don't like running Cloak you can trade the capability to wall Garg to give it a Balloon, allowing it to also switch into stuff like Clodsire, Great Tusk and Orthworm and check them.