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the ability pressure only affects moves that target the user of pressure(damage dealing moves and status causing moves), it has no effect on the moves that target anything but the user (healing moves, set up moves, weather moves, terrain moves etc).
okay I will just get a OHKO before it puts me to sleep, oh wait, that's impossible unless if I waste my tera or have a set up pokemon already on the field before amoonguss gets in or use a gimmicky tactic like lum berry/safety goggles.
I guess only gholdengo and hatterene can reliably beat it without falling asleep.
okay I will just get a OHKO before it puts me to sleep, oh wait, that's impossible unless if I waste my tera or have a set up pokemon already on the field before amoonguss gets in or use a gimmicky tactic like lum berry/safety goggles.
I guess only gholdengo and hatterene can reliably beat it without falling asleep.
As others have said, determine the least useful mon on your team and switch it into Spore so that Sleep Clause stops it from Sporing your breaker. Or just use the second best mon in the tier.
Amoong isnt busted and nobody except one user out of the thousands of players on the sim thinks that, the same person that said Corv needs a ban cause you cant kill it in one hit???? Why y'all entertaining it?
one of the best qualities of garg was its ability to soft counter / check chien-pao. with it being banned this has caused new tera-types to be legit justifiable / consistent. here's 2 i have been playing with in this post-pao meta:
1. View attachment 491880tera-ground eq allows garg to bypass common cloak counter-play without the need to curse. it breaks even tera-fairy skeledirge's sub (which curse can't do). because curse isn't required anymore you have a free slot last to run whatever. i prefer block since it allows you to remove stuff like tusk, clod, pex, etc. 'mons that normally come in to scout / waste garg's pp. removing tusk especially is broken and can outright win games
2. View attachment 491882 with pao banned, valiant is this tier's most versatile and preferred breaker with its specs & AoA sets. poison hard counters valiant with the addition of cockblocking breloom and amoonguss
garg continues to have an unhealthy effect on the teambuilder and can afford to adapt/experiment more with each meta shift
a lot of counter-play is tech'ing the aforementioned substitute on random shit like rotom-w, hatterene, and hydreigon which are pokemon already strapped for moveslots as is.
the only "adaptation" i can get down with is substitute skeledirge since that set does work even when you don't play a garg
the most common & best cloak user, gholdengo, is forced to burn its tera to beat curse-less eq variants (which can open you up to something like iron valiant later). other cloak users such as corviknight, great tusk, toxapex, and amoonguss tend to be unreliable because these 'mons also end up being your knock absorber for threats like opposing , etc... which you will see in the replays below.
i have been using other knock off users such as to varying levels of success as they are less exploitable / direct beneficiaries from the pao ban. in gallade's case, it's a strong breaker with knock whose niche continues to become more valuable each meta shift with the tier's overall power levels decreasing
ladder replay 1 - cloak corv is a horrendous cloak user when 90% of teams are already using it to deal with tusk and meow
"well go something else on said knock user!"
do you not see how restrictive this is in the builder?
doubling down on answers to mons that way i can avoid knock on my cloak mon in order to beat garg aint it. especially on more defensive archetypes which got nerfed to the ground and are borderline unviable this gen to begin with
ladder replay 2 - opponent tera's his pex in order to "pp stall" my garg but the reality of the situation is that doesn't help. one thing that people don't realize is the nerf to recovery moves is actually pro-garg because people can't pp stall salt cure as easily. imagine if corv had 16 roosts. it'd be able to sit on garg for a while and roost off most of garg's salt cures with pressure
ladder replay 3 - this is your so-called "meta adaptation" in which people are running substitute on their fucking hatterenes. and this is not a "small cost" as my garganacl has 36 speed ev's and my opponent was still faster than that meaning it's not just a moveslot but also a fuckton of ev's being invested to make this set work (and funny thing is he still needed hax to kill my garg!)
ladder replay 4 - cloak pex is not an answer to block variants and i didn't even need to knock it off nor tera to 1v1 it. my opponent's only out here was by tera'ing his toxapex and the garg user wins in the situation because they would have burned their tera on a fuckin' pex while i didn't have to use mine. i was able to heal up later on corv and then salt cure the rest of his team
ladder replay 5 - god i've been wanting to get this guy ctann for a fat minute on ladder. some very questionable takes such as the "garg is like heatran" which i found to be a complete stretch. his so called anti-garg offense with dual substitute in this replay still lost because of how mindless and easy this 'mon is to support for example is what i've been testing rn due to its beautiful synergy with poison-garg not just defensively but offensively too with its ability to spread knock. very underrated and i can see it rising up the ranks fast in this post-pao meta
ladder replay 6 - sub dirge, cloak pex, possibly a sub pult as well. these are the lengths players are going too and yall call this healthy? it didn't actually stop garg considering how splashable its team support is which is the funniest part. s/o sz for this team https://pokepast.es/61009791b0a2de71 broken af
also i'd like to say block is not a fringe option. in fact i don't think any of garg's lesser used moves are "fringe options" because the reality is this 'mon only needs salt cure + recover to be bullshit
INB4 IT'S LADDER ALL OF MY OPPONENTS PLAYED LIKE SHIT AND WERE ASS DESPITE THE GAMES BEING 1850+ RATED
spl replay 1 - garg players have been getting creative to bypass the cringe building trends that have arised to beat this thing. curse + block + covert cloak is an example of this
spl replay 2 - don't let the result distract you from how much work this thing did before eventually going down
View attachment 491876 View attachment 491776
i'd also like to address garg's spl win-rate. as you can see garg has had some abysmal win-rates but even some of the losses show how ridiculous this thing can be (ex. the leo match above). the main reason for a lot of losses is not solely due to the extremes people are going to beat this thing
HO being the best playstyle rn is overshadowing garg's unhealthy tier presence
even in this replay above the garg still did a sizable amount of work since salt cure is a totally fair, honest, and balanced move am i right guys?
ost replay 1 - recent r2 ost game which is monai (a great player) vs my brotha SSGOAT clean. garg went absolutely stupid and i think this replay is a high level example of when my boy MS highlighted that "garg can't be checked" and "you have to attempt to hard counter it." as you can see getting a knock off vs it with tusk helps. key word "helps." people act like knocking it off invalidates it or some shit when it's hardly the case. you're simply just limiting its longevity max
ost replay 2 - this was very well-played. this luis guy played the garg extremely aggro and used it as his "hyper stall wall" or whatever u want to call it forcing residuals on the 2 mons that potentially stop bu tusk late-game. paid off fantastically. a mon this defensive / fat should not be allowed to force this much progress. fuck garg fr fr
ost replay 3 - game 3 of m dragon's round 2. curse garg wins despite his opponent having a cloak dengo. great "counterplay" my guy
ost replay 6 - NOT AGAIN curse garg, sets up, gg. pex can't pp stall it even post tera. cloak dengo is obviously useless.
garGG
gonna postface this post by saying garg is far from unbeatable & even if this 'mon isn't as broken as espathra or chien-pao, it still doesn't change the fact it's unhealthy imo. fuck garg it needs to go asap
same with orthworm/ shed tail. it's uncompetitive nonsense that enables HO way too much, but i'll go more in-depth on this later. thx
oooookaaaay maybe magnezone is a bit less bad than I thought, but it still isn't that good.
if the enemy team isn't running corviknight or gambit then magnezone serves almost no purpose.
running analytic is just a dumb gimmick,you will need to lower its dissapointing speed even more than it already it.
analytic will only let it stay on the field for about 2-3 turns and then die.
maaaaaybe if it had reliable recovery and/or higher HP then analytic would be viable.
you are better off running glimmora or even goodra 4 special attacks + life orb+ max speed.
You don’t need to minimize speed, you go max speed for Washtom. (Timid for 52 speed Tusks). Analytic deals more damage when they switch, and since Zone forces alot of switch-ins, this is a genuine strat.
it is not an apples with oranges because I am not comparing the pokemon to each other, I am comparing the argument about the suppossed importance of hazards.
pao is much weaker to hazards compared to amoonguss (stealth rock alone they make the choice band sets hard to use since it can't keep switching in all the time,also toxic spikes can help too if you have the patience to use protect moves.).
so spikes are a bad argument on pao then they are worse argument on amoonguss.
Again, it is comparing apples to oranges because you are taking the pro-Pao arguments about hazards and applying it to Amoonguss. The reason the comparison doesn’t work is because Pao is not something you want coming in for free. Even with hazards up you still risk losing a mon. The worst Amoonguss does is check your offensive threats and puts something to sleep. Not an immediate threat like Pao was. This isn’t like BW OU where sleep = death, even in slumber, something like Pex or Ting-Lu can still do their job as checks/pivots while being asleep.
I already explained in an other comment that a damage of 90% may be great on any other wall but it isn't as impressive on amoonguss because the combination of spore+regenerator+synthesis can let it gain 83% health in just 2 turns(it uses synthesis after it puts your pokemon to sleep and then it can just switch and heal instantly a 33% health from regenerator) and all of these without holding a healing item.
even if smogon made a complex ban that prevents amoongus from holding a healing item amoonguss wouldn't become particularly easier to fight because the combo of spore+synthesis+regenerator is too damn strong.
Amoonguss almost never runs Synthesis. If you consider Amoonguss is taking heavy damage from say Psyshock, then it is forced to switch which you can exploit with your other mons to keep up the pressure/momentum. Even with Regen, its gonna come back in with less than 50% HP, meaning its less effective at checking stuff like Tusks, Quaval, etc. Also consider that spikes and hazards can reduce the 33% healing from Regen. Also Knock is relevent here because it removes its item. (Shocker) Now it doesn’t have the immunity to hazards or passive recovery in Black Sludge. Considering it is often a team’s Knock Off sponge, its gonna lose an item to something like Meow.
Not in a Pao-less metagame. Exploits most of the passive mons while being able to pivot into Valiant, Ghold, and Specs Pult, especially with Tera Water. Also future sight is really good considering the mons that can abuse it.
If Quaval comes in on one of Amoonguss’ teammates like say Ting-Lu, forces Amoonguss in and Quaval gets an SD,
+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 356-420 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This happens.
Listen, its fine to ask for ways of dealing with an offensive/defensive threat, but to advocate for a ban because you don’t know how to break through it is for a lack of a better word, obsurd. Especially considering the fire types in question are common and great rn. (Skeledirge, Cinder, Volc) Also the fact its biggest counter is one of the most used mons in the tier for reasons besides Amoonguss.
Given the Amoonguss replies are making less progress than Cinderace against Dondozo, I'd like to ask about Kingambit.
I get very infrequent chances to play on the ladder, but like to keep up with trends so that I can try to be informed if I jump back on. Kingambit is a Pokemon I hear consistently talked up as a factor in other Pokemons' performances, and I most certainly believe it given the stats and Bisharp's performance in prior gens (even outside Defog exploitation), but what in particular makes Kingambit an A/A+ Pokemon as it's ranked and considered?
I see surprisingly little talk about the Mon in and of itself to get a grasp on how it's employed (SD Wallbreaker, Lategame Wincon, HO control with Bulk and strong Sucker Punch?), so curious how people are employing it. The most I'm aware of is Fairy being a preferred Tera Type (unsurprisingly given its normal weaknesses are common with Tusk in the tier and Gholdengo runs screaming from Dark STAB)
You don’t need to minimize speed, you go max speed for Washtom. (Timid for 52 speed Tusks). Analytic deals more damage when they switch, and since Zone forces alot of switch-ins, this is a genuine strat.
Again, it is comparing apples to oranges because you are taking the pro-Pao arguments about hazards and applying it to Amoonguss. The reason the comparison doesn’t work is because Pao is not something you want coming in for free. Even with hazards up you still risk losing a mon. The worst Amoonguss does is check your offensive threats and puts something to sleep. Not an immediate threat like Pao was. This isn’t like BW OU where sleep = death, even in slumber, something like Pex or Ting-Lu can still do their job as checks/pivots while being asleep.
but I don't think that hazards will help that much.
regenerator can nulify both spikes and stealth rock, it absorbs toxic spikes and even it is so slow that it does not care about sticky web (yes I know that sticky web is not good this generation,I just don't want to leave the little guy out of the discussion).
this may change in the future if people start experimenting with it.
it run it both in gen 5 and gen 8, who is saying that it will not start running it again?
If you consider Amoonguss is taking heavy damage from say Psyshock, then it is forced to switch which you can exploit with your other mons to keep up the pressure/momentum. Even with Regen, its gonna come back in with less than 50% HP, meaning its less effective at checking stuff like Tusks, Quaval, etc.
if an attack deals 90% damage and amoonguss clicks spore on that same turn, then it gets one free turn to use synthesis and increase its health to 60%.
from that point depending on if the opponent has or hasn't switch it can chose to either switch or heal again.
if it choses to switch when it comes back it is going to get a free 33% thus making its health 93%, and thats assuming that it is not holding a healing item.
it is matter of time until players realize that synthesis is a pretty good move.
okay, I guess this set is not all that bad, it is easy to forget that substitute protects from status moves since I almost never use it.
I really can't remember the last time I used a pokemon with substitute.
Not in a Pao-less metagame. Exploits most of the passive mons while being able to pivot into Valiant, Ghold, and Specs Pult, especially with Tera Water. Also future sight is really good considering the mons that can abuse it.
you think that slowking is going to see more usage now that pao is gone?
oh men, I hope that this turns out to be wrong but I would not be surprised if it turns out to be right.
Listen, its fine to ask for ways of dealing with an offensive/defensive threat, but to advocate for a ban because you don’t know how to break through it is for a lack of a better word, obsurd.
I didn't advocate for a ban because "I didn't know how to deal with it", I advocated for a ban because I considered the pokemon to be centralizing on top of the fact that it has the pottential to be busted.
Given the Amoonguss replies are making less progress than Cinderace against Dondozo, I'd like to ask about Kingambit.
I get very infrequent chances to play on the ladder, but like to keep up with trends so that I can try to be informed if I jump back on. Kingambit is a Pokemon I hear consistently talked up as a factor in other Pokemons' performances, and I most certainly believe it given the stats and Bisharp's performance in prior gens (even outside Defog exploitation), but what in particular makes Kingambit an A/A+ Pokemon as it's ranked and considered?
I see surprisingly little talk about the Mon in and of itself to get a grasp on how it's employed (SD Wallbreaker, Lategame Wincon, HO control with Bulk and strong Sucker Punch?), so curious how people are employing it. The most I'm aware of is Fairy being a preferred Tera Type (unsurprisingly given its normal weaknesses are common with Tusk in the tier and Gholdengo runs screaming from Dark STAB)
(I'm in a phone, so sorry for bad grammar)
The thing about Kingambit is that even with either SO or Defiant, 1 SD is all it takes for it to start shouting THE ONE PIECE IS REAL and basically ends the anime, is a defense shredder because no Pokémon really wants to take with it, and thanks to sucker punch, offensive mons have to play mind games, tera also helps a lot, ghost, dark, flying, fire are all insanely good for either defensive or offensive utility, is not broken, and It's very easy to shit on in early game, but late game gambit is a fucking menace man
Personally, while not the most efficient set, I like Tera Dark + Black Glasses, it straight up deletes games with it, it's so fun
EDIT: Anyways im back on a PC, so it's better grammar time and a better explanation
Kingambit despite being one of the best setup sweepers in the tier, it also has some niche sets like Choice Band for immediate power and AV for tanking, and the sd set has a lot of items it can use, leftovers, black glasses, metal coat, focus sash, boots, lum berry, its a Pokémon that despite having almost always the same set, it has just enough variety to it that's making it 2-dimensional instead of one, this also affects its counter, not by alot like some wild cases, but maybe it has the right one to shit on the one you brough, like tera fire for skele, tera fairy or ghost for fighters, etc. but to be honest with you, at the end of the day, It's not hard to just click sd and start writing on the showdown chat
THE ONE PIECE
THE ONE PIECE IS REAL
CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER (So high)
SO HIGH
OH OHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER (So High)
SO HIGH
OH OHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
and get a lucky 50% OHKO chance against Fairy max def gargnacl that though you were with no hope left
if an attack deals 90% damage and amoonguss clicks spore on that same turn, then it gets one free turn to use synthesis and increase its health to 60%.
from that point depending on if the opponent has or hasn't switch it can chose to either switch or heal again.
As others have said, determine the least useful mon on your team and switch it into Spore so that Sleep Clause stops it from Sporing your breaker. Or just use the second best mon in the tier.
ookaaay....what EV spread and moveset do you suggest then?
are there any teamates that analytic magnezone needs in order to function?
fiiine I guess my comparison wasn't that good.
but I don't think that hazards will help that much.
regenerator can nulify both spikes and stealth rock, it absorbs toxic spikes and even it is so slow that it does not care about sticky web (yes I know that sticky web is not good this generation,I just don't want to leave the little guy out of the discussion).
this may change in the future if people start experimenting with it.
it run it both in gen 5 and gen 8, who is saying that it will not start running it again?
if an attack deals 90% damage and amoonguss clicks spore on that same turn, then it gets one free turn to use synthesis and increase its health to 60%.
from that point depending on if the opponent has or hasn't switch it can chose to either switch or heal again.
if it choses to switch when it comes back it is going to get a free 33% thus making its health 93%, and thats assuming that it is not holding a healing item.
it is matter of time until players realize that synthesis is a pretty good move.
okay, I guess this set is not all that bad, it is easy to forget that substitute protects from status moves since I almost never use it.
I really can't remember the last time I used a pokemon with substitute.
you think that slowking is going to see more usage now that pao is gone?
oh men, I hope that this turns out to be wrong but I would not be surprised if it turns out to be right.
this is not a OHKO. you can be put into sleep.
I didn't advocate for a ban because "I didn't know how to deal with it", I advocated for a ban because I considered the pokemon to be centralizing on top of the fact that it has the pottential to be busted.
If for some reason you dont have one of the many pokemon that can switch into Amoongus, then usually you just let the last valuable member get Spored. After that Amoongus becomes pretty trivial, and at worst just annoying. Yes that does require putting down 1 pokemon on your team, but there are still ways to beat it and it is clearly not broken.
Also in practice it is definitely not as good as it seems on paper like you are making it out to be.
If for some reason you dont have one of the many pokemon that can switch into Amoongus, then usually you just let the last valuable member get Spored. After that Amoongus becomes pretty trivial, and at worst just annoying. Yes that does require putting down 1 pokemon on your team, but there are still ways to beat it and it is clearly not broken.
Also in practice it is definitely not as good as it seems on paper like you are making it out to be.
I mean he could also run something with safe guard, misty/electric terrain or so if he's THAT worried about being spored but yeah I agree Amoogus nor spore are that worrisome, at least not to warrant 2 pages or discussion lol.
Let's talk about addition by subtraction in competitive Pokemon and why we may focus more on offensive Pokemon in suspects than defensive Pokemon. nathanlikeschicken actually made a great video on the topic here earlier in the generation for those who want something more media based.
The last few Pokemon we have quick-banned are Iron Bundle, Chi-Yu, and Espathra. We have only had one suspect on a Pokemon, but similar logic tracks here as well oftentimes. All of these are offensively oriented Pokemon, not defensively oriented Pokemon. However, the metagame has either gotten more offensive or remained where it previously was. Why is this?
Oftentimes offensive Pokemon that are too much for OU are this way because they have too few checks and counters. Generally this means you have to go to an extreme to respond to them. For example, Iron Bundle forced things like Blissey to reliably check it and Espathra forced things like Tera Dark Clodsire. These Pokemon are used largely on bulkier teams, forcing these archetypes as reactionary measures to overly restricting offensive Pokemon.
Removing these Pokemon may take an offensive Pokemon away, but can add to its viability as a hole without their limitation and threat.
As an extension of this, it is harder for a reactionary Pokemon itself -- say Toxapex -- to be broken necessarily. It is by nature more passive and a group of Pokemon are bound to abuse it. Garganacl may be the exception to this rule as its signature move makes it less passive and its ability makes it less exploitable through conventional means. However, the jury is still out on this topic.
I mean he could also run something with safe guard, misty/electric terrain or so if he's THAT worried about being spored but yeah I agree Amoogus nor spore are that worrisome, at least not to warrant 2 pages or discussion lol.
At this point, he must be an extremely low ladder rookie or a troll. I've seen him go on about things like this in the past and there is no reasoning with him. He refuses to properly adapt, let alone listen to what others are saying, and instead wants to push his "me me me, I'm always right" narrative. (Which is pretty much always wrong.)
I don't even have a dedicated grass/safeguard/terrain setter/Gholdengo on my main team, and I STILL don't have a problem with Amoonguss and Spore. Both because I know what I can freely sack to sleep, and Substitute dookies on it harder than anything else barring Taunt.
Let's talk about addition by subtraction in competitive Pokemon and why we may focus more on offensive Pokemon in suspects than defensive Pokemon. nathanlikeschicken actually made a great video on the topic here earlier in the generation for those who want something more media based.
The last few Pokemon we have quick-banned are Iron Bundle, Chi-Yu, and Espathra. We have only had one suspect on a Pokemon, but similar logic tracks here as well oftentimes. All of these are offensively oriented Pokemon, not defensively oriented Pokemon. However, the metagame has either gotten more offensive or remained where it previously was. Why is this?
Oftentimes offensive Pokemon that are too much for OU are this way because they have too few checks and counters. Generally this means you have to go to an extreme to respond to them. For example, Iron Bundle forced things like Blissey to reliably check it and Espathra forced things like Tera Dark Clodsire. These Pokemon are used largely on bulkier teams, forcing these archetypes as reactionary measures to overly restricting offensive Pokemon.
Removing these Pokemon may take an offensive Pokemon away, but can add to its viability as a hole without their limitation and threat.
As an extension of this, it is harder for a reactionary Pokemon itself -- say Toxapex -- to be broken necessarily. It is by nature more passive and a group of Pokemon are bound to abuse it. Garganacl may be the exception to this rule as its signature move makes it less passive and its ability makes it less exploitable through conventional means. However, the jury is still out on this topic.
I love looking at passive Pokemon that people think are exploitable (or greedy setup mons at that), and suddenly flipping the script on them. Unconventional things are truly a thing of wonder.
Oftentimes offensive Pokemon that are too much for OU are this way because they have too few checks and counters. Generally this means you have to go to an extreme to respond to them. For example, Iron Bundle forced things like Blissey to reliably check it and Espathra forced things like Tera Dark Clodsire. These Pokemon are used largely on bulkier teams, forcing these archetypes as reactionary measures to overly restricting offensive Pokemon.
this, and also when has a defensive pokemon ever been banned from OU before? the only instance of that i can think of would be mega sableye in ORAS and if i recall, the majority of that fell on its access to magic bounce. it's generally pretty hard to make a bulkier pokemon too overwhelming for OU, whereas it is not at all hard to make an offensive pokemon too strong
This is true, but I will say that mons like Lugia and Solgaleo would clearly be way too much for OU if they were ever in the tier. Though honestly, I guess the fact that you have to resort to using cover legendaries as examples for defensive brokemons goes to show how much higher the bar is for them (sorry, Zamazenta).
Garganacl may be the exception to this rule as its signature move makes it less passive and its ability makes it less exploitable through conventional means. However, the jury is still out on this topic.
A week ago, I was walking home from school. It was dark out already at this time of year. In an alley, someone called out. I thought it was a cry for help, but as I approached, I could make out a tall silhouette who clearly didn't need any help. "Kid," he said. I froze. "I couldn't help but notice that Houndstone beanie you're wearing." "W-w-what about it?" I asked. "Hand it over" said the figure. It was not a request I could deny. As my eyes adjusted to the darkness, I recognized his face. It was Jack Smogon, on yet another crazed banning spree. He took my Houndstone beanie. A smirk formed on his face as he put a Toxapex cap on my head in return. "Now, don't let me catch you slipping up again. Also, I'm keeping an eye on those" he said, motioning towards my Palafin sneakers. He then U-turned away. When I checked my phone afterwards, I saw that 48 hours had passed in this interaction. Fucking Smogon stalled me once again!!!
Shitposting aside, in my personal opinion, Garga forces a rare trade game where steel and water becomes much worse overall, covert cloak is good, yes, but honestly, sometimes you wanna run some other stuff in your gholdengo or pex. I want to take out for lunch the "lure that threat" garganacl episode because i wanna try to make a new angle for the same point
These are all the lures that got into the voting state, you see anything rare in them?
Every set either puts an insane instant amount of offense in it with no time to react, or tries to slowly out maneuver it in the least passive method possible, the thing is, the amount of mon that can greatly out offense garga is small, so most of them are forced into play chicken, the perfect example of this is the winner, sub skele, who is a common set nowadays for its capability to set up with no consequence and start piling on damage
And I'm not saying stuff like covert cloak, tera ghost curse or sub are bad, but if all of this is for one specific mon, that's kind of oppressive, and sure, its not nearly as oppressive as chi yu, bundle or pao, no way Jose, but It's just enough for everyone to notice it a tiny bit
This is true, but I will say that mons like Lugia and Solgaleo would clearly be way too much for OU if they were ever in the tier. Though honestly, I guess the fact that you have to resort to using cover legendaries as examples for defensive brokemons goes to show how much higher the bar is for them (sorry, Zamazenta).
garganacl is another outlier, much like mega sableye, in where both manage to be overwhelming by their defensive presence rather than their offensive presence. both pokemon can shut down common forms of counterplay to defensive teams, such as status, but the difference is that while mega sableye managed to be an immovable hazard blocker and made it impossible to chip down stall teams without outright attacking, garganacl is a pokemon that forces a ton of switches by virtue of the passive damage it spreads and can snowball out of control with setup very easily once its checks are removed
ookaaay....what EV spread and moveset do you suggest then?
are there any teamates that analytic magnezone needs in order to function?
fiiine I guess my comparison wasn't that good.
but I don't think that hazards will help that much.
regenerator can nulify both spikes and stealth rock, it absorbs toxic spikes and even it is so slow that it does not care about sticky web (yes I know that sticky web is not good this generation,I just don't want to leave the little guy out of the discussion).
this may change in the future if people start experimenting with it.
it run it both in gen 5 and gen 8, who is saying that it will not start running it again?
if an attack deals 90% damage and amoonguss clicks spore on that same turn, then it gets one free turn to use synthesis and increase its health to 60%.
from that point depending on if the opponent has or hasn't switch it can chose to either switch or heal again.
if it choses to switch when it comes back it is going to get a free 33% thus making its health 93%, and thats assuming that it is not holding a healing item.
it is matter of time until players realize that synthesis is a pretty good move.
okay, I guess this set is not all that bad, it is easy to forget that substitute protects from status moves since I almost never use it.
I really can't remember the last time I used a pokemon with substitute.
you think that slowking is going to see more usage now that pao is gone?
oh men, I hope that this turns out to be wrong but I would not be surprised if it turns out to be right.
this is not a OHKO. you can be put into sleep.
I didn't advocate for a ban because "I didn't know how to deal with it", I advocated for a ban because I considered the pokemon to be centralizing on top of the fact that it has the pottential to be busted.
Regen does not shrug off rocks or spikes. It heals by 33% and that number is reduced by rocks. Amoonguss ran mostly Hidden Power Fire in older gens to hit Ferro. Synthesis is mentioned in the strategy dex for Gen 5, however 9 times out of ten the former is chosen. Synthesis is usually just redundant on Amoonguss cause of Regen. If you switch into Amoonguss on Valiant and it clicks Psyshock, you are not gonna be clicking Spore for obvious reasons. You’re either forced out or sack the Amoonguss. From what I am gathering, this is about breaking Amoonguss and we have given you countless examples of mons that break it.
You are asking for a ban to Amoonguss and you forgot substitute blocks status, the more I argue with you, the harder it is to take you seriously.
“You think Slowking is gonna see more usage with Pao gone?”
Yes, if the ban of X that threatens Y occurs, it isn’t farfetch’d to assume Y will see more usage.
From having a convo with you, it is clear you don’t have a good grasp in the meta. Something is centralizing or suspect worthy when it warps the meta in an unhealthy way. Chi-Yu forced Garg/Pex/Ting cores. Espa forced Dirge, or random Tera Dark mons. Amoonguss doesn’t do this, It has several top threats that force it out or break it, most of which even you admitted were solid answers. Amoonguss has remained unchanged outside of losing Hidden Power in Gen 8. It has gained nothing to be even close to banworthy and there is no world where Amoonguss is broken when it gets completely walled by the SECOND MOST USED POKEMON IN THE TIER!
Also, I saw that you also want Pex banned despite the nerfs and from what AM has said, you are also the same person who advocated for a Corv ban.
You have a clear history of struggling and whining about defensive staples and asking for bans because you don’t have the patience to play what is essentially monster-collecting chess. Team structures, synergy, offensive cores, etc. If you have to rely on absurdly broken wallbreakers to break these mons you call overcentralizing, the defensive mons are not the problem, its just that you have a skill issue. Learn how to be patient, ask for advice on teambuilding, watch high ladder/tournament replays with Amoonguss, and most importantly, git good.
Obviously a pokemon with the ability to cleanly 1HKO or 2HKO majority of walls without a setup turn is problematic, but the counsil doesn't see a team consisting of multiple regen mons and recovery options as problematic. GF had to nerf healing PP and smogon never -really- banned anything that abused the 16 pp of recovery options before. So its just a matter of is this an argument of game balance or is it one about the mindset of what we want the meta to look like.
Regen does not shrug off rocks or spikes. It heals by 33% and that number is reduced by rocks. Amoonguss ran mostly Hidden Power Fire in older gens to hit Ferro. Synthesis is mentioned in the strategy dex for Gen 5, however 9 times out of ten the former is chosen. Synthesis is usually just redundant on Amoonguss cause of Regen. If you switch into Amoonguss on Valiant and it clicks Psyshock, you are not gonna be clicking Spore for obvious reasons. You’re either forced out or sack the Amoonguss. From what I am gathering, this is about breaking Amoonguss and we have given you countless examples of mons that break it.
You are asking for a ban to Amoonguss and you forgot substitute blocks status, the more I argue with you, the harder it is to take you seriously.
“You think Slowking is gonna see more usage with Pao gone?”
Yes, if the ban of X that threatens Y occurs, it isn’t farfetch’d to assume Y will see more usage.
From having a convo with you, it is clear you don’t have a good grasp in the meta. Something is centralizing or suspect worthy when it warps the meta in an unhealthy way. Chi-Yu forced Garg/Pex/Ting cores. Espa forced Dirge, or random Tera Dark mons. Amoonguss doesn’t do this, It has several top threats that force it out or break it, most of which even you admitted were solid answers. Amoonguss has remained unchanged outside of losing Hidden Power in Gen 8. It has gained nothing to be even close to banworthy and there is no world where Amoonguss is broken when it gets completely walled by the SECOND MOST USED POKEMON IN THE TIER!
Also, I saw that you also want Pex banned despite the nerfs and from what AM has said, you are also the same person who advocated for a Corv ban.
You have a clear history of struggling and whining about defensive staples and asking for bans because you don’t have the patience to play what is essentially monster-collecting chess. Team structures, synergy, offensive cores, etc. If you have to rely on absurdly broken wallbreakers to break these mons you call overcentralizing, the defensive mons are not the problem, its just that you have a skill issue. Learn how to be patient, ask for advice on teambuilding, watch high ladder/tournament replays with Amoonguss, and most importantly, git good.
appreciate you taking the time to engage in an argument with this guy but don't you think it's a lost cause at this point? honestly don't see how or why arguing with someone who unironically thinks corviknight should be banned is a worthwhile use of time. again, i have nothing but respect you for being willing to take this guy on in a debate but i think we should move onto discussing something else, we've all given our piece on this matter using our knowledge of the metagame and they still haven't gotten the message so this just seems like a lost cause
Obviously a pokemon with the ability to cleanly 1HKO or 2HKO majority of walls without a setup turn is problematic, but the counsil doesn't see a team consisting of multiple regen mons and recovery options as problematic. GF had to nerf healing PP and smogon never -really- banned anything that abused the 16 pp of recovery options before. So its just a matter of is this an argument of game balance or is it one about the mindset of what we want the meta to look like.
Just wanted to mention that the devs nerfing a game element, such as moves, abilities or even entire Pokémon, is not evidence in itself that they were ever game breaking, although it is often done in response to actually broken elements, sometimes it's just strategies that the devs don't want to be prominent even if they had more than enough counterplay in the past. A good example would be Talonflame, who despite not being broken according to broad consensus, was still nerfed to the ground, another would be Toxic being cut back in gen 8, they just wanted to get rid of archaic game design even if it wasn't ostensibly causing problems to the meta.
ookaaay....what EV spread and moveset do you suggest then?
are there any teamates that analytic magnezone needs in order to function?
fiiine I guess my comparison wasn't that good.
but I don't think that hazards will help that much.
regenerator can nulify both spikes and stealth rock, it absorbs toxic spikes and even it is so slow that it does not care about sticky web (yes I know that sticky web is not good this generation,I just don't want to leave the little guy out of the discussion).
this may change in the future if people start experimenting with it.
it run it both in gen 5 and gen 8, who is saying that it will not start running it again?
if an attack deals 90% damage and amoonguss clicks spore on that same turn, then it gets one free turn to use synthesis and increase its health to 60%.
from that point depending on if the opponent has or hasn't switch it can chose to either switch or heal again.
if it choses to switch when it comes back it is going to get a free 33% thus making its health 93%, and thats assuming that it is not holding a healing item.
it is matter of time until players realize that synthesis is a pretty good move.
okay, I guess this set is not all that bad, it is easy to forget that substitute protects from status moves since I almost never use it.
I really can't remember the last time I used a pokemon with substitute.
you think that slowking is going to see more usage now that pao is gone?
oh men, I hope that this turns out to be wrong but I would not be surprised if it turns out to be right.
this is not a OHKO. you can be put into sleep.
I didn't advocate for a ban because "I didn't know how to deal with it", I advocated for a ban because I considered the pokemon to be centralizing on top of the fact that it has the pottential to be busted.
Potential to be busted on what ? Sleep . Just 2 words - Sleep Clause . Ik 2 words actually won't be enough so , here it is :
2 mons in the tier literally don't care about Status moves . What did I say 2 , actually 3 - Hatterene . You take 90% from an attack ( just quoting your example) , spore and get what ? The mon switching out to something which you cannot spore any more . Sleep is most of the time 2 to max 3 turns , which the mon can easily burn on your passive amoonguss later on . Amoonguss cannot even touch Gholdengo without something like Tera Fire Tera Blast . Don't say that 20% from foul play allows you to win against Gholdengo . You wanted me to name something which is not a fire type , viable and kills Amoonguss ? 252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 408-482 (94.4 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 1 252 Atk Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 558-656 (129.1 - 151.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 482-570 (111.5 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If a mon cannot be OHKOed , it doesn't imply that it is broken . It takes a lot of chip from hazards which negate its regenerator healing .
Just wanted to mention that the devs nerfing a game element, such as moves, abilities or even entire Pokémon, is not evidence in itself that they were ever game breaking, although it is often done in response to actually broken elements, sometimes it's just strategies that the devs don't want to be prominent even if they had more than enough counterplay in the past. A good example would be Talonflame, who despite not being broken according to broad consensus, was still nerfed to the ground, another would be Toxic being cut back in gen 8, they just wanted to get rid of archaic game design even if it wasn't ostensibly causing problems to the meta.
To add onto your point, Gamefreak primarily balances the game around their own format (VGC), which is an entirely different metagams than Smogon OU. While it's true that there is some overlap in what's good and what's bad, it's far from perfect (Examples: Tatsugiri is extremely centralizing threat in VGC but is absolute trash in OU. On the flip side, Spectrier for a while was considered kinda bad in VGC last gen even before they allowed box legends, but anyone who played OU last gen before it got banned can testify to how stupid it was there). You really can't use the argument of "it has to be broken if it got nerfed" when the nerfs were made in mind with a completely different metagame than what we play.
Regen does not shrug off rocks or spikes. It heals by 33% and that number is reduced by rocks. Amoonguss ran mostly Hidden Power Fire in older gens to hit Ferro. Synthesis is mentioned in the strategy dex for Gen 5, however 9 times out of ten the former is chosen. Synthesis is usually just redundant on Amoonguss cause of Regen. If you switch into Amoonguss on Valiant and it clicks Psyshock, you are not gonna be clicking Spore for obvious reasons. You’re either forced out or sack the Amoonguss. From what I am gathering, this is about breaking Amoonguss and we have given you countless examples of mons that break it.
I had to spent a couple of minutes in order to find a non-rude way to respond to this.
if iron valiant does not use psychic tera it can not get a OHKO with psyshock (why even use psyshock?is it really that scared of blissey?) therefore you CAN use spore on it.
you keep acting as if syntesis will never become a thing on amoonguss but you don't really explain why that would never happen.
Something is centralizing or suspect worthy when it warps the meta in an unhealthy way.
Chi-Yu forced Garg/Pex/Ting cores. Espa forced Dirge, or random Tera Dark mons.
Amoonguss doesn’t do this, It has several top threats that force it out or break it, most of which even you admitted were solid answers.
okay I have to admit it, the pex was more out of hatred that it was not banned back in gen 8 where it absolutely deserved it rather than the trouble it gives me here.
but I still find it more annoying than garganacl which is a pokemon that does not annoy me in the slightest since there are plenty of answers to it and can not switch to pokemon with immunities to every single one of its weaknesses.
as for the corv...I still hate it.
You have a clear history of struggling and whining about defensive staples and asking for bans because you don’t have the patience to play what is essentially monster-collecting chess. Team structures, synergy, offensive cores, etc. If you have to rely on absurdly broken wallbreakers to break these mons you call overcentralizing, the defensive mons are not the problem, its just that you have a skill issue. Learn how to be patient, ask for advice on teambuilding, watch high ladder/tournament replays with Amoonguss, and most importantly, git good.
improving in this game is impossible (at least for me) since there are almost 0 straightforward videos/articles on team building anywhere on the internet.
there are plenty but they are not straightforward at all.
almost all of them just do the bare minimum of explaining basic things like what wall breaker and a revenge killer is and maaaaaaybe a few things about cores if you get lucky, then they live you on your own to magically figure out anything else, because god forbid they make something like an exact formula on how to built the team or point out mistakes in team building or even describe the roles and the niches pokemon have. the ONLY straightforward video I have ever watched was that video that grady cool's video on how to built a sticky web team.
that guy gave the EXACT formula anyone is suppossed to use.
I used that formula in gen 9,my sticky web team had some modderate success.
and the "rate my team" posts are useless 90% of the time, the player base either ignores the posts either give advice that does very little for the team or they can be somewhat toxic and accusse you for "rejecting their advice" if you dare to point out a single flaw in it (this happened at least once, where they kept acting as if I am "Rejecting their advice" although I repeatedly admited that they were right and my team was indeed weak to hazards and I was asking for ways to fix that weakness. I ended up asking a modderator to take down the post since communication with them was impossible.).
, etc... which you will see in the replays below.
to varying levels of success as they are less exploitable / direct beneficiaries from the pao ban. in gallade's case, it's a strong breaker with knock whose niche continues to become more valuable each meta shift with the tier's overall power levels decreasing
/ shed tail. 
[WINNER]
