Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Magcargo]

Set up sweepers do become pretty strong w/ Shed Tail. Strong Attackers also like it as a way to buffer potential revenge killing attempts from faster mons or Kingambit.

Something that surprised me was how good Orthworm is on its own. It's amazing ability and physical bulk are invaluable in this meta since it can check many key threats like D-Nite, Roaring Moon, Tusks (if it uses Tera Ghost), Kingambit, Meow, etc. This is invaluable utility considering how difficult these Pokemon are to check for offense otherwise. Shed Tail also grants an extra dimension to playing around these threats by granting something like your own Dnite a free switch. That being said, I normally see Shed Tail as more of a bonus when using Orthworm & find making use of its defensive profile to be more useful.

 

[Wapf]

Set up sweepers do become pretty strong w/ Shed Tail. Strong Attackers also like it as a way to buffer potential revenge killing attempts from faster mons or Kingambit.

Something that surprised me was how good Orthworm is on its own. It's amazing ability and physical bulk are invaluable in this meta since it can check many key threats like D-Nite, Roaring Moon, Tusks (if it uses Tera Ghost), Kingambit, Meow, etc. This is invaluable utility considering how difficult these Pokemon are to check for offense otherwise. Shed Tail also grants an extra dimension to playing around these threats by granting something like your own Dnite a free switch. That being said, I normally see Shed Tail as more of a bonus when using Orthworm & find making use of its defensive profile to be more useful.

I honestly would love to see what orthworm and cyclizar would be doing if their optimal role wasn’t being a shed tail bot. Obviously worm would drop but I feel like cyclizar could have some fun being an annoying regen pivot

 

[Magcargo]

I honestly would love to see what orthworm and cyclizar would be doing if their optimal role wasn’t being a shed tail bot. Obviously worm would drop but I feel like cyclizar could have some fun being an annoying regen pivot

Cyclizar was good at functioning as a Torn-T jr since it had Regen, Knock, fast U-Turn & Spin. I could very much see it being better as a utility mon if transfer moves arent a thing since Torn would lose most of its utility moves.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I honestly would love to see what orthworm and cyclizar would be doing if their optimal role wasn’t being a shed tail bot.

crying, mostly

Cyclizar was good at functioning as a Torn-T jr since it had Regen, Knock, fast U-Turn & Spin. I could very much see it being better as a utility mon if transfer moves arent a thing since Torn would lose most of its utility moves.

the main difference is that torn-t also has actual bulk and real attacking stats, which massively helped it out as a utility mon because it could come in more times than cyclizar can and also threaten things out. outside of its speed, shed tail, and the three moves you mentioned, cyclizar basically doesn't exist

 

[Mega Breloom]

I honestly would love to see what orthworm and cyclizar would be doing if their optimal role wasn’t being a shed tail bot. Obviously worm would drop but I feel like cyclizar could have some fun being an annoying regen pivot

Orth even with shed tail is a bad mon and nobody can convince me otherwise, however, something that I have been thinking is that when Smeargle comes back shed tail needs to go. Just imagine pivoting to a wall infront a strong mon that used u turn and then Smeargle gets a spore and a shed tail for free? while it can return after to use revival blessing.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Orth even with shed tail is a bad mon and nobody can convince me otherwise, however, something that I have been thinking is that when Smeargle comes back shed tail needs to go. Just imagine pivoting to a wall infront a strong mon that used u turn and then Smeargle gets a spore and a shed tail for free? while it can return after to use revival blessing.

yeah, if smeargle ever comes back, that's it for shed tail and revival blessing. or they'll just ban smeargle, but let's be real, shed tail is broken and revival blessing is a problem on basically any mon that isn't one of the two that get it (and also possibly on pawmot, i'm still not convinced there isn't some kind of cheese ebc-violating nonsense it can pull and i just don't think reviving a mon is a thing that should happen in general)

 

[awyp]

Shed Tail is a nuisance and polluting the ladder (and even tournaments) a lot more than we would like considering the fact that it’s uniquely cheesy. I could justify acting on it perhaps easier than either of the above, but at the same time I don’t know if it’s pressing or even as metagame warping as it once was. Definitely deserves continued discussion

I think out of everything on the list Shed Tail is the one thing that makes sense to look at before the release of HOME. I don't think Shed Tail inspires competitive gameplay it's pretty brainless for a majority of a time. Only thing a user needs to know is to cue the switch-in (Orth) to something that can't touch Orthworm [Like Great Tusk without a fighting move / Baxcalibur in general] and setup if on whichever mon looks good with a substitute based on the oppositions team. As I've mentioned in the past Orthworm might not be better than Cyclizar but there's certain things it does better like taking the hit prior to the substitute being passed vs Cyclizar where a majority of the time the substitute is taking the damage.

I don't think it's a cheese tech it's something that people find to be abusive / broken and they will continue to use it because the ease of use behind it.

As njnp mentioned a couple of posts ago there has been a large influx of Hyper Offensive teams (this is where the meta is leaning in general). Cyclizar's ban did not slow down the use of these teams, it actually is being abused more now.

| 32 | Orthworm | 5.370% | (Month of January, right after the Cyclizar ban)

| 17 | Orthworm | 11.687% | (Month of March, most recent)


https://pokepast.es/cd7bb516fe40f0ae (stolen from njnp's post)
https://pokepast.es/a3e6547d84f639b7 (stolen from njnp's post)
https://pokepast.es/41aee5632db78873 (stolen from njnp's post)
https://pokepast.es/275171d5adc95a30 (team of the week)
https://pokepast.es/c1d1d26a5195d77d (some bs I made)

If you look at these team they have a simple formula (Orthworm + 4 / 5 Shed Tail receivers), the one off will be an entry hazard remover or a screen setter.

The logic is simple and doesn't take much brain power, bring Orthworm once in the clear, pick which abuser you have the best matchup with based on the opposing teams mons available and go to town.

Below I'll link random games used in the most recent OU seasonal (Round 2 / 3) that exemplify the shed tail cheesing process and how it gets out of control pretty quickly:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-685696
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1835003452-6evg35s47962m9728q9aft47jti9a90pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1835413740
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1835427697-d2w4bjxwfjl0u1d8c9dru38dx2f4ti2pw

There's some matchup fishing involved but not an exorbitant amount of fishing needed in order to pull of the sweep because it forces the opposition to sack a mon they needed and it opens the team up to the rest of the mons, and that's my main issue with Shed Tail. It breaks open the opposing team via the need to breaking the sub or the game gets out of hand.

With the addition of other abusers that will be added post-HOME it will really just show how big of an issue this move is. Which is why I think there should be some sort of action, and I'm even in the camp to get a survey out to dictate the next steps (if the council sees it fit).

I think the increased usage of Orthworm is proving that it is a decent abuser but the move itself is what is making the mon enticing from jumping UU to OU in 2 months.

People always refer to this set:


Orthworm @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Earth Eater
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock
- Shed Tail

(As I said previously, you don't need a bunch of opportunities to setup, 2 times is more than enough to abuse Shed Tail for a W, and if played right you can abuse it 3 times [Because of Earth Eater])

You can also be really annoying with the set above and add Chesto Resto instead of Heavy Slam / Sitrus Berry or go with Rest / Sleep Talk > Heavy Slam / Stealth Rock. My point is the options are endless which creates more of a clusterfuck on how to prepare for it. People act like Orthworm is really restricting in comparison to Cyclizar in terms of the amount of times you can abuse Shed Tail but it really isn't because people are still scheming behind a free substitute.

I don't mind if Shed Tail never gets looked at but in reality I've always thought its quite an unfair tech and any playstyle that forces mindless plays needs to be eventually looked at.

Shed Tail can be as bullshit as Baton Pass was. I think Orthworm being in A- on the Viability Rankings + people nomming it for an even higher rank means its definitely not a cheesy strategy. In this meta, allowing anything to set up a free Substitute can result in things quickly getting out of hand. With its defensive traits, Orthworm can reliably pass a Substitute against a good chunk of the tier.

kingmickey27 brings up a great point that Baton Pass was banned in previous gens and aside from stat passing it works in a very similar manner a small difference is Baton Pass + Substitute took 2 turns instead of 1 turn and it's the difference of paying 25% vs 50% of your health. Yeah Baton Pass IMO as a whole was more of an issue, but I think there should be consideration on how similar both moves are in terms of how easy it was to abuse.

 

[RKOtaku]

If we are talking about uncompetitive things I don't see how Shed Tail is problematic while Salt Cure isn't.

There are a lot of ways to deal with Orthworm's HO for all kind of playstyles : Taunt, Encore, Haze, Whirlwind, Red Card, Unaware mons, Multi-hit moves, Infiltrator, sound moves, Curse from ghost types (ok this one is bad lol), Parting Shot (goes through Sub), Screens, fast scarfers (Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Cinderace, Greninja, Meowscarada) or damaging the Orthworm enough so it can't use Shed Tail.
(Even putting Mirror Herb on Dragapult is really scary for Shed Tail builds. It also applies to other Pokemons of course, I think the item is underexplored overall)

Ways to deal with Salt Cure for HO teams : Substitute and Covert Cloak.

As far as the former is concerned you are running moves or strategies that are useful whether you are facing a Shed Tail build or not. It can also be prevented with good positionning or prediction. I will admit that there is one thing that is really problematic about Shed Tail, it's the fact that sweepers can go out of hand thanks to Terastallization but the problem resides in Terastallization not Shed Tail... I just don't think a mechanic like Shed Tail that has real countermeasures should be banned because Terastallization is broken.

However that's not the case for Salt Cure which forces an entire playstyle to run a suboptimal move or item just for one move. The only reason Salt Cure isn't overwhelming for HO right now is thanks to Orthworm but the move stays broken and brainless regardless.
The only Pokemons that can fit on HO builds that would naturally run substitute are Volcarona, Baxcalibur and Hydreigon and unless the opponent sends Garganacl agaisnt these mons (which would never happen against Bax and Hydreigon) you will take damage every turn even if you K.O Garganacl or if it is switched out.

Salt Cure deals 25% PER TURN damage against Water and Steel Pokemons that would be natural switch ins to Garganacl and as I said above, it doesn't matter what happens to the Garganacl, you will take damage no matter what (unless you are running Covert Cloak which is just a terrible item nobody would use if it wasn't for Salt Cure).
The only moves that are comparable to Salt Cure are Leech Seed and Curse from Ghost types but there are several drawbacks to these moves :
Leech Seed can miss, doesn't affect grass types and you can get rid of it with Rapid Spin/Mortal Spin. Curse requires the user to sacrifice 50% of its health. The only Pokemon running theses moves are Screen Dragapult, Wo-Chien and Mimikyu and none of them are really hard to deal with.

I don't think Garganacl should be banned as it brings real utility to the tier and while the Pokemon is really hard to K.O it's fair, Salt Cure isn't. A move that forces an entire playstyle to run a suboptimal move in most cases (I'm not saying Substitute is bad, just that you don't want to/can't use it on every Pokemon on your team if you are using HO) or an item specifically for the move should not be allowed. I think the move Salt Cure should be quickbanned.

 

[Mikegengsta]

Ban shed tail

 

[YNM]

I'm fucking tired of this metagame. I've spent the last 3 days laddering and ALL I've seen are fucking HO teams spamming Orthworm every single time. High ladder is full of the same goddamn teams that either lose turn 1 because of prediction and matchup fishing or straight up sweep after pivoting with Orthworm to their setup mon. Do it right now, load a game in 1800+ and see what the first team that pops up is. Ooh I wonder if it's gonna be BO. I wonder if it'll be a Balanced team, or perhaps an Offense team with an original strategy, and I wonder how my team will be able to manage it. Maybe it'll be a stall team? Nope, it's Hyper fucking Offense yet again with that dumb ass worm, what a surprise.
Orthworm, Orthworm, Orthworm, oh another strategy, Orthworm, Orthworm.
What a fun, balanced metagame that definitely doesn't get boring after 3 games.

 

[658Greninja]

I'm fucking tired of this metagame. I've spent the last 3 days laddering and ALL I've seen are fucking HO teams spamming Orthworm every single time. High ladder is full of the same goddamn teams that either lose turn 1 because of prediction and matchup fishing or straight up sweep after pivoting with Orthworm to their setup mon. Do it right now, load a game in 1800+ and see what the first team that pops up is. Ooh I wonder if it's gonna be BO. I wonder if it'll be a Balanced team, or perhaps an Offense team with an original strategy, and I wonder how my team will be able to manage it. Maybe it'll be a stall team? Nope, it's Hyper fucking Offense yet again with that dumb ass worm, what a surprise.
Orthworm, Orthworm, Orthworm, oh another strategy, Orthworm, Orthworm.
What a fun, balanced metagame that definitely doesn't get boring after 3 games.

The Walking Wave unban and its consequences.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Ways to deal with Salt Cure for HO teams : Substitute and Covert Cloak.

ho is such a dominant playstyle this gen that i think it should just learn to live with salt cure. there are plenty of things that stall teams can't properly deal with—the entire term "stallbreaker" exists because of it—but introduce one thing that ho has trouble with and everyone loses their minds

 

[ant4456]

I think one of my big appreciations of Gen 9 OU, though, despite everything is the major return of the lead matchup metagame.

While being a good lead is a bonus for so many metagames, a lot of the times it's more like this: "I want to run Lando-T for this, and it happens to also be good as a lead. Success!"

I think that Glimmora has really brought back the lead metagame by being a Pokemon that is insanely difficult to stop from getting hazards up, in a meta where hazards are hard to get rid of, and being not slappable on non-HO teams. We've seen a lot more sets this gen that are largely made to stop Glimmora, or stop things that stop Glimmora, or something to that effect.

Leaf Storm Lead Meowscarada to help with Glimmora, and also stomp lead Tusk, as a fun example in my opinion.

Personally I always thought that the lead metagame is a lot more fun than -Trade Rocks -U Turn, and it has made the metagame more diverse in my opinion. It adds another role of utility a Pokemon can have.

 

[RKOtaku]

ho is such a dominant playstyle this gen that i think it should just learn to deal with it. there are plenty of things that stall teams can't deal with—the entire term "stallbreaker" exists because of it—but one thing that ho has trouble with and everyone loses their minds

HO has trouble with Unaware users amongst other competitive things and I don't have a problem with it. All I see is people complaining about Shed Tail without making compelling arguments, as I said in my message there are a bunch of effective countermeasures against Orthworm for using it and playing against it a lot on high ladder.

I don't even care if HO is on top of the meta or not, if something is uncompetitive even if against a single playstyle it has to be banned. It has been the case in previous generations and I don't see why we should let something broken because HO is good.
They could ban Shed Tail too if they think it's too restrictive in the current Tera meta but Salt Cure needs to go, period.

I prefer playing HO but I also like balance and stall teams on occasions so there is no need to act like I'm just a mad HO player that doesn't like something good against it and wants it gone.

 

[Finchinator]

If we are talking about uncompetitive things I don't see how Shed Tail is problematic while Salt Cure isn't.

There are a lot of ways to deal with Orthworm's HO for all kind of playstyles : Taunt, Encore, Haze, Whirlwind, Red Card, Unaware mons, Multi-hit moves, Infiltrator, sound moves, Curse from ghost types (ok this one is bad lol), Parting Shot (goes through Sub), Screens, fast scarfers (Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Cinderace, Greninja, Meowscarada) or damaging the Orthworm enough so it can't use Shed Tail.
(Even putting Mirror Herb on Dragapult is really scary for Shed Tail builds. It also applies to other Pokemons of course, I think the item is underexplored overall)

Ways to deal with Salt Cure for HO teams : Substitute and Covert Cloak.

As far as the former is concerned you are running moves or strategies that are useful whether you are facing a Shed Tail build or not. It can also be prevented with good positionning or prediction. I will admit that there is one thing that is really problematic about Shed Tail, it's the fact that sweepers can go out of hand thanks to Terastallization but the problem resides in Terastallization not Shed Tail... I just don't think a mechanic like Shed Tail that has real countermeasures should be banned because Terastallization is broken.

However that's not the case for Salt Cure which forces an entire playstyle to run a suboptimal move or item just for one move. The only reason Salt Cure isn't overwhelming for HO right now is thanks to Orthworm but the move stays broken and brainless regardless.
The only Pokemons that can fit on HO builds that would naturally run substitute are Volcarona, Baxcalibur and Hydreigon and unless the opponent sends Garganacl agaisnt these mons (which would never happen against Bax and Hydreigon) you will take damage every turn even if you K.O Garganacl or if it is switched out.

Salt Cure deals 25% PER TURN damage against Water and Steel Pokemons that would be natural switch ins to Garganacl and as I said above, it doesn't matter what happens to the Garganacl, you will take damage no matter what (unless you are running Covert Cloak which is just a terrible item nobody would use if it wasn't for Salt Cure).
The only moves that are comparable to Salt Cure are Leech Seed and Curse from Ghost types but there are several drawbacks to these moves :
Leech Seed can miss, doesn't affect grass types and you can get rid of it with Rapid Spin/Mortal Spin. Curse requires the user to sacrifice 50% of its health. The only Pokemon running theses moves are Screen Dragapult, Wo-Chien and Mimikyu and none of them are really hard to deal with.

I don't think Garganacl should be banned as it brings real utility to the tier and while the Pokemon is really hard to K.O it's fair, Salt Cure isn't. A move that forces an entire playstyle to run a suboptimal move in most cases (I'm not saying Substitute is bad, just that you don't want to/can't use it on every Pokemon on your team if you are using HO) or an item specifically for the move should not be allowed. I think the move Salt Cure should be quickbanned.

(Quick)Banning the move Salt Cure while not wanting to ban the only viable Pokemon that uses the move is certainly…a take. With all due respect, that’s not feasible and does not line-up with any tiering convention. If you want to act on anything here, it’s Garganacl. And I personally oppose that action for the reasoning I explained in my last post, but we are in no way acting on the move Salt Cure as things stand.

If a single Pokemon is broken, we ban the Pokemon. There is no labeling a move as broken itself when only one user is problematic as we don’t have a larger sample and, therefore, lack the burden of proof to isolate it as categorically broken. We cannot just fragment Pokemon like this.

 

[Red Raven]

Personally I always thought that the lead metagame is a lot more fun than -Trade Rocks -U Turn, and it has made the metagame more diverse in my opinion. It adds another role of utility a Pokemon can have.

I couldn't agree more. I don't play competitive pokemon anymore because it is a hazard to my sanity but before I stopped playing, I really did appreciate Gen 9. As someone who has been very active during the Crown Tundra, I clearly remember how boring and dragging games can get. Spamming toxic, knock off, u turn and stealth were so riskless that even fucking Tornadus kept doing it. God help anyone that ends up with a Toxapex and Clefable facing each other in gen 8. That battle is probably gonna drag on for over an hour

 

[RKOtaku]

(Quick)Banning the move Salt Cure while not wanting to ban the only viable Pokemon that uses the move is certainly…a take. With all due respect, that’s not feasible and does not line-up with any tiering convention. If you want to act on anything here, it’s Garganacl. And I personally oppose that action for the reasoning I explained in my last post, but we are in no way acting on the move Salt Cure as things stand.

If a single Pokemon is broken, we ban the Pokemon. There is no labeling a move as broken itself when only one user is problematic as we don’t have a larger sample and, therefore, lack the burden of proof to isolate it as categorically broken. We cannot just fragment Pokemon like this.

I know that it is how Smogon works but I just don't think banning useful Pokemons that bring diversity and utility in the teambuilding aspect is better than banning a problematic move. Another clear example is Last Respect, we all know the move is beyond broken yet Houndstone was banned. I bet that Basculegion will be broken too once it releases and the only thing that operating like that does is restricting the metagame for no real reason.
I wouldn't apply this line of thinking on Gorilla Tactics for example but certain things are clearly problematic and banning entire Pokemon because of it is a shame in my opinion especially considering Garganacl is a good answer to Dragapult and the overwhelming ghost stab in general.

My point still stands on Salt Cure though so if Garganacl needs to be banned because of it then so be it.

 

[1LDK]

This is only personal opinion, and something that is rare coming from me, but I think shed tail should go before garga

While I hate garga more, and it's totally ban worthy, due to its ability to just stop the momentum of any team no matter how offensive it is, a great reason of why I hate gen 8 so much is because its offense is uninspiring, boring, and does not reward intelligent play, and Shed tail offense is making every team the same boring structure of

>
> / / /
>
>
> /
> / /

This team structure is brainless, boring, and does not reward good play
is it beatable? Yes, but just like Kartana on any gen its been in, it asks for too much, and even that can fail

While gen 9 is a way better experience than gen 8, this has become a problem that I think we need to prioritize, even if that means that garganacl is not getting banned (which I fucking despise that mon too, and I have talked about it a ton before)

IMO, banning Garganacl, Shed Tail and Walking Wake would benefit the meta a lot, because Garga and WW are both broken, both check each other, so either no one gets the boot, or both get the boot, and shed tail for the reasons I already explained

And also, banning shed tail means Cyclizar gets to be in the tier and that guy adds A TON of utility for both sides, and would help a lot with the hazard stack, defense, offense, balance, etc. sounds healthy in theory, and i hope im not wrong

 

[Pietrym]

I have to disagree with the people saying Garganacl is unbalanced. It's a wall; it's not supposed to be easy to break through and if it was, there would be no point in using it. Even still, there are plenty of ways to threaten it and keep it in check, with Covert Cloak being the biggest one. People will contest this by saying that Cloak is a trash item that is only useful for this one purpose, but I believe that Cloak is a genuinely good item that has plenty of use cases. Mons like Goldengo and Corv, for example, go from never wanting to switch into Salt Cure to switching into Garg for breakfast when holding Cloak, and even outside of that, mons like Great Tusk, Greninja, Garchomp, Breloom, and more niche options like Sandy Shocks and Gallade all threaten it reliably while running more standard sets. Yes, getting walled out by Garg is mega annoying, but the ability to prevent that is very much existent.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I have to disagree with the people saying Garganacl is unbalanced. It's a wall; it's not supposed to be easy to break through and if it was, there would be no point in using it. Even still, there are plenty of ways to threaten it and keep it in check, with Covert Cloak being the biggest one. People will contest this by saying that Cloak is a trash item that is only useful for this one purpose, but I believe that Cloak is a genuinely good item that has plenty of use cases. Mons like Goldengo and Corv, for example, go from never wanting to switch into Salt Cure to switching into Garg for breakfast when holding Cloak, and even outside of that, mons like Great Tusk, Greninja, Garchomp, Breloom, and more niche options like Sandy Shocks and Gallade all threaten it reliably while running more standard sets. Yes, getting walled out by Garg is mega annoying, but the ability to prevent that is very much existent.

It is a wall with Groudon's bulk, an ability that makes it inmune to status and gives it an aditional resistence, a move even more brainless than scald and access to set up moves that can beat the little counterplay it has. Garg isn't problematic because just one factor, it is all the tools it has. Without the status inmunity it would be as easy as using toxic spikes to don't worry about it but that isn't an option against it, a well played Garg with the right set can beat almost any team with the only reliable ways to beat it is unaware mons with sub (and burning your tera in drige's case) or a regen core to pp stall it, since again, curse/iron defense can beat convert cloak mons.

 

[Magcargo]

Feels like Garg stocks have been on a downward trend, mainly because of some strong offensive threats that can exploit it like Sub Hydreigon & Orthworm. In general, offensive teams feel like they can leave it w/ little room to breathe.

EDIT: Gotta stop talking about Orthworm / SubNP Hydreigon lol. Feels like every post I make mentions them in some capacity.

Don't mention SubNP Hydreigon / Orthworm challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

 

[Fabriisse]

If we are talking about uncompetitive things I don't see how Shed Tail is problematic while Salt Cure isn't.

There are a lot of ways to deal with Orthworm's HO for all kind of playstyles : Taunt, Encore, Haze, Whirlwind, Red Card, Unaware mons, Multi-hit moves, Infiltrator, sound moves, Curse from ghost types (ok this one is bad lol), Parting Shot (goes through Sub), Screens, fast scarfers (Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Cinderace, Greninja, Meowscarada) or damaging the Orthworm enough so it can't use Shed Tail.
(Even putting Mirror Herb on Dragapult is really scary for Shed Tail builds. It also applies to other Pokemons of course, I think the item is underexplored overall)

Ways to deal with Salt Cure for HO teams : Substitute and Covert Cloak.

As far as the former is concerned you are running moves or strategies that are useful whether you are facing a Shed Tail build or not. It can also be prevented with good positionning or prediction. I will admit that there is one thing that is really problematic about Shed Tail, it's the fact that sweepers can go out of hand thanks to Terastallization but the problem resides in Terastallization not Shed Tail... I just don't think a mechanic like Shed Tail that has real countermeasures should be banned because Terastallization is broken.

However that's not the case for Salt Cure which forces an entire playstyle to run a suboptimal move or item just for one move. The only reason Salt Cure isn't overwhelming for HO right now is thanks to Orthworm but the move stays broken and brainless regardless.
The only Pokemons that can fit on HO builds that would naturally run substitute are Volcarona, Baxcalibur and Hydreigon and unless the opponent sends Garganacl agaisnt these mons (which would never happen against Bax and Hydreigon) you will take damage every turn even if you K.O Garganacl or if it is switched out.

Salt Cure deals 25% PER TURN damage against Water and Steel Pokemons that would be natural switch ins to Garganacl and as I said above, it doesn't matter what happens to the Garganacl, you will take damage no matter what (unless you are running Covert Cloak which is just a terrible item nobody would use if it wasn't for Salt Cure).
The only moves that are comparable to Salt Cure are Leech Seed and Curse from Ghost types but there are several drawbacks to these moves :
Leech Seed can miss, doesn't affect grass types and you can get rid of it with Rapid Spin/Mortal Spin. Curse requires the user to sacrifice 50% of its health. The only Pokemon running theses moves are Screen Dragapult, Wo-Chien and Mimikyu and none of them are really hard to deal with.

I don't think Garganacl should be banned as it brings real utility to the tier and while the Pokemon is really hard to K.O it's fair, Salt Cure isn't. A move that forces an entire playstyle to run a suboptimal move in most cases (I'm not saying Substitute is bad, just that you don't want to/can't use it on every Pokemon on your team if you are using HO) or an item specifically for the move should not be allowed. I think the move Salt Cure should be quickbanned.

Yeah but recover has only 8pp and garganacl has lot of trouble against great tusk's knock off, spikes and sr are like everywhere so you have to make sure to remove it has garg is mon that will switch in a lot of time.so it's a little bit abusive to say that sub or covert cloak are the only way to bit garg.

 

[Ast0rga]

Can you stop Shed tail? Yes.
Can you stop Volcarona? Yes.
Can you stop Walking Wake? Yes.

Can you stop Garganacl? No.
Literally, every team with Garganacl wins all of its games.
If both teams have Garg then it's like flipping a coin. Or dropping bread with butter on top of a cat. I have seen computers that stopped working after Garg mirror matches.

It's easy which one to pick for a suspect now is it?

 

[kingmickey27]

There are a lot of ways to deal with Orthworm's HO for all kind of playstyles : Taunt, Encore, Haze, Whirlwind, Red Card, Unaware mons, Multi-hit moves, Infiltrator, sound moves, Curse from ghost types (ok this one is bad lol), Parting Shot (goes through Sub), Screens, fast scarfers (Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Cinderace, Greninja, Meowscarada) or damaging the Orthworm enough so it can't use Shed Tail.

I disagree with this. A smart player will know the opportune time to bring Orthworm in and use its great defensive profile to pass a free Substitute (therefore, damaging Orthworm enough so it can't sub is often not realistic). A typical scenario is Orthworm -> Roaring Moon. Orthworm will be sent in on a Pokemon it can take advantage of (passive variants of Great Tusk/Garg, other passive mons like Ting-Lu and such). While you have an unfavorable matchup and are forced to switch out, Roaring Moon (or any speed booster) will set up and it'll be too late to Encore/Taunt. Furthermore, very few pokemon have Unaware, Haze, Red Card, Whirlwind, Multi-Hit moves, and such, and not every Pokemon is splashable. For instance, Toxapex is one of the few mons with Haze, but it's also incredibly easy to take advantage of bc its so passive. You also have to taken into account Tera as well as the potential recipient having Taunt to shut these strategies down.

People have made the same argument for Baton Pass in the past. There are dedicated counters for it, sure. And the strategy isn't unbeatable. But it was still considered broken in a similar vein.

 

[Magcargo]

I disagree with this. A smart player will know the opportune time to bring Orthworm in and use its great defensive profile to pass a free Substitute (therefore, damaging Orthworm enough so it can't sub is often not realistic). A typical scenario is Orthworm -> Roaring Moon. Orthworm will be sent in on a Pokemon it can take advantage of (passive variants of Great Tusk/Garg, other passive mons like Ting-Lu and such). While you have an unfavorable matchup and are forced to switch out, Roaring Moon (or any speed booster) will set up and it'll be too late to Encore/Taunt. Furthermore, very few pokemon have Unaware, Haze, Red Card, Whirlwind, Multi-Hit moves, and such, and not every Pokemon is splashable. For instance, Toxapex is one of the few mons with Haze, but it's also incredibly easy to take advantage of bc its so passive. You also have to taken into account Tera as well as the potential recipient having Taunt to shut these strategies down.

People have made the same argument for Baton Pass in the past. There are dedicated counters for it, sure. And the strategy isn't unbeatable. But it was still considered broken in a similar vein.

Half the reason Baton Pass was broken was because of full BP chains & ability to super-boost certain Pokemon like Togekiss or Latios. The ability to pass boost from Quiver Dance / Shell Smash / Geomancy, particularly when combined w/ Spore or Sleep Powder + full chains being extremely strong is what pushed it over the edge imo. Some individual passers like Scolipede were also extremely strong on their own due to having Speed boost + a variety of boosting options to pass. I have never heard of anyone complain about Subpassing in prior generations when Baton Pass was legal (maybe discourse has changed now idk). I don't think Shed Tail is too comparable to Baton Pass anyways because of the inability to pass boosts, though the Subpass in one turn compared to 2 is very strong.

IDK, I'm somewhat mixed on banning Shed Tail because it isn't "free" by any stretch of the imagination and using the move does have oppurtunity cost in drastically reducing Orthworm's ability to check various threats like DDNite or Roaring Moon (which has 100% mattered for me in various MUs). Most of the time, the "bullshit" part of Shed Tail feels like it comes from the abusers like Baxcalibur, Volcarona, or Polteageist + Tera, which can be easy to autolose to regardless of whether or not they get the Shed Tail pass, but not having to run Sub makes them much harder to deal with. Not helping matters is that pretty much everything and their mother runs Tera Fairy, making infiltrator Dragapult an ass response to sub sweepers because they can just setup on it anyways while it waste a turn doing nothing. Toxapex is not an answer to sub sweepers either because its doing shit damage to the sub, letting the opponent just whale on it to wear it down & eventually brute force past it.