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Resource SV OU Viability Ranking Thread [ UPDATE: POST #751 ]

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JoeMama said:
Wouldn't it have to run covert cloak for Garg? Or are you saying it should be running it
Should be running it. Bulky mons that have access to active recovery (Recover, Slack Off, etc.) are great Cloak users.
That_Dwayneee said:
I feel the need to mention that I was referring to sticky hold gastrodon rather than storm drain
IMO, Storm Drain > Sticky Hold. Gives you more immunities.
 
SpritePony said:
Should be running it. Bulky mons that have access to active recovery (Recover, Slack Off, etc.) are great Cloak users.

The only reason to use cloak on any mon is because of Garg. In such a hazard heavy metagame, they would rather be running items like boots or lefties. Not running leftovers or boots makes these slow walls easy to put on the backfoot by hazards (especially spikes), and the lower recovery PP especially makes this very exploitable.
 
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Moyashi said:
The only reason to use cloak on any mon is because of Garg. In such a hazard heavy metagame, they would rather be running items like boots or lefties. Not running leftovers or boots makes these slow walls easy to put on the backfoot by hazards (especially spikes), and the lower recovery PP especially makes this very exploitable.
Honestly, I can't say I agree. While Lefties is good on Gastro, not having to deal with SpDef drops when staring down Dengos is really, really nice. They're a 3 to 4HKO on you, and you're 1 to 2HKO (depending upon if you have Storm Drain boost or not.)
 
SpritePony said:
While Lefties is good on Gastro, not having to deal with SpDef drops when staring down Dengos is really, really nice.

That's all well and good, but remove Garg from the equation, then Cloak is clearly sub-optimal and is arguably barely a niche item for very specific builds, perhaps comparable in usefulness to Protective Pads.
 
McGrrr said:
That's all well and good, but remove Garg from the equation, then Cloak is clearly sub-optimal and is arguably barely a niche item for very specific builds, perhaps comparable in usefulness to Protective Pads.

And if you remove Stealth Rocks from the equation, HDB aren't nearly as good.

Stealth Rock is here to stay, though. And, at least for the moment, so is Salt Cure. The fact that it's just one mon shouldn't have any bearing on how effective the item is. After all, it's not as though Serene Grace has had the widest distribution, either.

Seriously, though. Most of Pokemon's competitive history would have killed for an anti-hax item. Now we actually have one, and from community reaction, you'd assume it was as effective as holding an Everstone.
 
McGrrr said:
That's all well and good, but remove Garg from the equation, then Cloak is clearly sub-optimal and is arguably barely a niche item for very specific builds, perhaps comparable in usefulness to Protective Pads.
False. The amount of times I've used it to beat Dengo 1v1 with them praying for a SpDef drop from Shadow Ball is off the charts.
 
Rootb said:
And if you remove Stealth Rocks from the equation, HDB aren't nearly as good.

Difference is, mons can be viable with boots and not be terribly impeded. Plus rocks are far more widespread. Whereas defensive Pokemon like Gastro feel pressured to run cloak because of Garganacl so they can fulfill duties they normally do just fine, with items that have far wider reaching applications, whether lefties or boots, or even something specific like helmet to punish U-turn spam. There's a significant cost to running Covert Cloak over these items.

Rootb said:
Seriously, though. Most of Pokemon's competitive history would have killed for an anti-hax item. Now we actually have one, and from community reaction, you'd assume it was as effective as holding an Everstone.

Because it's a very theorymonned concept that in practice, isn't that practical in most contexts. Preventing hax like status from thunderbolt, flamethrower, icebeam or preventing stat drops from crunch/shadow ball SOUNDS cool, or preventing flinches from iron head. But in practice, you can simply account for much of this through better building or playing. Sure there are some Pokemon that can cheese past their few answers with flinches or defense stat drops and then proceed to be very hard to handle, but Covert Cloak being able to prevent this doesn't make something less crazy. It just means youre running an overly specific item to not get rolled by them. Which says more about that mon than the item being useful.

The sole actually consistently and widely useful application would be to deal with scald spam, but seeing as the move more or less doesn't exist outside Volcanion when HOME releases, that is sort of moot.

SpritePony said:
False. The amount of times I've used it to beat Dengo 1v1 with them praying for a SpDef drop from Shadow Ball is off the charts.

If the Dhengo player is staying in trying to fish for spdef drops on a Pokemon that isn't even 3HKOd from full by shadow ball unless specs and has SE stab to threaten them back with, then the Dhengo player is playing badly. That's not cloak being useful.
 
Moyashi said:
If the Dhengo player is staying in trying to fish for spdef drops on a Pokemon that isn't even 3HKOd from full by shadow ball unless specs and has SE stab to threaten them back with, then the Dhengo player is playing badly. That's not cloak being useful.
It's the same fucking logic as was parroted many times in the OU thread about Cloak; With items you actively see, you'll always look at it and say "I won this interaction/battle because of this item." but when it's something invisible like Covert Cloak, you don't say such things because you can't see the blocked rolls. It's an entire logical fallacy.

Cloak allows you to do so much. Mystical Fire can't drop your SpAtk, Shadow Ball can't drop your SpDef, Tri Attack can't burn, poison, or paralyze you, the list goes on and on and on. Just because you don't SEE the blocked rolls doesn't mean that it's a bad item lmfao. Let's take a look at the various switch-ins that Gastro can pull with Cloak WITHOUT fear of secondary effects;
Dragapult Shadow Ball - No SpDef drops
Garganacl Salt Cure - Take minimal damage and no Salt Cure effects
Gholdengo - Take a tiny chunk from Make It Rain, no SpDef drops from Focus Miss/Shadow Ball/Psychic
Greninja - No flinches from Dark Pulse, no freezes from Ice Beam, no flinches from Extrasensory
Hatterene - No SpAtk drops from Mystical Fire, no SpDef drops from Psychic (if they run Psychic over Psyshock)
Iron Moth - No poison from Sludge Wave
Iron Valiant - No SpAtk drops from Moonblast, no SpDef drops from Psychic/Shadow Ball/etc.,
Pelipper - No confusion from Hurricane
Skeledirge - No SpDef drops from Shadow Ball or Earth Power
Hydreigon - No flinches from Dark Pulse, no stat drops from Flash Cannon or Earth Power, no burn from Flamethrower

These are a lot of potential damage switch-ins that could cause problems should those hax come up. Cloak isn't JUST about beating Garg, and it isn't JUST about Dengo staying in and hoping for SpDef drops. Hell, it even helps vs cheese strats like ParaFlinch bullshit. Don't discount Covert Cloak.
 
SpritePony said:
Let's take a look at the various switch-ins that Gastro can pull with Cloak WITHOUT fear of secondary effects;
Dragapult Shadow Ball - No SpDef drops
Garganacl Salt Cure - Take minimal damage and no Salt Cure effects
Gholdengo - Take a tiny chunk from Make It Rain, no SpDef drops from Focus Miss/Shadow Ball/Psychic
Greninja - No flinches from Dark Pulse, no freezes from Ice Beam, no flinches from Extrasensory
Hatterene - No SpAtk drops from Mystical Fire, no SpDef drops from Psychic (if they run Psychic over Psyshock)
Iron Moth - No poison from Sludge Wave
Iron Valiant - No SpAtk drops from Moonblast, no SpDef drops from Psychic/Shadow Ball/etc.,
Pelipper - No confusion from Hurricane
Skeledirge - No SpDef drops from Shadow Ball or Earth Power
Hydreigon - No flinches from Dark Pulse, no stat drops from Flash Cannon or Earth Power, no burn from Flamethrower

Gastro already walls a significant amount of these without issue, without even needing Cloak. Against Gastrodon, players using special attackers will eye damage calcs rather than foolishly fish for flinches or drops, unless Gastro is in potential 2HKO range. There's also a major issue with a number of these scenarios you failed to list:

Let's look at this with hazards
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 147-174 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Instantly forced to recover so it can switch in later

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 109-129 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Same here. Shadow ball+spikes puts it into 2HKO range next time it switches in unless it recovers.

Greninja is the same as Dragapult.
Hatterene literally calm minds in Gastro's face.
Iron Moth has energy ball.
Iron Valiant forces recovery with specs moonblast. Mixed beats it easily.
Skeledirge... Better hope you weren't wisped or hex will force you to recover spam.
Hydreigon beats Gastro anyways so not sure why it's here.

Gastro is quite passive in the meta as is, but so many attacks will force it to heal if hazards are up too (and chances are, they will be). Even weak attacks that just chip it are a problem since leftovers isn't healing it off.

SpritePony said:
These are a lot of potential damage switch-ins that could cause problems should those hax come up. Cloak isn't JUST about beating Garg, and it isn't JUST about Dengo staying in and hoping for SpDef drops. Hell, it even helps vs cheese strats like ParaFlinch bullshit. Don't discount Covert Cloak.

So as I pointed out above, cloak isn't solving issues. It's just pushing them elsewhere. Whereas with lefties it won't be 3HKOd by shadow balls and heals off damage, forcing something that can't break you out, this lets you spike or set up rocks, generating some momentum. But most importantly again, unless there's a good roll to KO, most of these mons aren't just gonna stay in and fish for a drop. They'll just switch out. By the way, para flinch hasn't been a reliable or common play style for some time now. Not now and not last gen either.

Cloak isn't horrible on paper but it's also solely risen in usage because of Garganacl and would not be seeing such high usage if it wasn't for the rock. And on passive Pokemon, cloak IS bad. Gastrodon's viability in general is fairly fringe right now outside blanking RotomW and sort of soft checking some threats while providing hazards, but it's a very passive and flawed mon and cloak isn't an item worth running on it.
 
Moyashi said:
Gastro already walls a significant amount of these without issue, without even needing Cloak. Against Gastrodon, players using special attackers will eye damage calcs rather than foolishly fish for flinches or drops, unless Gastro is in potential 2HKO range. There's also a major issue with a number of these scenarios you failed to list:

Let's look at this with hazards
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 147-174 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Instantly forced to recover so it can switch in later

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 109-129 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Same here. Shadow ball+spikes puts it into 2HKO range next time it switches in unless it recovers.

Greninja is the same as Dragapult.
Hatterene literally calm minds in Gastro's face.
Iron Moth has energy ball.
Iron Valiant forces recovery with specs moonblast. Mixed beats it easily.
Skeledirge... Better hope you weren't wisped or hex will force you to recover spam.
Hydreigon beats Gastro anyways so not sure why it's here.

Gastro is quite passive in the meta as is, but so many attacks will force it to heal if hazards are up too (and chances are, they will be). Even weak attacks that just chip it are a problem since leftovers isn't healing it off.



So as I pointed out above, cloak isn't solving issues. It's just pushing them elsewhere. Whereas with lefties it won't be 3HKOd by shadow balls and heals off damage, forcing something that can't break you out, this lets you spike or set up rocks, generating some momentum. But most importantly again, unless there's a good roll to KO, most of these mons aren't just gonna stay in and fish for a drop. They'll just switch out. By the way, para flinch hasn't been a reliable or common play style for some time now. Not now and not last gen either.

Cloak isn't horrible on paper but it's also solely risen in usage because of Garganacl and would not be seeing such high usage if it wasn't for the rock. And on passive Pokemon, cloak IS bad. Gastrodon's viability in general is fairly fringe right now outside blanking RotomW and sort of soft checking some threats while providing hazards, but it's a very passive and flawed mon and cloak isn't an item worth running on it.
Please, by all means, define "passive". I'm pretty sure nuking a Dengo in two hits is a FAR cry from "passive". Most Gastros are most likely the "standard" set of Chilling Water, Spikes, SR, Recover... But that certainly isn't my Gastro.

Scarf Dengo vs Cloak Gastro
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 109-129 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
12 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 198-234 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hex + Wisp Dirge vs Cloak Gastro
8 SpA Skeledirge Hex (130 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 126-148 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
12 SpA Gastrodon Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 158-188 (38.4 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO <-- KOs before Dirge due to having one attack turn up on it.

Specs Valiant vs Cloak Gastro
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 180-213 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
12 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 139-165 (48 - 57%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO

Do hazards make a difference? Yes. However, hazards are not ALWAYS up, and no matter which way we look at this IN A VACUUM, Gastro still does amazing work. It's very much a GOOD side-grade to Clodsire, with some major upsides to it that Clod doesn't have; namely slightly better physical bulk, better offensive stats, less weaknesses, and better dual STAB. The three things Clod has over it are Water Absorb over Storm Drain, Unaware (which I never use), and Toxic.
 
SpritePony said:
Please, by all means, define "passive". I'm pretty sure nuking a Dengo in two hits is a FAR cry from "passive". Most Gastros are most likely the "standard" set of Chilling Water, Spikes, SR, Recover... But that certainly isn't my Gastro.

Min HP/Spdef Dengo gets NUKED from FULL in two turns by GASTRODON (not passive) and they FORGOT they could SWITCH in literally ANY OTHER MON (gone sexual) (gone wrong)

ok but like seriously, what does this thing beat? you literally just showed us 3 matchups it "wins" that it can't switch into even from full lol

also, your only argument against hazards chipping this thing to oblivion is
SpritePony said:
hazards are not ALWAYS up, and no matter which way we look at this IN A VACUUM, Gastro still does amazing work.
which i find hilarious
 
:bw/hydreigon:

B- to A-.
This is a drastic change, but I think hydreigon should be in A tier due to having 2 useful niches.

NICHE 1: SPECS WALLBREAKER

:xy/hydreigon:
Running Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse, Flash Cannon and Focus Blast with Tera dark, this set is the bane of balance teams. CLODSIRE gets shredded by Draco meteor spam with unaware ignoring SpA drop. Dark pulse can crush balance teams as it is very spammable. Combine it with Focus Blast, and it has wide coverage, hitting Ting-Lu very hard with fighting coverage and crushing Kingambit. Flash Cannon rips apart many fairy types. This set is stopped by Azu tho.

NICHE 2: DEFOGGER

:sv/hydreigon:

Hydreigon is a defogger that can beat Gholdengo. This set is the same as the choice specs set except it has Draco swapped for Defoe and a different item and Tera. It has levitate, so it can withstand many rounds of hazard damage. It can unleash offenses and anything that can withstand it is defog fodder.

Defog is MUCH harder to block than rapid spin and mortal spin, as it has only 1 immunity, so some teams may want to use it.
 
ausma said:
folks, loving the discussion on covert cloak as a whole, but this is the viability rankings thread!! plz take it to the primary metagame discussion thread unless you have a nomination to make on specific pokemon that are influenced by the cloak. ty!

I apologize for taking the thread off topic. I honestly should have let it go. That's my bad.

Anyways to not just make this a one liner (and last from me for a while)

breloom.pngB+ -> A-
While it's true that Breloom has some reliable switch ins into spore, namely Amoonguss and Gholdengo, outside these two there isn't much that can block spore that also can comfortably take it's attacks. Even Gholdengo isn't always perfect into it, as seen here it can tech Bulldoze for it to beat it. It's not a horrible tera abuser either, and is great at pressuring common defensive mons like RotomW, Dondozo and even Clodsire. It's good at generation momentum. I don't think much has necessarily changed outright, so much as I think Breloom is much better than everything in B+ (aside from Meow maybe) and is a very practical Pokemon in the meta right now.

pelipper.pngB- -> B
I think Pelipper is a genuinely okay mon even outside rain. It's a rare mon that walls both Great Tusk stabs while not being terribly passive because of 100% acc hurricanes, and if you feel like dropping knock off, Surf is solidly strong even uninvested thanks to rain. Thanks to this, Pelipper can this check some common mons like Great Tusk, Cinderace, some Garchomp variants, and push damage on the opponent if they switch these mons out. It's not that easy to fit, and due to Tusk using knock, necessitates good anti hazard support, but I think this side of Pelipper is underappreciated and deserves a raise, along with the fact rain got a buff in Greninja.

scizor.pngB+ -> B
Maybe I'm missing something, but this thing's best days are behind it. Too many defensive Pokemon wall it even while banded, it doesn't really check much with Bullet Punch outside Chien Pain (which it can't switch into comfortably), and Iron Valiant. It's too prone to being worn down by hazards without roost and I don't think it's a very good steel type anymore in the meta.
 
Lobby Eeveee said:
:bw/hydreigon:

B- to A-.
This is a drastic change, but I think hydreigon should be in A tier due to having 2 useful niches.

NICHE 1: SPECS WALLBREAKER

:xy/hydreigon:
Running Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse, Flash Cannon and Focus Blast with Tera dark, this set is the bane of balance teams. CLODSIRE gets shredded by Draco meteor spam with unaware ignoring SpA drop. Dark pulse can crush balance teams as it is very spammable. Combine it with Focus Blast, and it has wide coverage, hitting Ting-Lu very hard with fighting coverage and crushing Kingambit. Flash Cannon rips apart many fairy types. This set is stopped by Azu tho.

NICHE 2: DEFOGGER

:sv/hydreigon:

Hydreigon is a defogger that can beat Gholdengo. This set is the same as the choice specs set except it has Draco swapped for Defoe and a different item and Tera. It has levitate, so it can withstand many rounds of hazard damage. It can unleash offenses and anything that can withstand it is defog fodder.

Defog is MUCH harder to block than rapid spin and mortal spin, as it has only 1 immunity, so some teams may want to use it.


Bro, don,t give me false hopes:

1675594618397.png
 
Lobby Eeveee said:
What is the benefit of running lvl 5 hydreigon

I was building a LC team when I noticed your post about Hydreigon. Btw, I agree with a rise, but just to B. Its a decent fast rocker with U-Turn and capable of killing Tusk with Hydro Pump, without LO:

252 SpA Hydreigon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 384-454 (88.4 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 384-454 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Overall, its a decent Mon that fills many roles, though its far from dominant in any of it. thats why B looks good.
 
Lobby Eeveee said:
NICHE 2: DEFOGGER

:sv/hydreigon:

Hydreigon is a defogger that can beat Gholdengo. This set is the same as the choice specs set except it has Draco swapped for Defoe and a different item and Tera. It has levitate, so it can withstand many rounds of hazard damage. It can unleash offenses and anything that can withstand it is defog fodder.

Defog is MUCH harder to block than rapid spin and mortal spin, as it has only 1 immunity, so some teams may want to use it.
A reminder to only post nominations once you use the Pokemon; as stated, Hydreigon does not learn Defog currently.
 
SpritePony said:
Should be running it. Bulky mons that have access to active recovery (Recover, Slack Off, etc.) are great Cloak users.

IMO, Storm Drain > Sticky Hold. Gives you more immunities.
sticky hold gives you a key immunity to trick however, allowing it to be the best check to scarf ghold and scarf washtom in the tier, since every other mon that otherwise walls ghold is afraid of getting tricked a scarf.
 
Hello everybody, its me 1LDK, and i wanna share some "spicy" nominations about some mons running around

:Corviknight: from A ----------> A-

Yes, that's right, this bird? Kinda balls, and I'm tired to pretend that it has as strong presence on the meta as gen 8 if you take gholdengo out

From the A list it loses to Ace, Hat if packing Mystical Fire (and even if it doesn't, you can just Nuzzle and open up hax) Rotom, Skele, Volcarona and even Roaring Moon can potentially brute force its way out with enough momentum, and it loses to almost anything in the A+ to S except for Kingambit if running Body Press (but BP is a suboptimal move in this meta thanks to all the ghost in the meta) Dragonite (who can potentially forgo EQ to do a little trolling with Fire Punch or Fire Spin) and Great Tusk (which that one is a good matchup for corv ill admit)

Corvi has a rough time trying to remove hazards and generate momentum because in every game it feels like it has to take everything, and it's extremely easy to punish, especially when 3 of the most broken mons in this meta are chien pao, gholdengo or garganacl, and "U-turn on the switching" is a meme, because you're not really doing anything, unless is a guaranteed hard counter, corvi will take insane damage and eventually it will be easily exploitable. This is why Tera Dark Bulk Up + Power Trip is in my personal opinion it's best set, because it can potentially beat all of this problems by doing it himself instead of relying on having to give up turns, but I don't think I can seriously sell you on this set, and it still can potentially lose to Gholdengo and Skele if your fast enough, or you have burned your tera

:Meowscarada: from B+ -------------> A- or even A honestly

Okay so this is my least favorite mon because I'm allergic to cats in real life and please ban:,33

For real tho, with the ban of Chien Pao in the horizon, Meowscarada is going to become the second-fastest treat in the metagame, Choice Banded Flower trick is nuts, Choice Scarf, while not as powerful, is starting to gain traction thanks to its ability to shit on greninja, who is slower by 1 point, its move pool is big, from play rough, to sucker punch, to spikes and T spikes for some reason, taunt, thunder punch, you can never be too sure if that kitty is running some tricks, its an actual magician in the lore after all, and while frail and easily forced out by scarfers, booster energy mons and dragapult, none of them want to enter in, so basically the meowster can always do something in every game by the amount of utility and damage

:Slowking: from B+------------------------> A-

Balance is slowly but surely becoming one of the most prominent play styles in the metagame, thanks to the meta settling down, the banning of dangerous and ungodly mons, and tera being a better understood resource, Slowking benefits a lot of these changes due to its natural ability to give safe switch-ins by Chilly Reception or just dying miserably, which is gonna be hard by having not one, but 2 methods of reliable recovery in Slack Off and Regenerator, Future Sight while not as spamable as it is in gen 8 due to all the dark types in the tier, lets mons like Iron Valiant and/or Garganacl go nuts thanks to either insane wall breaking or by insane chip with salt cure, and even it the opponent has covert cloak, it will not go unharmed thanks to FS (unless is a dark type with covert cloak, but I think those a super rare) it loves that Knock Off is less common too, because it now has a good chance to keep boots and keep pivoting out constantly, and its movepool is big with stuff like flamethrower, water moves, ice beam, twave, grass knot, so It's pretty customizable overall
 
That_Dwayneee said:
:gastrodon: D -> C
This is a rather cautionary nom that I'm only making because this thing has a niche of being a guaranteed counter to scarf ghold, but not much of anything else in all honesty. It'll beat greninja not locked into hydro pump I guess, it stonewalls scarf washtom, which isn't very common overall, beats iron moths lacking energy ball though I don't think that mon is doing too hot rn personally, and hatterene I suppose, though it does take an uncomfortable amount of damage from an unboosted psyshock.

It isn't amazing, but it stonewalls scarf gholdengo as long as the bastard doesn't tera, and I think that's a valuable niche, as you can run it with faster ghost types such as dragapult to either wall gholdengo entirely, or scare it out with your own ghost type, as if ghold can break through gastro, it can't outspeed pult.
agreed, and gastrodon getting stealth rock and spikes this generation only serves to strengthen its utility. it losing scald and toxic hurt it really badly but being able to lay hazards and still spread status with yawn if needed is very valuable and helps it force a ton of switches. the lack of grass types in this meta barring meowscarada and tera grass volcarona also really helps it do its job without quickly being forced out, giving it more opportunities to set hazards and the like.

however, gastro unfortunately has to compete with clodsire for its role but it having superior physical bulk and not having weaknesses to types such as ground and ice help it stand out from clod. it also can't have its item removed by pokemon such as gholdengo or great tusk thanks to sticky hold, which is something clod and ting-lu struggle with when switching into gholdengo. it can also run storm drain if it wants to stone wall rotom-W, dondozo, floatzel and quaquaval, or if your team just really needs a water resistance/immunity

overall, i agree with this nom since i think it has a big enough niche to where it can rise a bit higher, especially when a team needs a consistent counter to the likes of gholdengo, garganacl, iron valiant, rotom-W, skeledirge, and so on and so forth. it's definitely got some merit in this meta and its ranking should reflect that

Lobby Eeveee said:
NICHE 2: DEFOGGER

:sv/hydreigon:

Hydreigon is a defogger that can beat Gholdengo. This set is the same as the choice specs set except it has Draco swapped for Defoe and a different item and Tera. It has levitate, so it can withstand many rounds of hazard damage. It can unleash offenses and anything that can withstand it is defog fodder.

Defog is MUCH harder to block than rapid spin and mortal spin, as it has only 1 immunity, so some teams may want to use it.

this is the only reason why i hope transfer moves aren't axed from pokemon games entirely. having such limited hazard removal in a metagame where hazard setters are omnipresent and the best pokemon in the metagame can block all means of removing them makes it very hard to get all those stealth rocks and spikes off your side of the field unless you either court change them onto the other side (cinderace) or deny them from being set entirely (hatterene). if transfer moves are back then we'd have some defoggers who could actually force gholdengo out so hazards can be freely removed, and there's no better example of this than hydreigon. if it does regain defog in the spring then i will be echoing this nom from there on out but as of now, hydreigon is fine where it is
 
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1670357451278.png

Iron jugulis to C+

While lacking power this Mon is able to generate pressure on a lot of teams thanks to it's coverage. Hurricane to threaten great tusk, dark pulse for gholdengo, and earth power to hit things like clodsire and kingambit. I've been using it and with more aggressive positioning this Mon really shines. Honestly, I think it should be higher but I don't think I can justify it being more than c+ as it's in a weird limbo of needing the extra power from choiced but also wanting boots to avoid hazards so it can come in more.
 
Lobby Eeveee said:
:bw/hydreigon:

B- to A-.
This is a drastic change, but I think hydreigon should be in A tier due to having 2 useful niches.

NICHE 1: SPECS WALLBREAKER

:xy/hydreigon:
Running Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse, Flash Cannon and Focus Blast with Tera dark, this set is the bane of balance teams. CLODSIRE gets shredded by Draco meteor spam with unaware ignoring SpA drop. Dark pulse can crush balance teams as it is very spammable. Combine it with Focus Blast, and it has wide coverage, hitting Ting-Lu very hard with fighting coverage and crushing Kingambit. Flash Cannon rips apart many fairy types. This set is stopped by Azu tho.

NICHE 2: DEFOGGER

:sv/hydreigon:

Hydreigon is a defogger that can beat Gholdengo. This set is the same as the choice specs set except it has Draco swapped for Defoe and a different item and Tera. It has levitate, so it can withstand many rounds of hazard damage. It can unleash offenses and anything that can withstand it is defog fodder.

Defog is MUCH harder to block than rapid spin and mortal spin, as it has only 1 immunity, so some teams may want to use it.

Another useful niche Hydreigon has is with Tera Ghost + Levitate, it completely walls DD + Roost + ESpeed + Earthquake Dragonite. It's a handy way of checking Dragonite offensively rather than defensively. You can switch Hydreigon in on predicted Dragon Dances, Tera Ghost as it goes for Extremespeed, and nail it with Draco Meteor. Ghost also allows it to serve as an emergency spinblocker on hazard stack teams. It's a really nice way of shutting Dragonite down without having to run a bulky wall that can slow down momentum.
 
Just got reqs and its due time to make another set of noms:

Rises:

:Kingambit: A+ to S-/S:
I feel like this is a pretty common set of beliefs, but Kingambit is not only one of the deadliest sweepers in the tier, if not the single deadliest, and with Wisp Volcarona and Chain Chomp becoming more common, as well as just other innovation such as Ekiller Dnite w Hurricane, its a lot easier to just wear down Kingambit's checks and make it ready to sweep. It can beat nearly any single mon in the tier by itself thanks to Terastallization and Supreme Overlord, and theres a variety of fantastic items and Tera types that change its counterplay. I personally continue using Tera Flying on a lot of teams, but Tera Fire, Tera Fairy, Tera Dark, and Tera Ghost are still all fantastic types. Lum Berry lets Kingambit beat Skeledirge, Rotom-Wash, and Volcarona 1v1 late game regardless of Tera Type, Heavy-Duty Boots helps it check Pult + Dengo for a large portion of the game, Black Glasses makes it irritatingly hard to switch into, and Air Balloon makes it much more annoying in the Great Tusk matchup. The lack of Focus Blast on Gholdengo recently, as well as more SpDef Garganacls, 2 attack Roost Dnites, and Brave Bird Corviknights also makes it really good in this metagame. Finally, I believe Kingambit is the single best check to Espathra in the game, especially with Tera Fire or Flying. Ultimately, Kingambit feels like the most important pokemon on nearly every team its on, because it compresses so much for your team, being a ghost and dark check, late game sweeper, breaker, revenge killer, and potentially even a rocker if you like rocks on it. Similar to Tusk, it nearly feels like a requirement because its just so good in every single game.

:Volcarona: A to A+:
Yes, Volcarona still has the same checks in Skeledirge, Defensive Dragonite, Toxapex, Tera Fire Kingambit, and Clodsire, but Wow sets are fantastic and can patch up so many defensive holes in a team. Volcarona by itself is able to take on Great Tusk, Kingambit, Dragonite, Garchomp if tera fairy, and more physical attackers. Its really easy to get Volcarona 2 or 3 quiver dances, and is really only stopped by the existence of unaware walls. Incredible pokemon that brings both defensive and offensive utility to a team

:Garchomp: A- to A:
Chain Chomp has been picking up so much steam and for good reason. Being able to break through common defensive cores such Tusk/Dirge/Pex and just being truly difficult to switch into is incredible. Access to Spikes/Stealth Rock means that this mon is an absolute progress machine. This is genuinely my favorite pokemon in the metagame right now, and the last 10 teams I've built have all been revolving around it since its crucial to so many offensive teams.

:Iron Moth: B+ to A-:
Life Orb and Specs sets are fantastic. I think more people are starting to play around with sets using its fantastic movepool, such as LO 4 attacks/3 attacks + morning sun or uturn, specs 4 attacks, and the usual booster sets, but overall Iron Moth feels incredibly difficult in wall in general.

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UR to A-:
A fantastic speed tier, being a water/dark type that can pressure Gholdengo and being able to use the powerful Water/Ice special combo, which nothing in the tier has had since Iron Bundle, Greninja is incredibly good at dismantling commonly existing team structures, especially with a plethora of options such as hazards, Taunt, U-turn, Switcheroo, Grass Knot, Gunk Shot, Extrasensory, etc. The metagame might adapt to Greninja in the future, but as of now, Greninja slotted in incredibly well and is something you always have to be cautious of in the builder. Additionally, since Rain is starting to become more prevalent again, Greninja is even better, able to nuke teams with super fast Specs-Boosted Hydro Pumps.


:Floatzel: and :Pelipper: C+/B- to B:
With the Moths, Great Tusk, and Chien Pao being so dominant, it doesn't feel like a surprise that semi-rain structures are especially good right now. Specs Pelipper and Band Floatzel in particularly are incredibly difficult to switch into, thanks to most teams lacking a real special water-type switch in. Pelipper supporting the monstrous Greninja is another reason to consider it good, and Floatzel, as everyone knows, just kills everything under Rain.

:Haxorus: D to C:
Unaware cores are definitely still strong and popular as ever, and Haxorus is blessed with the ability to shatter them. It has a good speed tier, great power, decent movepool, and access to SD, DD, and Taunt to really mess with common defensive cores. Overall a solid mon, albeit a bit frail and vulnerable to offensive teams.

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UR to D:
I actually got reqs while using a team with Noivern, in particular a set like this:
Set
Noivern @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Defog
- Roost

Noivern has the tools to take things like Greninja and Rotom-Wash, while chunking physical walls for decent damage. Unlike most removal options, Noivern can take on Rotom-Wash decently well, has a good speed tier, can pressure common Amoonguss/Washtom/Tusk cores and Dengo ofc. Not an absolutely amazing mon or anything by any means, but it holds a similar level of value to like Talonflame.






Drops:

:Dondozo: A to A-:
I really have never liked Dondozo all that much, but with the many Great Tusks around, and with Spikestack starting to pick up again, I feel like its easier for most physical attackers to wear down Dondozo throughout a game and exploit its forced Rest turns. It feels like a bullet sponge and doesn't actually help progress the game that often, especially since Amoonguss and Rotom-Wash are so prevalent currently.

Didn't really feel strongly enough about other mons I would consider nomming to drop, but shout out to Iron Treads and Quaquaval for being consistently ass❤, not ranking you down though cuz I suspect i'm not using yall as well as I should be, or not experimenting enough.
 
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